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Discussion about Europe hierarchy (that is, why some countries are in some regions) should take place in Talk:Europe/Hierarchy.

Archived discussions

Hot chocolate "for kids" or not?[edit]

Given that an IP address seems to disagree with the pre-existing text calling (certain kinds of) hot chocolate a "drink for kids", I think we should have this debate here. imho the more sweet ones made with pre-mixed "kaba" powder are considered for kids whereas more bitter ones are not. Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:27, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Sorry for posting a similar thread below without seeing this first. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:08, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Milk chocolate in Europe[edit]

It's called "kinder Schokolade" in Germany and is to my understanding really considered to be for children who find the full taste of real dark chocolate as yet too strong. Similarly, in Italy, I recall the chocolate in hot cocoa being dark, though maybe not as bitter as in Germany. I don't really understand this edit, which states that "hot chocolate is popular with both adults and children", a fact not under dispute. Is milk chocolate generally eaten by adults in Europe? Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:27, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Ikan, I started a very similar topic above. Mind if we combine the two? Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:50, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
(edit conflict) In Britain, Ireland and France it is eaten by adults. And Belgian / Swiss chocolate boxes available everywhere and aimed at adults usually have a mix of milk and dark flavours. For other countries I'm not so sure, but I know there are popular *dark* chocolate wafer biscuits aimed at children in countries like Poland and Slovakia. So milk=children, dark=adults is certainly a false binary for the continent as a whole. But if it's true in certain countries, I wouldn't know. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:00, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
In Finland and elsewhere in the Nordic countries milk chocolate is (for eating) regarded as normal chocolate, and dark chocolate with proportionally more cocoa regarded as something more exclusive/more expensive. Hot chocolate is in general drunk with milk and sugar, and I'd say it's more of a children's beverage — adults do drink it but generally prefer coffee or tea as their hot drink of choice. ϒψιλον (talk) 21:42, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
OK, so that section should be edited accordingly, to take into account Europe's diversity. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:11, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Do some visitors assume that all Europeans are white?[edit]

It has been said that visitors to Europe make the assumption that European countries are racially homogenous, and that all non-white people are visitors or recent immigrants. In fact, many European countries have had visible minorities for generations, and in some cases since time immemorial. This could lead to embarrassement. Is this an issue to bring up in the Europe#Respect section? Or is it WV:OBVIOUS? /Yvwv (talk) 15:12, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

I started Respect#Racial and national identity for generalized information. /Yvwv (talk) 15:16, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
Apparently there were more black people (by percentage) in Roman Eboacorum than in modern day York Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:57, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
I have never heard of this assumption before, though that's not to say it doesn't exist, and it's not like I've met a bunch of tourists from other continents. It might be good to get the opinions of non-Europeans - as in, based on the people around them, does that attitude exist? - as again I suspect that few or no Wikivoyagers will have such a prejudice.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:38, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
I haven't consciously noticed this assumption before, myself, but if it does exist I would guess it's an assumption that some less educated people who have a stereotypical picture of Europeans. I think some of the less educated, less traveled, Americans have a very stereotypical view of Europe, usually from the knowledge of, say, London and Paris. However, I would hope that the more educated people, in the U.S. and elsewhere, know better, and since we quite probably have an educated audience, it is probably unnecessary to include such information. But, there is no harm in mentioning it, IMO.
Another reason why people in the U.S. may hold that assumption is that the U.S. is so diverse compared to most countries, and when compared to the U.S., Europe may seem very white. It's like if, just make a guess, 70% of America is white compared to 90-95% of Europe being white (although that is probably a high estimate). But even 95% is not the same as 100%. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:50, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
I think the assumption does exist. If it's likely to cause offense in some way, it's probably worth including in the article. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:44, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
I suppose a Swede or Frenchman could be offended by being treated as an immigrant or tourist in their own country. There is a warning to that effect in Sweden#Respect (although this aspect is covered only implicitly). --LPfi (talk) 06:40, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
Good point. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:32, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
This summer, a famous African-American rapper was detained in Sweden, suspected for a crime. A late-night comedy show in the United States made a feature of the case, where they said that the rapper wouldn't easily escape in Sweden since he would stand out by being black. Apparently, the prejudice of an all-white Europe seems to survive in the United States. /Yvwv (talk) 15:51, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
It very much depends on where in Europe you travel to; western or eastern Europe and city or countryside. Places like London or Paris, mentioned earlier, are at least as diverse as the United States, and on the other extreme, on the countryside in the former Eastern Bloc, there are very few non-white persons. Ypsilon (talk) 16:29, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Last dictatorship?[edit]

Belarus may be unique, but it's not unique in being a European dictatorship. Russia is clearly also a dictatorship, as its elections are a farce and its government and covert agents have often murdered dissidents at home and abroad, and Transnistria, which should be enumerated among the Balkan countries (I'll add it unless someone wants to argue why not), is also a dictatorship. There are at least a couple of other European countries that have rather authoritarian governments and systems; Hungary and Poland come to mind, though there's been a lot of push-back from Polish citizens demonstrating in the streets. So should we strike out that description, and if so, what should we substitute for it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:12, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Yes, replace it. What is there about Belarus that's appealing to travellers? Surely we can come up with a better selling point than the fact that it's a dictatorship. —Granger (talk · contribs) 07:17, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
I have no idea what's appealing about Belarus. It could be sold as the largest remaining Soviet-style country or something, because even that isn't unique when we consider Transnistria. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:07, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
Anyone have any more thoughts about this? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:06, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
Perhaps it could be changed to '...has been described as "Europe's last remaining dictatorship"' (it looks like it's a quote) if it needs to be there, but I'd also suggest take it out. Transnistria's weird, you don't really get the whole "Soviet feel" which some travellers are looking for ...Belarus seems more of a working Soviet microcosm (culturally, politically). I suspect its inaccessibility is also part of the appeal for western travellers. Perhaps replace it with something along those linesPresumingEb (talk) 07:30, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
How inaccessible is it? Don't they encourage tourism? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:26, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
Maybe they're encouraging it but it's still quite closed... coming from former soviet states it's easy but for a lot of Europeans at least, I know the visa's a headache compared to other countries in the region

-Eben PresumingEb (talk) 09:35, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

OK, so how about "Belarus, sometimes called 'Europe's last dictatorship', is the largest remaining Soviet-style country in the world"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:14, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
Sounds good PresumingEb (talk) 11:23, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
OK, I'll put that in. Of course, if anyone can improve it, I'd encourage them to do so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:20, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

20 beautiful European cities with hardly any tourists[edit]

Possibly some inspiration for future European OtBPs? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:53, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Funny, I notice Sarajevo on the list. Aren't we just featuring that city either now or soon? Yes, it looks like an interesting list to use. Our articles must be up to guide status, of course, though. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:54, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

"Best restaurant"[edit]

In light of this shouldn't we cite who gave that designation? Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:08, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes. I could come up with my own list, but that doesn't mean anyone should care about my choices. Ground Zero (talk) 11:38, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Yes, cited in text. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:40, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
I'd say just delete the claim. Are the people compiling the list at all credible? I have no reason to think so. Pashley (talk) 12:47, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
I agree with the anonymous contributor. There is occasionally the appropriate article where "the best restaurant is..." is actually helpful to the reader, but for the whole world, even the most experienced traveler/critic would have a difficult task to name the "best" restaurant. This word should be limited to low-level destination articles where there is a clear winner, and even then it's controversial to make these kinds of claims because it could be seen as an unfair judgment upon other quality restaurants. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 12:50, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
We do have some similar stuff, like this at Ninoy_Aquino_International_Airport#Understand:
Terminal 1 was judged the world's worst airport terminal by the "Sleeping in Airports" website (although some say the brouhaha over the terminal was a result of Filipinos overhyping everything), and passenger opinion of NAIA as a whole is poor, from Filipinos and foreigners. In August 2013, an on-line survey by a hotel booking company rated NAIA as the worst airport in Asia, below airports in Vientiane, Yangon and Phnom Penh and a very long way behind the best, Singapore.
I'd say that might be toned down, but should be kept. Pashley (talk) 13:08, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
I agree, but there are far fewer airports around the world than restaurants. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:16, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

From W:Noma (restaurant):

These things change all the time and are subjective to each publication. To me, it seems extreme to mention any one restaurant at the continental level.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:21, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I just saw this, but I put the link to the guide which gave them that designation. They're actually pretty well-established and second only to the Michelin Guide when it comes to authority. Of course, it's subjective and I often don't agree with a lot of their rankings (I've had bad meals at restaurants that were featured in both with 3 Michelin stars, and conversely, I've had amazing meals at cheap local street food stalls), but I think it passes the notability test to warrant a mention. The dog2 (talk) 19:44, 26 May 2020 (UTC)