Talk:Eastern Europe

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This article is based on an article formerly named East Slavic nations. See Talk:East Slavic nations for the associated discussion.

continentalsectiongude[edit]

The {{continentalsectionguide}} template contains magic RDF code defining Eastern Europe as a "continental section" in our geographical hierarchy. Please discuss here before deleting it. --(WT-en) Evan 14:37, 25 June 2007 (EDT)

Restored article[edit]

I have restored the Eastern Europe article and removed the countries that now belong to other WV regions: Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Romania, Bulgaria and Moldova. Now, a huge amount of expansion is needed for this article to be linked to other regions. --Soumya-8974 (he) (talkcontribs) 07:57, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Soumya, have you got the consensus? Some of them belong in the Baltic states, not eastern europe. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:03, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
I don't understand why you restored this after 12 years. During the Cold War, "Eastern Europe" encompassed the entire Warsaw Pact minus the Soviet Union. The term was used that way constantly in the U.S. media, at any rate. And nowadays, we have repeatedly had users who've claimed that the former Soviet Caucasus nations are Eastern European. What are your plans for this article, and why didn't you discuss restoring it at Talk:Europe before taking unilateral action? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:08, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
Soumya, if you don't mind. Let me bring you a point on why you were banned on en.wikipedia. Because of w:WP:CIR and doing controversial actions. You should try and avoid making the same mistake here again. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:13, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
And I have unrestored the article. Engage in dialogue and cease your editing for now. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:09, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
I agree with Ikan Kekek here; certainly he's correct about usage during the Cold War. Pashley (talk) 11:49, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Eastern Europe[edit]

Swept in from the pub

Should it get its own article, and the countries that are considered as Eastern Europe be part of Eastern Europe, but also be part of the Baltic states. I rarely use the term eastern europe and mostly just say "The Baltic States" or simply "The Baltics". But Soumya-8974 has gone and unilaterally made the change with no consensus. Pashley and I have had problems with him, with disambiguations and redirects. But this message is really for, is whether Eastern Europe have its own article? I prefer it to be part of the Baltic states, but I would like to hear the opinions of others. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:09, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Also, there's a discussion going on at Talk:Eastern Europe. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:23, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

If we are to have an article about Eastern Europe, we will have to discuss the diverse possible meanings of the term, as it's quite ambiguous. That said, Europe#Regions does have a currently unlinked "Eastern Europe" region at the end, which does not include the Baltic states. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:57, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
There is a Baltic states article. I get Ukraine, but I had always thought that Belarus was also part of the Baltics. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 09:01, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
It is not and I don't think it ever has been. Note that it has no Baltic coastline. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:50, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
Eastern Europe only has 3 countries (and two disputed territories) on our map. I don't think there is any value in making that into an article. It's like making France and Monaco an article. It's pointless. If the talk is about expanding "Eastern Europe" to make it encompass all of the former bloc, I don't think that's necessary but those who know more about Europe can decide. I'm generally against the idea of discussions and decision-making formed around appeasing trolls and users who come to cause trouble and disregard policies which this seems to have stemmed from. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 10:41, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
Also, for anyone that doesn't know, Soumya-8974 is banned on the English Wikipedia for doing controversial things, just like what they did today on Eastern Europe. (And for anyone who's concerned, this is not outing) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:44, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
I agree that someone who wants to restore the Eastern Europe article has to define the scope and answer the concerns that made us get rid of it. On a side note: the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth stretched through Belarus and Ukraine from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea. I don't think, though that that commonwealth should be a basis of what we call Baltic countries, East Europe, or otherwise of our hierarchy. –LPfi (talk) 11:55, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
I agree with you. The term is highly ambiguous, and I've heard people even say Turkey and Greece is Eastern Europe (although mostly recognized as Mediterranean countries rather than Eastern Europe, but there's still the minority.) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:59, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
I think that "Eastern Europe" covers what used to be behind the Iron Curtain. That was a widely understood meaning when I visited Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary etc in the 90s. Although Cold War Europe covers both east and west, Eastern Europe could be redirect to it. AlasdairW (talk) 22:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
I don't think I'd support such a redirect, as we wouldn't redirect Western Europe to it, right? But we should if we're being evenhanded. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
Also Soumya-8974, can you explain what did Eastern Europe means to you? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 23:14, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

East Slavic nations talk page[edit]

See Talk:East Slavic nations for previous discussion.

Issues[edit]

First, here's the current region list plus one followup sentence, from the article:

  Belarus
Europe's last dictatorship.
  Crimea
A peninsula in the Black Sea, since 2014 de facto part of Russia.
  Russia
The world's largest country, stretching from the Baltic Sea to the Pacific Ocean.
  Transnistria
An unrecognized but de facto independent country between Moldova and Ukraine.
  Ukraine
Europe's most fertile soil, with mighty rivers.

Since 2014, the Donetsk People's Republic and Luhansk People's Republic are self-proclaimed unrecognized entities in eastern Ukraine with some degree of functional independence.

Keeping in mind that Wikivoyage recognizes all reasonably stable realities per Wikivoyage:Be fair#Political disputes:

(1) Crimea is part of Russia, period, and is properly covered as such in the Russia article.

(2) Transnistria is covered in Balkans. Is there an important reason to move it?

(3) The Donetsk People's Republic and Luhansk People's Republic are realities on the ground, and we need to cover them as independent countries, the same way we cover Abkhazia and Somaliland, not to mention Kosovo or Taiwan.

Second, because we are using the ambiguous term "Eastern Europe", which could confuse travelers and will engender complaints from users who give the term a different meaning, I think that we need to address this in "Understand" by stating that "Eastern Europe" was widely used in the West to mean all Warsaw Pact countries other than the Soviet Union during the Cold War, and that quite a few Caucasians from countries such as Armenia and Georgia consider their region to be in Eastern Europe, but that we've chosen to use it to refer to several former Soviet countries which are diverse but mainly Slavic and have important geographic, cultural and historical commonalities, though they've also been scarred by conflict, or something like that.

Third, I don't believe that Russian was the only official language of the Soviet Union. Can someone prove that? Otherwise, we should delete that statement.

Fourth, if we're going to use Cyrillic spellings for the names of cities, we should use Russian before Ukrainian for Odessa, which is a largely Russian-speaking city. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:18, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

One more: Ukrainian cuisine is not the same as Russian cuisine, so stating that "Russian cuisine is the dominant culinary tradition here" is insufficient and strikes me as kind of insulting to Ukrainians. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:20, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
Oh, and this shouldn't be an extra-region. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:20, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
I agree with all of Ikan's concerns, except perhaps extra-region which depends on how we define the main regions for Europe; some choices there would reduce this to an extra-hierarchical region.
This needs to be either fairly extensively rewritten or just deleted. I might tackle the rewrite eventually, but likely not soon. Pashley (talk) 01:31, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
Yes I did a partial rewrite that I think solves most of the issues. That needs comment & the article needs quite a bit more work. Pashley (talk) 02:57, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
I appreciate your work, but Russian is the primary language in Transnistria, and I'm not sure why it's important to include information about the languages and religions of countries not covered in this article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:25, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
You're right, I took most of it out. Pashley (talk) 07:08, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
Thanks, I like it better now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:10, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
However, I made this edit, because I think there are at least 3 definitions of Eastern Europe other than the one we've defined: (1) the one that was standard in the U.S., which meant the Warsaw Pact minus the U.S.S.R.; (2) loosely including Yugoslavia and Albania because both were Communist, too; (3) including any of 3 groups of former Soviet republics and breakaway countries (the Caucasian republics, the Baltic states, Moldova and Transnistria). If you can make better sense out of this than I did, please go ahead, but I think the distinctions are needed. Also, I still think the breakaway regions of Ukraine should be treated as independent countries, period, with their own listings and colors. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:30, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
Russian was not the official language of the USSR. See w:Languages of the Soviet Union. Edited accordingly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:30, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Name again[edit]

Most of Russia's territory is in Asia. Shall we rename this region "Eastern Europe and Russia"? If not, why not? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:22, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

That's a good proposal, though I am against the name Eastern Europe in the first place, because sometimes South Eastern Europe is also considered to be part of Eastern Europe as well. And as Soumya already mentioned above, he considers the Baltic States to be part of Eastern Europe as well. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:38, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
Does my new text at Eastern_Europe#Understand nullify your objection? Pashley (talk) 03:41, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
:) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 04:06, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
An option would be to move most of this article to some other title (but what?) & turn Eastern Europe into a disambig page. I've just written most of what the dab page would need (at Eastern_Europe#Understand); just add text pointing the renamed article & linking to its three countries. Pashley (talk) 06:56, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Odd inclusions[edit]

Why are Lake Baikal and Kamchatka listed here? Both are in Russia, but neither is anywhere near Europe.

I'd delete both, but am asking first. Pashley (talk) 05:50, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

We include all of Russia as a country in Eastern Europe, but do we restrict text and listings here to the European part? I suppose so. Asian Russia is listed as a region of Asia and Lake Baikal is listed in Asia#Other destinations, so it seems there is no reason to include specifics here. A note on the confusion would be good. –LPfi (talk) 06:23, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
I didn't realize Asian Russia had been added to the coverage in the Asia article. In that case, I agree with covering only the European part in this article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:28, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
I think it is common sense that the Asian bits of Russia aren't meant to be here, and it only takes two seconds to realize that. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:28, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
Not really, if they weren't covered in Asia, which as I recall they didn't use to be. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:32, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Russian North Caucasus[edit]

Why should we mention that x or y definition of "Eastern Europe" could include this area, when we are including the entire European area of Russia in our definition, anyway? I'd delete the mention of this region from "Understand". Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:25, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I wondered the same, but as the list is about "Caucasus", not mentioning the Russian part might be confusing. I now put it in parenthetically and removed the bullet. –LPfi (talk) 08:09, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
That works. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:23, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Transnistria[edit]

While the scope of this article is still being worked out, I would prefer to see Transnistria as part of this region. While Transnistria is claimed by Moldova (which is part of the Balkans in our geographic hierarchy), it is functionally independent, associated with Russia, and has a distinct post-Soviet culture. /Yvwv (talk) 08:26, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

In that case, we would need to remove it from Balkans. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:33, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Transnistria is still shown on most maps as being part of Moldova. The post offices sell Moldovan stamps since Transnistria is not part of the Universal Postal Union, graduates of the University of Tiraspol go to Chisinau to get their diplomas stamped so they will be recognized elsewhere, Transnistrians carry Moldovan passports (although I think they are now eligible for Russian passports), and travellers arriving by land will mostly come from Moldova (when I visited a couple of years ago, that is, although I understand the Ukrainian border is easier than it used to be).
I don't think we should be fussing over this politically contentious issue. This is a travel guide, and the current structure works fine. Ground Zero (talk) 22:31, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Slavic languages[edit]

To clarify the talk section. The Slavic language family has three sub-groups: West Slavic (Polish, Czech, Slovak, etc), South Slavic (Serbian, Bulgarian, etc), and East Slavic (Russian, Belarussian, Ukrainian and Rusyn). The East Slavic languages have some mutual intelligibility, and the majority languages and de facto national languages in the three countries described in this article. That said, the minority languages also deserve to be mentioned. /Yvwv (talk) 11:29, 27 July 2021 (UTC)