Talk:Lisbon

ToDo

Please help us complete the article if you know any of the following:

• Via Verde: how can a traveler become a subcriber? Is it practically feasible for a foreign tourist--either for a rented car or for a personal car brought from abroad? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 14:24, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
• The Gulbenkian Museum: is the museum gardens ("worth a visit in and of themselves") open for everyone, without a museum admission fee? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 14:48, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

If you mean the largish park all around it, then yes, it's a popular picnic spot, and known for having little hidden corners where young people make out ;)

--Jorge.manuel (talk) 01:57, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

• GetAround:7 Colinas: is it possible to return a used card, and get back a 0.50EUR "deposit"? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 15:17, 18 October 2009 (EDT)

No, sorry. It's not a deposit, it pays for the actual card materials. You can try selling it to someone, but honestly, if 50 cents is a lot to you...

--Jorge.manuel (talk) 01:57, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

• GetAround:Finding your way with Carris map ("...try to locate the nearest Carris bus or tram stop. Most of these stops (not all) have a very good map of the city...") : a photo of such a map would definitely help to understand what kind of map is meant here, how does it look and where exactly on a transit stop to look for it. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 15:24, 18 October 2009 (EDT)

I have no idea what you're talking about, the map is very schematic and not at all informative for anything other than taking a bus. Get your maps here: http://www.carris.pt/en/network-map/

--Jorge.manuel (talk) 01:57, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

• Why Lisbon can't be featured as Destination of the month (per (WT-en) Burmesedays 19:55, 14 December 2009 (EST)):
  • Understand section is thin. Certainly needs a history sub-section and generally to tell us much more about the city.
  • Do section is tiny - there must be more - theatres, cinemas, sport?
  • Drink only has 3 listings.
  • Get out is full of red links.

Gambling Centre

"Europe's gambling centre" - says who? yes, there are two big casinos, but since when does that make any city a "gambling centre" - where's the source of that?

OK, let's be honest: a list of related readings containing 30 books with synopses is a bit too long for a humble travel guide, isn't it? (WT-en) Rmx 18:19, 16 Jan 2006 (EST)

On a second look, I've noticed that most of it is copyrighted stuff from publishers, online stores and Wikipedia. Worse yet: it's already been copied by other sites on account of WikiTravel's Creative Commons license! I'm deleting the whole list right away. (WT-en) Rmx 18:28, 16 Jan 2006 (EST)

Get Around

Corrected the info regarding the 7 Colinas bus/subway ticket. It might need some english/pricing corrections. (WT-en) cael 15:24, 28 March 2007 (EDT)

Removed external links

Some useful links were placed on the article but we don't use this section any more. Please feel free to re-insert them in the article's text where relevant or keep them on this page.

Photography

• Lisbon Photos a collection of Photos, showing Lisbon as it is to visitors.
• Travel to Lisbon Picture Gallery of Lisbon and surrounding area.
• A few pictures of Lisbon available under Creative Commons
• Lisbon Photo Gallery 78 pictures of the main sights in Lisbon
• Photos from Lisbon Hundreds of Lisbon's photos

Travel guides

• Interactive map of Lisbon
• Lisbon Tourist Guide and Information
• Lisbon Pages
• Lisbon
• Photoblog from Portugal Lisbon by eyes of foreigner

-- (WT-en) Ricardo (Rmx) 08:20, 5 April 2006 (EDT)

Article status

Today an anonymous user changed the article status from outline to guide. The Lisbon article is far from being considered a complete guide. I thought about rating it as usable instead, but even the sleep and eat sections are still far from complete, so I guess we will have to stick to outline status for a while. -- (WT-en) Ricardo (Rmx) 16:21, 20 November 2006 (EST)

Reply: It just seemed odd to me that such a lengthy, detailed article would retain "outline" status. Granted, the "Eat" and "Sleep" sections need work; but they do contain enough information to get a traveler headed in the right direction. The rest of the article is really quite detailed, and more than enough for a competent traveler to make do with. Perhaps "Guide" was a bit much, but this is definitely a usable article. 20 Nov. 16:31.

Do a little Geography homework?

Changed the parenthetical under "Stay Safe" that decided Algarve was the far northern coast of Portugal and the hub for Moroccan hash importing. Algarve is to the south. I don't personally know about the hash import/export business, so I won't say anything else about where pot comes or goes out of the country.

Subtropical climate

Come on, stop with that crazy idea of subtropical climate. Lisbon is a bit northwards than Athens, San Francisco, or Toquio. It's on a higher latitude (farther away from the tropics) than Melbourne, Santiago del Chile or Buenos Aires. It is indeed warm in the summer. True that it only falls snow on extreme rare occasions - it never snows in San Francisco either -but it's not warm all year round. The summer can be hot, but it's often cooler than in central Europe due to the Atlantic winds.

Allow me to quantify "rare" as in, the last two snowfalls were 50 years apart.

--Jorge.manuel (talk) 02:10, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Also, it's not the Gulf Stream that heats Lisbon. The Golf Stream runs from South to North along the North American coast, on the other side of the Atlantic (loool). Lisbon, being on the east side of the Atlantic gets a cold stream, which after leaving Europe and entering Africa is called the Canary Current. This cold stream is normal on west coast of continents and it passes through the ocean coast of Mediterranean climate regions.

Do you want Gulf Stream? Go to Florida, the Carolinas, Virginia.

—The preceding comment was added by 62.28.51.244 (talk • contribs)

It's not hard to get your facts straight: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Golfstream.jpg --Jorge.manuel (talk) 02:10, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Your words imply that this is an ongoing concern rather than a one-time error that someone made in the past. This is a wiki; make the changes you think are necessary. (WT-en) LtPowers 13:42, 6 February 2012 (EST)

Driving Lisbon

Should probably have some warning on driving here. The city is the absolute worst I've been through in Iberia. The roads are much wider though than Sevilla, and the drivers not nearly as aggresive, but lane markings are missing, traffic lights are non-exising in for instance Belem, trams drive on the regular road, signs with directions are often wrong and usually missing, parking is ridicolous expensive, and it is pracically impossible to get to Lisbon without using a toll-road. Stay away from Lisbon if you are driving through Portugal or Iberia in general. 85.235.250.110 05:41, 18 July 2007 (EDT)

As a local, I second that. I always mention that to tourists: don't do it. That's for insiders only.

Why not putting things the other way around? Come to Lisbon but leave the car away! —The preceding comment was added by 62.28.51.244 (talk • contribs)

Stay Safe

As you can see in the work from Gergely Hideg & Robert Manchin (EUICS Consortium) Environment and Safety in European Capitals, Lisbon is one of the capitals in Europe which has less crime. I find the terms used in this section exaggerated. Although I am not editing the article on account of not being registered on the site, I would advise someone to do it. —The preceding comment was added by 213.22.39.30 (talk • contribs) .

Hi! Just so you know, you don't have to be registered; we'd love it if you went ahead and edited the article. We'd also love it if you registered an account, but it's not necessary. (WT-en) LtPowers 19:59, 1 September 2008 (EDT)

I have edited the Stay Safe page and added some more info. I also registered in wikivoyage... let's see where this site can go :) (WT-en) Diogo Bruno 17:07, 19 September 2008 (GMT)

That is true, but it is also true that there has recently been a rise in violent crime by armed gangs too. It doesn't show in statistics yet, and most possibly it won't affect Lisbon's status, but nevertheless it's ongoing -- let's just see where it ends up.

A little cleaning and plunging.

I am working on getting something written the hotels that only have addresses. I am pulling for customer reviews from many hostel booking websites - not copy/paste but using them for real information about the place. I am really interested in Lisbon it has been on my wish list of places to go for a while so I though this would be a fun way to encourage myself to get there.

Also I am doing a bit of cleaning - making all the phone numbers uniform I am trying to use the +351 (21) xxx-xxx formate, because it is the one I see the most often on website. (WT-en) Trew 18:24, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

Good Morning, At it again. I noticed that Lisbon Calling Hostel is listed under two different neighborhoods, I am going to try to figure out which it is really in and delete the duplicate(WT-en) Trew 14:38, 17 October 2008 (EDT).

Again cleaning. Was looking for information about Coimbra e Madrid and found a few reviews saying it has bed -bugs and is not clean. I am going to delete it because that doesn't sound like a place I want to send wikivoyageers.(WT-en) Trew 14:30, 20 November 2008 (EST)

Fundação Arpad Szenes / Vieira da Silva

There is a listing for this in the see or do section. I am trying to find more information on it but am coming up short mostly because I can't read Portages. I think it is a festival or a museum but can't get farther than that. Can someone help fill in this. Thanks (WT-en) Trew 13:32, 16 October 2008 (EDT)Trew

Done! (WT-en) Texugo 02:24, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

Restauradores Hotel?

I have search high and low for information about Restauradores, Praça dos Restauradores, 13, and have come up dry. I have found some things that at the location but nothing much about a hotel in that area. Does anyone know about this place or is it a phantom? Can it be deleted?(WT-en) Trew 14:19, 20 November 2008 (EST)

You mean this one? http://www.hotelavenidapalace.pt/hotel-overview.html

--Jorge.manuel (talk) 02:17, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

views from Santa Justa's Elevator

I removed this piece from description for "Santa Justa's Elevator", as it looks like an overstatement from my experience:

It offers some of the best views of the city.

Clearly any viewpoint can easily compete with it. Well, views are good but not any close to best. Maybe we can be more descriptive here to get a better understanding of what to expect? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 14:56, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

shopping: streets and districts to recommend?

Currently we have a very small piece of advice on "where to go for shopping" :

From Praça do Comércio (aka Terreiro do Paço) to the Restauradores, the Baixa is the old shopping district in the city. It includes pedestrian Rua Augusta which has the most boring and mass-visitor tourist stores, and several European chain clothing stores like Zara, H&M, Campers.

I clearly won't recommend for those seeking anything special beyond ubiquitos mass-market chain stores to go to Baixa. But after a single several-days visit I can only recommend a Chiado for some independent shops and informal brands like Crumpler.

Can someone come up with more recommendations per shopping category? Independent fashion designers (mainstream and alternative)? More places for informal brands like Crumpler? Good selection of designer eyewear? Recommended shops for buying fado or other local music? Best places to shop for porcelain? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 16:11, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

intro for Eat

I removed the following piece from #Eat:

Eating out is deliciously bewildering in Lisbon and with some of the best-value cafes and restaurants in Europe, it's a great way to sample a smorgasboard of Portugese treats.

What did this mean to say? My English is not perfect, however:

• deliciously bewildering -- what does it mean in this context? Surprisingly good? Surprising but still leaves a mix feeling? Somethig else? What does it mean practically for an average traveler?
• a great way to sample a smorgasboard of Portugese treats: is smorgasboard used literally here? If so, it's misleading; if it's metaphorical--could we state the same idea with simpler words?

Overall, what is the main idea we want to give with this piece? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 16:20, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

removed listings

Just for information: on a separate page (Lisbon/Wikivoyage:Removed listings) I saved listings that are legitimate an in line with policy, but removed for subjective reasons:

• Pap'Açorda removed for "negative reviews" ()
• A Confraria for "don't list non-outstanding restaurants that are part of hotels which are already listed" ()

I saved them in that page for the case if I was wrong with my subjective conclusions, and they should be restored instead. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 12:35, 23 October 2009 (EDT)

Bairro Alto

• Pap'Açorda, Rua da Atalaia, 57-59, ☏ +352 21 346 4811. Lunch:until 3pm. Dinner: from 8pm. Food is good but not really sophisticated; awful service. Yet another co-owner of Bico do Sapato (there are four) is Fernando Fernandes. A restaurateur with his finger firmly on Lisbon's pulse, he also owns this place, opened in 1981 and it has been full ever since. Unlike its fabulous half-sister, Pap'Açorda offers a modest check, and it reverses the ratio of great food vs. show-off quotient. This is all about real. If you want to try (almost) unreconstructed Portuguese dishes, here's your place—and it's handily located in this month's up-and-coming-back neighborhood, beautiful Bairro Alto. Since the restaurant is named after Açorda Real, a lobster and shrimp dish, it stands to reason that this is a good thing to order. Mains 19.50-25EUR.. 

Santos (10 minutes from downtown)

• A Confraria, Rua das Janelas Verdes, 32, 1200-691 Lisboa (Near Ancient Art Museum), ☏ +351 213 962 435. Located on the ground floor of the York House Lisbon (a 17th century convent) with a view over the city garden terrace, classic decoration. Open every day for lunch and dinner. Seasonal menu based on Portuguese cuisine with an inpired twist of the chef! Delicious... try it! 

Top 10 places to shop in the world

Is that serious?

... makes Chiado, together with Avenida da Liberdade, one of the Top 10 places to shop in the world.

Is there any (un)official rating of top 10 places to shop? I mean, does it seriously compete even in world brands like listed in that paragraph? (and I can't say it's very competitive in breadth of local brands and designers--which is another point of view on what's one of the top places to shop should boast) --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 17:49, 17 November 2009 (EST)

Vacation Rental Agencies?

A few days ago, the Vacation Rental section (under the name "Apartments") was available, but now it was removed. I have tried to create it, but says the info I want to add was blocked by the filter spam. I suppose this section would improve Lisbon article. It is not possible to add the section again? —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Ttl (talk • contribs)

Hi Raul! As already explained on (WT-en) user page our Apartment listing doesn't allow your listing and your touty entries have been reverted. As you didn't followed our guidelines your business has been blacklisted due to your edit warring and don't tout policy. The section will stay permanently deleted as i is not in line with our policies. (WT-en) jan 05:53, 14 June 2010 (EDT)

Hello! Thank you for the answer! Please let me insist a little bit more, based on the guidelines of Apartment listing. Regarding the several points: 1. I am trying to get the consensus to allow the page. 2. The separate sub-section is not a problem at all. 3. We do have a local address with a phone number that specifies the physical address at the destination for picking up the keys, managing the property and/or resolving rental issues. We also have a 24 hour phone, so the guests can contact the agency at anytime. Our address is shown in our website (contact area). 4. Our apartments are available for a week rental or even less. At the moment, in Lisbon, there are several agencies of this site. I really think this is an additional value to the page. It is cheaper than a hotel for the travelers and allows travelers to live in typical neighborhoods. I think my arguments meet the points referenced.—The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Ttl (talk • contribs)

Hi Raul, i'm opposing the rental apartment agencies and other regular users as well. The main reason is that Lisbon offers an excellent range of hotels on all price levels and there is no added value of rental apartments the agents promise(except from revenues for the agencies). Most agencies actually are dubious and entered from their owners and not the travellers. Users of Wikivoyage trust us because Project:The traveller comes first and not the business owner. (WT-en) jan 07:07, 15 June 2010 (EDT)

Hello! I understand that the traveller comes first and that is why he should have the chance to choose. All over the web you can find several good reviews about these kind of companies. Some agencies might be dubious, but of course some others don't! Probably I cannot say the company I work for (you know this), but if you look you will find a lot of good information about us. We provide not only apartments, but many other services. I do not understand why should the traveller be deprived from a good service. Of course the agencies get revenues, but the hotels don’t?

Hello again, I would like to leave here some comments that show how good vacation rentals can be to the travellers. Please find them here: Bottom Line My Little Travel Bug TripAdvisor If you go inside TripAdvisor you can use the application "Compare and Save" and see how much travellers can save if they choose an apartment instead an Hotel.

Per the apartment guidelines I'd like to see some information that apartment listings are a common form of lodging for visitors to Lisbon. In places like Lake Tahoe I'd suspect that 10-20% of travelers use cabin rentals for lodging, but in a city like Lisbon I'd suspect that only a tiny percent use apartment rentals. If that's wrong then listing such accommodation might make sense, but otherwise I think we're just opening our guide to tout-ish advertising for a niche lodging option. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 11:32, 17 June 2010 (EDT)

Hello Ryan, Absolutely. I have been looking around and in our National Statistics Institute is possible to find a report about accommodation types that are more often used. Report It is in Portuguese, but on the 2nd page (bottom right) you can see a table that I am sure you will understand. You can see here that Touristic Apartments (Apartamentos Turísticos) are an imporant type of accommodation.

Raul, the report is about the whole of Portugal and not Lisbon specific. I only have a very limited understanding of Portugese but i'm pretty sure that Lisbon is not the Portugese average. I know that rented aparments are a standard form at the Algarve but that can't be true for the capital. I have visited Lisbon (and friends of mine are more often their) and the regular accomodation are hotels. Statistics are always depending on interpretation but in this case it means nothing for the concrete case of Lisbon. (WT-en) jan 05:51, 20 June 2010 (EDT)

Hello again, Now I have something just about Lisbon: Turismo de Portugal. I would say that the first 2 pages are the most important. In page 1 you can see the number of nights and on the second page you can find the comparison (in percentage) between 2008 and 2009. On the other you will find share markets and 2008 values.

Hi Raul, just 1.1% market share for apartments while hotels have a whopping 82.5% share. I think this terrific statistic states that apartments are totally irrelavant in Lisbon. Thank you very much for clarifing that! (WT-en) jan 07:52, 22 June 2010 (EDT)

Hi jan, that is your way to see things. Based on the info provided by Turismo de Portugal, I can also see that between 2008 and 2009 there was a growth of 76% in the Apartments category! It is also important to mention that all the others categories (Hotels included, of course) had negative results. I am just trying to show that the importance of self-catering apartments is increasing fast! In 2009 we received around 10.000 guests. Of course this is low compared to hotels, but 10.000 is not a relevant number?

Hi Raul, i quote our policy: The only exception to this rule is for locations where rental properties are a common form of travel accommodation As you proved that apartments are not a common form it can't be part of the article. That is very clear. Second, 10.000 compared to several millions at hotel means that they are totally irrelevant. A high growth rate only shows that it is an immature market. I dare to say, here my involvement ends because facts are obvious. (WT-en) jan 06:10, 24 June 2010 (EDT)

Hello jan, Absolutely obvious..you can interpret the info as you want and you prefer the non-positive side. Anyway, you position is more than clear regarding the Vacation Rental agencies. Maybe in the future we will be able to appear. 10.000 is the number of our company. There are more than 30 companies of this type here in Lisbon, but not enough it seems. Thanks anyway jan. I believe that you try to do a good work here.

Additional info regarding Lisbon: Taxi drivers charge a fixed rate of 1.60€ if you have luggage with you. They do not charge 1.20€ per piece. Hope this helps.

Hey Raul, we are constantly trying to keep a balance between being useful and relevant to all sorts of travellers, while at the same time striving to avoid turning into a giant advertising brochure. Its a fine like to walk, and surely its not always perfect.

While calling apartment rentals around the European capitals irrelevant might be pushing it a bit, I do agree its a need that better catered to elsewhere on sites set up specifically for the trade - since, as it has turned out, if we leave the sleep section untendered they end up looking like this which is not really useful to anyone, including the business owners. Took us months to clean up that mess --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 18:32, 24 June 2010 (EDT)

Hello Stefan, thank your sincere reply. I understand the explanation and I agree it makes no sense to transform wikivoyage in a huge advertising brochure, but wouldn't be possible to list only agencies that follow certain criteria?

Our company, per example have a 24h emergency number mobile, an office in the city centre if somebody wants to talk with us and many other services. I honestly think that apartments are an excellent alternative to hotels. They are less expensive, you have more privacy and you can live like a local. Sure I do have interest saying this, but this is true! Thank you Stefan!

To Do: add

Students of the Portuguese language should visit the Bibliotech Nationale, short form URL: bn.pt (the Portuguese equivalent to the British Museum or Library of Congress). The BN is the largest collection of Portuguese literature in the world (a special note in particular for Brazilians). 143.232.210.38 13:30, 3 May 2012 (EDT)

The national library is for researchers, what are you talking about? You can absolutely not just go there and read. They screen you, and you need to pay membership fees. The stuff they have there are, like, 1st editions from 400 years ago, etc. You might want to go here instead (that's where they pointed me to):

http://blx.cm-lisboa.pt/gca/index.php?id=404 --Jorge.manuel (talk) 03:04, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Next Challenge - Huge City?

Hey there, I believe we should start planning a "Huge City" article for Lisbon and it's suburbs, as there are a lot of locations and specifics that could be covered but fall short of a single-page article. Lisbon has 4 or 5 very distinc areas, and compared to some of the Huge City articles it certainly has the scope for such an endeavour. What do you think about this idea? FernãoMendesPinto (talk) 21:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm planning to be in Lisbon towards Christmas, so if you could get it all finished by then please. --Inas (talk) 22:44, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

From usable to guide?

After the latest additions, the article is a good candidate for upgrading from usable to guide-level? There are too many bars and restaurants in Lisbon to make comprehensive listing in the main article. --Erik den yngre (talk) 17:18, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

I am so happy to see I am not the only one interested in this article! Looking forward to collaborating on that!

We may want to trim down the list by checking if the establishments are still open and the descriptions make the listings useful and prove their recommendability, but overall I don't think this is a major problem. I do, however see a number of other issues we could rectify together:

1. Biking - this section is too long and a bit of a mess, and more importantly - not very practical
2. Getting in by boat - on the contrary, there is precious little information there. Lisbon has at least three marinas - what are the costs and conditions to moor there, how can one sail into Lisbon etc.? How about "big boats"? Do cruise ships moor in Lisbon regularly, if so where?
3. See/Do - far too few compared to how much there actually is to see/do, and they contain little information. They need updating as well I guess
4. Public transportation - would be good to review info if up to date, copyedit and make more useful
5. Understand - we need a history section to explain all the references to the Earthquake and Marques de Pombal, as well as make sure readers know there is more to Lisbon that that. Other sections could also use brushing up and expansion with useful info, not repeating the same stuff many times
6. Map of districts - even if we don't districtify, we should help users locate them, this is of utmost importance
7. The Lisbon Region - IMHO necessary to make our guide actually useful, and currently still a stub and a bit of a mess as well

I believe we are on a good course to turn this article around from a quite woeful, neglected one to one that is actually a useful guide, but I guess we still have work to do, regardless of the article's status. Your thoughts? PrinceGloria (talk) 17:35, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

We're looking at a future Dotm right here, I guess! Portugal is one of the blank spots on my European map, so sadly I cannot help out that much. Biking - if is it something popular in Lisbon, then it could stay, otherwise it could be trimmed down, Get in by boat - ?, See and Do could be expanded, I guess, and are all those sub-headings necessary?, public transportation looks good at a first glance but I cannot vouch for accuracy, Understand - yes I fully agree, map of districts - could be useful if the city is very spread out like Paris, Lisbon Region - hmm... there is no reason not to improve articles, but is there much information to add? ϒpsilon (talk) 18:14, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Just to make sure:

1. My impression is that Lisbon is one of the least bike-friendly European capitals and biking is a bit of a challenge there due to natural circumstances, so it is more of somebody actually pursuing a biking trip and then dropping their impressions than trying to capture the biking culture of Lisbon, which I did not experience at all (i.e. I would say there is none).
2. The headings are there to help organize POIs. For now, there aren't many, but once we start adding them, this could become unmanageable
3. Lisbon is NOT spread out, it is quite compact for a European capital (less than 100 sqm), but attractions are to be found in many parts of the city and navigating isn't easy. I believe we could provide a good service to our fellow travellers by providing a map to help them get their bearing and an idea where stuff actually is.
4. Lisbon Region - there are loads and loads of information to add. Only around 600,000 people live in Lisbon proper out of the 3 million that live in the region, all of which is pretty much an interconnected agglomeration. There are so many destinations of tourist interest that nobody visiting Lisbon should stay only in the city proper. We do need information on how to get around, a good map and such that would be too much for the article on Lisbon. On the other hand, we need to rein in the proliferation of empty and unnecessary articles on locations and artificially created subregions.

PrinceGloria (talk) 19:12, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Re Biking: Agree. Because of terrain and street layout biking is difficult. Re Map/navigation: My impression is that sights are somehow clustered in districts, for instance many sights in "central Lisboa" (incl Bairro Alto and Alfama), key sights in Belem as well as new area at Oriental, etc. So perhaps sights should be presented according to area. --Erik den yngre (talk) 17:54, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Excellent. Now we have a list of points to improve, that makes further work much more focused. A comment above suggested to make this into a "Huge City" article, in my opinion (at least at present) it should not be broken up into smaller articles, at least all highlights (major sights) should be in the main article, while it is of course possible to create sub-articles with street-by-street details (bars, restaurants, sights etc) for Bairro Alto, Alfama and Baixa. --Erik den yngre (talk) 17:54, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Erik, this is not how we do districtifying - if we do go for it, ALL the listings, especially See, Do, Eat, Drink and Sleep, go to district articles. The main article keeps info on how to Get In, Get Around, some general info in Understand and general guidance which district to go to for a particular type of attraction, food, entertainment or accommodation. I am actually thinking that such districtification could serve Lisbon well eventually - once we put all the POIs in, we will end up with an article which will probably need splitting. Let's first put the POIs though and see - I am trying to add as much as possible from memory and sources and it would be great if we could expand on each of them - give a description and location, verify details (price, hours etc.) and make their entries useful. PrinceGloria (talk) 18:59, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

OK, if that is the guideline, I am not comfortable moving all the listings under "See" to each district as that would somehow hide the highlights. Personally I recommend the National Pantheon, the Castle, the Tile Museum, Gulbenkian, the Aquaduct and Jeronimo - if these are only listed within their respective districts it is less clear to the reader that they are highlights. This is perhaps a general policy discussion for WikiV, rather than a discussion specific to Lisboa. Information overload is one of the challenges for a visitor to town like Lisboa. Regards, --Erik den yngre (talk) 09:26, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

There you have it - I would personally recommend something else, but this is irrelevant. This is not a personal recommendation website, this is an attempt to build a comprehensive guide together. To combat information overload, we split listings into smaller lists by means of subheadings, and if there still is too much thereof, we start districtifying.

In some cities or districts where there are so many sights that they may be overwhelming for a visitor, I add a "Key sights" section when splitting the long list into several ones. But overall, we should avoid discussions as to what one finds the most interesting - let the traveller read the comprehensive descriptions of the sights and make their own choices, as I do and I guess so do you. PrinceGloria (talk) 15:58, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Agree, it should not be a page for personal recommendation, but as you point out there are some "key sights" that are widely agreed upon. In Paris for instance that would include the Eiffel tower and the Louvre. So what I am trying to say is that, if the article is broken up in districts, the main article should help the reader navigate by giving brief descriptions of each district indicating for instance that Belem is home to Jeronimo (not necessairly a detailed listing). For instance on the Norway page mentions key characteristics of each region. In any case, you are doing a great job improving the article! --Erik den yngre (talk) 17:17, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind words! I am looking forward to more of your edits, as this should not be a personal guide by myself! At any rate, ultra-prominent points such as the Louvre are handled as you suggested - by giving them a mention in the main article with reference to the district where to find them. No need to give them a full listing and then repeat it in the district's article. PrinceGloria (talk) 17:25, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Guide by ESC 2018?

As of today it is exactly 6 months until the European Championship for us who don't understand sports; Eurovision Song Contest 2018 in Lisbon. While the event itself is not visited by a myriad of travelers, it will be televised to ~200 million people, some of which will get curious about Lisbon and end up reading this article. I believe that we should aim to get this article to guide status by then.

There are a few things to fix. Some things are quite straight forward, such as copy editing and expanding listings. While labourus, they are not very hard (could perhaps be done as part of a cotm?) The main issue with the article is however that it is in dire need of consistent and clear districtification. At the time of my writing there are some districts (Principe Real/Norte) which are listed in the orientation section, but then not mentioned again. Others (Estrela/Western suburbs) exists as subsections of "see" and "eat" sections, but are not mentioned in the orientation section. Further, while the current "orientation" section give an idea of where the heartland of each district is, it gives little advice on where the boundaries are drawn. There seem to be some overlap. I therefore hope that we can get some districification which is mutually exclusive, mutually exhaustive and consistent throughout the article.

A working suggestion is that we use the 5 "zonas" as the starting point. While administrative boundaries are not of prime interest of the traveler, I don't have any other better suggestion. Two problems surfaces. Most points of interests are concentrated in "Centro historico" while almost none can be found in "Norte". I therefore suggest that "Norte" is merged into "Centro", while "Centro historico" is divided into Bairro Alto/Chiado (Western hill), Baixa/Rossio (Mid valley), and Alfama (Eastern hill). (I am actually currently traveling in Lisbon and I realize that this is how I've been orienting myself. If you are walking downhill with the river on your right side you are on the Western hill, walking towards Baixa, if you are walking downhill with the river on your left you are in Alfama walking towards Baixa, and if the street is flat you are in Baixa.) This gives us 6 districts which seems reasonable. The Baixa district would cover a very small geographical surface, but perhaps that is okay. However, not being an expert on the city I would be glad to hear other suggestions. Finally, I don't know the first thing about creating maps. Is someone able to to create a static map, or a dynamic map with district-shades on it? MartinJacobson (talk) 11:34, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Your suggestion of districtification sounds reasonable to me, although I don't feel I can really offer a more informed opinion regarding boundaries as I've personally only spent a week total in the city.

I don't know how to make a static map and can make only very simple dynamic district maps, but Renek78 has done some great work creating dynamic district maps for a number of cities – perhaps s/he may be available to help? –StellarD (talk) 18:48, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Wikidata items for dynamic map

24 Freguesias

Below is the list with all Wikidata items for the "freguesias" of Lisbon. This should simplify the work in case we want to change the district set-up in the future. The tool Wikidata Extractor has been used to create the mapshapes.

Name	Wikidata ID
Ajuda	Q413311
Alcântara	Q1017927
Alvalade	Q448231
Areeiro	Q501847
Arroios	Q15041623
Avenidas Novas	Q9640593
Beato	Q686717
Belém	Q18500330
Benfica	Q534230
Campo de Ourique	Q2883431
Campolide	Q1031527
Carnide	Q1044020
Estrela	Q423043
Lumiar	Q924723
Marvila	Q1786435
Misericórdia	Q1677202
Olivais	Q1786397
Parque das Nações	Q1428475
Penha de França	Q1786389
Santa Clara	Q10367770
Santa Maria Maior	Q10367953
Santo António	Q10368164
São Domingos de Benfica	Q1618787
São Vicente	Q10376043

Subdistricts of Santa Maria Maior (city centre)

It might be necessary to split up the city centre even finer. Here are the 12 subdistricts of Santa Maria Maior (city centre).

Name	Wikidata-ID
Castelo	Q978535
Madalena	Q387982
Mártires	Q432607
Sacramento	Q1817058
Santa Justa	Q1786376
Santiago	Q1786441
Santo Estévão	Q738143
São Cristóvão e São Lourenço	Q1740339
São Miguel	Q969311
São Nicolau	Q1786384
Sé	Q585130
Socorro	Q1466131

Districts talk (2017)

Hi all, I have created the Wikidata items in OpenStreetMap. Now we should be able to easily set up a dynamic district map of the city. Below is a first shot. Have been to Lisbon only once, thus don't know much. Feel free to change it. The districts are not yet as proposed by MartinJacobson - not sure, if it is even possible with those 24 official districts. But we can further subdivide them. For example Santa Maria Maior (part of Centro Histórico) has 12 subdistricts, which could be used, if necessary. But let's start simple as baseline for discussion.--Renek78 (talk) 14:03, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Baixa and Alfama (Santa Maria Maior) XXX Describe main attractions in this district XXX

Bairro Alto (Misericórdia, Avenidas Novas, Santo António) XXX Describe main attractions in this district XXX

West (Belém, Benfica, Campo de Ourique, Campolide, Carnide, Estrela, Lumiar, Santa Clara, São Domingos de Benfica) XXX Describe main attractions in this district XXX

East (Alvalade, Areeiro, Arroios, Beato, Marvila, Olivais, Parque das Nações, Penha de França, São Vicente) XXX Describe main attractions in this district XXX

Your proposed districtification makes sense to me, and because it generally follows the zonas boundaries it would be simpler to create. However I will defer to MartinJacobson who clearly knows the city much better than I do. –StellarD (talk) 16:21, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

A for effort, right?

First of all a disclaimer: I have spent less than one week in Lisbon and is in no way an authority or expert on the city. Secondly; I created this map (right) with print screen and paint (...) giving a more specific district suggestion.

I included "see" and "do" markers, and as you can see these create three distinct clusters: Belém, Parque das Nações, and the city centre. I divided the central cluster into Eastern (~Alfama), Western (~Bairro Alto), Central (~Baixa) and Northern (~Centro). The other two clusters where sorted as Ocidental (~Belém) and Oriental (~Parque das Nações).

When drawing boundaries I primarily used the current praxis in our article, as I assume that it is written by someone who knows the city better than I do (the main deviation is that I categorized "Museu do Azulejo"/"See marker 46" in Alfama since it is closer to the central cluster than the Parque das Nações cluster). Secondly I drew boundaries along major roads (particularly ring roads), as these where more visible on the map, and often make a more understandable boundary when perceived on the ground. It turns out that I have deviated somewhat from the original zone-suggestion.

Note however that the only boundaries I personally have walked across are the ones separating "Western Centro" from "Central Centro" and "Central Centro" from "Eastern Centro". While I feel rather confident about using "R. do Crucifixo" and "R. da Madalena" as boundaries (they make the utmost parts of the "Baixa-box", and the while area between these is very flat, the area beyond them grows very steep) I cannot guarantee that the other lines make sense to a local or from the ground. MartinJacobson (talk) 19:55, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Hi MartinJacobson, if we want to perfectly follow your boundaries we'd need to create them in a tool like JOSM. I have done similar boundaries (e.g. in Kuala Lumpur). Currently I don't have enough time to do so, but I can try to get as close as possible with official boundaries out of Wikidata items. Thanks for the work by the way! --Renek78 (talk) 09:04, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

That would be great! Thank you! If we aim to get this to guide by May there is no rush in districtifying. MartinJacobson (talk) 18:42, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Districts talk (2018)

Hi MartinJacobson and everyone else, who is interested. Would this district setup be acceptable? It is as close as possible approximated to your proposal. This map is purely based on Wikidata boundaries. The big advantage is, that the districts can be easily changed in the future. But we are also limited to the official boundaries. Still I think that this is the best way forward. Thanks for your feedback. If nobody opposes I would start to districtify in the next couple of weeks.--Renek78 (talk) 15:49, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Central Centro Historico (Santa Justa, São Nicolau, Madalena) XXX Describe main attractions in this district XXX

Western Centro Historico (Misericórdia, Avenidas Novas, Santo António) XXX Describe main attractions in this district XXX

Eastern Centro Historico (Alvalade, Areeiro, Arroios, Beato, Marvila, Olivais, Parque das Nações, Penha de França, São Vicente) XXX Describe main attractions in this district XXX

Ocidental (Ajuda, Alcântara, Belém) XXX Describe main attractions in this district XXX

Oriental (Beato, Marvila, Parque das Nações) XXX Describe main attractions in this district XXX

Outskirts (Benfica, Carnide, Lumiar, Santa Clara, Olivais, São Domingos de Benfica, Campolide, Alvalade, Avenidas Novas, Areeiro) XXX Describe main attractions in this district XXX

Just wondering. How "historic" are East and West Centro Histórico? To my knowledge, the 1755 earthquake levelled the whole city; only Alfama and Bairro Alto can claim a shadow of "historicity"; I may be wrong but this districtification scheme got me thinking. Ibaman (talk) 18:44, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Good point. How about Centro Historico, Eastern Centre and Western Centre. Not sure whether I like this English and Portuguese language mix though.--Renek78 (talk) 10:03, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Looks great! Thank you for all your work Renek78! As I understand it, Centro Historico is considered the historical centre of the city, as compared to the modern business centre/geographical centre located further north (which is in the area we, perhaps a bit misleadingly, call outskirts above.) And while Baixa's 18th century architecture isn't medieval or ancient, I think that it could still be considered historical compared to the more modernist architecture found further north.

Nevertheless, we might want to consider other names. Thinking out loud: I don't think we should call the middle piece alone Centro Historico, since, as Ibaman pointed out, the most historically preserved areas can be found in the eastern piece. A more accurate name would probably simply be Baixa. The eastern chunk could perhaps be called Alfama. While Alfama strictly speaking is only part of the eastern chunk, it is the part of the eastern chunk which is of most interest to tourists. The northern part could perhaps be called Norte, or Centro y Norte, matching the Portuguese names of Oriental and Occidental. That leaves the western chunk, consisting of a bunch of different areas such as Bairro Alto, Chiado, Principe Real and Estrela. I'm not sure what to call them collectively. Western Centro Historico or some variety of it is the best I can think of, but that wouldn't match very well with the other proposed names. MartinJacobson (talk) 10:11, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Districts talk (2019)

Any progress? Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:28, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

I would say we are done. Just the naming of the districts has to be improved. And the articles have to be written of course. The main work. --Renek78 (talk) 11:52, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

@Renek78, Hobbitschuster: To me it is a little awkward to find districts with generic and bureaucratic-sounding names rather than the historic districts like Bairro Alto, Alfama, Chiado or Baixa that are used for districtification in almost every conventional travel guide and seem to be household names among locals and visitors alike. I do not believe that many visitors are aware of or interested in the official administrative divisions. They are rather looking for historic quarters with their characteristic "flavour". Therefore I would propose to replace "Central Centro Historico" with Lisbon/Baixa, "Western Centro Historico" with Lisbon/Bairro Alto-Chiado and "Eastern Centro Historico" with Lisbon/Alfama. Perhaps also change "Ocidental" to Lisbon/Belém or Lisbon/Ocidental-Belém as Belém has many famous landmarks and points of interest to visitors. Likewise "Oriental" could include Parque das Nações in its title as it is the most interesting and recognisable area in the east of the city. --RJFF (talk) 16:45, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Metro on dynamic map

It appears that the yellow metro line is showing possible future extensions (Rato to Cais de Sodré) that I don't think are even under construction yet. --Nelson Ricardo (talk) 05:17, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

bumping this. it seems that it was fixed for the Yellow line, which is in construction and (relatively) near finishing, but now the Red Line is showing up with future extensions from São Sebastião to Alcântara, and that hasn't started construction. JnpoJuwan (talk) 18:05, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Guide status?

Back in February, after making various improvements to the Lisbon article, I unilaterally upgraded it to Guide status. I'm now worried that I may have been hasty. I would appreciate review and feedback. Thank you. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 01:17, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Doesn't look like you're being hasty to me at all. I'm not all that familiar with Lisbon, but the article is very helpful and seems to meet the requirements outlined for guide status. There's a lot of great work here and I think it definitely could be used as a standalone guide for most travellers. --LivelyRatification (talk) 02:55, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Does this mean that the district discussion has ended, and we can remove the template? Ground Zero (talk) 00:26, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Looks stalled since 2019, and I have no ideas for this. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 00:29, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Districts talk (2021)

Building upon #Districts talk (2018) and #Districts talk (2019), I like @User:Renek78's map, but I prefer @User:RJFF's district names. I will combine both concepts and overlay the mapshapes. Knowing where our boundaries are in relation to listings will help once we start splitting out the district articles. --Nelson Ricardo (talk) 01:51, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

District boundaries have been set, and bare-bones district articles have been created. These new articles need to be built out and the listings moved. If no one objects to my actions, we will consider Lisbon districts discussion resolved. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 05:39, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Great work, Nelson Ricardo! If I find some time I'll help you with moving the listings. But the weather is so nice here at the moment... --Renek78 (talk) 08:10, 20 July 2021 (UTC)