Wikivoyage:Arrivals lounge/Archives/2021/April

listings under multiple sections?

What's the policy on listing items that fit multiple categories?

For example, a hotel with an on-site restaurant could fit both the "Sleep" and "Eat" sections. Would it make sense to list it under both? Or do we select only the category that best describes the place? --Ixfd64 (talk) 22:56, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

An establishment should have only one listing. If you are listing a hotel that has a restaurant, I recommemend including mention of the restaurant (you can bold the name) in the content field of the hotel's Sleep listing. See Caldas da Rainha#Sana_Silver_Coast_Hotel for an example. --Nelson Ricardo (talk) 23:40, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Got it — I figured this was the case but wasn't completely sure. Thanks for the response! Ixfd64 (talk) 00:27, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Ixfd64 and Nelson Ricardo, I usually wouldn't recommend any mention in more than one section. The exceptions are if a hotel's restaurant is independently notable, such that more than half its patrons are not staying at the hotel (in that situation, the restaurant merits a separate listing) or the town is so small that the hotel's restaurant is one of no more than, say, 5 restaurants in town. Of course, if the restaurant is notable and the hotel is not, vice versa to everything I just typed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:30, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

I think this is a good guideline. Thanks. Ixfd64 (talk) 00:35, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

You're most welcome. This isn't a hard science, so to an extent, it can really be case by case. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:18, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Missing redirects of the form "Co. County Name" for counties in Ireland

I see there are no entries for Co. Clare, Co. Cork, Co. Kerry, Co. Limerick, etc. Given that the use of the "Co." is the standard way of writing these here, I wondered why these names are all missing in Wikivoyage. Does anyone know of a convention, praxis, policy, consensus, or whatever, that I would be accosted with if I created redirects for these? I noticed that some editors are getting around the problem by using piped links such as "[[County Tipperary|Co. Tipperary]]" (rendering as "Co. Tipperary"), to bypass these omissions. Thanks. DeFacto (talk) 12:31, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Where is "here"? Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:43, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

@Hobbitschuster: Ireland

@DeFacto: No policy that I know of, and I can see that these would be helpful (I have also created redirects for the common English county abbreviations like Hants, Berks etc). The Irish ones are probably missing because, like I said to you yesterday, there has until recently been no-one actively improving Ireland's articles. User:Grahamsands started a few months back, and he might also have an opinion on your idea, and now you're the second.

You might consider revising your tone to be less confrontational. When people revert your edits or leave you messages, that's not them "accosting" you, that's them doing what they think is best for the wiki (rightly or wrongly). If you assume good faith of others, then most people (most of the time) will do likewise with you. Given your long history on Wikipedia, you know that better than most WV 'newbies'.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:53, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I have never before seen the abbreviated form (is it a thing in legal forms?) but frequently the written out form... Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:57, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Your userpage indicates you've never been to Ireland, so I'm not sure where you think you would have seen it unless you were regularly reading the Irish press or looking up county council websites.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:01, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

@Hobbitschuster: I see you have a view on it anyway, so perhaps you could explain that. And perhaps you could also say why, when four of the five entries on that page under Ireland and which gave the county in the "Co. xxx" format, you only removed it from the one that I added. DeFacto (talk) 13:07, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

@ThunderingTyphoons!: thanks. If it's okay to use the British convention for British county names, then I might risk using the Irish convention for the Irish counties then. (Excuse me if I don't comment on your other point here, I fear ithat would lead to thread creep.) DeFacto (talk) 13:28, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Well obviously I can't guarantee that someone won't take issue with the redirects, but I would argue for their inclusion value if it came to that.

No need to reply to the other thing at all, just consider it.

One more thing, on Wikivoyage we tend to leave comments in chronological order (not a rule, but a convention; you can ping or quote to make it clear which comment you're replying to), which is not the case on English Wikipedia for instance.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:36, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

@ThunderingTyphoons!: yes, fair point, and how weird - and yet indented as if threaded! DeFacto (talk) 13:48, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

On your remark to Hobbitschuster: There are three reasons to revert such an edit: 1) most readers are non-Irish, and might be confused by the abbrevision 2) there is a value in linking the article name, to make clear what page one is linking 3) what to call a place is best decided in connection with the article on it (or a more general one, such as on Talk:Ireland), not on random pages linking there. Thus I might have no opinion on what a place should be called, but still change links to use the presumably agreed on name used as page title. Probably the other "Co."s should be changed also. –LPfi (talk) 13:54, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

(Places with unusual names is not the place to introduce readers to local conventions. –LPfi (talk) 13:56, 16 April 2021 (UTC) )

Fair points for the unusual names article. I don't think it's a confusing abbreviation, but then I am used to it. However, the proposed "Co. X" redirects would definitely be useful, particularly for editors using the search bar (which is partly why I made all the English county abbreviations into redirects).--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:52, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Seems entirely reasonable to do this, and to include Northern Ireland. FYI, the counties of Ireland have been remarkably little changed since 12th C monks accidentally delineated them, by defining parish boundaries. They have strong cultural identities and determine local transport routes. They may even be bred into the bone: work in England maybe ten years ago showed that people from different counties had distinct genetic markers, and this after so much modern mixing. I haven't see anything similar published for Ireland but the effect must be even stronger, as it had great outflows of population but nothing like the same inflows as England. Grahamsands (talk) 18:20, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, we should create the redirects to account for cases when these abbreviations are used. However, our preference should be to spell out County in our articles. U.S. readers, and probably others, take Co. to mean company. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 20:20, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Correct. In the U.S., when we abbreviate county, we use "Cty." Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:24, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

It seems the abbreviation – and the importance of counties – should be mentioned somewhere in Ireland#Understand (and in Northern Ireland). –LPfi (talk) 05:58, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

(The country article is classified as outline! Is there something missing, or is that just a relict? –LPfi (talk) 06:08, 17 April 2021 (UTC))

@LPfi: The majority of our country articles are at outline, per the relatively strict criteria at Wikivoyage:Country article status. That said, Ireland has now reached the requisites for usable level, so I'll upgrade it.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:57, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Wikivoyage and Dagbani Wikimedia Community

I am a co-founder of Dagbani wikipedia user group which is currently in incubator. I am very new on wikivoyage but wish to learn more about it in order for our community to contribute to the content of wikivoyage. The Dagbani wikipedia has many active contributors who can contribute lots of content to the wikivoyage articles. Dagbanli is a Ghanaian language spoken by Dagombas in the northern part of Ghana. There are so many interesting places in the area that when articles are created and develop about them, it will aid travelors who want to travel to those places. How do I get to create articles about those places on wikivoyage? Also, getting enough information about those places at times requires traveling or having a photo walks to those places, how would you guide me me to seek for funding or some grants in order to organise the photo walks to gather enough information to develop the articles and visuals about the sites? Alhassan Mohammed Awal (talk) 09:04, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Hello, welcome to Wikivoyage :-) Very glad to have you. I have just left our standard welcome message on your talk page, which should answer some of your basic questions. You may also wish to read WV:What is an article and WV:How to start a new page.

Re the funding issue, you probably want to look into applying for a Wikimedia grant. Additionally, it might be fruitful to make contact with user:Timmylegend who is in the middle of organising a group of mainly Nigerian Wikimedians in expanding Wikivoyage's coverage of African destinations, so there may be a way for your two groups to work together, even if you end up working on different articles.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:23, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikivoyage. We're glad you're here. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 09:46, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Welcome to English Wikivoyage, Alhassan! Africa is a fascinating continent that is too often overlooked. We would greatly appreciate contributions from Africans to expand and improve our coverage of this part of the world. Thank you. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 20:48, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

You can get some useful information on this page: Wikivoyage:Africa Expedition. And you will get support from contributors like us to help with formatting and technical issues. I really look forward to learning more about northern Ghana. Ground Zero (talk) 21:08, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Is this edit okay?

Hello, I am new here. I was wondering if this edit is okay per wikivoyage policies? or not? Lightbluerain (talk) 14:03, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Welcome/bienvenido :-) I might have quibbles about some of the wording ("city of contrasts" is one of the biggest clichés going), but as far as policies go your edit is fine. Thanks for being here and please carry on.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:12, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Another warm welcome. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 06:32, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. Although it was not my edit, I was just unsure whether to undo that or not. But, your responses felt pretty welcoming. Thanks again. Lightbluerain (talk) 12:49, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

How detailed is the wiki?

I just joined this wiki because I have recently done a series of trips to lesser known places. But, since they were still extraordinary, I feel like I might help people by sharing these places. That's what I joined the wiki for (also because I think that its an idea worth supporting). But then I read that Wikivoyage doesn't want to have "every attraction" in it. They probably mean 'every little attraction'. But, the attractions that I thought of adding are "little attractions". In a Metaphor: Is this wiki only for the Eiffel Tower or also for small, unknown, but beautiful churches in the outskirts of Paris? Is it OK to add 'secret travel tips', which might be off a typical traveler's route? Der graue Reisende (talk) 14:17, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

@Der graue Reisende: See WV:7+2, WV:Don’t tout, WV:Boring and WV:Relevant to see what type of listings to include. 82.3.185.12 14:23, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

@Der graue Reisende: welcome to Wikivoyage. We definitely have space for information about lesser-known places. This is our advantage over a paper-based guide. The "every attraction" comment is about big cities where the reader would be overwhelmed if everything were included. For example, London has over 960 buildings marked with historical "blue plaques". The London article would be useless if it included information on every one. But we should definitely have articles on small towns that have interesting things to see, especially those that are off the beaten path.

The WV:7+2 rule is about not having too many destinations listed in each region or country article. The Jordan article, for example, should list the 5-9 cities that are most important for travellers to know about. But Jordan is divided into four regions in Wikivoyage: Northern Jordan, King's Highway, Eastern Desert, Southern Desert, and none of them has more than 7+2 cities listed. Cities listed in Jordan should also be listed in the region articles, and cities that don't make the cut for 7+2 list in Jordan should only appear in a region article.

Again, welcome. I look forward to reading about the places you've visited. Ground Zero (talk) 15:44, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) See also WV:What is an article, which outlines what type of places get their own article. The page you allude to says "We don't create articles for every attraction or cross-roads on the globe" (my emphasis). We definitely want information on "little attractions", but that doesn't mean they all get their own article. Normally, only settlements, regions and countries get their own articles on Wikivoyage, and attractions should be listed in the settlement article (called "city" articles). See for example York, Berlin/Mitte, or Bouzigues; they all list local attractions, even the minor ones that are off the beaten track.

Some very large and complex attractions (e.g. national parks or Disneyland) get their own article, but that's because those are self-contained independently of any one "city" article, and have multiple options for accommodation and food etc.

We also have itinerary articles, which detail a particular trip or route a traveller might take.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:54, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Similarly major airports can have articles, but train, bus or cruise ship stations do not (yet) as per community consensus. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:56, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Further to the point about regions of Jordan: There is no limit to the number of cities with articles that can be listed in bottom-level region articles (which are articles about regions that aren't subdivided into smaller regions on this site). A possible remedy for regions that have a large number of cities listed is to subdivide them into smaller regions, but if a small town is interesting, by all means create an article about it, and if there's a minor attraction you enjoyed, by all means create a listing of it in the article for the destination where it's located.

The way I'd sum things up is, when in doubt, add the information. If it's too encyclopedic or whatever, it can always be summarized or in some cases (for example, WV:Boring in the case of fast food chain listings where independent restaurants exist) removed, but it's much better to just add the content than to be inhibited about doing so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:31, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

@Der graue Reisende: As Ikan Kekek said, plunge forward. 82.3.185.12 19:12, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you very much for all the helpful comments! I shall now plunge forward! Der graue Reisende (talk) 13:49, 26 April 2021 (UTC)