Talk:Latin Europe

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From the article: "While the Maltese language is Semitic, Malta has a clearly Roman-Catholic heritage."

I could reply "While the Polish language is Slavic, Poland has a clearly Roman Catholic heritage."

Do you really think Malta belongs? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:40, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm inclined to say Malta belongs. We're talking about travel-regions, so it's more geography and culture we should be concerned about then language groups. We include England in Britain and Ireland, even though English isn't actuality a Celtic (British) language. If Malta is more closely related to Italy then any other European country, then I'm thinking it belongs. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 11:35, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, but is this a geographical travel region? If it's an extra-region, it's one of Romance language and a common Roman past, and it probably should include Romania and Moldova as full members but exclude Malta. No-one ever suggested that Britain and Ireland constitute the "Celtic Europe" "region" before you did. I mean, I suppose this is all somewhat for the sake of argument, but I do think Malta is a really weak link, as I question how much more Latin its heritage is than that of many other non-Romance-speaking (or primarily non-Romance-speaking) former Roman provinces, such as you can see remains of, for example, in Croatia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:02, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
The Maltese language is classified as a semitic and not a romance language. Nevertheless it is relevant that "about half of the vocabulary is derived from standard Italian and Sicilian" : w:Maltese_language Andrewssi2 (talk) 12:09, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
58% of English vocabulary is also derived from Latin and French, according to w:Foreign language influences in English. So should England and Ireland be part of "Latin Europe"? Probably not, right? Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:26, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
Well prior to its - relatively brief, all things considered - status as an "unsinkable aircraft carrier and naval base" for the Royal Air Force and British Royal Navy, Malta was ruled by some Catholic monastic order that used to do some fighting in the Outremer back in their day. In fact that only came to an end, when - naturally - Napoleon waltzed in. Plus it is geographically quite close to Italy and if you're not flying, you're pretty sure to be coming from Italy when you're headed for Malta. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:06, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
At least if we look at a map, out of the current region articles, it would fit best into the Latin Europe article. I mean, Malta is part of Europe and where would we otherwise put it? Right under Europe as its own category? But if we want to further reduce the number of regions in Europe, we could create a "mixed bag" region called Far Southeastern Europe (or something similar) and put Malta there together with Greece, Malta, Turkey and the Caucasus countries. ϒpsilon (talk) 18:09, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
A better question might be: given that this is supposed to eventually be an actual hierarchical region of Europe, where would Malta go if not here? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:01, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
For reference:
Criteria Portugal Spain Andorra France Monaco Italy SM Vatican Malta Gib. NL Belgium Lux. Switz. Romania Moldova
Roman Empire Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Little Yes Yes Yes Partly Little
Romance language Yes Yes* Yes Yes* Yes Yes Yes Yes No Partly No Partly Partly Partly Yes* Yes*
Catholic majority Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes No Yes Yes Partly Little No
Euro as currency Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes No Yes Yes Yes No No No
Schengen area (de facto) Yes Yes No Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes No Yes Yes Yes Yes No No
*=Except endemic minority languages
I don't think this is a hierarchical region of Europe, so I think Malta doesn't belong. Also, you could go from Tunisia to Malta and don't have to go to or from Italy to get there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:42, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
But the whole impetus behind the creation of this article was to reduce the number of subregions in the first level under Europe. So it is intended to eventually be a hierarchical region pending resolution of the associated discussion at Talk:Europe/Hierarchy. Obviously Malta needs to go in some region, and if not this one, then which one? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:53, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
I like having Italy as essentially its own travel region, given just how many attractions there are there. I don't like the nomenclature of Italian Peninsula embracing Malta et al., but I think that tweaking the name somehow is less drastic and probably more useful to travelers than making this huge "Latin Europe" region hierarchical. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:01, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
The Italian peninsula may have an exceptional density of UNESCO world heritage sites, but it isn't that much higher than e.g. in Germany or France. And if you combine one of those countries with neighbors, you get to a higher number than for Italy. So I am not sure Italy has to ipso facto be its own region Hobbitschuster (talk) 09:42, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
France has its own region, as it should. I don't think merely focusing on UNESCO world heritage sites really tells the full tale, but if Germany is such a tremendous destination for travelers, I could see actually increasing, rather than decreasing, the number of regions in Europe by adding one made up of Germany, Austria, Switzerland and Liechtenstein (the suggested "Germanic Europe"). Or the Low Countries could be put in a region with France. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:36, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
Why? What's up with this weird desire for exceeding fragmentation? Central Europe is one of the better region articles under Europe precisely because it doesn't just contain one country and its satellites. iberia is so pointless partially because it is basically "Spain plus" and "Germany plus" would suffer from a similar fate. As does "Italy plus". Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:36, 12 September 2017 (UTC)


This article's place in the hierarchy is under debate at Talk:Europe/Hierarchy. Please provide your opinions. /Yvwv (talk) 22:59, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Date of Italian unification[edit]

An IP changed the date from 1870 (the time Rome was conquered) to 1861. What would you consider the better date? Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:01, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia gives it at 1861 (w:Italy). Personally, I think it's the better choice, and 1870 is probably too long after the w:Expedition of the Thousand. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 00:07, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
But can a country without its historic capital be considered truly "unified"? Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:09, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
Sure, in the sense that it is one nation-state where before there were many states (the Holy See excepted). ARR8 (talk | contribs) 00:18, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
The Holy See isn't a state, just like the Sovereign Order of Malta isn't. The current Vatican only came under de jure papal sovereignty under Mussolini. Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:33, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
Right, that's why I consider it an exception and Italy unified in 1861. One could maybe argue that Italy was never and is not unified because San Marino is independent, but, if one overlooks it, the Italian nation, if there is such a thing, minus diaspora populations, has been living under one state from 1861 onward. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 00:51, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
In any case, the precise year of unification is not really a crucial fact of this article. /Yvwv (talk) 01:08, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Southwestern Europe[edit]

If you consider romance-speaking European countries of catholic heritage as a coherent ensemble (I personnaly don't but let's admit), then its localisation is much more something like "western and southern Europe" then "southwestern Europe". Most of France is not southern Europe, and if you consider Germany and Switzerland to be central European, Italy is not in the west either. --Esprit intemporel (talk) 03:19, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:36, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes Replaced ARR8 (talk | contribs) 19:51, 24 March 2019 (UTC)