Talk:Travelling during Ramadan

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Excessive?[edit]

Yes, if you are in an all-Muslim area, you should avoid eating in public, but if you're a non-Muslim, you don't need to embrace Islam just because you're in a Muslim country during Ramadan. So I would delete this kind of advice:

Everyone will be expected to dress conservatively, so ensure you dress modestly in public area. Revealing arms, legs and shoulders may offend others.

Not specifically relevant to Ramadan but a good idea in general when visiting conservative Islamic areas.

Travelling for leisure purpose is giant "NO".

I don't see why. Why not?

Alcohol sales are banned during Ramadan in many Muslim countries so avoid asking for one.

Depends on the country. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:24, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Hi IK, Thanks for making a comment. Well, during Ramadan, I think one should seriously avoid eating/drinking/smoking in public areas. Even if one is non-Muslim, they should abstain otherwise it can really offend locals and in some countries, for instance in UAE, its illegal. Dress modestly rule goes for all Muslim nations but there's no serious harm if one is wearing a mini skirt somewhere in Dubai or Turkey but during Ramadan, they should really dress conservatively otherwise locals may get annoy and harsh. Regarding travelling for leisure, off-couse you can travel anytime for leisure when you want but I wouldn't recommend going on holidays in a Muslim station during Ramadan. Restaurants are closed, many attractions are closed during day time and activities during day time is very low. --Saqib (talk) 21:18, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
I certainly agree that if you're in an all-Muslim area, you should avoid eating or smoking in public during the day in Ramadan. Not sure about drinking - it may not be possible to avoid having water during the day if you are traveling in a hot area. The idea that you should dress more conservatively during Ramadan is a new one for me, and not something I was exposed to in Malaysia, so I think there are some variations from one place to another, although I haven't spent Ramadan in Malaysia since the 70s, and things could have changed in terms of expectations of non-Muslim dress during Ramadan in highly Islamic areas (e.g., Kelantan, Terengganu). I think it's fine to suggest that Ramadan is not a good time to travel for leisure, as long as reasons are given, but "a giant NO" is too strong, in my opinion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:46, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
Non-Muslims are not bound to fast if they're in a Muslim state nor they're expected to fast but as I said they should refrain from eating/drinking in public areas and especially in front of those who're fasting. I don't think that a traveller going to spend all day outside in crowded public areas so they can obviously eat/drink at somewhere where there's less crowd or no one around at all. I never travelled during Ramadan so I don't know very much how some places are more stricter than others. I'm sharing my experience of Pakistan and UAE where I spent my Ramadan. --Saqib (talk) 00:57, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
I think we all agree that visitors in heavily Muslim areas during Ramadan should not eat in public, and I take your point that they also should drink as discreetly as possible. These aren't points of contention. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:19, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Questions[edit]

This article is a good idea, though I am inclined to agree with Ikan above about not going overboard.

However, not eating, drinking or smoking in public at this time is not embracing Islam, just simple respect.

Things that should, I think, be added:

  • A bit of history. Why do Muslims fast at this time? Are the Islamic Ramadan and Christian Lent related?
  • Dates. The Islamic calendar is different from the Western one. I want a table showing when Ramadan falls for the next few years.
  • Exceptions. Does a pregnant woman fast? A baby? A hospital patient?
  • w:Zakat. Isn't that, or at least one part of it done in Ramadan?
  • Other customs. e.g. When I was in Jeddah
people would get up before dawn, have a huge breakfast, go to dawn prayer
most businesses closed a large part of the day, many people sleeping
after evening prayer, all the restaurants would open and be quite busy into the small hours
many retail businesses were open then too
Basically, the whole schedule of life got re-arranged. This was a bit of a shock initially, but evenings in the suk were great once you'd adapted a bit.
  • Eid-al-fitr, Is there something at the beginning as well?

Are there similar articles that should be written on other topics? w:Day of Ashura for Shi'ia Islam (including Ismalis?). w:Lent for catholics (what about Orthodox?) Perhaps others. Pashley (talk) 21:19, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Babies don't fast, children don't have to fast until they are 13 (perhaps 12 for girls) to the best of my recollection, and people who are sick are not supposed to fast. I believe that's true of pregnant and lactating women, too, but some fast, anyway. All of this is a little complex, because there are religious police in many Muslim countries who go around busting Muslims for eating during the day in Ramadan, without considering that they may be on doctor's orders to do so. In addition, I seem to remember that if you need to travel during Ramadan, there is a dispensation to postpone the fast to another time of year. Perhaps Saqib would like to confirm or deny any of these points that I'm making from memory. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:46, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
Pashley, thanks for suggestion. I will surely expand the article with all the points that mentioned but when I get some more spare time. BTW, Eid is celebrated at the end of Ramadan and in my opinion, having an article on Day of Ashura is not important at all. IK, your information is correct and Muslim travellers are not bound to fast too but again, everyone should avoid eating/drinking in public. --Saqib (talk) 00:57, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
I made a few edits and added the "ramadandates" template. See what you think of the article now. By the way, I agree with Saqib that there's no obvious reason to have an article specifically about either Eid (al-Fitri or al-Adha) or Ashura, but perhaps more can be posted about Eid al-Fitri in a section in this article. Because while Ramadan is a difficult time to be in a Muslim country (though certainly tolerable!), Eid is a great time to be there, especially if you have friends who invite you to celebrate with them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:32, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
Right and good work IK. I'll now expand the article a bit and then please try to do some copyediting. --Saqib (talk) 06:43, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
Absolutely, and thanks for your excellent work in starting the article. It's definitely a useful topic. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:37, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
This is really turning into a beautiful article. Congratulations, Saqib! Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:18, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for making it possible IK. I appreciate your copyediting. I'll further expand the article tonight and then I think the article status can be promoted too. --Saqib (talk) 00:32, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
I already promoted it to Usable, and I think it's probably close to being a Guide. I look forward to seeing what you add. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:34, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
Nice article indeed! I do think the advice to "avoid" travel in all Muslim countries during Ramadan is too general though, and too negative. I've travelled in both Morocco and Turkey during this month (but also during other times), and while I'd advice travellers to carefully consider and be aware of the downsides, I must say I've found Ramadan the most interesting time there and would easily go again. It takes some adjusting, but there are a number of upsides, at least in the countries I mentioned. There are far fewer other tourists, it offers a nice opportunity for conversations, and after dark the general atmosphere is more festive than usual. Also, while I never ate or drank in public, many shop and hotels there in tourist areas do sell to foreigners. I imagine this might vary strongly from country to country. I've seen tourists being asked for their passports (to prove they're not local), and I've not seen any alcohol for sale, but otherwise locals did not seem to mind westerners buying a bottle of water or some simple food, actually, as long as they wouldn't be eating/drinking it too prominently in their sight. Most travellers seem to respect that too, and have lunch at their hotels. Several of the hotels where I stayed would only serve indoors, not on the terraces. I'm just trying to say; practices vary per country. I think it's too bold to discourage people from visiting Muslim countries during Ramadan altogether. Cheers! JuliasTravels (talk) 16:17, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
Nice to see you back after a months long wiki break and thanks for considering making comment here. You're right we shouldn't discourage travellers visiting Muslim countries during Ramadan so please feel free to make changes in article. While there're some downsides during this month but one should definitely visit a Muslim country during this time of year as well to experience something totally different. --Saqib (talk) 18:11, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks :-) Yes, I was away for a bit. I'll have another look tomorrow or so. Actually, several of the points under the Respect section are not so much about respect, but rather about understanding the limitations (e.g. limited opening hours). Shall we move those, or rename the Respect section to something else? The part about dressing more modestly and not eating in public is a matter of respect, although in some places also a matter of law. So what's smart? JuliasTravels (talk) 18:21, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
As I said, please feel free to make changes and modify the names of sections. Yes, for instance, in Dubai, it doesn't matter if you wear a short skirt any time of the year but in Ramadan, the police might fine you and people may look at you with questionable and arguable eyes they would normally do. I think its a taboo to wear revealing clothes during Ramadan in majority of Muslim countries and public affection is considered very bad too.--Saqib (talk) 18:44, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
Great work, Ikan :-) Much better already. There's a lot more that could be said about this topic, but when anyone would read this and consult nothing else about the subject, they'd still be perfectly fine. Pretty much guide level, I'd say. One thing we could maybe stress a bit more are the differences per country. In Morocco, everyday life is thoroughly different. In the touristic coastal areas of Turkey, where it's been high season the last few Ramadan's, many visitors will not even notice it's Ramadan, as the international hotels and resorts do not change their ways. Also outside the really touristic places it was all less obvious on the streets, after dark. Should we include that somehow? I lack the knowledge to include more general information on regional differences, but that could be a useful addition some day. Also, Saqib, maybe something about gifts? I don't know about other countries, but in Morocco (where I was repeatedly introduced to celebrations on people's homes), they all seemed to bring gifts for their hosts when breaking fast, mostly foods. Are there any rules on that, or tips we could include for travellers who are invited somewhere? Is it custom at all in other countries? JuliasTravels (talk) 09:54, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
Thank you, Julia. I haven't heard of giving gifts to hotels in Malaysia during Ramadan, but then I don't think I spent even a single day in any hotel during the two Ramadans I spent in Malaysia; I was in a village house and when we ate during the day, we closed all our doors and windows and tried to be as discreet as possible. I think that you should post what you know, and others can post what they know. Eventually, perhaps we'll develop somewhat of a full picture, while knowing there's no way to cover all the variation in the Muslim world, as it's just too varied to encompass in a single article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:00, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I too think it is or very near to guide status. Thanks for adding a nice photograph IK. I don't know about regional differences as well but that would be definitely a great addition to article. As for gifts, yes, I think its pretty same in every country including Pakistan where guests are always expected to bring food as a gift when invited over Iftar and then on Eid, it become very essential to bring gifts when visiting friends or family. --Saqib (talk) 10:04, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
Another thing, Saqib. I now remembered the big drums that would wake us at 4am or so in Turkey... I found them a lot more... inconvenient than any of the food issues hehe.. I've added a sentence about them, but is this something common in other countries? JuliasTravels (talk) 11:23, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
Unheard of in Malaysia, I believe, for what that's worth. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:35, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
Julias, I don't speak for other countries but in Pakistan, drummers were quite common in old days but after common usage of modern communication mediums, drummers culture is completely vanished from urban part of Pakistan and become limited to only rural areas and particularly mostly remote areas. In urban parts of Pakistan, I think sometimes neighbourhoods usually hire a drummer to give residents of locality a wakeup call but this is not common. I think same for UAE. --Saqib (talk) 11:43, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Time to nominate for FTT?[edit]

Is there anything else we need to do before nominating this article for a feature, or should we nominate and continue working on it? It's not urgent to nominate it yet, as it will be almost a year before Ramadan comes around again. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:51, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks to you and Pashley for working on it. In my opinion, the article is almost ready to feature. I was thinking whether it would be good idea to feature it within this month and run it until July 28th? --Saqib (talk) 13:01, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
I think that would shortchange it, given that we're already 11 days into the month of July and 2 weeks into Ramadan. I would support running it next June, considering that Travel Topics are featured starting on the 21st of each month, which would make the article start being featured on the 4rd day of Ramadan and run till the 5th day after Ramadan. My second choice would be to run the article next May, so that it can be featured during the month before Ramadan, running into Ramadan for 3 days. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:27, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
I agree; it looks ready to me but I think Ikan has the timing right. I was pleasantly surprised when nominating D-Day beaches in May got it featured in June, but that was a special case, 70th anniversary, and we had at least a few weeks lead time. Here I do not think this year's Ramadan is special, the lead time is a negative number, and we'd have to dislodge the current FTT to put it in.
However, nominating it may get it useful attention and further improvements so I'd say go ahead anytime. Pashley (talk) 19:58, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
The nomination is up. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:51, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Map is not clear[edit]

It seems obviously rather close, but I find the colours confusing. My guess is that green indicates Sunni and red Shi'a, but the caption does not explain that. Why is Oman blue? Some things that might be shown are not: the Philippines has some largely Muslim areas, see Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao, and China has a significant Muslim minority everywhere, especially provinces like Xinjiang and Ningxia. Pashley (talk) 14:26, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

I was thinking the same that this map is not perfect. I don't think its good idea to mention Shia or Sunni majority countries. Rather, there should be only one colour rendering Muslim majority countries. I'll see If I can modify this map image. As for why Oman is blue. It is because majority of Oman population are neither belongs to Sunni or Shia denomination, they're actually belongs to Ibadi, a small denomination of Islam and I think they make half of the total population of Oman and in-fact state religion of Oman is Ibadi. As for mentioning Muslim majority regions, I'm not in favour of it. I would say lets go with Muslim-majority countries only instead of countries having largest Muslim populations. For instance, Singapore have 15% Muslims of total population, Bulgaria 13%, Russia 12%, Sri Lanka 9%, France 8%, Belgium, Thailand, Austria, Netherlands and Switzerland all have 6% Muslims population whereas Philippines only have 5 and China less than 2% Muslims. Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao and some region of Chine definitely are a Muslim majority region but to me, it doesn't make sense only colour only the regions. On the other hand, it would be very difficult to only colour the regions given that we don't have boundaries of subregions of countries on this map. --Saqib (talk) 18:37, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
I think the new map is great, and I congratulate you! I agree that it's not of crucial importance to be concerned about Muslim-majority regions of non-Muslim-majority countries. They can have the ramadandates template on the articles about them, thereby linking to this article. However, in Xinjiang, the Chinese authorities have been doing their best to prevent Muslims from observing Ramadan, so in that particular case, it would arguably be more instructive to point to their oppression than to observance of Islam. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:49, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, the new map is fine. Thanks for the quick response.
I think we do need a short explanation of at least the Sunni/Shi'a difference somewhere, probably in the Islam article rather than here. I'm not sure about others. Even in the West, one hears of Sufis and Dervishes and our Khyber Pass article mentions Deobandi and Wahabi. I've no idea if the Ismalis, Ibadi, Druze, ... merit a mention. Pashley (talk) 20:36, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Definitely, but that is not belongs here. I will try to start writing about it sometime soon. --Saqib (talk) 21:00, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Saqib. That content is relevant to Islam, not specifically to Ramadan, except inasmuch as Ramadan or Eid al-Fitr is celebrated differently by different sects of Islam, and if it is, I know nothing about that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:05, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
IK, actually Ramadan and Eids are among those occasions which are celebrated by all Islamic sects at the same time and in the same manner. I think its just like Christmas. --Saqib (talk) 21:25, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Arabic for "evening prayer"?[edit]

We mention Suhoor is "before the dawn (Fajr) prayer", and go on to "Iftar is the meal after sunset prayer". Why give the (I presume) Arabic term for one but not the other? If it does not matter to travellers, give neither and if it does give both. I'd say both; it likely does not matter much, but it may to some and adding it does not cause problems.

Also, should Suhoor and Iftar be italicised as foreign words? I'd be inclined to say they should, but I am almost certain they are used in English so I am not certain. Pashley (talk) 20:16, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Ramadan is over so I'm not very interested to work on this article anymore until next year when the month is around the corner. You're right, we can mention fasting breaks right at the time of Maghrib prayer. Iftar and Suhoor (or Sehri in Pakistan), both are Arabic words but I think both are widely used in English as well or in the Western world due to fact that Ramadan is belongs to Middle East/Muslim world so I don't think Westerners has created an English word for Iftar and Suhoor. --Saqib (talk) 20:31, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
I don't think it's essential to italicize Suhoor and Iftar, keeping in mind that Ramadan is also an Arabic word, but it might look nice, so if you feel like they should be italicized at their first appearance in the "Suhoor and Iftar" section, sure, go ahead. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:25, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Title[edit]

I'm not English speaker so I will seek opinion of others. I was giving a look at Google Trends whether which term is used widely between "Travel during Ramadan" and "Travelling during Ramadan" and it showed "Travel during Ramadan". But I'm not sure which one is grammatically correct. --Saqib (talk) 14:10, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

US usage can be travelling, other english speakers can be travel - as far as I can tell, also await others comments sats (talk) 15:15, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Aren't both versions OK? And we can always do a redirect for the other one. ϒpsilon (talk) 15:41, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Both versions OKAY for redirection but here I'm talking about which would be perfect title. --Saqib (talk) 15:58, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Yes, yes, I meant to say that I think both "Travel..." and "Travelling..." are equally correct English (however let's wait for a native English speaker). ϒpsilon (talk) 16:14, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Native English speaker here. "Travelling" is clearly preferable. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:26, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
I'd use "travel(l)ing." "Travel during Ramadan" seems British to me. But that means both are OK, as sats said. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:41, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Andre - good response - travelling is the clearer sense of a verb - during a particular period of time, travel can be both a verb and noun, which is where Ikan and Ypsilon are fine - and for Saqib - the notion of a 'perfect' usage, never possible in english - there are too many variants - see Wikipedia:WP:ENGVAR - its a jungle out there sats (talk) 14:25, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Images going below text[edit]

I hate to bring this up because I like all the images in the article, but at least on my browser (Firefox 38.0.5 on a laptop running Windows 8.1), the last picture is almost wholly beyond the text. I'm not sure how that happened. Do we have to remove an image? If so, I don't think it should be the Eid photo or the photo of Muslims waiting for moonrise. It might have to be the Ramadan dinner photo with all the people at the tables. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:32, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Looks fine here, Firefox on a Linux laptop. Pashley (talk) 12:40, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
Safari on Mac OS X and looking fine too. ϒpsilon (talk) 14:42, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
And from anyone else running Windows? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:35, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Rename to Ramadan[edit]

The excessive use of the phrase "travel" is a vestige of The Old Site. This page could be renamed to Ramadan for a shorter and more descriptive name. /Yvwv (talk) 18:20, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

The current name may not be shorter, but it's certainly more descriptive. The article isn't about Ramadan in general, it's about travel during Ramadan. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:40, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
We sure could shorten it by cutting of the "ling" and making it from a verb phrase into a noun phrase. By the way, the more efficient way to improve SEO seems to be to reduce "copied" content. But changing page titles might also help; I am no expert on that. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:54, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
I agree with AndreCarrotflower that it's good to use a title that makes it clear that the article isn't a general article about Ramadan, but also like Hobbitschuster's suggestion of changing to something like "Ramadan travel" or "Travel during Ramadan", which both has SEO advantages and eliminates the debate over how to spell "traveling". -- Ryan • (talk) • 19:05, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
I don't like "Travel during Ramadan", which sounds like a command in my dialect, but "Ramadan travel" is fine, if there's a consensus to rename the article, and it's shorter. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:33, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
Ramadan travel is better. Shorter, and less exposure to the overused word "travel". /Yvwv (talk) 23:18, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
Who says the word "travel" is overused on this site? Is that a personal opinion or is there consensus behind it? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:23, 18 January 2017 (UTC)