Wikivoyage talk:Vector 2022

The Vector 2022 skin as the default in two weeks?

Swept in from the pub

Moved from Wikivoyage:Travellers' pub/2022

The slides for our presentation at Wikimania 2022

Hello. I'm writing on behalf of the Wikimedia Foundation Web team. In two weeks, we would like to make the Vector 2022 skin the default on this wiki.

We have been working on it for the past three years. So far, it has been the default on more than 30 wikis, including sister projects, all accounting for more than 1 billion pageviews per month. On average 87% of active logged-in users of those wikis use Vector 2022.

It would become the default for all logged-out users, and also all logged-in users who currently use Vector legacy. Logged-in users can at any time switch to any other skins. No changes are expected for users of these skins.

• Top of an article
• 
  Vector legacy (current default)
• 
  Vector 2022

• A section of an article
• 
  Vector legacy (current default)
• 
  Vector 2022

About the skin

[Why is a change necessary] The current default skin meets the needs of the readers and editors as these were 13 years ago. Since then, new users have begun using Wikimedia projects. The old Vector doesn't meet their needs.

[Objective] The objective for the new skin is to make the interface more welcoming and comfortable for readers and useful for advanced users. It draws inspiration from previous requests, the Community Wishlist Surveys, and gadgets and scripts. The work helped our code follow the standards and improve all other skins. We reduced PHP code in Wikimedia deployed skins by 75%. The project has also focused on making it easier to support gadgets and use APIs.

[Changes and test results] The skin introduces a series of changes that improve readability and usability. The new skin does not remove any functionality currently available on the Vector skin.

• The sticky header makes it easier to find tools that editors use often. It decreases scrolling to the top of the page by 16%.
• The new table of contents makes it easier to navigate to different sections. Readers and editors jumped to different sections of the page 50% more than with the old table of contents. It also looks a bit different on talk pages.
• The new search bar is easier to find and makes it easier to find the correct search result from the list. This increased the amount of searches started by 30% on the wikis we tested on.
• The skin does not negatively affect pageviews, edit rates, or account creation. There is evidence of increases in pageviews and account creation across partner communities.

[Try it out] Try out the new skin by going to the appearance tab in your preferences and selecting Vector 2022 from the list of skins.

How can editors change and customize this skin?

It's possible to configure and personalize our changes. We support volunteers who create new gadgets and user scripts. Check out our repository for a list of currently available customizations, or add your own.

Our plan

If no large concerns are raised, we plan on deploying in the week of October 3, 2022. If your community would like to request more time to discuss the changes, hit the button and write to us. We can adjust the calendar.

Request for more time to discuss the change

Also, if you'd like ask our team anything, if you have questions, concerns, or additional thoughts, please ping me here or write on the talk page of the project. We will also gladly answer! See our FAQ. Thank you! SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 03:19, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Questions for the devs

@SGrabarczuk (WMF): Thank you for the presentation of the new skin, and for this period of consultation. There's a lot to take in.

I have a question: on most desktop versions of Wikivoyage (though not the one you tested on - de.voy), the table of contents of all mainspace articles appears in the pagebanner (Template:Pagebanner) at the top of the page. As I crudely understand it, the presence of a pagebanner on a WV page overrides the current default table of contents. Will this feature still work with the new, 'sticky' TOC? Your FAQs suggest they might not be compatible. (mw:Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements/Frequently asked questions#How can I get both the old and the new table of contents?). As far as I know (I'm not active on every project), the Wikivoyages are the only wikis to use pagebanners in this way. Have you tested the new skin on a wiki with pagebanners? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 07:38, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I switched to the new skin and it looks like both the pagebanner and sidebar TOCs work under the new skin. I do have a few observations:

• The new TOC can be hidden but I can't find a way to unhide it without reloading the page.
• The "sticky header" doesn't seem to work here -- the screenshot shows the search icon, page title, and other icons remaining at the top of the screen, but I don't see that here on Wikivoyage. Possibly because our page titles appear superimposed on our pagebanners?
• The reduced content width negatively affects the appearance of our pagebanners. In particular, the TOC text on them is now too small, but the banners themselves also appear too short (vertically); aesthetically they would look better taller.
• If there is *any* way we could get the pagebanners to stay at the top of the page as people scroll (the way the new TOC does) it would be awesome. If that could be done we could hide the new TOC by default.
• The new skin doesn't play well with the experimental Mobile Sidebar Preview gadget.

-- Powers ^(talk) 13:10, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I gave it a quick try and I think that I generally prefer the old skin.

• The larger left margin and some extra stuff at the top results in the page (at first) displaying less of the article - I prefer the old width of margin.
• I liked the way that the left margin disappeared (into a button) when I reduced the browser window size.
• I didn't like the language links now appearing as a drop down at the top of the page - this take up space and I have to click on the link to see what languages are available.
• The Wiki Love Monuments banner now displays across the full width of the page.
• The pub TOC (this page's TOC) now has a scroll bar. Many entries which were one line in the old skin now spill into two.
• When I scroll down in the pub, "Add Topic" is displayed on the static bar at the top, but not other editing tools. I wonder if this might result in new editors adding new topics when they just wanted to add to an exiting one.

I note that some other wikis have very high opt-out rates of active editors. Has any investiagtion been done as to why it is so high (90%) on viwikibooks? AlasdairW (talk) 14:40, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I've been using the 2022 for awhile and generally find it a vast improvement.

• 2022 Header is "sticky" on the pub, but not on article pages. Would be great to have it working everywhere.
• 2022 ToC is missing an "unhide" option as powers mentioned, but for me it's not a big deal.
• WV pagebanners have some display issues with the new theme which I have addressed for myself here and here. I got consensus to make some of these changes awhile ago, but not permission to edit the global CSS file. I'd be happy to apply any updates people want. Let me know if interested.
• The "stickyness" of pagebanners isn't important to me. The new ToC handles it well and takes up less screen real estate.
• Thank you for all the hard work putting vector 2022 together!

ButteBag (talk) 15:01, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

@ThunderingTyphoons!, @LtPowers, @AlasdairW, @ButteBag, thank you for your comments. You've shared a lot of good feedback to address! I very much respect that. It's a pleasure to see this much constructiveness. 🙇 Allow me to only address some points now, though.

• "Can't find a way to unhide it" - that may be a problem indeed. There are different situations:
  • In some namespaces, like Wikivoyage or Talk - there is the sticky header; when you collapse the ToC, the ToC icon appears next to the page title or in the sticky header.
  • In some namespaces, like main - there's no sticky header; the icon appears next to the page title or in the bar where the page title would be. So you need to go all the way to the top of the page. But if there's no page title, the icon is on the right side of the screen, next to the language switcher. Right now, I'm not sure if this is the best solution. I'll be happy to talk about that more.
• The appearance of our pagebanners - that's an interesting point. Any ideas what could improve this?
• Get the pagebanners to stay at the top of the page as people scroll - this is a bit beyond the skin itself, but let's keep talking.
• Mobile Sidebar Preview and other gadgets - we provide support to adjust gadgets, update their compatibility with API, and make them more future-proof.
• Banners being displayed at the full width - while limiting the content width helps readability, banners are "consumed" differently. There seemed to be no reason to change their width.
• High opt-out rate - we haven't done that. The results are relatively new, so we haven't had the opportunity to do that yet.

SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 21:29, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

So part of the issue is that we hide the page title and then use it superimposed on our pagebanners. So the fancy "keep the page title at the top" magic of Vector 2022 doesn't work right. Is there any way to identify the breadcrumb trail and pagebanner as parts of the page that should be kept at the top? I'd even be fine dropping the TOC from our pagebanners since the new TOC is off to the left, out of the way. Powers ^(talk) 22:45, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Discussion

Meanwhile the wikis are burning in my eyes due to the white background, because most software and systems support a dark mode nowadays, just the wiki world does not. As a workaround I wrote some dark mode styles which works almost fine on the most wikis here especially my home wiki voy/de. You can take a look there. If somebody is interested, there.., but your system has to be set to dark mode. My styles use a media query - and I use the nice timeless skin.

But anyway, I would recommend to you to remove all color and designs statements from your templates and use classes instead. we did it on voy/de and besides we use a voy- Prefix to avoid crashes with other classes. So you are prepared for future developments and the user have a better chance to create some own styles. I got the message here recently with color statements in the box and had no chance to read it. Drop me a line, if you need some help. Winter is coming and maybe I have some time. -- DerFussi 18:51, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

A bit concerned about the lack of discussion here, given the imminence of the change and the disruption to our page formats. Powers ^(talk) 21:35, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the alert. I didn't realize this change was in the works because I haven't scrolled through the pub in a while. I've just switched to Vector 2022 and I think it looks cleaner than the previous style. I'm noticing some quirks with the spacing that need changes, but given the near date of implementation, I'd suggest we implement the new style first, and then focus on ironing out the minor quirks? --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 21:55, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

To me, the worst problem with the current skin is the waste of screen real estate for the left column. I do sometimes need that stuff but do not want to pay what I see as exorbitant cost to get it. The new skin not only does not fix that, it makes it worse by widening the column. Pashley (talk) 01:52, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Are you concerned about the collapsible side bar (e.g., links to RecentChanges)? I tend to just collapse it and only open it when I need it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:18, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

I use the skin on de.voy whilst reading and I quite like it. However, one of the key issues is that our main page map doesn't cater the new skin. If someone can fix that, then I might use it. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 02:07, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Maybe I can take a look it as well and do some tests. I have switched to the new vector on this wiki and will look around everywhere. -- DerFussi 07:15, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Should we postpone the implementation? From my reading above, the issues aren't marginal, and having them fixed before implementation would avoid disruption (re-adjusting to some features being moved around is very frustrating). I don't have much to say otherwise, as I haven't been playing around much with Vector 2022 (and not at all on this site) and don't use legacy Vector, so comparing is difficult. –LPfi (talk) 08:15, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Support postponement. I'm still trying the skin out, and am pleased to see my concerns about the TOC in the banner were unfounded, but have noticed other issues that irritate:

• The listing template is H U G E, like the dialogues on an early 2000s PC game.
• Sister project links are absent.
• Interlanguage links are two clicks away instead of one.
• Essential sysop buttons like other users' contribution history and user rights tucked away god knows where.

Clearly many of those won't affect new or logged-out users, but the narrow pagebanners and weird listing editor definitely will.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:41, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

I also support postponement. As I mentioned earlier, the main page map gets cut off – you can't see anything east of Kerguelen / Heard Island and McDonald Islands. I don't have an issue with the not so large listing template, but maybe that's on my screen. Like tt!, I also have an issue with the narrow pagebanner. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 09:48, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Actually, never mind, the listing editor is really huge. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 09:49, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

I assume the sister project links are in the "main menu" together with the toolbox etc. also for you.

The rest of the left menu is less relevant for casual readers, but the language links (now in the top right corner) and the sister project links really add to what we are trying to serve readers. Moreover, while you can click the menu button for things like the permanent link or the Travellers' Pub when you need them, and the current menu icon placement may be natural for them, the sister project links are intimately connected to each article and you don't want to click the menu on and off for them. Should they be placed with the language links? ("2 languages<br/>3 other projects")

–LPfi (talk) 10:21, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

The listing editor seems to be about 150% zoom on my laptop. I don't entirely dislike it, but it is definitely big.

Sister links (e.g., Wikipedia) are in the collapsible left sidebar. Interlanguage links (e.g., German Wikivoyage) are at the top of the page. The top-of-page button gets used more, so if your goal is to increase traffic between the Wikivoyages, then the new location is better. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:23, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

The problem is that Wikipedia, Commons, Wikidata & al are hidden away together with entries that mostly interest regulars. They should be moved to be together with the language links. Especially Wikipedia is of interest for most readers, but I think all of the sister project links should be available without having the main menu visible all the time or clicking it on (and off) for every guide visited. –LPfi (talk) 15:36, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree with you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:58, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't like the language links being separated from the sister project links. The language links are now in the same place as on many other websites, but we are different from other websites which usually have the complete website translated into another language. We don't - we have a different website with different content. I think that occasional readers will come here, start reading the article on a major destination like London, choose their preferred language from the 20 available on that page, and then conclude that we don't have an article on Berwick-upon-Tweed because they haven't chosen one of the 3 languages that has a page for there. Keeping the language links next sister projects makes it clearer that they are different pages. AlasdairW (talk) 22:49, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Hello everyone. Thank you for these comments. I see that you're having a nice discussion, and you'd like to have more time. I'll definitely address your ideas for fixes. First though, I wanted you to know that we decided to start with a smaller number of even smaller wikis, Wikipedias only. I'm sorry for confusion! According to the current plan, we could make the change here in the week of October 17.

If you're interested in the project, I'm encouraging you to subscribe to the newsletter, and keep an eye on the timeline of deployments.

Thank you again. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 13:58, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Switching to the Vector 2022 skin: the final date

Swept in from the pub

A two minute-long video about Vector 2022

Hello everyone, I'm reaching out on behalf of the Wikimedia Foundation Web team responsible for the MediaWiki skins. I'd like to revisit the topic of making Vector 2022 the default here on English Wikivoyage. I did post a message about this two years ago, but we didn't finalize it back then.

What happened in the meantime? We built dark mode and different options for font sizes, and made Vector 2022 the default on most wikis, including all other Wikivoyages. With the not-so-new V22 skin being the default, existing and coming features, like dark mode and temporary accounts respectively, will become available for logged-out users here.

If you're curious about the details on why we need to deploy the skin soon, here's more information

* Due to releases of new features only available in the Vector 2022 skin, our technical ability to support both skins as the default is coming to an end. Keeping more than one skin as the default across different wikis indefinitely is impossible. This is about the architecture of our skins. As the Foundation or the movement in general, we don't have the capability to develop and maintain software working with different skins as default. This means that the longer we keep multiple skins as the default, the higher the likelihood of bugs, regressions, and other things breaking that we do not have the resources to support or fix.   Vector 2022 has been the default on almost all wikis for more than a year. In this time, the skin was proven to provide improvements to readers while also evolving. After we built and deployed on most wikis, we added new features, such as the Appearance menu with the dark mode functionality. We will keep working on this skin, and deployment doesn't mean that existing issues will not be addressed. For example, as part of our work on the Accessibility for Reading project, we built out dark mode, changed the width of the main page back to full (T357706), and solved issues of wide tables overlapping the right-column menus (T330527). Vector legacy's code is not compatible with some of the existing, coming, or future software. Keeping this skin as the default would exclude most users from these improvements. Important examples of features not supported by Vector legacy are: the enriched table of contents on talk pages, dark mode, and also temporary account holder experience which, due to legal reasons, we will have to enable. In other words, the only skin supporting features for temporary account holders (like banners informing "hey, you're using a temp account") is Vector 2022. If you are curious about temporary accounts, read our latest blog post.

So, we will deploy Vector 2022 here in three weeks, in the week of November 25. If you think there are any significant technical issues, let us know. We will talk and may make some changes, most likely after the deployment. Thank you! SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 16:22, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

@SGrabarczuk (WMF), click here: https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Grinnell?useskin=vector-2022 and take a look at the missing page title. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:35, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I see it on desktop, it's in the pagebanner. Do you mean the lack of a "floating" page title bar? Using Template:Pagebanner seems to disable it. The issue is probably fundamentally with Extension:WikidataPageBanner and/or its CSS. There's an open bug report since 2022. Either that, or the floating bar hasn't been enabled for the main namespace. Daggerstab (talk) 09:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm primarily concerned about the big empty space that I've marked here. It looks odd.

Additionally, while I don't think we necessarily want "wide width", we might want a wider default, and to have these sidebars start off collapsed. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:52, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

That's an inevitable result of the Pagebanner extension suppressing the article title. And apparently it's made bigger by a placeholder box for the site notice? I don't know if the languages menu can be repositioned via CSS or some skin settings. Daggerstab (talk) 22:23, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

@Daggerstab, WhatamIdoing: I was already writing my thoughts in reply to the Pagebanner-Vector2022 compatibility, but I'll do that separately. The part of it that applies here, is that having the text size set as standard blows a lot of elements, and makes many others (like the pagebanner) considerably smaller in comparison, to where some templates are simply unusable. Setting the text to be 'small' instead, results in a version of Vector2022 that more or less everything we know and love from old-Vector, except styled it's like an early-2020s website instead of a late-1990s website.

― Wauteurz (talk) 22:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Reading this back, and Christ does it look like my head was turned off. None of what I said is really relevant to this discussion. My apologies for that.

I think I meant to raise the fact that, yes, MW:Extension:WikipediaPageBanner does conflict with Vector2022's floating title, and that a patch (Phab:T306744) is being worked on, seemingly close to being finalised. That said, I think my note of the small text setting making Vector2022 look more familiar to those still used to old-Vector does hold true. It distorts templates and extensions considerably less, but making the point here was a tad irrelevant. :)
― Wauteurz (talk) 22:18, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

That patch was me, BTW. I didn't wait until the weekend. Daggerstab (talk) 06:31, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm still opposed to this change – what exactly has changed for Wikivoyage since. What you seemed to have mentioned in your post doesn't seem to resolve any of the Wikivoyage-specific issues. --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 04:18, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I looked at the linked old discussion, and there seem to be no site-breaking issues. Some CSS changes might be necessary to preserve pagebanner height, and perhaps the skin's default page width should be set to "wide". The only major issue is the missing floating title bar, and it's mainly an issue because the button for unhiding the side menu goes there when the menu is hidden. (See my other comment about the pagebanner extension bug report.) Daggerstab (talk) 09:49, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I did some technical investigation of the issue and posted a comment to that bug report. If nobody does anything until the weekend, I can actually go through the whole rigamarole of setting up a MediaWiki development environment and try to submit a fix myself. Daggerstab (talk) 12:18, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

SHB, the question here is what's going to change for Wikivoyage soon. If we don't switch, stuff's going to start breaking, and when we complain, they're going to say "Well, we told you that we weren't going to keep supporting that 15-year-old skin forever. It's your own fault if you decided to use old software after we warned you." WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:54, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Right, I see – doesn't help that we're considered an afterthought here. --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 21:04, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

No, we're a "first thought"; that's why they're warning us in advance. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:44, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

If we were truly a first thought, the issues brought up would have been fixed 2 years back, not now. --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 03:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Asking out of curiosity more than anything, but what according to you are the issues that were brought up that haven't yet been fixed? I can't seem to identify ones that haven't yet been mended or at least touched on. The only things that I can see not having been addressed, weren't within Vector2022's scope to begin with.
― Wauteurz (talk) 22:11, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I do prefer Vector2022 over old-Vector, but only once modified. My main grope with Vector2022 as it stands, is that it breaks all of Wikivoyage's UI and layout balance. This is because of two factors: Scaling, and compatibility. Scaling is an issue since Vector2022 blows up the proportions of UI elements to where there's barely any room left to fit content (as @WhatamIdoing's screenshot above demonstrates). Compatibility is an issue as Wikivoyage articles depend on MW:Extension:WikidataPageBanner, and it is not yet updated to be entirely compatible with Vector2022, although a patch fixing the lack of a floating bar is currently being tested. Floating the pagebanner at the top of the page in place of the floating title bar I don't think is a feature that's being worked on, but the TOC is in the sidebar anyway - so that's not much of an issue.

Also, I would implore anyone still against or on the fence about Vector2022 to use, to enable it, customise that scaling so it doesn't break every template's proportions, and use it for a week or two. Yes, it takes some time to find where things have moved, but you'll also find that having, for example, a TOS on the sidebar is a massive quality of life improvement.

I personally would only support Vector2022 being rolled out here once the floating bar is fixed (which shouldn't take that long), and if Wikivoyage's default appearance uses the 'small' text option so we don't have to rethink our whole layout as a result of Vector2022.

The way I see it, Vector2022 definitely is the way forward, and the skin doesn't need anything additional for us that I am aware of. But despite that, other extensions, modules, &c, that we use, are not yet fully compatible with it, so we're not in a position to make the switch yet. Give it a few more months, and we should be there.

― Wauteurz (talk) 23:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Excessive whitespace above the (hidden) title

The issue noticed by @WhatamIdoing above is partially caused by a placeholder that remains after the sitenotice banner is collapsed. On my display, it's 24 px high, either because it has a fixed height in CSS (which doesn't seem the case), or because it has some kind of actual content, a default banner - a div containing a "<!-- CentralNotice -->" comment. Someone with more user rights than me should look into that.--Daggerstab (talk) 09:28, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

The new skin

Swept in from the pub

Really does a disfavor to Wikivoyage I think. I feel strongly that the banner set the mood for the entire article, and it's so de-emphasized now, shrunk to oblivion in a lot of cases, at least on desktop. There is nothing practical about this post, just a whine. Brycehughes (talk) 03:55, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm with you mate – Vector 2022 has so many issues that it's never the same anymore. I just use Vector 2010 globally but I do recognize that unregistered users don't have this option. If only the WMF cared about us... SHB2000 (t | c | m) 04:43, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah and unregistered users are who we want to appeal to. We're not Wikipedia (age old gripe, I know). It sucks because we had this brand appeal and this new skin really devalues it. Crazy idea but could we... uh.. opt out of the default skin? Brycehughes (talk) 04:52, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Good idea! I was suddenly surprised by it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:18, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

The banner partially defined Wikivoyage, am I right? It set the tone for every article that had one, and every article that didn't have one longed for one. I'm wondering if I should make a new non-gripe post. I think just for our viability we should go back to the old skin, set that as the default for all readers. Brycehughes (talk) 05:24, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Specially for people who cannot easy change to a totally new user-interface, 2022 is a problem. What used to be "go to A, then press B, and you are there"; now it is "go to P, open submenu Q, then press R, and you are there". FredTC (talk) 05:53, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

FredTC I'm sorry what do you mean? What is A/B, P/Q/R? Brycehughes (talk)

One I remember (but there are more) is "go to the top of the page, then press Preferences, and you are there", which is in 2022 "go to the top of the page, then open the submenu that is under the puppet, then click Preferences, and you are there". --FredTC (talk) 06:11, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I agree but that is more like habituated user/editor stuff. I'm just talking the general/market appeal of this website. The new skin scrapes that away. Brycehughes (talk) 06:44, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek: If you want the 2010 skin back right now, go to Special:GlobalPreferences#mw-prefsection-rendering and click "Vector legacy (2010)" – if you just want it on the English Wikivoyage (and not other sites including enwiki or Commons), follow the same but on Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering. Let me know if you need any further help with this. --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 07:27, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

I would rather the old skin be the default for all readers. Is there a way to make that happen? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:12, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

That would've required us to oppose at #c-SGrabarczuk_(WMF)-20241106162200-Switching_to_the_Vector_2022_skin:_the_final_date; seems no one took my concerns seriously. --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 08:20, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Rejection of Vector2022 wasn't within the list of available options in that thread. Yes, we are being force-fed the change, I can agree on that much, but only about that much. I would say we've shot ourselves in the foot (if not both feet) by ignoring Vector2022 up until now. It was posed as the new definitive look of Wikimedia projects from the get-go. We knew this was coming but didn't want to believe it.

Furthermore, we've had about two years to make ourselves ready for this skin. To have Vector2022 on Wikivoyage be optimised and configured to where it works with our visual brand. Did we? I think this discussion and the one from a few weeks ago show that we haven't. Vector2022 will be here to say, whether we like it or not. Whine your heart out for a week, and after that... The skin seems plenty modifiable and brings genuinely useful changes, so why don't we give it a shot? Try to make it work for us?
― Wauteurz (talk) 13:06, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm of the belief that it should be up to the WMF developers to make sure a site (or a major component of it) literally doesn't break, not us as volunteers, which the WMF failed to do. SHB2000 (t | c | m) 22:51, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

In principle, they could have been more involved at the very least, yes. Still, WMF hasn't been very dedicated to communicating with us, aside from posting announcements here and the occasional "I'll relay this". In hindsight, I'd still say that we should've picked up on this happening at some point down the line, and taken action ourselves. Wikivoyage is a collaborative effort, after all.

At the end of the day, we as editors value Wikivoyage more than anyone developing skins for WMF would. To them, we're just another stubborn client. We can be sour about that all we want, but that solves nothing. Just letting it be will probably just bring damage to Wikivoyage's readership in the long run...

I say we swallow this bitter apple, and work on modifying the CSS files mentioned below to where Vector2022 can be used here in a way that we're happy with. That might possibly be worth coordinating through something like the UX Expedition, so we can manage wishes and solutions clearly? ― Wauteurz (talk) 23:28, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, while the WMF did poorly handle this, I think your solution is the best course of action for now. --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 23:47, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

What about changing MediaWiki:Common.css and adding e.g. ".wpb-banner-image { min-height: 250px; object-fit: cover; }" ? We can surely skin WV to our preferences, no? You can first try to modify it locally (either via DevTools, or via Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering -> "Custom CSS"), and then we can vote what mods we can do globally... -- andree 09:04, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

I think the WMF folks made it obvious in the discussion above that we cannot opt out – they will not maintain old skins for general use. Users with accounts can set their skin in their preferences (I still use Monobook), but the worry is about casual or otherwise non-registered users.

We could tweak Common.css, but it might be difficult to change the banner width without breaking things (like hiding important menus at some browser window sizes or on some devices). If somebody feels confident, then absolutely, give it a try.

–LPfi (talk) 10:33, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

How about just modifying Vector2022-specific things in MediaWiki:Vector-2022.css? Documentation (of some sort) can be found here. Furthermore, some userscripts that can inspire how we end up implementing Vector2022 can be found here.
― Wauteurz (talk) 12:44, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

I have been tweaking my own instance of Vector a bit tonight. If anyone wants to take it for a spin, go to Special:MyPage/common.css and insert the following two lines:

/* Importing Wauteurz' common.css */

@import url('https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=User:Wauteurz/common.css&action=raw&ctype=text/css');

Please note the assumed configurations of Vector 2022 listed at the top - You'll have to set those yourself.

It makes some minimal changes that make Vector 2022 more condensed, and makes the sidebars more legible. It's a bit unorthodox, straight up breaking site notices, but it's mostly for illustration purposes anyways. :)
― Wauteurz (talk) 01:13, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Making Vector 2022 work for us

Vector 2022 is probably here to stay, so it's better to make something of it rather than to just be miffed about it. I've added a section to the UX Expedition to track desired changes to the skin. My own CSS skills are rusty, and my JS skills are close to non-existent, so if you're able to help modify this skin, please chime in. If you have any issues with Vector, then please add them to the tasklist. For those just wanting some quick and dirty fixes and tweaks to Vector 2022 for the time being, feel free to use my common.css for yourself.
― Wauteurz (talk) 16:56, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

And, at the risk of being pedantic, all logged in users have five options for skins to use. I personally have been on MonoBook since it was introduced and have no problems with it. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:18, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't consider it pedantic. However, Vector 2022 replaces Vector 2010, and switching back to it or any other available skin in response to that is like putting your head in the sand. The average reader of Wikivoyage will be presented with Vector 2022 whether we like it or not. Vector 2022 should therefore be the baseline for which we develop the website, and essential to that is that Vector 2022 looks and works the way in which we want it to. Of course anyone is free to choose whichever skin they want, and it's great that MonoBook works for you. The average reader though, isn't aware of the existence of skins. They'll assume that the site they're presented with, is the way it's meant to be. If Vector 2022 breaks things on Wikivoyage, then it's therefore in our interest to make Vector 2022 work, even if we do not use the skin ourselves.
― Wauteurz (talk) 17:48, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, of course, but I'm just responding to how you mentioned editing one's own common.css: that also by definition will not change things for other users. I'm just pointing out that if you personally want your own experience to be different and aren't someone who knows stuff about CSS or JavaScript, changing your skin will probably fix whatever problems you have with Vector 2022. To the extent that Vector 2022 is a problem for en.voy in general and not-logged-in users, there need to be different solutions, but this is a solution for logged-in users that is pretty frictionless. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:58, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Ah, gotcha! I didn't catch that link myself. To be entirely clear about it: I'm working on some rough fixes in my common.css, but that doesn't mean that everyone should use it as their common.css. The talk page that it links to explains to either enable it in common.css, or vector-2022.css, as well as what differentiates them. If you plan to solely use Vector 2022 (like I have done for the past two years), then which one you choose doesn't matter. If you occasionally switch between Vector 2022 and another skin, then vector-2022.css should be the place to install it.

The eventual goal is to roll some of these fixes in my common.css, or more polished versions of them, into the site-wide vector-2022.css file, thereby making it a fix for all users. I mostly just linked that option because I reckoned there would be people out there that want to give Vector 2022 a shot. In that case, that stylesheet helps fix some of the most complained-about issues we currently have with Vector 2022. :)
― Wauteurz (talk) 19:27, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Wauteurz My primary concern (currently) is the page banner image, and I think your tweak to it is a good compromise. Is there some place I can express my support for getting this change (at least eventually) incorporated? Brycehughes (talk) 23:41, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

@Brycehughes: Thank you! I cannot claim that banner tweak though. I've copied it from ButteBag's CSS files.

I've set up a vote here for pushing the changes to MediaWiki:vector-2022.css. The vote is on the entirety of changes in my common.css. If there's any changes in there that you don't agree with pushing, such as the visual tweaks for example, please mention them in your comment. We then won't push those, and we can have a discussion about those separately at a later stage.
― Wauteurz (talk) 00:22, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Wauteurz Cool! Thank you. I can set your css in this browsing window and then compare it with a private browsing window. Is the some article you can suggest that would allow a decent diff for many of your tweaks? Brycehughes (talk) 00:30, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

There isn't a singular page that shows everything. Tweaks to the header, sticky header, sidebars and footer can be seen on any page. TOC and Discussion Tools changes can best be seen in the pub. Some visual changes (like using stylistically consistent icons in pagebanners) can only be seen on previously featured articles. Other changes are only visible when logged in (Gold watchlist star, more prominent logout button).

In any case, I have made a summary of my changes. If you can't find any of them, let me know and I'll point you in the direction. ― Wauteurz (talk) 00:47, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Since my userpage uses a banner anyways, I've added the icons to it, so you can compare all of them. I'll quickly change the star as well. I'd forgotten about that one.
― Wauteurz (talk) 00:50, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Re: watch list gold star... it didn't used to be gold did it? What motivates the change to gold? I'm not opposed to it, just wondering if this CSS is more an attempt to restore 2010 feel or a package of other wishlist items. Brycehughes (talk) 00:56, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

It's one of the branding and colour changes. Those come in two varieties:

• Making Wikivoyage slightly more distinct from other Wikimedia projects. Our compass logo has nice arrows, so I used a singular one for the sidebar's TOC.
• Because I find Vector 2022 a bit bland with the blue-and-black-on-white motif. In response to that, I coloured some arguably important things like the golden watchlist star and big, fat, bold "Log out"-button.

Also, RE: Pagebanners. A better fix for its compatibility is still in the works for as far as I know. I don't think fixing it forever will have an effect if the extension likely will have been altered for the exact same purposes by next month.

Let's also not spam the Pub too much with questions about these proposed changes. Please start a topic on the relevant talk page if you have more questions, and I'll answer them tomorrow after I've had my beauty sleep :D ― Wauteurz (talk) 01:06, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Yep, no worries. Thanks for your answers on this. I generally I support changes that go back to the 2010 feel of this website (conservative is the name of the game usually here). I'm not sure I support newer differentiating tweaks so much (although I certainly don't oppose them... they're just unfamiliar). I can cast my qualified vote now. Thanks again and have a good sleep. Brycehughes (talk) 01:09, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

No worries! I get that the switch can be radical to some, and all change takes some time to get used to. Familiarity is something most people depend on, so we can't fault each other for that. Hence also why I don't really want to rush this, but give people time to adjust and see what they do and don't like. There's no rush to vote from my side :)

I'll probably make some comparison screenshots of every change between regular Vector 2022 and my alterations tomorrow so that even people who don't want to use Vector 2022 can have their say about the proposed changes. If an Admin or Bureaucrat can tell me whether I should upload those locally or on Commons, then that'd be appreciated.
― Wauteurz (talk) 01:17, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

A couple more things re banners. What is the current Vector2022 aspect ratio... did they keep it at 7:1? I see yours sets it to 5:1. In either case, I assume this means WV:BANNER needs to be updated from the 7:1 advice? (And what does this mean for all existing 7:1 banners? I assume object-fit:cover means that things won't look how they once looked... I think I see the trade-off hmm) Brycehughes (talk) 00:34, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

If it can, the banner will try to display at 7:1. It does so on my end anyway. I haven't checked if ButteBag's fix takes origins of the images into consideration, but assuming that it does, we can emphasise that people define the origin point for their banners, which can be done within the template itself. ― Wauteurz (talk) 00:37, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I see: "at least a 5:1 aspect ratio"... I'm not clever enough with CSS to know how that works. I think that solution is as good as we can do and we'll need to publicize it. Brycehughes (talk) 00:46, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Democratic Republic of the Congo... the page banner there is still so sadly crowded and disappointing now. Anyway, I suppose this is just about cutting our losses. Brycehughes (talk) 00:54, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Technical feedback

I left some feedback purely from a technical perspective User_talk:Wauteurz/common.css#Feedback_from_an_interface_admin. Jdlrobson (talk) 06:46, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

RFC: Enable responsive mode?

I'd like to propose making the Vector 2022 skin responsive. Most sites these days are responsive and the new skin responds well to being resized. The current experience of seeing a zoomed out version of the Vector skin is not great.

If you want to see what that experience looks like, please load https://wikifunctions.org on a mobile browser, which currently supports this mode.

Per wikitech:Wikimedia_site_requests this just needs a discussion and agreement to make the change. Not sure what consensus here would look like but happy to do one if that's the correct process? Jdlrobson (talk) 06:49, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Vector2022, belaboured

Swept in from the pub

I want to point anyone interested in the recent Vector2022 skin changes to this: User talk:Wauteurz/common.css#Support for site-wide integration. Wauteurz seems to have put a non-trivial amount of effort into implementing a set of tweaks to Vector2022 that help keep the both the usability and the spirit of this website alive, as well as a non-trivial amount of effort into making the tweaks understandable to us editors (via screenshots). I think they deserve our attention. Brycehughes (talk) 02:15, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the PSA, @@Brycehughes. I just want to add that this is a very non-trivial change. I know many of us hate Vector 2022, and have already set the old Vector as their default skin. I've no issues with that, but I would implore all of you, even those that hate Vector 2022 with a burning passion, to give Vector 2022, with and without these changes, the light of day. Our target audience sees Wikivoyage with this skin as per last week, so it's essential that it looks the way we want. If Vector 2022 remains as broken as it is, then I can see it driving traffic away from the site. And well, what's Wikivoyage without readers?

If anyone needs help with enabling Vector 2022, enabling my changes on your end, or anything else to do with this skin, then please find me on my talk page. Wikivoyage is our project, so it's in everyone's interest that Vector 2022 gets tweaked and fixed well, so I want to make sure everyone can formulate their own opinion about my tweaks by experiencing them for themselves.
― Wauteurz (talk) 09:09, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Seems like it's crickets so far, unfortunately. I've long thought this website pretty conservative when it comes to change (for good or for worse), but perhaps that's a misdiagnosis, because Vector2022 is pretty radical, and the conservative option would support a slight shift it back to how it was before. Yet, crickets. Perhaps it's less conservatism but more a "beauracratism"... acceptance and willingness to work within both that which has existed before and that which is bestowed from upon high. This isn't a criticism of this website (which I love), just an observation. It's too bad though – the new banner formats suck. Brycehughes (talk) 05:09, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure how this was in the past (10-15 years ago), but it seems there are like 5-10 people discussing technical things around here, nowadays. So I'd say, the best strategy is to bring a feature up to a good quality, deploy it - and then gather feedback. Usually there will +- be none, unless you break stuff... -- andree 13:04, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up, I've left my votes there. I've been trying out the new skin for a while now, and over-all I've grown to like it. Dark mode is a game changer for me, so I'd gladly accept a few imperfections here and there - but the proposed adaptions alleviate some of those. El Grafo (talk) 11:27, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I wrote this elsewhere, but if you want to improve Vector 2022 for Wikivoyage - particularly the banner, please create Phabricator tickets. This is how things get done and how developers hear about the problems that impact you.

The majority of tickets mentioning wikivoyage have been resolved:

https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/search/query/AgRvywEVbccj/#R

Only three remain open and I am aware that one of those has an open patch.

Perhaps filing some tickets based on the conversations you are having now and issues you are finding will yield better results and get Wikivoyage back to where you want it to.

It might also be worth involving the views of other Wikivoyage language projects to see if these are English Wikivoyage specific gripes or Wikivoyage gripes.

The changes suggested to the banner itself by Wauteurz, look great FWIW and I don't see why those would be controversial if a developer posted a patch to the codebase. Jdlrobson (talk) 16:47, 6 December 2024 (UTC)