Talk:Tipping

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This article contains content imported from the English Wikipedia article on Tip (gratuity). View the page revision history for a list of the authors.

Intent with this page[edit]

I created this page because it is or should be important to travellers. I compiled it from my notes and from new and older versions of wikipedia, because wikipedia is deleting valuable material because it is unsourced and "original research" ( read added by locals who know the customs).

Please help by checking, correcting and adding stuff for your own country or countries you are familiar with the customs.

Another idea is leaving the general info here, and including the country specific information to the countries and addin a link there to the generic info ( if doing that I would prefer a seperate section for it). But i'm not sure if that would be better or worse. Any thougts or inputs? —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) User:Swissbelg (talkcontribs)

Great travel topic idea! Local tipping customs is a question for me everywhere I travel, and it would be nice to have this as a detailed, comprehensive reference. I'll do a bit of work at least on the U.S. conventions. (By the way, you can auto-sign your posts by typing four tildes at the end like so: ~~~~.) --(WT-en) Peter Talk 17:07, 6 January 2011 (EST)
Inas suggested that we move the country specific info to the country articles, which i find a very good idea. My only problem is that there is not really an appropriate section. The topic belongs to "Buy", "Eat", "Drink", "Sleep", and especially also to "Respect" in certain countries. A Solution could be an own section, the question is, is it important enough for that? I know to some travellers it is, to others not. It certainly would raise the possibility that someone adds content if there is an empty topic. Thoughts anyone? (WT-en) Swissbelg 06:21, 7 January 2011 (EST)
It's own section I don't think is a good idea. In the United States of America article, it is under Buy, which makes perfect sense as tipping is always done when buying. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 11:18, 9 January 2011 (EST)
All good to me. Anyway i'm gonna watch this page for a while before moving stuff to see if it gets used and updated and till i have time to move all the stuff at once. (WT-en) Swissbelg 09:36, 22 January 2011 (EST)
Leave it to the New Zealand section to make tipping advice a pretense for bashing the United States. Americans did not invent tipping, and besides, no one would think that Egyptian tipping customs are some broad indictment of Egyptian society! 69.171.160.101

$1 per 2 drinks in the US?[edit]

Wherever I've been in the US, that's been a disgraceful, even hostile tip. But I didn't want to simply revert an edit without discussion. Are there really parts of the US where it's actually acceptable in 2011 to tip so low in cheap bars? If so, where? (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 05:03, 5 July 2011 (EDT)

Spare time any American?[edit]

MOVED HERE FROM TRAVELLER'S PUB I did an article on Tipping, any of you Americans have a little spare time to check the US part of it. For me this part is rather complicated ;-) —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Swissbelg (talkcontribs)

A link to the article would be useful. (WT-en) LtPowers 16:30, 6 January 2011 (EST)
I am sooo sorry ;-) ---> Tipping <--- (WT-en) Swissbelg 17:06, 6 January 2011 (EST)
Seriously, why don't we put this information in the relevant country articles. What use is a common travel topic like this? It just duplicates stuff, we already have a USA#Tipping, which is a good guide. Similarly Australia#Tipping --(WT-en) inas 17:42, 6 January 2011 (EST)
Oh, the usual "everything is a bad idea" fraction is awake;-). Feel free to read the discussion page as well. The "Understand" section is the most important part btw, and copying that into every article is not so practical... (WT-en) Swissbelg 18:10, 6 January 2011 (EST)
I don't accept that my opinion is that everything is a bad idea, and I do find that aside offensive. I have read the article, and the discussion. You are asking for someone from the U.S. to review information on tipping in a new article, when many many people from the U.S and elsewhere have already worked collaboratively to make the current USA#Tipping section. Have you read that section of the USA article? --(WT-en) inas 19:05, 6 January 2011 (EST)
Good, that was intentional. Just wanted to take the needle out and sting back. I find your comment unappreciating and showing of not much collaborative spirit. What about "Nice work, but did you know there is already..."? No i didn't, I searched for tipping and results were nill. In most countries there is nothing about it, And there was also no travel topic about it, so i thought i "plunge forward". The Travel topic is meant as complementary background information, not just a list of "tip that much for this service, tip that much for that service". If you personally don't need this information, don't read it. (WT-en) Swissbelg 21:11, 6 January 2011 (EST)
I have no wish to prick anyone with needles, nor do I feel I have been stung. If I inadvertantly offended you I am sorry to have done so. I was merely trying to make my point concisely, so again, apologies if you saw my comment as terse.
However, I am still criticising the need for an article in the current form, so please do not take it personally.
Okay, back to the topic at hand. Now that we are both aware of the tipping sections in the articles, do you see the my reasoning for not duplicating that info? It is true enough that many articles don't have sections on tipping, but there is certainly nothing stopping us adding the info if we have it. Maybe we can modify the tipping article so it makes users aware of the tipping sections in the travel guides. --(WT-en) inas
Sorry as well,i didn't mean it that seriously. To the topic: I stated in the discussion part myself that i collected the information, and now we should find a place for it. I find your idea perfect to move it to the articles and making the users aware of it in there. Details we can discuss over the there in Talk:Tipping. (WT-en) Swissbelg 06:10, 7 January 2011 (EST)
Avoiding duplication with tipping information in destination guides is certainly sensible. But there are two advantages to the separate tipping article that I would prefer not to lose: 1) it is clear for which countries we lack the info, which should encourage a more rapid development of that information; 2) when necessary, we can have longer, more detailed sections. Point two could be satisfied by perhaps only splitting the information out for the most complex tipping cultures (basically, just the U.S.). --(WT-en) Peter Talk 23:16, 8 January 2011 (EST)

I don't see how having a travel topic makes it clear at all whether we have the info or not. There could be info in the travel topic, and not in the article, or info in the article, but not in the travel topic. This is the issue with duplicating info in two places. On a small site with limited resources, updating the info back and forth is a bad use of scarce resource, and likely to fall out of date quickly. --(WT-en) inas 17:05, 9 January 2011 (EST)

Peter has a point there. In an article people are not explicitly looking for it, in a travel topic they are. People have already started adding information btw. I don't know too much about the software behind wiki, i guess there is no way to link both together? (WT-en) Swissbelg 04:59, 10 January 2011 (EST)
There are bits of magic within mediawiki can interpolate text, but they aren't pretty or easy to maintain, and we don't generally use them here.
Some things, like Scuba diving, are another way of looking at travel. You can look at the places to dive and then decide on where to go. Tipping isn't like that - it is a fact about the destination.
Oh, but you can do that, that's why i don't travel to the US ;-P (Just kidding) (WT-en) Swissbelg 10:00, 14 January 2011 (EST)
So I dispute that people aren't going to be specifically looking for it in a destination guide. It is exactly where people will go to find out information about tipping at a destination. --(WT-en) inas 23:33, 10 January 2011 (EST)
Once again:i have no problems moving it to the articles, i just wanted to discuss it with you guys first. Mind if i move this discussion to the page's talk page? (WT-en) Swissbelg 10:00, 14 January 2011 (EST)
  • In my opinion, I think both viewpoints have merit, and don't have to be mutually exclusive. I like this article as an overview of tipping practices. I also think having info at specific location articles would be useful. I think the goal of having info available is more important that worrying about having a bit of duplication in more than one place, so let's have the info both here and in the country/location articles where practical. (WT-en) Infrogmation 15:12, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

Duplication between this article and country articles[edit]

I updated Tipping#Madagascar, but since that same information is needed in Madagascar#Tipping I simply copied the info to the country article. It seems that this approach would be the same for all countries, with text needing to be copied verbatim in two places. Instead of having two pages that will likely get out of sync quickly, would it make sense to have a single source of content for each country that is then transcluded into both articles? Something like:

[[Tipping/Madagascar]]

...that would then be included under both Tipping#Madagascar and Madagascar#Tipping as follows:

{{:Tipping/Madagascar}}

The upside of this approach is that you only have to edit content in one place for each country, and the info would stay in sync. The downside is that it is slightly more difficult to edit the content since someone who edits from anywhere other than the tipping section heading will need to track down the actual content source in the sub-page - for example: if you click "edit" from Madagascar#Buy instead of Madagascar#Tipping then you would see {{:Tipping/Madagascar}} in the source, instead of the actual text about tipping (note, however, that clicking "edit" next to the "Tipping" sub-section should take you directly to the tipping content on the sub-page). Thoughts? Can we give it a try for Madagascar as an example and see what people think? -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:55, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Given the lack of objection I created Tipping/Madagascar and implemented it for both Tipping#Madagascar and Madagascar#Tipping. The implementation could use a bit of cleanup to ensure that any further usage is standardized, but otherwise this seems like a nice way to ensure that content stays in sync. Thoughts or comments? -- Ryan • (talk) • 14:30, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Could we discuss this in traveller's pub. I see your point on not having to type twice but this creates a whole new set of page types which we need to decide how to track. --Traveler100 (talk) 10:32, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Comments solicited from Pub#Avoiding content duplication. I've also implemented the experimental Template:Tipping content as a template that is now used by Tipping/Madagascar to demonstrate how other countries could implement the same functionality. -- Ryan • (talk) • 13:59, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm worried that this approach is overly complex; it makes it harder for novice editors to edit these sections. But moreover, I think it glosses over the real issue: unnecessary duplication. I don't see any point to having an article (this one) that simply duplicates the Tipping sections of various country articles. No one is ever going to use (or need to read) all of the content in this article, which is a strong indicator that the article needs to have a more general focus rather than drilling into specifics. Powers (talk) 14:36, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree. The country specifics belong in the country articles. I think what should be in this article is what types of customs exist, in very general terms, mostly so that a traveller realizes the local customs have to be checked, but also as entertaining reading and a general intro for somebody going to visit many countries. Customs common for groups of countries could perhaps be described referring to the group, but such references should not break the text flow. --LPfi (talk) 16:56, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
This approach would help the redundancy of content seen in the new Water article. Andrewssi2 (talk) 21:37, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
I mostly agree, although I can see a use for the content at Water: a reader might want to select a destination that has drinkable water. That's a bit of a stretch, though. Powers (talk) 23:16, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
If I'm reading the above discussion correctly (as well as previous discussions on this talk page), the next step would be to move all of the country-specific info to the Buy → Tipping sub-section of the country articles? If that's the case then the proposed solution for duplicate content would be unnecessary. Are there any objections to that approach, or alternate proposals? -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:15, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
I support moving all the country specifics to the country articles and making this just an overview. Texugo (talk) 12:29, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
Per the above, I've deleted my proposed template and sub-page and begun moving the country-specific tipping information to the country pages. I finished moving content for Africa - if anyone wants to help out with other countries please do so. -- Ryan • (talk) • 02:55, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
Yes Done -- Ryan • (talk) • 02:27, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Where to take this article[edit]

I assume there was once a list of countries and their tipping habits, that has now been taken out of the article. As it is now it will probably never be more than an outline, as there is only so much to say about tipping in general without giving specific examples of specific countries (which the text already kinda does and then doesn't). So here is my question: Where do we want this article to go? What should or shouldn't be in it and should or should it not be deleted and replaced by sections on tipping in country region or city articles? Best wishes Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:43, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

One thought: It could mention different ways to tip. In different countries, or different types of establishments/services in one country, it might be typical to leave tips in a jar on a counter, leave them on the table when you leave, mention them when paying by card, write them on the receipt when paying by card, hand them to someone on your way out, or just say "keep the change". Even without a list of specific countries, the article could discuss this diversity. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:40, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
And one for yourself? K7L (talk) 14:25, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean—have I misunderstood something because of an English variation issue? Or have I been unclear because of it? —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:52, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
In a British pub, the expression "And one for yourself?" refers to a gratuity offered to a server, equivalent in value to the price of one serving of beer or ale, when buying a round of drinks. The concept is very much regional. K7L (talk) 16:10, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
Evidently so—I'm so unfamiliar with the practice that I couldn't figure out what your comment meant! Sounds like it would be worth including in the article. —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:25, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Bribing vendors in an attempt to get service?[edit]

I see this has been added again:

(Conversely, you as a foreigner can even work the system to your advantage: defying locals' low expectations by tipping appropriately often results in better service than a local would get by giving the same amount!)

Please, no, don't do this. All you are doing is inflating expectations even further – so that an inflated gratuity becomes merely a commission or an entitlement, not an earned reward – ensuring that the next traveller will be be treated very rudely if they do not share your penchant for trying to buy respect locally.

In the long run, you're making things worse not only for yourself but also for the next voyager. Don't start an "arms race" to see who can bribe the server the most, or it will merely become accepted behaviour with the traveller as the ultimate loser. K7L (talk) 01:32, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't think that is what is meant here. If for example a German goes to the US, those that have any expectations will expect them to tip lower than is US custom (10% would be considered a normal to generous tip in Germany and often the tip is just "rounding up", especially for small orders). Hence a German tipping according to US standards (what are they? 15-20%? More?) will likely get better service by service people who know of that than an American. However, I'd like to hear from actual waiters or waitresses from e.g. Germany, whether they give better service to Americans (because they might get a 20% tip then) or worse (because Americans "tip anyway") Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:49, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
What Hobbitschuster said. I wrote that passage from the perspective of a foreigner visiting the U.S. (and clarified it as such since whatever version of the page you copied the passage of text from). This site, and this particular article more than most, deals in realism rather than idealism - and the reality is that a foreign tourist who refuses on principle to tip a U.S. service-sector worker (or to modulate their tips to U.S. expectations) in order to make some kind of ethical statement, as K7L seems to be hinting at, is not going to singlehandedly bring an end to the phenomenon of tipping. All he's going to do is piss people off and, more than likely, get bad service on any future occasion he choose to eat there. Whatever your feelings about it, whether you think it constitutes bribery or not, tipping is a fact of life in U.S. culture and is not going anywhere - and as long as that's true, you may as well know how to play the game (and, in the case of the passage at issue, work the system to your advantage). -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:23, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
In that case, this is very poorly worded. The tone reads a bit too much like "if you slip the maître d'hotel €20, you will likely be seated ahead of patrons who are already waiting" because this is written very euphemistically. Saying "just keep forking over the tips in order to get all this great service" is merely a way to disguise something entirely different as the actual meaning, namely "We go out of our way to pay our workers badly. If you're willing to make up for this by tipping $10 to the server who just brought you undercooked steak, we may attempt give you normal service. Object or tip poorly, and we will make our best effort to be rude enough that you choose to never visit our fine establishment again. Thank you." Euphemism, like sarcasm, risks being badly misunderstood when directed at an international audience. For that reason, it does not work well in a travel guide. K7L (talk) 17:05, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
I honestly don't know where you're seeing euphemism here, or anything like the hyperexaggerated scenarios between the quotation marks in your above comment. In fact, I very scrupulously used the phrase "tip appropriately", as in "follow the procedure that would be expected of an average customer, i.e. a local". Respectfully, it sounds like you're reading this passage through the prism of your own vehement opposition to the way tipping works in the U.S. - which you have a right to, and which I don't necessarily disagree with - but regardless, that type of personal opinion is what doesn't really have a place in a travel guide, at least in this kind of article. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:54, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
Since restaurant tips are given at the end of the meal, I think this would be more applicable to bars, where at least $1 a drink is expected in the U.S., and if you tip extra for cocktails that are labor-intensive, you may get better or happier service. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:31, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
I agree with K7L that the sentence was confusing, and I've tried to rephrase it to make the intended meaning clearer. —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:10, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure I like the new wording. Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:36, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
The change in wording seems like a lateral move to me, but if it works as a compromise I'm fine with it. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:36, 13 August 2017 (UTC)