Talk:Germany/Archive 2019-2023

Error messages

When I view the Germany page, there's red text saying "Lua error: not enough memory" at the start of the Understand section. And then, in the By plane subsection of the Get in section, there are 13 error messages. After that, in the By plane subsection of the Get around section, there's 2 more error messages. Next, in the By car subsection of the Get around section, there are 4 error messages. Then, in the exchange rate box in the Buy section, there's error messages saying "Expression error: Unexpected < operator." But in the Opening hours subsection of the Buy section, there's so many "Expression error: Unexpected < operator." messages that I can't even count. In the Bread subsection of the Eat section, there are also many "Expression error: Unexpected < operator." errors and in the Allergy & Corliac sufferers subsection of the Eat section, there's some more "Lua error: not enough memory" messages. All is good for a while, until the status box, which says "This country travel guide to Lua error: not enough memory. has guide status." And after everything else, there's another "Expression error: Unexpected < operator."

Now, these messages are replacing text and when the error messages appear, there's usually WikiMarkup and HTML beside them. Could somebody explain why this is happening and fix this problem? The SmileKat40! (*Meow* chat with me! | What did I do?) 05:08, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Not seeing the problem. What browser on what OS are you using? --Traveler100 (talk) 06:07, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Google Chrome on Windows 10. The SmileKat40! (*Meow* chat with me! | What did I do?) 06:30, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

There was an identical issue on the USA page a few weeks ago (see Talk:United States of America).--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:45, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Then how did that got fixed? I only see 3 posts on the talk page thread without the issue really being fixed. The SmileKat40! (*Meow* chat with me! | What did I do?) 10:52, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure. Sorry.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:02, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

The page processing time is limited by mediawiki configuration - so this happens sometimes with big pages, where there are lots of templates used and/or many markers. I expect usually the servers often process multiple pages at once, and if there are too many, the time limit is crossed. If you refresh the page, it works sometimes... I guess the only solution is to split out some chunks into separate pages. Or convince wikipedia to give us more computing power :-) -- andree.sk(talk) 11:10, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

I resolved multiple errors by removing the quickbar template as it appears to have caused multiple script errors - please check or test -- 03:04, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Currency notation

In Germany the Euro is used at the ending not before the amount (2.90 € not €2.90). I reckon this is also true for other EU countries. Wikivoyage should really acknowledge that fact and use the proper notation. Also see: https://de.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Deutschland#Einkaufen 89.246.108.202 09:33, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

There has already been a discussion on this recently: Wikivoyage talk:Currency#Putting the € sign after the amount, which confirmed our status quo of putting the symbol before the amount, as in normal English usage and in accordance with the practice of English-speaking Eurozone countries. That doesn't by any means signify that the matter is now closed, but I would ask that you have a read of the other discussion first, and if you have anything to add, continue underneath it in a new subsection. Best wishes, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:25, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

There are no English speaking Eurozone countries. Cyprus speaks Greek, Malta speaks Maltese and Ireland speaks Irish. Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:34, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

English is an official language of both countries. While Irish is also an official language of the country, the everyday language is English. Only some services are available in Irish. But €100 is so standard in English that even Deutsche Welle's English-language service uses it. Ground Zero (talk) 16:26, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

British or American English

I, as the resident German editor, as well as the IP that has recently edited this talk page agree that the de facto standard for English use in Germany is the American variety. What stands in the way of changing the variety used here? Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:33, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

You don't follow style decisions made by the community, so why are you interested in changing this style guidance? Is it a matter that respecting community decisions is something that you think other people should do? I know that this sounds harsh, but since you are continuing to push your preferred style of formatting for the euro over (a) what the community has decided, and (b) what is commonly used in written English, I don't think your view as "the resident German editor" is credible. Ground Zero (talk) 00:52, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

And the IP is much less credible, having made no edits other than attempts to unilaterally change the style of English to American English on several articles with an axe to grind (and I don't dispute that either the English or American empires have been murderous, but so were the Portuguese and many other empires, and what does that have to do with what varieties of English are used in Country X or Region Y?) and is now blocked for 3 days for edit warring. That said, I'd be happy to hear out actual arguments here and really don't consider it of great importance which form of English we use except in obvious cases. So go ahead, Hobbitschuster, and give us some evidence to work with. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:58, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't have a dog in this fight as long as w:Canadian English is used in Canadian articles. We should follow local usage. But I do want to know if Hobbitschuster is willing to respect community decisions as part of trying to shape them. Ground Zero (talk) 01:39, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

The ball is in your court, Hobbitschuster. Are you willing to accept a loss, at least temporarily, and cooperate with a consensus even while you're trying to change it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:46, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

In case you're not aware, the IP address has also been blocked on Wikipedia for the exact same pattern of disruptive editing, so it might be worth considering following suit if three days isn't enough to cool them down.

I personally don't know which style of English is used more in Germany (and have definitely seen and heard both in the writings and mouths of Germans), but it does seem that Deutsche Welle English example used above employs American spelling. Whether that - or indeed Bonn University's internal style guide - is indicative of a whole country seems doubtful, but several similar examples either way would be more compelling.

So, a check of a number of websites for German companies and organisations reveals a preference for UK spelling, albeit not an overwhelming one:

• Deutsche Bahn - UK
• German foreign office - UK
• Bundesliga - UK
• Der Spiegel English - US
• DW radio - mostly US, with some UK
• BMW corporate - UK,
• Lufthansa - UK, regardless of whether the URL reads "en-US" or "en-GB"
• Haribo corporate - UK with some US spelling, e.g. "favorites"
• Deutsche Bank - UK
• Berlin Airport - UK
• German tourist board - UK, with the odd "traveler" to keep us on our toes

I used every example I searched for.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:54, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for looking that up, Thundering! -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:11, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

The perks of "working" from home.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:21, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

I'd also add that the ones that mixed spellings tended to so on the same page, rather than across different pages, suggesting the author(s) doesn't know or care about the difference.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:25, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for this, TT. I will add that the Federal Government of Germany's websites, including those of the Ministry of Labour and the Ministry of Defence, use UK spelling. Deutsche Welle's English service, on the other hand, uses US spelling. Ground Zero (talk) 12:50, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

On the question of consistency, we shouldn't expect that organizations that work in other languages will be too worried about getting English spelling variants right all the time, but be grateful that they provide so much information to us in English. Ground Zero (talk) 14:52, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘The Germans that I have spoken to said that it is standard British English that is generally taught as a foreign language in German schools. That said, Germans would probably have had more exposure to American than British pop culture (as is the case in most of the world), so I won't be surprised that if among Germans who speak English, American terms tend to stick better than British ones despite what they may have been taught in school. The dog2 (talk) 19:34, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

There's also been a strong presence of U.S. troops in Germany since the end of World War II, and I don't think there are nearly the same number of British troops, though I'd welcome correction on that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:53, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

History section

Is it just me, or has the history section of this article become very long? Wv:sections advise: "For example, the 'history' section should not compete with ample Wikipedia articles, but help the traveller to link specific places and events to a larger historical period." As Wikivoyage is a travel guide, that should be the focus of an article. Having a long history section (and other context sections, like Economy and Politics) buries the travel information that readers come here for. Another problem is that we don't require references to reliable sources, so our history sections should be kept short to reduce the likelihood of personal opinions creeping in. Ground Zero (talk) 12:29, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

The first two sections are about right, but everything from Imperial Germany to the Cold War (inclusive) looks too detailed to me. As tumultuous as the Weimar and Nazi eras were, they each only lasted 14 and 12 years respectively, but are covered by great walls of text. I do kind of feel that the history since reunification deserves to be more or less its current length, as it's essentially the history of the current iteration of the German state. But even that could be tightened, and compared with the 'Economy' and 'Politics' sections to avoid duplication.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:50, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

One thing that just occurred to me, the Cold War section has to address the parallel histories of two states, and in a sense covers 90 years of history (45 in the west + 45 in the east), so can be forgiven for being slightly longer than the others.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:01, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

We do manage to cover China's eventful 4000 years of history in about half the amount of text. Ground Zero (talk) 13:15, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Indeed. I'm just saying that if 'Cold War' is harder to trim than other subsections, there's a reason for it.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:05, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Seeing no further discussion for a month, I have gone ahead and taken a scalpel to the Understand section. My edits amounted to removing less than 5% of the text of the article, which is now more focused on travel and less on background information. Readers looking to take a deeper dive into German history can read the Wikipedia article, which has the advantage of being crowd-sourced and referenced to outside sources. Ground Zero (talk) 04:06, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

The Weimar Republic, Nazi Era and Cold War Era are very much relevant to the travel(l)er throughout Germany, so we should probably cover them in more, not less, detail than the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation - beautiful houses and cities can be attributed to the latter, but it's not all that relevant to all of Germany. In certain cities or towns, age-old events can be much more relevant, for xample the Peasant Wars for Memmingen, where in 1524-25, a first document resembling a declaration of human rights, the Zwölf Artikel (Twelve Articles), were signed.

More relevant for a significant part of Germany is the Roman era - many Limes remnants are visible and cities like Trier and Köln as well as towns like Kempten have Roman archaeological findings etc., the Heuneburg or other Limes-/Roman-themed museums... ObersterGenosse (talk) 20:31, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Tourist traps

Just wondering, for those people who have been to Germany, are tourist trap restaurants a problem in Germany as well? If so, I think this should be covered in the Eat section. My experience in Spain was that generally, you would get better and more affordable food at restaurants where the staff do not speak English, and my French and Italian colleagues have told me that the situation is similar in France and Italy too. I wonder if the same can be said of Germany. The dog2 (talk) 20:57, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Definitely not in that sense, because most Germans speak English quite passably if not better (although learning some German is still something I'd very much recommend). I'll say, too, that for a while, my girlfriend and I avoided a flashy-looking restaurant in Charlottenburg that had bilingual menus in German and English, and then when we ate there, we found out that it was a really good authentic German restaurant that also brewed their own good beer, it wasn't expensive, and we spoke with our waiter in German. I actually don't remember any eatery we went to in the month I spent in Germany one year and 3 weeks another one that I would call a tourist trap in any bad sense. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:08, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

FWIW: being a German myself, I was blissfully unaware of the existence of tourist trap restaurants until I walked right into one in Spain. I'm not saying we don't have them, but they are certainly not something to be concerned about. El Grafo (talk) 15:59, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

What exactly are you referring to as "tourist trap restaurants"? Eateries/Restaurants of low quality? Overpriced ones? Of course in Germany, restaurants at very touristy sites like Neuschwanstein Castle can be crowded and expensive (maybe even charge rip-off prices), but I don't know specific restaurants with a bad rep or something. Even famous locations like 'Zum Arabischen Coffe Baum in Leipzig are acceptable to good, as are some museum restaurants... ObersterGenosse (talk) 20:26, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Eat

The Eat section is extremely long. Could some of this be moved to German cuisine? Ground Zero (talk) 11:26, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

The local specialties should definitely be moved, and same with the seasonal specialties too. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:43, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

👍👍 Flightnavigator (talk) 17:57, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

9 Euro public transport pass this summer

No idea if this info belongs to WV Germany travelguide, but nonetheless see here. Might inspire some more people to travel to Germany within the next three months. Regards --A.Savin (talk) 12:47, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Speed of german cashiers

@ThunderingTyphoons! thanks for the feedback. Should we remove the preceding sentence as well, then? On the other hand, I've seen this as a relatively common "complaint" from Americans and I've seen at least one Youtube short by a Vietnamese. In my memory, it's not so much about the fact that you have to bag yourself, but at the (perceived) lightning speed the German cashiers go at when scanning your groceries and the looks you apparently get when you're too slow (and a foreigner). That might in reality be more of an Aldi/Lidl thing than a German thing, if it exists at all.

This is difficult to grasp for me from the inside, so I suppose it would be good to get some perspective from both non-Germans and non-Europeans. El Grafo (talk) 08:30, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

As an Ausländer, I think the preceding sentence is fine. The light-speed of cashiers is true and entertaining enough to mention. I agree that any more detail is probably bordering on 'captain obvious'. The stakes are pretty low here; if someone wants to carry out food, they'll find a way. From a traveler perspective (especially the type of traveler that finds themselves buying a lot of groceries) I think many of us very quickly learn to go with the flow. Besides, we could write an entire article on how to buy groceries in Germany, but someone is still going to get impatient, and I still won't be able to find the eggs... Gregsmi11 (talk) 10:40, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

@Gregsmi11 thanks for your thought on this. Do you by chance have any experience with non-German European cashiers? I've never paid particular attention to this, but Dutch or Danish cashiers, for example, never seemed noticeably slower to me. Just curious about how much of this is real and how much of this is a matter of personal/cultural bias. El Grafo (talk) 12:18, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

@El Grafo I shopped at quite a few grocery stores outside Germany last summer, but I'm having a hard time remembering any particular cashier. I'm confident that they were at least slower than an average Aldi/Lidl. In truth, I'm sure there's a range of cashier speeds even at the fastest chain. I'm also OK removing that sentence, but considering it is at least true enough to develop into a tiktok/youtube joke, and it's only mentioned in a lighthearted tone, I think keeping it fits within WV's lively style even if the advice is only worth about as much as a paper bag. Gregsmi11 (talk) 14:43, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

You know, at REWE/EDEKA and the likes, I feel like it's often me waiting for the cashier. Thus the urge to turn this into something along the lines of "Germany is infamous on the webz for fast cashiers, but its really mostly the likes of Aldi/Lidl". But I suppose that would suck the fun out of it. I'm not good at "lighthearted", so I should probably just stay out of it. Let's just keep it then. I'll leave this one here, though: Supermarkets in Germany - Youtube - there's some truth to it. (Aldi cashiers were so much more impressive back in the days before they had scanners. AFAIR, Aldi held off on getting the scanners for a long while, because well-trained cashiers hacking the item IDs into the register from memory was considerably faster than them fumbling around trying to get the scanner to read the barcode.) El Grafo (talk) 15:44, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I didn't really have a problem with the preceding bit about speedy cashiers. It's not something I've particularly noticed in my visits to Germany, but since it's a known 'phenomenon' and it's interesting, then keeping it is fine. It was more the "how to pack shopping" Wikihow tutorial that irked me. :-) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:56, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Reverted edits

@Klein Muçi, why did you undo all of my edits? I can understand why mentioning Bergkamen is not all that helpful, but the other edits? ObersterGenosse (talk) 11:46, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

ObersterGenosse, hello! I'm sorry for the inconvenience. This was already discussed in here: User talk:Klein Muçi (revision 4627113)
Your edits are apparently very correct, it's an error by my side. — Klein Muçi (talk) 11:53, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Entry requirements

Something got mixed up here, it feels like things have been moved back and forth a bit without adjusting accordingly:

“ Recognised refugees and stateless persons in possession of a valid travel document issued by the government of any one of the above countries/territories (e.g., Canada) are exempt from obtaining a visa for Germany (but no other Schengen country, except Hungary, The Netherlands and Belgium, and for refugees, Slovakia) for a maximum stay of 90 days in a 180-day period.

Citizens of Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan, New Zealand, South Korea and the US are eligible to obtain a residence permit, or Aufenthaltstitel (authorising a stay of more than 90 days and permission to work), upon arrival in Germany, but before the end of the 90-day period of visa-free entry. Before obtaining such status, they are not allowed to work, with the exception of some specific occupations (such as artists). Nationals of Honduras, Monaco and San Marino can also obtain such a permit, but this is issued only if they may not work on the residence permit. Other nationals will need to obtain a visa before if they intend to stay in Germany for longer than the 90-day period, even if they are visa-free for that period for a stay in the Schengen area, or if they intend to work.

”

1. The "above" probably refers to the countries now listed in the paragraph below, but it's unclear whether that only refers to the group of (Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan, New Zealand, South Korea and the US) or also (Honduras, Monaco and San Marino) mentioned further down in the same paragraph. What's the best way to reslove this? Move it back down again? It feels like refugees are a bit of a special case compared to "normal" travelers. Usually, it makes sense start with the general procedures and list exceptions to those afterwards ...
2. The "but no other Schengen..." interlude seems needlessly complicated. It seems to mean that

a) Germany is an exception within the Schengen area in that refugees from certain countries do not need a visa in advance.

b) Hungary, The Netherlands and Belgium, and Slovakia are similar exceptions.

Wouldn't it be sufficient in an article about Germany to simply write that Germany is an exception and remove detailed information on other countries here?

El Grafo (talk) 14:41, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Eh. "Above" apparently refers to the list of visa-free countries that can now be found in Template:Schengen-visalist, but formerly was in Template:Schengen - which comes right before the quoted passage in the text (since before the list was moved).

But anyone with documents from a country from that list can stay visa free for the 90 days within 180 days, not only refugees or stateless persons. And they can stay anywhere in the Schengen Area, not only Germany, Hungary, etc. – that's the entire point of the Schengen Area. So where does that "no other Schengen country..." limitation come from then? Is it complete nonsense or is there just some important informaion missing? El Grafo (talk) 16:29, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Maybe "Recognised refugees and stateless persons in possession of a valid travel document" refers to people with a refugee travel document (w:Refugee travel document) or similar. In other words, a US citizen with a US passport can enter any Schengen country without a visa, but maybe a stateless person with a US refugee travel document can do the same for Germany but not, say, France. But that's just my best guess. I tried searching in English for relevant information about German law but couldn't find anything. —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:27, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

@Mx. Granger That would indeed make sense, thanks. I was able to confirm that people with a Canadian refugee travel document do not need a visa for short term stay in Germany. Couldn't find anything about "blue passports" from those countries being accepted like regular ones in Germany, though. I'll keep looking ... El Grafo (talk) 10:00, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Some opinions illegal to tell?

A recent addition by The dog2 says that pro-Palestinian protests are illegal. What's that? A western country not allowing expressing concern in certain matters! Is this new ad hoc legislation or is it referring to a broader law? Is it that the pro-Palestinian protests now occurring typically are in a form that breaks the law? Please clarify, at least here at the talk page. –LPfi (talk) 07:03, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

That sounds like utter nonsense. What's illegal is the expression of blatant racism, so antisemitic protests could be illegal, not pro-Palestinian ones, and if some people can't express pro-Palestinian sentiments without expressing hatred for the Jewish people, that says something about them, not about German law. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:56, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

That is indeed just plain out wrong. There are limitations to free speech relevant to the situation that have been discussed, and I guess that's where this statement originally came from: What is illegal is "Belohnung und Billigung von Straftaten", i.e. rewarding and/or approving crimes. If you publicly praise crimes (Tagesschau mentions e.g. murder, rape, or kidnapping) AND while doing so disturb the "öffentlicher Frieden"¹ you may be in trouble. Peacefully demonstrating for a "free Palestine" or something along those lines is of course covered by the same laws that allow farmers, vegans, conservatives and LGBTQ+ folks to march for their values.

It is not the opinion that is illegal, nor are you forbidden from stating that opinion. w:Volksverhetzung is a relevant concept here. --El Grafo (talk) 09:50, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

¹"public peace", understood as a state where people live together in a country without fear for life, health, or freedom

I mean, do we even want to encourage travellers to participate in local protests? I'd want to hear from The dog2, though. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 10:04, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

We recommend against participating in Stay safe#Protests and mass gatherings, which should be enough. Still, some travellers do participate in protests abroad and if there are specific local issues with doing that, a warning is warranted. –LPfi (talk) 10:35, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

I have reverted that edit for now, as it was factually false in that form. I don't think we need to elaborate on the finer details of German laws when all you really need to know is "don't be a dick". --El Grafo (talk) 10:57, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't know what the details are but there's an article saying that the police broke up a pro-Palestinian rally in Berlin: . I don't know the details of the law. I don't know the threshold you need to cross for something to count as anti-Semitism in Germany, but in the U.S., any criticism of Israel is automatically considered to be anti-Semitism, at least in the mainstream media, though it's still legal because of the First Amendment. The dog2 (talk) 13:16, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Background: If you want to organize a demonstration in Germany, you need to register that with the authorities. You need to have an idea of how many people will be there, where you're marching, etc. That's so that plans can be made to keep everyone safe. Authorities can request you to adjust your plans if safety is a concern. In the vast majority of cases, even if there are major concerns, they will still allow the demonstration to start, try to keep things from going south, and if that fails break up the whole thing. As a very, very last resort, they can forbid the demonstration entirely before it even starts if the organizers cannot come up with a reasonable concept, but there are very strict limitations to this. Whether the demonstration is pro-Palistinian, anti-Semitic, a bunch of Neo-Nazis, left-wing extremists, or climate activism doesn't really matter here (at least in theory).

A bunch of demonstrations in Berlin were recently disallowed and/or dissolved for reasons of security and w:Volksverhetzung. That does not make them "illegal" as a whole. Meanwhile, many other pro-Palestinian demonstrations took place elsewhere in the country. El Grafo (talk) 15:12, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

I think even the linked article quite clearly states that pro-Palestinian demonstrations aren't banned per se: "... demonstrations showing solidarity with Palestinians over the weekend, with some forbidden and others allowed to go ahead". –LPfi (talk) 16:04, 17 October 2023 (UTC)