Wikivoyage talk:Currency

From Wikivoyage
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Archived discussions

Belarusian ruble[edit]

I visited this country last month and have been using this formatting (BYN100) while adding prices to Belarus articles. Belarusian ruble isn't on the list so I borrowed Russian formatting (RUB100) as a guide since both use rubles. Are there any oppositions to me adding Belarus' currency formatting to the list? OhanaUnitedTalk page 02:54, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

What is the most common way of expressing the currency that you've seen in symbols or Latin letters? That's what we should use. We wouldn't use Cyrillic letters, per WV:$, but we would avoid using the ISO, unless that is what travellers would normally see. There are a lot of countries where we just spell out the currency name instead of using a symbol, e.g. Thailand, Vietnam, Morocco, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Laos, Armenia, Azerbaijan. Ground Zero (talk) 09:22, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
To be honest, everywhere is written in Russian (so 1 рубль for 1 ruble). The only time I saw Latin letters for currency was at the restaurant in an American hotel chain, and it says "10.00 BYN". OhanaUnitedTalk page 05:46, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
So it sounds like the "100 rubles" format would be best. If you're going to Russia, too, maybe you could report back on what you see there (is anyone using the ₱ symbol?) I kind of suspect that the "RUB100" format dates from a time long ago when there was one editor trying to push ISO codes for all currencies, instead of what travellers will see, but I don't remember from my last trip there 14 years ago. Ground Zero (talk) 06:27, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
I already returned home and I don't think Russia is on my list for next little while. I do agree that "100 rubles" is what locals would say, but I fear that it can be confusing because readers could mix up with Russian rubles (which is what everyone think of when "ruble" is mentioned because it's more widely circulated). Let's see what others chime in and have to say on this topic. OhanaUnitedTalk page 02:10, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
We do use "$" in Canadian articles as the accepted norm (and Australia, NZ, Singapore....) It can be clarified by specifying Belarusian rubles the first time in each article. Linking in this way can be useful as it links the reader to exchange rates: 100 Belarusian rubles. Ground Zero (talk) 02:30, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
@Ground Zero: Here's a question. How come Russia uses "RUB100" instead of "100 rubles"? I would imagine most people would people would connect rubles to Russia rather than "RUB". The logic seems a little backwards if we mandate rubles as the notation for Belarus currency but RUB for Russia. OhanaUnitedTalk page 04:55, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
@OhanaUnited: I added that in March 2017 "to indicate the format that Wikipedia articles are generally using now". I haven't been to Russia since 2005, so I don't know what travellers should expect to see in shops and restaurants now. (I don't remember what was commonly used then, either.) What we commonly use in Russia articles is not a good basis for what we should use in Russia articles, let alone what we should use in Belarus articles. At Talk:Russia, I will ask people who've been to Russia if what they see most commonly is "руб", "рубль" or "РУБ", because I suspect that whatever are using is wrong. The Wikipedia article on the w: Russian ruble says that the symbol is "₽, руб / р. (colloquially)". We use £ for the UK pound, which is the best-known pound, but not for the Egyptian pound because £ isn't used in Egypt. Ground Zero (talk) 12:06, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

@OhanaUnited: we haven't had input from any other users. What are your thoughts now? I still don't want to use the ISO code as it seems overly formal to me, and don't think we should use it if it isn't used there. Ground Zero (talk) 15:15, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

@Ground Zero: I think the country-level page (Belarus) should mention Belarusian rubles in the first instance and wherever makes sense. Cities and town pages can probably get by with just "rubles". Any potential source of confusing (e.g. border towns between Russia/Belarus or Belarus/European country) should be spelled out each time. How does it sound? OhanaUnitedTalk page 01:13, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
That makes sense to me. Thanks. Ground Zero (talk) 01:19, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
Done. OhanaUnitedTalk page 04:23, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Ranges[edit]

Write price ranges using a single currency symbol and a single dash with no spaces, e.g. Dinner: €10–20

I personally find "€10–20" visually unappealing and syntactically irksome ("10 euros and 20 what, exactly?). Plus, there's always a chance, at least when using a shorter dash, that "€10-20" is mistaken for €10.20 by speedy readers.

In full knowledge that this is the worst set of arguments possible, I humbly submit a proposed amendment thusly:

Write price ranges using a currency symbol accompanying each unit and a single dash with no spaces, e.g. Dinner: €10–€20

It just looks better, reads better, and is unambiguous. In my opinion, at least.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 01:02, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't buy the ambiguity argument. Are there any countries that use the hyphen as a decimal place?
I find "€10–€20" to be awkward and ugly. I prefer the current format.
If it is going to be changed, then I hope that there is a plan to run a bot to change instances of the old format. Otherwise, all we'd really being doing is making most of our listings offside of the formatting policy. I don't think that's good. Ground Zero (talk) 08:56, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
At the end of the day, it's a personal preference, as is yours. We'll just see what people think, if there's interest in changing it, then great, if not we'll stick to the status quo, and I'll continue to stew about it privately 😊 --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:21, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
I have to say I also prefer TT!'s proposed format. No need to mandate one or the other, though; we could allow either, as long as usage on a given page is consistent. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 00:03, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
We adopt consistent formats to make it easier for travellers to find the information they need. I don't think catering to editors' preferences is consistent with putting the traveller first. I can live with whichever format the consensus prefers, but I really have a problem with changing the format without a plan to change our articles to reflect the new format. Doing it manually is such a massive job that it will never happen. I don't see TT's format very often, so this proposal, so far, would just make the large majority of listings violate the Manual of Style. That is not going to make Wikivoyage better. Without an automated solution, the status quo has a very strong advantage for readers and for the project by virtue of being what we are doing already. Ground Zero (talk) 00:40, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
I wouldn't think of it as an "old" and "new" format, or a choice between them, but rather allowing an extra one, so there's no worry with regards to changing existing pages. Also, I really don't think this is a ttcf issue, nor does it really reflect on making it easier or harder to find information. It's just an extra currency symbol...most readers probably won't notice. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 01:38, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
The discussion started with a concern about ambiguity if the current format, which I don't agree with. But if we start using €40-50 in some articles and €40-€50 in others, then I think we're creating ambiguity. Giving editors choice does not address TT's concerns about the current format. In [Wikivoyage_talk:Time_and_date_formats#Opens_and_closes_in_the_afternoon this recent discussion], a decision was made to prefer "1-4PM" over "1PM-4PM". That format, and the current range format, avoid repetition, and so are more concise. Ground Zero (talk) 01:52, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
Alright, if you insist. I'm not really concerned about ambiguity; I just think the other way looks nicer. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 02:10, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
I'm not insisting -- it's not up to me alone. I'm just trying to raise what I think are valid concerns. Ground Zero (talk) 02:58, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Philippine peso[edit]

There is a discussion here about whether to use P or ₱. Other views would be welcome. Ground Zero (talk) 08:57, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Taiwan dollars[edit]

I would just like to ask, why did WV decide that for Taiwan, prices should be listed using "NT$" instead of just "$"? Isn't it convention here that if you just see a "$" sign for a dollar-using country, you can assume it is the local currency and not US$. For instance, we don't write "HK$1" in our Hong Kong article, since "$1" is assumed to be one Hong Kong dollar, so I don't see why we need to be different for Taiwan. The dog2 (talk) 16:53, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

It was decided here. Generally I think that local use is more useful for readers, so it is a better guide for us than consistency across articles. I haven't been to Taiwan yet, so I don't know, but Wikipedia is probably not wrong. Ground Zero (talk) 18:18, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't see that, but I'll respond here since that's a very old thread. I've been to Taiwan, and over there, if you see a "$" sign without any other initials, you can be pretty sure they are referring to NT$ and not to US$. It is very rare to see prices advertised in US$ even at the airport. Both $ and NT$ commonly appear in Taiwanese price tags, but I wasn't there long enough to give a fair assessment on which format is more common. Sometimes, you won't even see the $ sign, and they will just denote the price using numbers and the Chinese character for the currency. In fact, it is not uncommon for the currency unit to just be completely dropped. The dog2 (talk) 18:55, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Actually, I have barely seen a dollar sign when I was there. I made a collection of all pictures with a currency symbol that I could find from my Taiwan trip, here: Commons:Category:Taiwan Currency ... and most use , one was NT $.
Furthermore, I checked some accommodation websites, I found NTD, NT, NT $, and of course , but never $. Also, from the WV country page it seems 新臺幣 means New Taiwanese Dollar aka NTD aka NT$.
Hence, using $ would certainly be worse than what we have now with NT$. However, having considered this topic, I am now actually more in favor of using 100元 instead of NT$100. So, should we have a discussion about this option?
Cheers, Ceever (talk) 21:12, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
If you do a Wikimedia commons search for "Taiwan price tag", you can see some with just $ ([1], some of which are quite recent. But yes, I definitely agree that 100元 or just 100 is more common than either $100 or NT$100. As I previously mentioned though, if you're in Taiwan and just see $, you can pretty much assume it refers to NT$, not U.S. dollars, Australian dollars or any other dollar currencies. If it was U.S. dollars or Australian dollars, they will specify (eg. US$, A$). The dog2 (talk) 21:52, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Mmmhh, the amount of $ signs is really limited in your example. I found many more 元 and no $ in the pictures of just one holiday. Maybe it changed recently, but I really feel that $ would be the worst currency denotation we could use for Taiwan. But we should probably move forward switching to 元. Ceever (talk) 09:09, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
We have generally avoid symbols that would not be familiar to English-speaking readers, like 元, and have chosen to use "baht" instead of ฿, but I don't really know why we've taken that approach. I suppose that using familiar symbols/words is easier for armchair travellers, but it contradicts our general approach of using the symbol that travellers are most likely to see in the country. Further, we violated the "familiar" principle in accepting "грн" for Ukraine, and I have proposed using "руб" for Russia. Does anyone know how to add "元" and "руб" to the Wiki markup currency line at the bottom of the edit screen? Ground Zero (talk) 13:42, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
I see what you did there ... ;-)
Well, from the discussion on Ukraine, we can edit the symbols at MediaWiki:Edittools - I do not have permissions though. Maybe it would make sense to also include a two letter country code here, because all those currency symbols become more and more confusing.
My suggestion would be: EU: — CZ: — UK: £ — UA: грн ... etc.
On Taiwan, should we go with NT$ for the moment, unless someone is willing to change everything to 元? (Though, the questions remains, if we go with 元, whether to use 100元 or 100 元.)
Cheers Ceever (talk) 07:02, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
In the Japan article, we use ¥100 instead of 100円 even though you often see the latter when you go there, so I don't think using just "$" in the Taiwan article will be confusing, but that's just me. Honestly, I wouldn't mind switching to using ฿ for the Thai baht and ₫ for the Vietnamese dong since those symbols are actually commonly seen when you travel to their respective countries. The dog2 (talk) 03:13, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
In English-language signage in Japan, ¥100 is used. 100円 is used in Japanese-language signage. Wikivoyage is written for people who speak English as a primary or secondary language. Native Japanese-speakers are not our main audience. Ceever's July 5th post above addressed why NT$ is better than $ effectively. I don't object to ฿ and ₫, but we'd need a broader discussion in the community before doing so (and a specific proposal for that). Ground Zero (talk) 03:39, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

Wikivoyage:Currency notations moving to different countries' pages?[edit]

Swept in from the pub

Anyone knows why other currencies are slowly moving to their respective countries' talk pages? I thought the purpose of policy pages is to have a centralized list of best practices on a single page for reference, not scattered across a dozen or so talk pages for different countries. OhanaUnitedTalk page 18:36, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

I think the thinking behind that is that you don't want to set out formatting policy in two places, lest they disagree. I don't feel strongly about this, but I think it is more useful to have it on the country talk pages. @Ceever: may have comments on this issue. Ground Zero (talk) 18:47, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
Avoid having 2 discussions in parallel can be achieved by leaving a message at the country's talk page pointing to the discussion taking place. OhanaUnitedTalk page 20:30, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
Well, the country talk page is where editors would look for consensuses agreed upon for that country. It might be that a centralised page was intended first, but it is not very intuitive, I believe.
Also, that page is not really necessary, because we have the country talk page for exactly such purposes. Also, this extra page has no purpose for travellers, it is overload we actually do not need.
Furthermore, a single page with all currencies standards listed serves no practical purpose, because most of the time you will stick with one country when editing, why have everything listed together when each is only relevant to that one country.
Last but not least, we now also have the spelling and time format for that country in one easily found place. Those three belong together for the purpose of informing editors which standards to use for that country. It would be harder to in addition have another page for the time formats and another page for the spelling formats, not to mention one page for all three formats of all countries.
I know this is a little confusing at the moment, because it is not clear where to look at the moment, but this will be a short transition period. Maybe we could add a links on those country's talk pages that do not yet have that format box.
Cheers Ceever (talk) 20:53, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
I strongly disagree. Wikivoyage:Currency is the correct place to document standards. Powers (talk) 19:11, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
For what reason? I'm sorry, but just saying you disagree with a long, multifaceted comment, without elaborating, doesn’t help us further this discussion.
Why not link the information on an article's talk page to the currency page with a clever template, a bit like the currency exchange template? That way, if one changes, so will the other. Or we just remember to change both on the very rare occasion that a format change occurs.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:45, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
It's standard on Wikimedia wikis to put style information in a central location for ease of finding it and easier comparisons (to detect inconsistencies, gaps, or overlaps). Powers (talk) 19:57, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Putting the notations on the talk pages on individual articles is mainly to remind potential editors what the standard template is. I believe any changed to currency notation are discussed on the Wikivoyage:Currency talk page, and all the relevant talk pages are updated if a consensus is reached. The dog2 (talk) 20:49, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Most changes to currency format have been discussed on the country talk pages over the last 2½ years, but there have been a few discussed on Wikivoyage talk:Currency. That's neither here nor there. I agree with Ceever that it is most helpful for editors to group currency, time and spelling conventions on the country talk page because editors are more like to be doing edits across a country than focussing edits just on currency formats. We can put a link on Wikivoyage talk:Currency to the country talk page, and in many cases have already done so. This is not something we should spend a lot of time on. Ground Zero (talk) 22:32, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Price notation[edit]

Swept in from the pub

There's been a long-running dispute, across a number of articles, regarding how to denote prices that start with a base figure, e.g. 'from $100' or '$100+'. Another editor insists on the first method. However I have found nothing in the manual of style that states the second alternative cannot be used, and indeed it is a commonly-used format not only in print but online. It seems to me that this would be a matter of personal preference – are there any other opinions on this matter? StellarD (talk) 12:52, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

In some places "$100+" is used to mean "prices from $100 (and up)", in others it's "$100 plus tax". "From" is a short word, so there is no need to use a symbol to replace it. I don't see why this is a big issue. I can try to remember not to make this change in StellarD's articles, but I don't get this being a thing to bring to the pub. Ground Zero (talk) 13:29, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
Does it matter which one we use on a certain article? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:46, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
We could also use "≥$100" or "$100 and up". When possible, I'd prefer specifying an actual range, because the difference between "$100 to $200" and "$100 to $10,0000" is significant, but I understand that might not always be feasible. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:00, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
I don't think anyone has mentioned the potential wording "at least $100." How would people like that one? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:06, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
While I wouldn't start an edit war over it, if a range isn't known (as is often the case with hotels), I'd definitely prefer "from $100" instead of "$100+". That usage of "+" has no mathematical or literary basis, and is just sloppy writing. While we do use abbreviations such as days of the week in listings, WV is not so constrained for space like a printed guide that we need to use awkward and potentially unclear symbols instead of a short English word. And there's no reason to use "at least" when "from" is 3 letters and a space shorter and is already perfectly clear. --Bigpeteb (talk) 19:13, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
Why does it need to be one or the other? Unless there's confusion about what's meant, just leave it be. There's such a thing as overstandardization. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:58, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
I prefer "from $100". I think that "at least $100" has a slight implication of being expensive, and looks odd when used with prices which are a good deal - "the campsite costs at least $5" doesn't look right (but "the hotel costs at least $500" is ok). It is not important, but is better that adjacent listings use the same wording. AlasdairW (talk) 21:43, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
If the meaning is that there are various prices and the lowest of them is $100, I think "From $100" is best, and "$100 and up" is fine. Whether I would change any other usages would partly depend on how pedantic my mood was at the time, and whether I was aware that the editor who wrote it had a strong preference for it. Nurg (talk) 04:45, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Currency notations for Thailand and Vietnam[edit]

After having a long thought about it, I think we should be using the "฿" symbol for the Thai baht, and the "₫" symbol for the Vietnamese dong. Their respective currencies are most frequently denoted this way on English-language signs, so I don't see why we shouldn't be consistent with other countries' articles and use the local currency symbol. What does everyone think? The dog2 (talk) 02:00, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

I haven't been to either country (although I'm planning to go to Vietnam next year), so I can't comment. I don't know what the objection is to using the symbols since we have adopted ₹, ₪, ₩, and others. Ground Zero (talk) 06:43, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
I've been to both countries, what I mentioned in my previous post is exactly what I saw. The dog2 (talk) 17:10, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
On my smart phone I cannot produce the ฿. Even on my laptop I must take several steps before I can produce the ฿. An addition to the listing editor would help for working with the laptop (btw ₹ and ₪ are not available in the listing editor), but not while working with the smart phone. The listing editor is not available on the smart phone. Visiting a place I can think "20 baht for a coffee, that is cheap" and at that moment I would take my phone and put "coffee only 20 baht" at "Price=". Putting "coffee only ฿20" there is something I cannot do, and I would have forgotten about it by the time I'm at my laptop. Walking around in Thailand I see "บาท" or "baht" most times, but "฿" is also frequently used. So, I would prefer not to change baht into ฿. It makes contributing "on the spot" difficult or even impossible. --FredTC (talk) 02:08, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
As there have been no other comments about the baht but Fred TC's, I think we should abandon the idea of using ฿ if "baht" is more common. For Vietnam, I'll report back in February. Ground Zero (talk) 01:32, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I've been in Vietnam only four days, but so far, it looks to me like there is no standard currency notation. The most common way of showing a price is with the number only, e.g., "100.000", "100k" or "100K". Occasionally I've seen "VND", "vnd", "VNĐ", "vn₫", appended, but not that often. I've seen "₫" used only rarely. I think our current practice of using "dong" is the simplest approach, especially as it is already the most commonly used notation in our articles. Ground Zero (talk) 10:34, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Missing countries[edit]

This is a list of countries that do not have an agreed-upon standard notation yet. If I have missed some, please let me know.

<Completed>

We can use this as a checklist and cross the countries off once a standard notation is posted on the currency page. Gizza (roam) 09:23, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

I think our plan is to post new formats on the country's talk page, isn't it? Ground Zero (talk) 12:32, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
I just came back from Tonga last month. Tongan paʻanga uses $ (thankfully). OhanaUnitedTalk page 03:04, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
@OhanaUnited: thanks. Can you tell us which clock is most common -- 12-hourvor 24-hour? Thanks. Ground Zero (talk) 12:43, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
@Ground Zero: Didn't really recall particular format was more commonly used. The only evidence I had was communication with the hotel, which used 24-hour in their email. OhanaUnitedTalk page 01:20, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

@DaGizza: what would you think about getting the ball rolling on resolving these by posting draft formatting convention (currency, time, spelling) infoboxes on these cpuntries' talk pages to see if we can get a response? We would use information from Wikipedia and other sources to make our best guess about which formats are appropriate, and hope that someone monitoring the country articles confirms or corrects us. Below is an example I would post at Talk:Algeria. If there is no comment after a month, then I think we implement the proposal. Comments? Ground Zero (talk):

Currency, time and spelling conventions[edit]

Below is a proposed infobox to let readers know which formatting conventions to use in Wikivoyage articles. Do you agree with these proposals? If you have direct knowledge of what is most commonly used in the country, please let us know.

Formatting and language conventions

For articles about Algeria, please use the 24-hour clock to show times, e.g. 09:00-12:00 and 18:00-00:00.

Please show prices in this format: DA100 — not DZD 100, 100 DA or 100 dinars.

Please use American spelling.

Moving forward[edit]

I remembered that when I created and implemented the exchangevrare templates for country articles a few years ago, I researched the symbols used for currencies in order to choose the correct symbols for the templates. So I've implemented the above infobox for a bunch where I can take an informed guess about the time and spelling conventions. In some cases, I've put in on the talk page as a proposal to try to get more feedback. I expect that in some cases I've got it wrong, and i hope that other contributors will correct me. Ground Zero (talk) 13:18, 5 December 2019 (UTC)