Wikivoyage talk:Currency

From Wikivoyage
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Archived discussions

Currencies, again[edit]

Swept in from the pub

Happy 2017. Since we usually display prices in the local currency, exchange rates are pretty important. I have found that that inflation is usually not that easy to find in the country articles as it usually appears as text in a paragraph. I propose to highlight this key info by putting an infobox at the top of the currency section of each country article like this:

Exchange rates for Nicaraguan córdobas (C$)

As of January 2017,

  • US$1 = C$29.3
  • €1 = C$30.6
  • UK£1 = C$36.2

I propose to use these three currencies as the most commonly understood by travellers. The "=" symbol seems to screw up the formatting. I don't like "buys" and would welcome other suggestions.

Comments? Is this a good or bad idea? Ground Zero (talk) 15:51, 1 January 2017 (UTC) (I was able to fix the = problem.) Ground Zero (talk) 17:57, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

If there was a way to have the rates updated automatically it would be useful, otherwise it will just quickly become an out of date information box as it will be too much effort to maintain. --Traveler100 (talk) 15:58, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
If I remember correctly, currency exchange rates were at one point (maybe half a year ago, but not any longer) updated to the country infoboxes from Wikidata. If currency rates are still available at WD, the infobox could perhaps be linked to them. ϒpsilon (talk) 16:34, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia uses this template: [1] which provides links to external exchange rates sites. It doesn't show the rates themselves, so I think it is pretty clunky as it makes the reader click through to get the information. If there is a way to draw current rates right onto the page, I'd be happy with that.
Our prices are not updated often either, so I don't think we should be too worried about not having the most up-to-date exchange rates. Our prices and rates are just an approximation for the reader of be what they will experience.
My proposal upgrades what we have now by making the rates easier to find. I'd rather have recent-ish rates right on the page than a link to today's rate. Or maybe we provide both. Ground Zero (talk) 16:43, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
@Ypsilon: Exchange rates were recently disabled in infoboxes due to technical problems - see #Wikidata issue for currency exchange rate in country summary box. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:46, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
I see. The rates are still there, for instance HKD which was mentioned in the thread Ryan just linked to has about one month old rates on WD. I guess someone familiar with WD and templates could use the data and create infoboxes. --ϒpsilon (talk) 17:01, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

A hybrid approach would be to include the above info box, and this template below. Ground Zero (talk) 19:01, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Exchange rates for {{{currency}}}

As of {{{date}}}: Exchange rates fluctuate. Current rates for these and other currencies are available from {{{source}}}

Exchange rates can have pretty extreme fluctuations in pretty short timeframes. Hotel rates and the prices of at the very least commonly ordered meals in restaurants enjoy much more stability. It's what economists half-jokingly refer to the "shoesole-costs" of inflation - the costs of replacing shoesoles earlier from having to go to the ATM more often for new money. Because inflation is continues, but due to marketing and psychological reasons prices are increasing in discrete and concrete increments (or have you ever seen a 6.33€ steak become a 6.34€ steak the next week?) Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:19, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) If people are interested in automated conversions my preference would be to fix Wikidata rather than linking to external finance sites. If {{exchange rates}} is going to be kept it should be deleted and re-imported so that it provides proper attribution to the Wikipedia authors. -- Ryan • (talk) • 19:24, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
Fixing Wikidata sounds lie the best option, but I know I don't have the skills for it. My hybrid proposal is based on what I know I'd be capable of doing.
I sampled a bunch of articles to see what is the norm now. Articles usually have in text form exchanges rates as of a certain date, between 2014 and 2016. This is useful for providing a general idea of the rate. I find that useful when I am casually reading articles out of interest, but I think the information can be better presented, as I've suggested. Some articles provide no exchange rate info at all, which I don't think is useful. In preparing for a trip, I want to know the current rate, so I usually Google it. I think that Wikivoyage could be improved by also providing a better version of the experimental automated template I stole from Wikipedia without proper attribution (I'll be looking for advice on how to import correctly), information would be available in whichever form the reader wants it. Ground Zero (talk) 19:47, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
Alternative suggestion: template (e.g. {{amount|50|GTQ}} ) to place around reference to a value, show symbol and number, on mouse over shows name of currently and value in a number of other currencies such as $US and Euro.--Traveler100 (talk) 20:30, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Formatting One solution to the equals sign problem above is to use "" since these currencies exchanges will probably not be perfect and will fluctuate with time anyway. It's probably just better form even if we can get a "=" to display. I agree that Wikidata is the correct approach, since this is a problem that will impact several projects in addition to this one. —Justin (koavf)TCM 20:51, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not display currency values and rather links to external sources for that. There must be a reason for that. Does that reason apply to us as well? Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:38, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
The value of a currency, even approximate, is of great interest to a traveller. I think it is worth including. Does anyone have any idea when our the Wikidata thing will be fixed? It was before my time here, so I don't know how it worked before. If it is not imminent, the I would suggest, as an interim solution, including the box at the top of the thread with a caveat the "currency exchange rates fluctuate, be sure to check for the current exchange rate" and then we could include a couple of external links to current rates. And make the change Traveler100 proposes. If Wikidata is fixed, then we would switch to that. Does v that sound like a reasonable approach? Ground Zero (talk) 22:44, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Exchange rates for Nicaraguan córdobas (C$)

As of January 2017,

  • US$1 ≈ C$29.3
  • €1 ≈ C$30.6
  • UK£1 ≈ C$36.2

Note that currency exchange rates fluctuate. Check the current rates at [xe.com XE] or [oanda.com Oanda]

@Hobbitschuster: I would reckon that's because it is more trouble than it is worth to include it directly into the articles on en.wp and it's not a problem to link to an external source there. On the other hand, here we prefer to have really accurate and up-to-the-minute info if we can plus we don't want to encourage outbound traffic (in part because one of the goals here is to make a printable guide). —Justin (koavf)TCM 23:31, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) It would be good if everyone interested in this thread could review past discussions on the subject, including Wikivoyage talk:Currency#Currencies. I'm supportive of any proposal that is easy to maintain, but if an infobox is being proposed that would need to be regularly updated in hundreds of articles then I have some reservations, and would prefer to see a limited trial (perhaps in 3-5 country articles) and more discussion about how to simplify or automate maintenance. The recently disabled approach of using Wikidata for currency conversion remains the preferred option for me, although I think it would be an improvement to also present that info as User:Ground Zero has proposed in the "Buy" section of country articles. -- Ryan • (talk) • 23:33, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, Ryan. I've taken a look at the previous threads - this issue has been around for quite a while. It's disappointing that there doesn't to be a resolution for this key information. I don't think many that a template for prices is really something we should pursue. First, it would be a tonne of work applying it to existing prices in WV, and secondly, getting contributors to use it for new content would be better an ongoing battle. I've attempted a second template to try to combine the static exchange rateses and the links, but the coding is beyond me. I would be grateful if someone could take a look at it. And help me understand how to import these things from Wikipedia correctly. If we can get some sort of consensus on this, I will undertake to do a few test cases, and then if they work, begin to apply it across countries. Thanks, Ground Zero (talk) 02:49, 2 January 2017 (UTC) Template:Exchange rates 2
@Ground Zero: The info wouldn't/shouldn't be imported from Wikipedia (since they would be getting it from an outside source anyway) but from Wikidata. Having centralized data as a repository for other projects is exactly what d: is for anyway. I will post a thread over there on the Project Chat. —Justin (koavf)TCM 04:07, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
Koavf, I was referring to importing a template from Wikipedia, which apparently I've done incorrectly. I am hoping for some guidance on how to do it correctly. Ground Zero (talk) 05:56, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
Admins can pull in Wikipedia content with full edit history (including authors) using Special:Import, which satisfies attribution requirements. If content is copied and pasted, see Wikivoyage:Cooperating with Wikipedia for details about providing attribution. -- Ryan • (talk) • 05:59, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Here is a new proposal:

Exchange rates for Nicaraguan córdobas (C$)

As of January 2017,

  • US$1 ≈ C$29.3
  • €1 ≈ C$30.6
  • UK£1 ≈ C$36.2

Note: exchange rates fluctuate. Please verify current rates.

Current exchange rates from XE.com: [2]

This requires periodic updating, as our current approach of including the info in the text in most articles does, but provides a link to current rates. It is not as easy to implement as a template, but I cannot get templates to work. Any further thoughts or comments? Ground Zero (talk) 22:52, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Also noting the Wikivoyage:Country article template says "Include here information on the currency and rough conversion rates for major currencies used by English-speaking travelers (US, Australian, Canadian dollars, euros, British pounds)", I think that my proposal is consistent with existing policy. I don't intend to add Aus and Cdn $, for the sake of brevity and ease of updating. US$, £ and € are widely used and understood by travellers. I'll start on this project in the coming days. Ground Zero (talk) 01:48, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

I've updated {{exchange rates‎‎}} to generate the same output as the proposed infobox to simplify implementation and allow these infoboxes to be tracked and updated en masse. Note that this was a quick-and-dirty update - if the template is going to be used widely then it can be cleaned up to handle missing arguments, additional currencies, etc. -- Ryan • (talk) • 21:53, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
I have been thinking that a single table with US dollar rate for each currency and perform arithmetic based upon that for other currencies. ie. 1 US dollar ='s 29.34 NIU ... 1 Euro = 1.0533 US then 1.0533 x 29.34 = 30.9 NIU etc. Though the pennies might be off a bit but close enough I would think. This single table could be in a Module by itself and another Module is used to read in the table and perform the calculations. Template would call the Module and output the infobox. That might work. Concerns - how to update the table and how often as there are about 180 currencies in the world and approximately 168 of these are fairly active. The single table itself would be fairly simple and elements can be added to it for other uses as well. Just a thought in passing... -- Matroc (talk) 08:50, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Hi, I must first say I haven't read this whole discussion, but on wikioverland.org, they have the ability to have a drop down menu at the top of their pages where users can choose which currency the article displays in (for example, see here and look in the top right of the desktop article). This is a site we're cooperating with (Wikivoyage:Cooperating with Wikioverland). Also, go onto that linked cooperation page, then go down to the section "currency conversion" - apparently they use a "custom MediaWiki extension to convert prices to any currency the reader wishes to use". Wikioverland has a page about this extension here. I don't know if this is any help or not, but the idea does look at least interesting.  Seagull123  Φ  00:05, 5 January 2017 (UTC)


Updating exchange rates in country articles[edit]

It seems like the currency bot to provide current exchange rates in country articles is not something we should expect to see soon. I find that when I am reading articles about a country, I want to know at least an approximation of the exchange rate, and be able to find it quickly. Now, the information is usually buried in the text. At Wikivoyage:Travellers'_pub#Currencies.2C_again I have proposed to start updating the country articles using this infobox, which would show the approximate exchange rates at the time of editing, and provide a link to a site with current rates for that country. Any comments or suggestions for improvement? I should note that my attempts to create a template failed as I cannot figure out how to make them work. Ground Zero (talk) 15:50, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Exchange rates for Nicaraguan córdobas (C$)

As of January 2017,

  • US$1 ≈ C$29
  • €1 ≈ C$30
  • UK£1 ≈ C$36

Note: exchange rates fluctuate. Please verify current rates.

Current exchange rates from XE.com: [3]

I think I have worked out a way to have a page where the exchange rates could be centrally updated, that would have to be manual but then other templates and pages would be automatically updated. Have not worked out all the detail, but before embarking on such a project would people be interested? --Traveler100 (talk) 08:32, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
Anything that makes it easier to update currency exchange rates would make the world a better place for our readers and editors. I say, "plunge forward!" Ground Zero (talk) 12:28, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
Take a look at {{Exchangerate}} --Traveler100 (talk) 16:09, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
T, I'm not clear what you're trying to do with this template. Is this (a) to replace the exchange rate boxes on the country pages, like the one just sbove? Or (b) to allow on-line conversion of prices, e.g., "a coffee costs 23,000 dong (USD1)"? Ground Zero (talk) 16:10, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
Intention is to use this in the existing templates (like this), removing the need to update exchange rates in lots of different places. All updates controlled from a single page. --Traveler100 (talk) 17:05, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Shekels[edit]

Ceever has been very productive lately in updating, listifying and adding content to articles about places in Israel. Along the way, Ceever has been replacing the ₪ sign with "NIS", as shown for example in this edit. Is this something we should be doing, or should all instances of "NIS" in articles about places in Israel instead by converted into the shekel sign? Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:32, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

The guidance on the currency page says "₪100 in Israel, not NIS 100, 100 NIS, nor 100 shekels", but personally as long as it's understandable in context I don't think it matters that much. -- Ryan • (talk) • 18:40, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
I don't see how replacing the symbol people will see with the ISO code improves things, unless the ISO code is what is actually used. Ground Zero (talk) 18:47, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
Agreed, and unless there's a consensus to not use the symbol, it shouldn't be changed. Powers (talk) 22:34, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Exchange rates[edit]

I'm updating exchange rates across the country articles using a version of the template above. For most countries, I am showing rates only for the major currencies: U$, € and UK£. In some cases, I'm adding another currency where there will be a lot of other English-speaking tourists, e.g., Canadian $ for the USA and Mexico, Australian $ for NZ and Indonesia, and South African rand for southern Africa.

For the eurozone, should I just show US$ and UK£, or show I add in Cdn$ and Aus$? Ground Zero (talk) 21:45, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

It may also be useful for countries in close proximity that are commonly traveled together to have their currencies compared. However, the only examples I could think of right now are the Nordic countries and Southeast Asia. You already mentioned the ZA Rand and in e.g. Central America the Dollar is already pretty dominant and few people ever change CRC into NIO for instance. Hobbitschuster (talk) 09:54, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
I have objection to adding local currencies in principle. The basic template is the same for all countries, however, so adding a lot of local currencies around the world would make it more complicated to use. User:Wrh2, who kindly created the template out of my ham-fisted infobox, had warned that if the template becomes too complex, out may require re-factoring. I don't know what that means. Ground Zero (talk) 13:21, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
"Refactoring" just means re-working the code if it becomes messy or complex - don't worry too much about that. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:39, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
We'll have to meddle with the template regardless in all cases where the US Dollar or the Euro is the national currency (and of course United Kingdom and the Falkland Islands). Unless we want to tell all our readers that one US Dollar is indeed one US Dollar. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:48, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
Ryan has already taken care of that. Check out United States of America or Panama. Ground Zero (talk) 21:11, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
Yes, I know. And it seems to not have broken the template, so I am naively asking (I know very little about this whole newfangled technology stuff) what the inclusion of other currencies or other ways of meddling with the template could do at worst? Broken currency symbols? Boxes and question marks? The end of the world as we know it? Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:25, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
Outside of my expertise, too. I guess you can experiment and see what happens in preview. The only issue I see is that there are a lot of currencies in the world, which would make the template very, very big, but if Ryan doesn't think we should worry about it, then I won't.
What value do you see there being for the reader, though? The reader at home will want to know how to convert prices to their own currency, whereas the reader on the road will look to the cambios to find the actual exchange rate for any currency they carry across the border. Who is the audience for the conversion between córdobas and quetzales? Ground Zero (talk) 23:25, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
Well given that we do not have a language version in any of the languages of South East Asia and apparently some of the currencies there enjoy some influence across their borders, maybe they could be of some use to some readers there? Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:41, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, that seems like a good reason. Ground Zero (talk) 15:18, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Euros[edit]

I have created a template to add to the "Buy" section of articles for countries that use the euro to show the exchange rates for USD, GBP, and Canadian and Australian dollars. If you have comments or suggestions, please join the discussion here: Template talk:Exchange rate euros. Ground Zero (talk) 00:07, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Euros[edit]

Swept in from the pub

I have created a template to add to the "Buy" section of articles for countries that use the euro to show the exchange rates for USD, GBP, and Canadian and Australian dollars. If you have comments or suggestions, please join the discussion here: Template talk:Exchange rate euros. Ground Zero (talk) 00:07, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

@Andrewssi2: - I'm going to move the discussion to Template talk:Exchange rate euros so that it can all be one place. Ground Zero (talk) 10:53, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Proposed change - USD vs US$[edit]

There seems to be a conflict withinWV:$ . On one hand, in the general introduction, it says, "The three letter ISO 4217 currency codes, like ... "USD" for the US dollar, should always be mentioned since .... In general they should not be used either in listings or in text, but exceptions can be made as needed to avoid ambiguity." But at the bottom of the ,"Symbols and abbreviations" section, it says, "If the country or article uses multiple currencies, including foreign ones, use the shortest unambiguous form for each. For US dollars, this is USD. For euros, it's €."

But "US$" is as short and unambiguous as "USD", so in the spirit of avoiding ISO codes except where needed to avoid ambiguity, why don't we use "US$"? While travellers are likely familiar with the ISO code, the "$" sign is instantly recognizable, and putting US in front of it makes it unambiguous.

I propose to change the above direction to: "... use the shortest unambiguous form for each. For US dollars, this is US$...." Yea or nay? (I don't propose to go about 'fixing' this discrepancy, only to make changes as I go along making other edits.) Ground Zero (talk) 19:46, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

This is nothing but a personal aesthetic preference, but I think USD just looks better than US$, U$ or most of the other alternatives when the peso sign by itself is not understood to mean United States Dollars. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:23, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

More templates[edit]

I know that there is an aversion to creating too many templates in Wikivoyage, but I think that there is a strong argument for doing so in these cases. I am proposing three more templates that will help make maintaining up-to-date currency exchange rates in country and overseas dependency articles.

With @Wrh2:'s generous technical assistance, we now have two templates for showing exchange rates:

  • Template:Exchange rates -- for use in most country articles, requires exchange rates to be loaded for each country
  • Template:Exchange rate euros -- allows the exchange rates for articles for the 21 countries that use the euro to be updated at one time, and potentially the articles of a bunch of overseas territories and dependencies that use the euro (e.g., French Guiana, Martinique, Réunion).

The three new ones that I am proposing are:

  • Template:Exchange rate EC - to allow the exchange rates for 8 countries that use the Eastern Caribbean dollar to be updated at one time.
  • Template:Exchange rate CFA - to allow the exchange rates for 14 countries in west and central Africa that use the CFA franc to be updated at one time.
  • Template:Exchange rate US - to allow the exchanges rates for 6 countries that use the US dollar to be updated at once, and potentially at least another 6 other territories (e.g., Guam, British Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico) that use the US dollar.

Updating exchange rates for individual countries is time-consuming. These templates will speed the process appreciably, and help keep Wikivoyage looking up to date.

These templates are, I hope, an interim solution until someone can produce a central exchange rate table that can be updated regularly, or is able to figure out haw to use Wikidata to update rates automatically.

Comments? Ground Zero (talk) 22:16, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

I suggest we make a single template with parameters controlling the output. Also consider some expand/collapse or mouse over for more information to keep the size small. --Traveler100 (talk) 05:38, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
Traveler100, I don't understand what you are proposing, but I am happy to go with that if you think it's better and can set it up. Ground Zero (talk) 15:21, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
I share the concerns about having lots of individual templates, so if I understand the proposed alternative it would be to support something like {{exchange rates|code=EUR}} or {{exchange rates|code=USD}}, without the need for lots of child templates. Does that sound right? It is very doable, but I don't want to make further changes without ensuring that's the desired outcome. -- Ryan • (talk) • 18:58, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

So this discussion has fizzled out, but I do not want to abandon the project to ensure that all country articles have exchange rates that are up to date as of January 2017 (other than war zones, for which there is little point.)

There are two options available: (1) use the regular Template:Exchange rates for the remaining countries, or (2) use the new templates that I have proposed. Which option puts the traveller first?

The motivation behind this project is to provide travellers reading WV an approximate idea of exchange rates so they understand better the prices bring used in our articles. Option 2 helps achieve that goal by making it less time-consuming for editors to update the exchange rates for these 34 articles, and so it is more likely that exchanges will be updated more often. Option 1 means having fewer templates.

While I understand that some editors here feel strongly on this point, it is hard to see how that is of more consequence to travellers than updated exchange rates.

It would be great to have a single template or other mechanism that would make the updating of exchange rates even easier, but so far no such template is available. I think that accepting a few extra templates to use as an interim while we continue to search for a better solution puts the traveller first. Ground Zero (talk) 00:52, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Apologies, I spent some time looking into improving the templates but didn't immediately come up with an acceptable solution; please don't let my lack of progress slow down the efforts to improve exchange rate information in articles. -- Ryan • (talk) • 00:54, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
No need to apologize. It's not like you get paid to do this. Ground Zero (talk) 18:56, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Listing currency symbols by country[edit]

After it was pointed out in the pub that the Taiwan article used four different notations for the country's currency -- TWD, NTD, NT$ and $ -- a discussion established that the last two are commonly used. I added these to the list of currencies in this article in order to document standard Wikivoyage notation and avoid the need to discuss this again. My addition was reverted with the comment that "this is not a comprehensive list, and Taiwan is a special case that doesn't belong in a list of symbol-only formats". I don't see in this policy where it says that countries should not be added, and if we aren't going to list them here, where should we list them? I don't think having multiple lists is useful. Ground Zero (talk) 05:46, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

I'd like an explanation, too. If this isn't where our most complete list goes, where should it go? Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:52, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
We don't have a complete list, though the length of this list could mislead people into thinking we do. The policy says to place a notice on the talk page of the country if there's any question. If you want a complete list, then we could make one, but this isn't it. More to the point, the specific section under which the Taiwan example was placed is only for currencies where the standard is just a currency symbol. The Taiwan example was thus out of place even if we did decide we wanted it here. Powers (talk) 19:56, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
How about Wikivoyage:Currency/List or Wikivoyage:Currency/List of Symbols with a link from the policy page to say that that is where we go into more detail? It would spare us recurring discussions and the "where did we have that policy" questions... Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:19, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
There is a lot about WV that is incomplete, so I don't think we need worry that readers will assume that something is complete. We already list about 50 countries here, and another 25 are covered by the euro. I think it is simpler to build this list than to split it between here and a separate page. If something is in the wrong place, it is probably better to move it than to delete it. That is how we work towards building a complete list. Talk pages do get archived from time to time, so I don't think that that is as effective approach than listing currencies in a central location like this one. Ground Zero (talk) 20:34, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

I think the argument for adding currencies to the list as they come up in discussion is made by the fact that the Taiwan dollar issue was discussed above in Oct 2014, but it wasn't in this list, it was just buried in a talk page. So we ended up discussing it again in the pub this month. Let's save ourselves time and trouble by building the list. Ground Zero (talk) 20:50, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

We can build the list, but I fear it would be unwieldy to include here. So if we place the list elsewhere we should reduce this list to representative examples only. Powers (talk) 00:29, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
I don't see why this list can't go in here (maybe at the bottom of the article, so it doesn't obstruct any important information). Look for instance at Wikivoyage:Phone_numbers, I find that so much easier to use than this page. Everytime I stumble on a new currency it takes me a while to find which is the right convention. Also see the discussion of a suggestion for restructuring this page by Ground Zero further down on this page. Drat70 (talk) 00:49, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Moroccan dirhams[edit]

The Moroccan articles use a wide range of currency notations. Although Morocco doesn't have a standard notation for its currency, Wikivoyage should choose one and go with that. I have restarted the discussion at Talk:Morocco#Currency. Ground Zero (talk) 17:35, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

I disagree. If they have no standard, we don't, either, because there's no good reason for us to waste time making things consistent when they aren't, in real life. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:38, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
This was just a pointer to direct people to the conversation I linked. Let's not split the discussion between two places. I've responded over there. Ground Zero (talk) 18:14, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Reorganizing this page[edit]

This page has evolved into a list of about 50 countries which are grouped accorded to how the currenncy is denoted, do it isn't easy to find a currency if you come here looking for information on how to denote it. I have taken scrub at reorganizing this page to make it easy for editors to find info rmation. I have posted a draft here: User:Ground Zero/Currency.

To avoid making the list longer than necessary, this draft groups countries into "Dollar currencies", "Peso currencies", "Eurozone", and "Other currencies". The last group is the largest and is organized alphabetically by country.

I have not added any countries to this list, but have clarified how we are actually denoted some currencies, where the page said that we were using a different format. These conventions have been adopted despite the general guidance that "Travellers should be able to assume that symbols used for multiple currencies (like $ or £ or ¥) apply to the local currency." In particular, our articles on countries using the peso with the "$" sign, for the most part, distinguish between pesos and dollars by denoting the local currency with a identifier like "M$" in Mexico, "COP$" in Colombia, etc. This is done because sometimes prices in tourist businesses are listed in US$ in these countries.

Similarly, our articles for a few dollar countries (Liberia, Namibia, Taiwan) generally use identifiers (L$, N$, NT$).

I have added one clarifying remark, but otherwise made only minor changes to the text:

  • "The means that for consistency and/or clarity, Wikivoyage will sometimes use notation that differs from the notation travellers will see in the countries they are visiting."

I moved the list of standard notation to the bottom of the article for easier navigation, and added examples of notation that we want to avoid where I have seen these notations arise.

I think we know that contributors won't always follow our style guides, and were generally happy with any constructive contributions to building the guide however they are formated. This page, like the other parts of the style guide, helps resolve counterproductive (and sometimes repeated) disputes over formatting.

Comments on the proposed reorganization? Ground Zero (talk) 01:07, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

I love the idea of a list for currency formats used for different countries. Often times when I edit prices for countries I usually don't edit, I find myself wondering what notation to use and the current version is not very clear on that, so I think this is a huge improvement. One question though, why don't you use an alphabetical table such as the one used for phone number format: Wikivoyage:Phone_numbers? Drat70 (talk) 01:06, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm glad you like it. The idea of grouping like currencies was to avoid duplicating the same text for a bunch of countries, but looking at it now, I don't think there would be a lot of duplication. I'm open to that idea if others agree. I would still suggest not listing all eurozone countries separately as that would add unnecessary bulk to the list. Ground Zero (talk) 02:20, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
@Drat70: I have made that change. Thanks for the suggestion. Ground Zero (talk) 22:08, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
Okay. I think that makes it much easier to find a specific country! I hope you'll get some input from other people on this as well. Drat70 (talk) 00:46, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
Me too. If there are no further comments in the next couple of days, I will make the change. That may generate some more comments. Ground Zero (talk) 02:32, 16 March •2017 (UTC)
Seeing no objections, I have made the change. Ground Zero (talk) 11:51, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Some proposed additions[edit]

Here are a few currencies that I think should be added to indicate the format that Wikipedia articles are generally using now:

  • Brazil: R$100 — not BRL 100, nor R100
  • Russia: RUB100 (rather than ₽100) — not 100 rbl, nor 100 RUB
  • Serbia: RSD100 — not PCД 100, 100 RSD, nor Д100
  • Tunisia: 100 DT — not 100 TD, 100TND, nor 100dn

Brazil and Russia are big destinations, so they should be listed. We do not seem to have adopted "₽" for Russia yet, which is okay because it seems that Russians haven't either. "RSD" is the best transliteration for "PCД", which seems to be common in Serbia. "DT" for "dinar tunisien" makes more sense than TD. Ground Zero (talk) 21:37, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Done. Ground Zero (talk) 01:20, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Egyptian pounds[edit]

Egypt is another country where there isn't a standard notation, and where our articles use a dizzying array of notations. I have asked here for help in figuring out what travellers are most likely to see. Ground Zero (talk) 20:43, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Resolved Ground Zero (talk) 13:14, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Bangladeshi taka[edit]

Which should be used -- or Tk? Please discuss at Talk:Bangladesh. Ground Zero (talk) 02:25, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Resolved Ground Zero (talk) 13:14, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Croatia and Armenia[edit]

Discussions underway about which symbols to use at Talk:Croatia and Talk:Armenia. Ground Zero (talk) 18:24, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Resolved Ground Zero (talk) 13:14, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Turkish lira[edit]

Discussions have started on what should become the standard notation at Talk:Turkey. Gizza (roam) 00:34, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

Resolved Ground Zero (talk) 13:14, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Iranian rial[edit]

Discussion has started on what should be the standard notation at Talk:Iran. Ground Zero (talk) 19:59, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Resolved Ground Zero (talk) 06:37, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

This edit[edit]

I realise that this edit by User:K7L is an attempt to make the point in a light-hearted and jocular manner, but I find it confusing and hard to read. I think that we would serve readers better by making the point more simply and plainly, but out of respect for K7L, I'd like to hear what other editors think before making changes. Am I have off-base here? Ground Zero (talk) 05:50, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

It's hard to follow because the worst "basket case" currencies are subject to multiple issues which make listings impossible to keep up-to-date:
  • Hyperinflation. If inflation is galloping along at 1000% or worse annually, any local prices we publish are meaningless.
  • Currency controls. Governments are prone to restrict export of currency from basket-case economies, making imports unavailable at any price. Good luck trying to find scarce imported medicines in Venezuela after world oil prices crashed in 2014, for instance.
  • Exchange restrictions or artificial "official" exchange rates at which no one is willing to sell hard currency. If the currency can only be exchanged on black markets (at ever more volatile rates) or can't be exchanged at all, listing hard-currency prices to circumvent hyperinflation of the local currency may still leave us with no stable, accurate measure of costs.
  • Price controls. Governments have been known to subsidize basic goods or attempt to regulate their price. When these schemes fail, there are long lines for staples (such as specific foodstuffs in the Cold War eastern bloc or fuel in the US during the 1973 Arab oil embargo). We can quote a price, which will be meaningless if the goods are only available at a higher price on a clandestine market or unavailable in sufficient quantities to meet local demand.
  • Demonetisation. A few governments have removed specific currency denominations from circulation; India and Venezuela tried this in 2016 in an attempt to sabotage unregulated "cash economies" operating where the regime was having trouble taxing or controlling the transactions. There's a limited window to exchange the demonetised currency (which serves to expose the transactions to regulators and tax authorities), then the old money becomes worthless.
  • Redenomination. Once a government has debased a currency to the point of worthlessness, they often will introduce a "new" currency, so that (for instance) one "new" ruble is exchanged for a thousand or ten thousand "old" rubles after the currency collapses. In some cases, such as Venezuela's "bolivar forte", the governments continue their spendthrift ways and the "new" currency also becomes worthless or nearly worthless.
  • Bank runs and ATM closures. The system might stop functioning entirely, due to a lack of liquidity. The advertised price is meaningless if there are no buyers or if shelves are bare.
  • Attempts to "peg" local currency to foreign money. Argentina tried this, setting a "fixed" exchange rate to USD, and ultimately went broke. These "pegs" break if the local currency is weak and the foreign money strong.
  • Outright abolition of a local currency. This happened with the Zimbabwe dollar a few years ago; the local currency scheme breaks down completely and the only alternatives are foreign currencies or barter. The demise of the Reichsmark in World War II in Europe would be another prime example.
In the worst cases, redenominating prices in Euro, USD, UK pounds, yen, Canadian Tire Money or live poultry might not even fix the problem as there is no open and free foreign exchange market. We might not be able to list any stable price if price and availability of commodities is not stable, relative to either the local money or actual hard currency. If the local economy resembles the Yakov Smirnoff description of the Wonder Bread lineup (which he hated, because "you'd line up and wonder if there'd be bread") sometimes the most we can do is explain and indicate "the situation was X on date Y" per Wikivoyage:When to use dates#Dates on prices and accept that we can't predict what anything will cost today, tomorrow or next week in a basket case economy unless and until stable markets are restored.
If you want to try rewriting this, be my guest. Just don't be surprised if the topic is complex enough that broken currencies and failed economies end up as the one special case which requires an entire section to address - with the results still being of limited value to the voyager as we're aiming at a moving, swerving target. K7L (talk) 14:00, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
How common is this, though? I mean nowadays most countries with such currencies have thick fat red warningboxes on them, right? Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:52, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
The warningbox template is for non-obvious dangers to life and limb. Venezuela has a huge red warning box due to violence and crime, but the demonetisation of 1000 rupee notes in India rates only a cautionbox in the "Buy" section and the reintroduction of toy "bond notes" in Zimbabwe last year raised no warning templates at all. Political unrest and economic collapse may occur together, but nothing says they will always correlate in this manner. A country can have serious economic issues but no red boxes. It's a minority of countries which are currently undergoing hyperinflation, but there are always a few... K7L (talk) 16:36, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
I think that real examples are more straightforward than made-up one, and have made changes accordingly. Ground Zero (talk) 06:37, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
Are the numbers in these "real examples" historically accurate? Certainly there are cases where the difference between "official" exchange rates and real prices on a clandestine market differ by far more than the 100:1 you've depicted, Venezuela today being a prime example. I also see you substituted "Dates on prices may be used" for the statement that they may be used as a last resort if neither local nor hard currency yields a stable price. This statement needs to be worded to be consistent with Wikivoyage:When to use dates#Dates on prices, which says "If the underlying currency is stable, as a general rule we don't append a date to a price. When a price changes, we update the guide without retaining any previous pricing information." The expressly-dated price is only used if there's no stable price to list. K7L (talk) 14:16, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
They are not necessarily historically accurate, but Wikivoyage would not used as a reference for these things, so historical accuracy is not required. The policy does not day "as a last resort", is says "as a general rule". That's not the same thing at all. I think that the policy is too restrictive, and will propose a change to it. Ground Zero (talk) 14:45, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
False information which looks real is more misleading than obvious placeholders ("lorum ipsum dolor sit amet...") in text. That said, dates on prices could well leave a listing with a {{listing}} or {{warningbox}} "lastedit=..." stamp to indicate when the whole thing was last verified and another specific date on the price and exchange rate. Certainly, if one new ruble is 1000 old rubles, we want to know whether the price was before or after the split, but for stable currency this is overkill. K7L (talk) 15:17, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
I don't see any circumstances where readers would rely on historical exchange rate information from a policy age for anything at all. Three are no Zimbabwe dollars anymore, for example. I will correct the Turkish lira example it was a 1000000:1 conversion, not 10000:1 conversion. Ground Zero (talk) 15:22, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Radix?[edit]

I see we have a shortcut wv:radix pointing to Wikivoyage:Currency#Formatting. Does this make any sense? From w:Radix, "In mathematical numeral systems, the radix or base is the number of unique digits, including zero, used to represent numbers in a positional numeral system." A binary number, therefore, would have a radix of two. Are we going to use these in hotel and B&B listings? "A room in the Carrier Hotel costs binary €11001001 a night, but the broadband Internet connection is 1100100% stable in every rack unit."

If not, maybe "radix" is the wrong word? K7L (talk) 14:48, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Quite right. I think the shortcut can be deleted. Ground Zero (talk) 15:17, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Idea: Currency and measurement templates[edit]

Swept in from the pub

There is an endless debate about how to express currency, and measurement such as distance and weight. One option would be to use standardized templates. Instead of writing amounts of money in plain text, we could use the template {{Currency|USD|17}} which would return the text "$17" by default. A reader could use a script which would insert conversion to a currency of choice, returning for instance "$17 (14,38 €)". The same could go for metric and Imperial units. What do you think? /Yvwv (talk) 21:28, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I would only be keen on this if we could make the listing editor do this automatically. If it could detect which country the listing is in from the breadcrumbs and convert a listing price=$17 in the US to {{Currency|USD|17}}, and one in Australia to {{Currency|AUD|17}} then it would be great. Otherwise it would be irritating to replace one keystroke with seventeen. AlasdairW (talk) 22:12, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
I absolutely think that's a good idea plus we discussed storing conversion rates at Wikidata so that they will automatically update. —Justin (koavf)TCM 22:14, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
I think that readers don't use scripts. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:24, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
I also wonder whether it's a good idea in general. "A bus ride costs 0.867 <your home money>, and you need to have exact change" is not as useful as "A bus ride costs 1 <local money>, and you need to have exact change". How often would it actually be helpful to know your home currency instead of (rather than in addition to) the local cost? WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:39, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
{{USD|17}} giving $17 has existed for a while now, but only inserted as test directly once so far in article. Used as part of the exchange rate tables when we centralized to rates editing. See {{Exchangerate}} and {{Exchangerate/list}} for more information. --Traveler100 (talk) 07:20, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
For measurements see Wikivoyage:Measurements, were some template such as {{km}} and {{ha}} are explained. For example {{km|2}} gives 2 km (1.2 mi) --Traveler100 (talk) 09:58, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Very small amounts[edit]

Do we use the 20¢ / 20p format, or the €0.20 / £0.20 format? If there is already guidance for one or the other, it should be written here, as well as wherever else it is written. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:24, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

That would depend on the custom in the country. I understand that the euro does not have a symbol for cents, so €0.20 is your only option. But as 20¢ and 20p are used in some countries, you'd use those if you felt like it for those currencies. Is this an issue that we need to resolve? Ground Zero (talk) 15:29, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
I would tend towards using words. For example "There is a twenty five cent deposit (Pfand) on non-reusable bottles" Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:35, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
@Ground Zero: There's no issue, other than the fact that what you've just written (while perfectly sensible) doesn't appear on this project page, or anywhere else. Just a statement that we should follow local customs would be enough, but having no info at all is a gap in our otherwise comprehensive manual of style. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:14, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Fair enough. Ground Zero (talk) 17:48, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
I am quite happy to write the sentence or short paragraph, but do you know what the actual collective name for these really small amounts is? Less than a whole unit of currency? Secondary unit? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:16, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
The term is "fractional units". Ground Zero (talk) 10:54, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
Ta. Feel free to improve my paragraph. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:58, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
The cent symbol is falling out of use in the U.S.; I don't see any reason to mandate its use over decimal dollars (i.e., $0.xx). Powers (talk) 01:15, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
You know better than me about that, so please do correct the entry as appropriate. The basic principle of "follow local usage" is a sound one, however. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:27, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
I think in the overwhelming majority of cases one would use words rather than symbols or the rather cumbersome 0.xy. After all, most currencies these days are worthless below one unit. The days of Dime Novels and Groschenromane (one "Groschen" used to be 10 Pfennige) are over if one looks at their prices. I for one would advocate striking off a zero of Dollar and Euro and two off the Nicaraguan Cordoba, but that is neither here nor there. Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:27, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
Where words are the local usage, that would be acceptable in my view. As a pointless aside, in the UK a well-known barometer for really cheap (i.e. pennies) products are Freddo chocolate bars. Like a gym might say "join now for less than the price a Freddo bar every day." --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:32, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
Wow, Americans use a $5 (£3.79) cup of coffee. Powers (talk) 20:30, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
In Canada, at least, the local usage would be "25¢", not "twenty five cents", which is a whole lot longer than necessary, and is crying out for a hyphen. Ground Zero (talk) 13:07, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
Does nobody there say "a quarter"? Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:24, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
Yes. The coins under $1 have the same name as in the US - nickel, dime, quarter, but we have no penny. $1 and $2 coins are "loonies" and "toonies", respectively. (The $1 coin has a loon (a water bird) on the back.) Ground Zero (talk) 13:30, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Jordanian dinar[edit]

"JD" or "JOD"? Please comment at Talk:Jordan#Currency_notation. Ground Zero (talk) 3 Jan 2018

Eastern Caribbean dollar[edit]

The Eastern Caribbean dollar is used by six independent states (Antigua and Barbuda, Dominica, Grenada, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia and Saint Vincent and the Grenadines) and two overseas British territories (Anguilla and Montserrat). Like the Eurozone, these countries are in a monetary and economic union.

Most tourist sights, restaurant and bar websites either express their prices as $100 or EC$100 (to distinguish it from the US). There are some that also express it as $100 EC. But EC$100 seems to be most common and is the most clear of the options. Gizza (roam) 03:21, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

The restaurants that just say $100 will usually specify whether it is US or EC. Many times, both prices are listed. I haven't been to the East Caribbean, but after reading a few online forum posts, it seems that seeing a $100 in the shops by default means EC, the exception being "splurge" listings catered to the foreign tourist, which are often expressed in US. Gizza (roam) 03:35, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
For clarity, this looks like it would be best to use EC$100 or US$100 as the case may be, following the example of Mexico, where we useM$ for clarity, although $ is commonly understood in the country tomeans pesos, not dollars. Ground Zero (talk) 17:27, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Ukrainian hryvnia[edit]

"UAH" or "₴"? Please comment at Talk:Ukraine#Currency_notation. Ground Zero (talk) 17:22, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

This question has come up again, with a proposal to use the Cyrillic abbreviation. Comment here please. Ground Zero (talk) 05:37, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Turkmenistan manat notation discussion.[edit]

Talk:Turkmenistan#Currency_notation. Ground Zero (talk) 20:30, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Danish kroner notation discussion[edit]

Talk:Denmark#Currency_notation. Ground Zero (talk) 17:02, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Changing currency[edit]

Swept in from the pub

Countries change their currency from time to time. I have the impression that this is more frequent lately, one prominent example being UK £ (GBP). I've added a few lines under UK / Buy / Money on the new banknote styles, and what to do if you're stuck with old notes. Plus a cross-ref under London / Get in / by plane since that's the main portal of entry, and where folk may be relying on an old stash to get them into town. Georgia and Belarus are a couple more that I've recently stumbled over, and will likewise update. So I make a general request for something similar, for any other changeover country that you may become aware of.

A related point is that when we describe an exchange kiosk's rates - often as "poor" - it helps to put a number on this. A good measure (not subject to daily fluctuation) is the spread, ie the % difference between "buy" and "sell" for major currencies. The traveller can then better judge if the "poor" rate is offset by the convenience of getting money in hand. Grahamsands (talk) 14:35, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

Further evidence that the UK is going you-know-where in a handbasket. Twice now I've been caught with "expired" currency while visiting the UK. I expect that in tin-pot dictatorships, but in a supposedly modern country? Okay, rant over. Ground Zero (talk) 15:15, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
Speaking of which, in Nicaragua they did replace the currency since my last visit (introducing for the first time since the last round of "cutting of zeros" a 1000 Cordoba note, which is a bit over 30 USD) but the old and the new series circulate at par and the old series will likely be withdrawn as it is torn to shreds due to having used a polymer susceptible to that... Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:56, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
The UK changes banknotes about once every 15-20 years. What is different about the current change to polymer notes is that there is a much shorter overlap period between introducing the new notes and withdrawing the old. The paper £10 note was withdrawn about 6 months after the polymer one was issued, but the previous change of £10 had nearly 3 years overlap, see w:Banknotes of the pound sterling. If you have any expired UK notes, you can change small amounts at a any bank branch, and deposit larger amounts in an account, in addition to the formal offer to change anytime at the Bank of England. AlasdairW (talk) 18:08, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
The "unelected Eurocrats" who decided to introduce a second series of € banknotes also decided that a) it would be one note per year (i.e. the 5€ were introduced, the year after that the 10€ and so on) and b) the old ones would (for now) remain legal tender. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:28, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
Canadian paper notes have been replaced by polymer, but the old ones don't expire. Once they hit a bank, they are pulled from circulation. I took less that six months for them to disappear from general use. The government has proposed making the $1, $2 and $1000 bills not legal tender, but they were last issued in 1987, 1996 and 2000, respectively. Ground Zero (talk) 18:42, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
This is definitely useful information. Sweden and Norway have recently redesigned their currency, I think Norway is still halfway in the process with some denominations already renewed and some yet to be launched. ϒpsilon (talk) 18:57, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
All countries need to occasionally renew their currency, to avoid the people from noticing how governments and banks rob value out of their pockets through the inflation mechanism. The higher inflation, the more frequent the need for currency renewal (or "cutting off zeroes"). 88.128.80.107 10:15, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
Finland did cut zeroes 1963, but that did not force us to invalidate old money (new 1 penni coins would look like the former 1 mk, and likewise new 1 mk banknotes would replace the former 100 mk ones). Any money ever released (since the markka was introduced in the 19th century, replacing Swedish and Russian money) was legal tender into the 1990s. Of course no one would use a 19th century coin or banknote, but you were allowed to (and the Jokioinen museum railroad did give change in obsolete but still valid banknotes from the 1970s). --LPfi (talk) 12:18, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Nepalese rupee notation discussion[edit]

Talk:Nepal#Currency_notation. Muddyhikers (talk) 17:43, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

French Polynesia currency notation[edit]

Please see discussion here. Ground Zero (talk) 00:13, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Putting the € sign after the amount[edit]

Swept in from the pub

Who on earth introduced the barbarous custom unbeknownst to good citizens of Europe to write "€6" when nobody says "Euro six" but everybody says "Six Euro(s)"? Is this just laziness by our American and/or British friends who are used to having the currency sign where it does not belong or do any Euro-paying people actually do that? And how could that ever enter our Manual of Style? Or is it not in it at all and instead somebody chooses to enforce a policy we do not, in fact, have? Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:04, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

It is, in fact, in the MOS. I was confused when I saw it, too. ARR8 (talk) 16:10, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
You do see both. commons:Category:Price tags in Germany, commons:Category:Price tags in Italy, and in many currencies how it is written is not always how it is spoken. --Traveler100 (talk) 16:13, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
Try shopping online at an Irish supermarket sometime. You'll see they put the symbol before the number, as is the norm in English, no matter the currency. You'll also find that, e.g. the French Wikivoyage lists prices in pounds and U.S. dollars as e.g. 10 £ / 12,5 $ (yes, note the horrifyingly primitive use of a virgule instead of the proper decimal point. The horror!) It's a language thing, not a "barbarous custom", nor "laziness", and is an entirely proper part of our MOS.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:43, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
If that were so, it would have to be done with all currencies, but that is not - to my knowledge - currently the case. Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:48, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
True, that is indeed not the case with every currency denomination, but most articles using currency symbols ($, €, £, ₹, ¥) as opposed to letters or words do conform to this rule. And in the two other examples of partially English-speaking countries which use the euro, that's how they do it on the ground in English too: Cyprus, Malta.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:47, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
And check almost any English-language newspaper, magazine or book. €100 is the standard format when writing in English, not 100 €. Ground Zero (talk) 18:14, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
It's probably intended to work the same way as the dollar symbol; for example, $100, with the $ symbol before the number. I don't see anything wrong with "€6", to use Hobbitschuster's example, and while it may not be technically correct, anyone reading the article will know what it means. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:28, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
The idea that English is consistent cannot honestly be believed by anyone who has learned to spell it. ;-) WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:30, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

$100 is just as illogical as €100, but at least the former is used by the majority of those who pay in USD. The same cannot be said for Euros. Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:31, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

100€ doesn't look like English to me. There's some Logic to german Punctuation and Spellingconventions, but this is the english Wikivoyage. I vote for €100. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:50, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
English speakers are the people who put almost all adjectives before the nouns; have "they're", "their", and "there", all pronounced the same; have "hear" and "here", pronounced the same but different words; use "be", "being", "been", "is", "was", "were", "am", and "are", all of which function as the same word; use verbs ending in "s" some of the time and not ending in "s" other times (like "he speaks" but "I speak"); include letters with sounds that vary depending on each specific example (for example, "city" and "Canada", or words like "Celts" where the "C" is pronounced differently depending on the speaker); have almost no accent marks so you cannot know where to emphasize syllables; and on the list goes. We do a lot of things that don't seem logical, but they're what people are used to and what people expect, so we do them. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:14, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
And what about 17, you say seven-teen, not teen-seven (but the French do say dix-sept = ten-seven), but everybody knows what you mean. However from 21 the the numbers and the words are in the same sequence. --FredTC (talk) 06:27, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
Unlike German: neunundneunzig = nine and ninety. Logically, they should reverse the nines when writing the figure, so it's done in the proper way of 99, instead of that barbarous nonsense of 99.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:05, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
At one time they actually used to do numbers in expanded form, but with scores of years. For example, 42 years would be "two score and four years" — think of Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address. In some ways, that made more sense, but then, why use scores of years instead of tens?
All of these things make it harder to learn the English language, and honestly, Hobbitschuster, I think you're just discovering the way the English language orders currency symbols and the associated values. It's just one example of where the English language doesn't work logically, but putting the currency symbol before the amount is still correct in the English language. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 14:53, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
On "four score and seven": I offer you by analogy "quatre-vingt sept". Or how about "quatre-vingt onze"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:24, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
"Sing a song of sixpence, a pocket full of Rye,
Four-and-twenty blackbirds baked in a pie,
When the pie was open, the birds began to sing!
Oh wasn't that a dainty dish to set before the king?" --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:45, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
And imagine how it would sound like this:
"Sing a song of sixpence, a pocket full of Rye,
Twenty-and-four blackbirds baked in a pie,
When the pie was open, the birds began to sing!
Oh wasn't that a dainty dish to set before the king?" I think we might as well say that it's not wrong to do "$100" or the same with euros or any other currency symbol. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:47, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
(Parenthetical, but "twenty-and-four blackbirds baked in a pie" scans exactly the same as "four-and-twenty", etc. It sounds wrong only because we're used to the latter.) Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:18, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
FWIW, the European Union itself apparently published rules on it, specifying quite clearly that the Euro sign precedes the amount (without space) in English, Dutch, Irish, and Maltese, while following it (after a hard space) in all other (EU) languages. As in so many things, it boils down to the language it is embedded in. When writing in English, one may of course refer to Munich and Cologne, even though that's not what the locals say. Similarly, when writing in English, it seems perfectly legitimate for me to write "€6", just as we also write "¥6", and not "六块". FabHK (talk) 17:15, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for the info; it makes sense. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:19, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Belarusian ruble[edit]

I visited this country last month and have been using this formatting (BYN100) while adding prices to Belarus articles. Belarusian ruble isn't on the list so I borrowed Russian formatting (RUB100) as a guide since both use rubles. Are there any oppositions to me adding Belarus' currency formatting to the list? OhanaUnitedTalk page 02:54, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

What is the most common way of expressing the currency that you've seen in symbols or Latin letters? That's what we should use. We wouldn't use Cyrillic letters, per WV:$, but we would avoid using the ISO, unless that is what travellers would normally see. There are a lot of countries where we just spell out the currency name instead of using a symbol, e.g. Thailand, Vietnam, Morocco, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Laos, Armenia, Azerbaijan. Ground Zero (talk) 09:22, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
To be honest, everywhere is written in Russian (so 1 рубль for 1 ruble). The only time I saw Latin letters for currency was at the restaurant in an American hotel chain, and it says "10.00 BYN". OhanaUnitedTalk page 05:46, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
So it sounds like the "100 rubles" format would be best. If you're going to Russia, too, maybe you could report back on what you see there (is anyone using the ₱ symbol?) I kind of suspect that the "RUB100" format dates from a time long ago when there was one editor trying to push ISO codes for all currencies, instead of what travellers will see, but I don't remember from my last trip there 14 years ago. Ground Zero (talk) 06:27, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
I already returned home and I don't think Russia is on my list for next little while. I do agree that "100 rubles" is what locals would say, but I fear that it can be confusing because readers could mix up with Russian rubles (which is what everyone think of when "ruble" is mentioned because it's more widely circulated). Let's see what others chime in and have to say on this topic. OhanaUnitedTalk page 02:10, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
We do use "$" in Canadian articles as the accepted norm (and Australia, NZ, Singapore....) It can be clarified by specifying Belarusian rubles the first time in each article. Linking in this way can be useful as it links the reader to exchange rates: 100 Belarusian rubles. Ground Zero (talk) 02:30, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
@Ground Zero: Here's a question. How come Russia uses "RUB100" instead of "100 rubles"? I would imagine most people would people would connect rubles to Russia rather than "RUB". The logic seems a little backwards if we mandate rubles as the notation for Belarus currency but RUB for Russia. OhanaUnitedTalk page 04:55, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
@OhanaUnited: I added that in March 2017 "to indicate the format that Wikipedia articles are generally using now". I haven't been to Russia since 2005, so I don't know what travellers should expect to see in shops and restaurants now. (I don't remember what was commonly used then, either.) What we commonly use in Russia articles is not a good basis for what we should use in Russia articles, let alone what we should use in Belarus articles. At Talk:Russia, I will ask people who've been to Russia if what they see most commonly is "руб", "рубль" or "РУБ", because I suspect that whatever are using is wrong. The Wikipedia article on the w: Russian ruble says that the symbol is "₽, руб / р. (colloquially)". We use £ for the UK pound, which is the best-known pound, but not for the Egyptian pound because £ isn't used in Egypt. Ground Zero (talk) 12:06, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

@OhanaUnited: we haven't had input from any other users. What are your thoughts now? I still don't want to use the ISO code as it seems overly formal to me, and don't think we should use it if it isn't used there. Ground Zero (talk) 15:15, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

@Ground Zero: I think the country-level page (Belarus) should mention Belarusian rubles in the first instance and wherever makes sense. Cities and town pages can probably get by with just "rubles". Any potential source of confusing (e.g. border towns between Russia/Belarus or Belarus/European country) should be spelled out each time. How does it sound? OhanaUnitedTalk page 01:13, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
That makes sense to me. Thanks. Ground Zero (talk) 01:19, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
Done. OhanaUnitedTalk page 04:23, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Ranges[edit]

Write price ranges using a single currency symbol and a single dash with no spaces, e.g. Dinner: €10–20

I personally find "€10–20" visually unappealing and syntactically irksome ("10 euros and 20 what, exactly?). Plus, there's always a chance, at least when using a shorter dash, that "€10-20" is mistaken for €10.20 by speedy readers.

In full knowledge that this is the worst set of arguments possible, I humbly submit a proposed amendment thusly:

Write price ranges using a currency symbol accompanying each unit and a single dash with no spaces, e.g. Dinner: €10–€20

It just looks better, reads better, and is unambiguous. In my opinion, at least.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 01:02, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't buy the ambiguity argument. Are there any countries that use the hyphen as a decimal place?
I find "€10–€20" to be awkward and ugly. I prefer the current format.
If it is going to be changed, then I hope that there is a plan to run a bot to change instances of the old format. Otherwise, all we'd really being doing is making most of our listings offside of the formatting policy. I don't think that's good. Ground Zero (talk) 08:56, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
At the end of the day, it's a personal preference, as is yours. We'll just see what people think, if there's interest in changing it, then great, if not we'll stick to the status quo, and I'll continue to stew about it privately 😊 --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:21, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
I have to say I also prefer TT!'s proposed format. No need to mandate one or the other, though; we could allow either, as long as usage on a given page is consistent. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 00:03, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
We adopt consistent formats to make it easier for travellers to find the information they need. I don't think catering to editors' preferences is consistent with putting the traveller first. I can live with whichever format the consensus prefers, but I really have a problem with changing the format without a plan to change our articles to reflect the new format. Doing it manually is such a massive job that it will never happen. I don't see TT's format very often, so this proposal, so far, would just make the large majority of listings violate the Manual of Style. That is not going to make Wikivoyage better. Without an automated solution, the status quo has a very strong advantage for readers and for the project by virtue of being what we are doing already. Ground Zero (talk) 00:40, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
I wouldn't think of it as an "old" and "new" format, or a choice between them, but rather allowing an extra one, so there's no worry with regards to changing existing pages. Also, I really don't think this is a ttcf issue, nor does it really reflect on making it easier or harder to find information. It's just an extra currency symbol...most readers probably won't notice. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 01:38, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
The discussion started with a concern about ambiguity if the current format, which I don't agree with. But if we start using €40-50 in some articles and €40-€50 in others, then I think we're creating ambiguity. Giving editors choice does not address TT's concerns about the current format. In [Wikivoyage_talk:Time_and_date_formats#Opens_and_closes_in_the_afternoon this recent discussion], a decision was made to prefer "1-4PM" over "1PM-4PM". That format, and the current range format, avoid repetition, and so are more concise. Ground Zero (talk) 01:52, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
Alright, if you insist. I'm not really concerned about ambiguity; I just think the other way looks nicer. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 02:10, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
I'm not insisting -- it's not up to me alone. I'm just trying to raise what I think are valid concerns. Ground Zero (talk) 02:58, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Philippine peso[edit]

There is a discussion here about whether to use P or ₱. Other views would be welcome. Ground Zero (talk) 08:57, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Taiwan dollars[edit]

I would just like to ask, why did WV decide that for Taiwan, prices should be listed using "NT$" instead of just "$"? Isn't it convention here that if you just see a "$" sign for a dollar-using country, you can assume it is the local currency and not US$. For instance, we don't write "HK$1" in our Hong Kong article, since "$1" is assumed to be one Hong Kong dollar, so I don't see why we need to be different for Taiwan. The dog2 (talk) 16:53, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

It was decided here. Generally I think that local use is more useful for readers, so it is a better guide for us than consistency across articles. I haven't been to Taiwan yet, so I don't know, but Wikipedia is probably not wrong. Ground Zero (talk) 18:18, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't see that, but I'll respond here since that's a very old thread. I've been to Taiwan, and over there, if you see a "$" sign without any other initials, you can be pretty sure they are referring to NT$ and not to US$. It is very rare to see prices advertised in US$ even at the airport. Both $ and NT$ commonly appear in Taiwanese price tags, but I wasn't there long enough to give a fair assessment on which format is more common. Sometimes, you won't even see the $ sign, and they will just denote the price using numbers and the Chinese character for the currency. In fact, it is not uncommon for the currency unit to just be completely dropped. The dog2 (talk) 18:55, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Actually, I have barely seen a dollar sign when I was there. I made a collection of all pictures with a currency symbol that I could find from my Taiwan trip, here: Commons:Category:Taiwan Currency ... and most use , one was NT $.
Furthermore, I checked some accommodation websites, I found NTD, NT, NT $, and of course , but never $. Also, from the WV country page it seems 新臺幣 means New Taiwanese Dollar aka NTD aka NT$.
Hence, using $ would certainly be worse than what we have now with NT$. However, having considered this topic, I am now actually more in favor of using 100元 instead of NT$100. So, should we have a discussion about this option?
Cheers, Ceever (talk) 21:12, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
If you do a Wikimedia commons search for "Taiwan price tag", you can see some with just $ ([4], some of which are quite recent. But yes, I definitely agree that 100元 or just 100 is more common than either $100 or NT$100. As I previously mentioned though, if you're in Taiwan and just see $, you can pretty much assume it refers to NT$, not U.S. dollars, Australian dollars or any other dollar currencies. If it was U.S. dollars or Australian dollars, they will specify (eg. US$, A$). The dog2 (talk) 21:52, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Mmmhh, the amount of $ signs is really limited in your example. I found many more 元 and no $ in the pictures of just one holiday. Maybe it changed recently, but I really feel that $ would be the worst currency denotation we could use for Taiwan. But we should probably move forward switching to 元. Ceever (talk) 09:09, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
We have generally avoid symbols that would not be familiar to English-speaking readers, like 元, and have chosen to use "baht" instead of ฿, but I don't really know why we've taken that approach. I suppose that using familiar symbols/words is easier for armchair travellers, but it contradicts our general approach of using the symbol that travellers are most likely to see in the country. Further, we violated the "familiar" principle in accepting "грн" for Ukraine, and I have proposed using "руб" for Russia. Does anyone know how to add "元" and "руб" to the Wiki markup currency line at the bottom of the edit screen? Ground Zero (talk) 13:42, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
I see what you did there ... ;-)
Well, from the discussion on Ukraine, we can edit the symbols at MediaWiki:Edittools - I do not have permissions though. Maybe it would make sense to also include a two letter country code here, because all those currency symbols become more and more confusing.
My suggestion would be: EU: — CZ: — UK: £ — UA: грн ... etc.
On Taiwan, should we go with NT$ for the moment, unless someone is willing to change everything to 元? (Though, the questions remains, if we go with 元, whether to use 100元 or 100 元.)
Cheers Ceever (talk) 07:02, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
In the Japan article, we use ¥100 instead of 100円 even though you often see the latter when you go there, so I don't think using just "$" in the Taiwan article will be confusing, but that's just me. Honestly, I wouldn't mind switching to using ฿ for the Thai baht and ₫ for the Vietnamese dong since those symbols are actually commonly seen when you travel to their respective countries. The dog2 (talk) 03:13, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
In English-language signage in Japan, ¥100 is used. 100円 is used in Japanese-language signage. Wikivoyage is written for people who speak English as a primary or secondary language. Native Japanese-speakers are not our main audience. Ceever's July 5th post above addressed why NT$ is better than $ effectively. I don't object to ฿ and ₫, but we'd need a broader discussion in the community before doing so (and a specific proposal for that). Ground Zero (talk) 03:39, 28 July 2019 (UTC)