Talk:Istanbul to Izmir

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Moved from "Flights" section[edit]

This information might be useful in Istanbul Airport or Istanbul#By plane if it isn't already there, but it is probably not so relevant here:

Izmir Adnan Menderes Airport is 16 kilometers south of the center of Izmir. If you are going from the airport to the center of Izmir, you can use the Izban local train service or the local city bus. The local rail has the most frequent departures, with trains approximately every 12 minutes. Take an Izban train to Aliaga and transfer from Basmane to the central city metro system.

Flight ticket prices can be viewed on the ticketing site by clicking.

Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:58, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from "Bus" section[edit]

You can select your bus here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:14, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from "Train" section[edit]

You can book train tickets on goverment official site Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:03, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Structure[edit]

What do you think of the way this article is structured at this point? I've been dividing up possible driving itineraries by showing some basic route, kilometerage and time information. If we continue this way, the next steps would be to subdivide the "By car/Intermediate" itinerary into "1. Istanbul to Bergama" and "2. Bergama to Izmir", and then subdivide the "Slowest" driving itinerary into "1. Istanbul to Çanakkale", "2. Çanakkale to Ayvalık", "3. Ayvalık to Bergama" and "4. Bergama to Izmir". At some point, the "By bus" method would also benefit from being subdivided into one or more possible slower itinerary with stops breaking up the trip.

Your comments, everyone? I didn't want to post any of this at Vfd because I think that's a poor place to discuss the development of an article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:29, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have been thinking about this article for a while, and I intent to add towns on or just off the route as side trips. However there is a few issues I cannot come up with proper solutions, e.g., Eskişehir is feasible only if you are taking the rail route, Bandırma is not somewhere you'd really go to unless you do the ferry route (not included in the article right now), or the Edremit Gulf area (from Assos to Ayvalık) can be included in any car route possible (currently described as "fastest", "intermediate", and "slowest"). Giving the markers different colours on the map might do, but I am not sure. My initial thought was to add the towns however I'd see fit at that moment (perhaps in a geographical order as much as different possible routes allow), and then see if it is okay with everyone. Vidimian (talk) 09:17, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Please add any towns and adjust any routes as you see fit! You know these places, whereas I've yet to have the pleasure of visiting Turkey. I think it's OK to mention that some places really aren't feasible to visit except with one method of transportation, though, if we decide to keep this article as a series of alternative itineraries by plane, rail, bus and car. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:51, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

vfd[edit]

This was created by a user with only one edit over a month ago. This doesn't have an article template and this is just a transport route that fails WIAA. Tai123.123 (talk) 23:39, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's a perfectly reasonable idea for an itinerary. I wouldn't support deletion, and we normally give itinerary articles a year before they face deletion nominations. If there have been no substantive edits by then, it might make sense to merge and redirect to Izmir then. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:44, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge to Izmir. This is not an itinerary; it is "Get in" information. Wikivoyage:Itineraries says "An itinerary is a guide for traveling along a specific route through several destinations or attractions, giving suggestions of where to stop, what to see, how to prepare, etc." This article does not attempt to do that. A drive-by contributor put the information in the wrong place by creating a new article. We shouldn't keep it in the wrong place for a year because of that. It is better to put the up-to-date information where readers will find it. Ground Zero (talk) 15:12, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Wait -- Ikan Kekek is planning to work on this. He should be given time to see whether this can work as an itinerary. Ground Zero (talk) 20:56, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Personal? That's like saying New York to DC or Rome to Milan are "personal itineraries." I think the other arguments above are stronger. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:15, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above arguments are much stronger for this particular attempt, I'm just covering all bases. Istanbul to Izmir shouldn't turned into an itinerary, because they're two arbitrarily chosen cities that, if the article were to be developed into a decent attempt at one of our itineraries, would be linked by a personally-chosen route with calling points included or omitted at the whim of the author(s) (the same would be true of the examples you gave, btw). It is my understanding that an itinerary linking two arbitrarily-chosen (by a Wikivoyager) points on a map always constitutes a personal itinerary. This is in contrast to a real-world itinerary that has an attested route and start, calling abd end points, e.g. the Trans-Siberian Railway, the London South Bank Walk, Route 66. I hope that makes my point clearer.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:35, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's an elaboration, yes, but I don't agree with it, when there are obvious, standard routes. That would be the test, if we are going to use one (and I'm skeptical about this whole line of objection, anyway, as it has been overbroad in the past). Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:48, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's probably an argument for another day 🙂.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:25, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If the article had a string of points of interest along the way from Istanbul to Izmir, then it would be a reasonable itinerary. As it stands, there is no more reason to think there is an itinerary to follow between these two cities that any other pair of random but proximate cities. Ground Zero (talk) 21:11, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The "By train" and "By car" sections have embryos of itineraries. I don't see the urgency in redirecting, let alone deleting this stub. Perhaps someone will decide to make this article into a more fleshed-out itinerary in the next 11 months or so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:01, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not proposing to delete information, but to put it somewhere where readers are better able to find it. Ground Zero (talk) 22:49, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Questions: Folks, do we or do we not allow itineraries a year before we nominate them for deletion? And do we have different rules for non-vandalistic IP users than registered users? Finally, who up and changed these rules without any general discussion that led to a new consensus? (And lurking in the background somewhere, why is a redirect argument appropriate to entertain on this page, rather than speedy keeping the article and continuing the discussion on its talk page?) Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:05, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The premise of this question is that this article constitutes an itinerary. As I've explained above, I disagree with this premise. I don't think that it is appropriate to discuss the rules for itineraries as part of this discussion. Ground Zero (talk) 22:49, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What do you call this, then?
"If you take the morning shuttle, you will have time to explore Eskişehir's museums, art galleries and small old town district before boarding the daily evening Izmir Blue Train. Izmir Blue Train leaves at 11.15pm with Eskişehir Train Station (train station) to chug to Izmir's Basmane Train which takes 11.5 hours."
And this?
"The fastest route through Bursa is 478 kilometers and will take approximately five hours without interruption. However, it would be logical to deviate from the highway in Soma and visit the Roman ruins in Bergama along the way and continue south from here to İzmir. This will make the total length of the trip 496 kilometers, which is still very doable in one day. However, in order not to rush to explore Bergama, you should set off early in the morning.
If you want to take a more circuitous route and drive along the Aegean coastline for a few days, overnight stops will be Çanakkale (for Gallipoli Peninsula and Troy) and Ayvalık or Bergama for Bergama."
Are those just "Get in" routes from Istanbul to Izmir, or are they suggested itineraries, though not fleshed out in detail? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:28, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Ikan here. This could be a reasonable itinerary; it isn't yet, but that's not a reason for deletion.
Like Hong Kong to Kunming overland it covers travel from a major transport hub to a popular tourist destination, with some info on interesting places between. That is an entirely reasonable thing to do. Pashley (talk) 03:35, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's fair enough. Maybe it's sensible to add the up-to-date practical information to the destination articles, and leave this article for a year to see if it develops into a real itinerary. —Granger (talk · contribs) 05:48, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The few comments about sights to see along the way really don't make this an itinerary. Those comments could be made about the trips between any two cities. I don't see anyone jumping in to say that they want you develop this into a useful itinerary article, only that they think someone else might do it. I don't think this is a good use of time. Ground Zero (talk) 16:13, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
By policy, it should be given a year. We now want to have Vfd discussions of embryonic itineraries after 1 month, and that's a good use of our time because? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:53, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If we will eventually have to deal with this problem why put it off for 11 more months. It seems like no one has developed it anymore in the last month so I doubt it will grow in the coming year. Tai123.123 (talk) 18:17, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Because we always "put these things off" for a year by policy. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:26, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm very busy this week, especially between now and Wednesday. However, I'll try to add a bit more structure and some internal links soon, if it's worth my time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:28, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Following policy is a good thing. Everyone who knows about the one-year rule should be allowed to trust that it is followed. One should be able to go on a trip assured that one can continue one's work on return, without the hassle of asking for undeletion. It might be unclear whether this is an itinerary, but let's err on the side of caution. –LPfi (talk) 22:33, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a case of a regular contributor being able to count on the rules, but rather of a one-time visitor who dropped a bunch of information and then left. (I would hope that a regular contributor would use a draft space to start a project that they know they couldn't finish in a reasonable time, but even if they didn't, I think we'd take less immediate action.) But as Ikan Kekek plans to work on this, we should not take any action on this to give him time to work on it. Ground Zero (talk) 02:37, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Keep for now following the 12-month rule. It can revisited 11 months later and merged into Izmir if it's not up to standard. Having said that, there is already a solid amount of information. It's just not formatted properly, making it look worse than it actually is. And the 12-month rule applies to articles started by both newbies and experienced editors. Gizza (roam) 02:50, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • I would support merging to Izmir as commented previously because this is a policy, not content quantity issue, and therefore shouldn’t be subjected to the 12-month rule. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 15:57, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand the logic in your position. Wouldn't it be the case that because the policy is that itineraries have 12 months to exist before they can be nominated for deletion, we shouldn't even consider this for another 11 months? Besides, when did you look at the article? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:18, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep not one year yet. I'm ok with merging though. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:30, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I think I've finished my current round of edits on this article. Let's please have a discussion at Talk:Istanbul to Izmir#Structure and put this deletion nomination to bed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:31, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And note further discussion at Talk:Istanbul to Izmir#Structure. I'm hopeful that Vidimian will have the time to improve the article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:48, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Outcome: Kept. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 21:55, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To Guide[edit]

This itinerary is clearly usable now, so I promoted its status. What is needed for guide status? I think some photos, for one thing, and also some route maps. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:58, 27 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a dynamic map, and I wish I could mark the routes with relevant colours as the urban rail lines, etc, are shown in the maps of some of our articles for larger cities. I will look into illustrating the article with pictures. Vidimian (talk) 08:35, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Vidimian It's possible to manually create a marker for the urban rail lines, which can be seen at User:SHB2000/Getting a line on an itinerary. I'm happy to help if needed.
To guide status, I'd say some photos, a prepare section and a custom banner. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:38, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@SHB2000: As an initial trial, I tried adding the "fastest" route following the instructions provided at your userspace linked above, but failed for some reason. Is it possible that you look into it, fix what went wrong, so I can emulate the diff for a better result next time? Vidimian (talk) 08:57, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed it. Special:Diff/4367180 and Special:Diff/4367181. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:59, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I did my second round for one of the ferry routes, trying to mark it with blue, but failed again. Any idea what went wrong this time? Vidimian (talk) 09:07, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed the boat route. The issue was that it had an invalid hex code. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:21, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Great, thank you. I tried adding 2nd and 3rd ferry routes, following the exact same set-up as in your edit, and it seems they are shown alright. Thanks again. Vidimian (talk) 09:26, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is really coming along! I think with some well-chosen images, this will be a guide and can then be nominated for a feature. Amazing that it was nominated for deletion... Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:09, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Vfd → featured would be pretty cool, yes.
However, I've found representative images are surprisingly hard to come by at Commons. For the banner, I was thinking something along the lines of a highway sign which shows the directions (perhaps divergingly) for Istanbul and Izmir in one shot, but bad luck. I actually know such a sign (on the northeastern approach to the Osman Gazi Bridge), but it's far away from me, I have no plans to travel around there currently, and it's on the side of a motorway where you can't really stop for a photo anyway.
For the images spread through the text, I think the approach to pick the most attractive pictures from the most interesting places along the route is most preferable. Vidimian (talk) 16:00, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:04, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think maybe the "By bus" section should be fleshed out a bit more, too, before we promote this to guide. Is it easy to break bus trips in any of the places mentioned in the "By car" itineraries? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:57, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I added a paragraph. I hope it's clear enough and takes care of the probable question marks. Vidimian (talk) 11:14, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This article is not connected to any Wikidata item and I can't seem to find any suitable items to connect it to. Should a new item be created? (I forgot how to create a new item) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:24, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
But apart from the Wikidata thing, the only thing I'd like is a custom banner. Once its done, I support the upgrade, and I'll probably be nominating it for FTT. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:25, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
For Wikidata, the best I can think of at the moment is the item for the O-5 motorway, although O-5 is just one of the routes described in this article. I have never created a new item over at Wikidata.
I regularly check Commons with this article in my mind, but am yet to find a picture representative and good enough for a banner. Do you happen to have any suggestions? Vidimian (talk) 13:02, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure. It's usually hard to find something representative for itineraries such as this one. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 13:09, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── [undent] Is a Wikidata listing for this article essential? Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:04, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure, but I think it's a standard for all articles across Wikimedia to be connected. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:43, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Now that the banner is added, what else should be done to get this article up to guide status? Perhaps a livelier intro and a more beefed-up understand section, but I am not sure what else could be added that's not already there.
As well, proofreading by native or near-native speakers would be appreciated. (I often produce very convoluted sentences with an odd choice of words, and drowned in details that no one else seems to be caring about, such as this one.)
On another, a little more pedantic note, where should this article be breadcrumbed to: Asia itineraries or Intercontinental itineraries? Sure, it's not intercontinental in the sense of, e.g., the "trip" taken by Alexander the Great, but it starts in a city clinging onto the bottom-right corner of the map of Europe, and one of the suggested routes crosses that tiny bit of territory just west of the city in its early stage. Vidimian (talk) 10:34, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Turkey is a little bit of a weird one, but given Turkey is breadcrumbed under the Middle East, I think we should probably stick with Asia. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:49, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's almost two months now, but I think this can be upgraded to guide now. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 13:27, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I upgraded it to guide.Vidimian (talk) 07:53, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Now time to nominate it at dotm for ftt. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:04, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like a good idea. Vidimian (talk) 09:07, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Banner 1
Banner 2
Banner 3
Banner 4

In keeping up with some of the comments above, here are some suggestions for a banner, to get the ball rolling. I'm not fully satisfied with any of them, but anyway.

  • 1 — multiple choices to go to Izmir, the motorway (green sign, to the right) and the state highway (blue sign, straight ahead) in this case. The downsides are the photograph quality and symmetry are not great, and it wasn't taken in any of the routes described in the article (rather in Aydın, south of Izmir, instead).
  • 2 — the combination of the sea, olive trees, and the wind is what summarizes "going down to the Aegean" the best, and the wind-induced shape of the tree gives a feeling of movement. However, the tree might not be that familiar to everyone. The photo was taken in Pelitköy, near Burhaniye close to one of the routes.
  • 3 — the Aegean is reknowned for the most beautiful sunsets in Turkey, and this one is an attempt at capturing that sense. It was taken in Şeytan Sofrası, near Ayvalık. (We currently have two other pictures from the same area already, by the way.)
  • 4 — a scene from Mount Yamanlar, which is crossed in the final descent down to Izmir from Manisa. How typical this is to what you see when travelling that route, I don't know. (The last time I went across that pass was in ... 2001? and it was nighttime.)

Vidimian (talk) 12:31, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! 4, 3, 2, 1 to me. Somewhat tough choice between 2 and 3, though, because 2 is a higher-quality photo. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:35, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
4, 3, 2 and 1 for me too. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 20:50, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I added the banner given there was no current banner. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:20, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I added a caption for it, so the viewers could know what they are looking at. Vidimian (talk) 10:25, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And I will probably recycle some of the others (or their source images) to relevant articles. Vidimian (talk) 10:55, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Towards FTT[edit]

This page has been nominated as a forthcoming Featured Travel Topic. IMO the page could be better, but that needn’t bear upon the nomination, so let’s discuss here rather than on the DOTM page.

For starters, the intro needs to sell this more as an itinerary, beyond just a list of places along a highway. I’ve re-drafted it accordingly; is this going in the right direction? Grahamsands (talk) 15:06, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I like it, for what that's worth. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:03, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Grahamsands; yeap, I think so. As I mentioned somewhere above, I was bothered by the rather short and dry lede and "understand", but couldn't come up with anything better. Some of the material you added can be considered for moving to the lede, where the incidental viewers are better fished for. Vidimian (talk) 17:14, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Tamam, so on we go. Given that intro curtain-raiser, we write to that theme. IMHO the itinerary structure gets muddled by trying to sort by speed and transport mode. You can go as fast or slow as you like, that's the whole point, with a car you can go any direction, and you might mix modes. I propose a simple sorting by direction, which is fairly close to the colour codes. As an example I'll re-work the European part of the yellow or west route. Grahamsands (talk) 18:00, 25 May 2022 (UTC) Yes Done so I'll pause there.[reply]
That looks good so far. Vidimian (talk) 20:21, 25 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
However the red eastern route does make sense as a single mode, doing it all by train. But we need to tell it like it is. Done. Grahamsands (talk) 20:51, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Central or blue route added the ports on the north coast, and a short description of all. Grahamsands (talk) 20:08, 27 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Right, I'm about done on this page. Most of the underlying city pages are in good condition, but a dozen down the south end need further work. Grahamsands (talk) 15:15, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Winter conditions[edit]

The suggestion to bring along food and warm clothes when the likeliness for adverse weather conditions is high was removed in this edit. The recommendation may seem like a friendly reminder from Captian Obvious, but Turkey is a Mediterranean country (and the area this article represents is one of the 'more Mediterranean' parts of the country), and O-5 is becoming (or has become) a major thoroughfare, so it may not be readily evident to those unfamiliar with the country how vicious Turkish winters (or the Turkish authorities' unpreparedness) could be. For example, that motorway was closed due to heavy snowfall just days after I added that paragraph (I remember something like for 13 hours, which doesn't sound like a little hiccup, but I couldn't verify that in a Google search). Granted, 2021–22 winter was exceptionally severe in Turkey, but in my aforementioned Google search I came across with very similar news reports for the same motorway published a year prior.

So I would like the paragraph restored, perhaps after getting adjusted to Grahamsands' great writing style. Another option could be adding something along those lines to the main Turkey article (since snow closures and stereotypes about Turkey aren't limited to this area), and hope the users of this article would get to see them there. Any thoughts? Vidimian (talk) 13:29, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I was about to add something back in "Prepare", relating to time of year to go. Certainly Turkey can have much heavier snow than people realise so a warning is warranted here, in Turkey-get around by road, and on upland pages with no obvious lowland workaround. Grahamsands (talk) 14:13, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Gulf of Edremit[edit]

See Edremit Discussion for a proposal to merge Akçay, Altınoluk, Güre and Burhaniye all into Edremit. Grahamsands (talk) 19:39, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]