Talk:Cultural attractions

Games and traditional pastimes

Swept in from the pub

I was just wondering, since we have articles on sports, how about creating articles on some traditional board games or other activities as well? Some I can think of are chess and bridge, and while these are not specific to one area, people can and do travel to participate in and watch chess and bridge tournaments. And for people interested in traditional games, I can think of Chinese chess (xiangqi), Go and mahjong, which are Chinese traditional games that people visiting China (or in the latter two cases, Japan as well) might be interested in learning and participating in. These three games also have professional tournaments you can watch even if you don't play. The dog2 (talk) 00:45, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

There are chess tournaments, and some people do travel to view them. As long as there's a travel angle, go ahead. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:36, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

An article on game could work, particularly on museums, but not article on each type of game, that is for Wikipedia. --Traveler100 (talk) 16:13, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

I'd agree that we shouldn't have articles for every single board game. For example, I don't think checkers should have its own article, like Monopoly or Scrabble. But chess probably is just about good enough. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:00, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

So a new user, Fazau11, created a Checkers page today. I have redirected to Chess because I'm not sure everyone agrees yet that we should have a "checkers" article. I don't, for one. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:34, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

What's obviously non-travel-related about a "Checkers" article? Web search results for "international checkers tournaments. Note in particular that there is a World Draughts Federation, draughts being the British name for checkers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:59, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

If the consensus is to start an article about checkers, those who want to start the article can go ahead and expand it. But a new article shouldn't be 2 sentences that state the obvious and/or don't make sense. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:02, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, that stub was useless and irrelevant. I don't think redirection to Chess is the best thing to do, though. Deletion is more appropriate, IMO. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:17, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I was only redirecting temporarily, really, not as a long-term plan. Do you think it needs a vfd, or do you think a speedy deletion tag is appropriate? Or should we turn it into a better article about checkers? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:38, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Articles about different board games can very well be valid travel topics, in my opinion. But like with other articles (and travel topics in particular) I think they shouldn't be created just to "have articles". The article creator should be able to write at the very least a paragraph or two about the topic (if needed with help of WP or another external source), and roughly outline the article's scope. ϒpsilon (talk) 20:10, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Ypsilon. I don't think a single non-travel-related line of text needs a vfd, just a deletion, as checkers isn't covered in an article about chess, so it makes little sense, IMO, to redirect the stub. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:38, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Sure. I've changed Checkers accordingly. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:45, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

I forgot that you can't (yet) delete an article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:48, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Maybe in a couple weeks, but yes, not yet. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:52, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Sure, we should not have articles for every single game in existence, but I think we can have articles for games, or "mind sports" as some people call them. when there's a relevance to travel. Besides chess, I'd say bridge is an article we could create if there's someone with expertise on it as like chess, there are professional bridge tournaments that you can travel to watch. Other games I think we could create articles for are those that are popular in specific geographic areas, as travellers from outside those areas might want to travel to learn and experience those games. So games like Go, xiangqi (Chinese chess) and shogi (Japanese chess) can have articles because in the areas they are popular, there are also professional tournaments you can go to watch, and in the case of xiangqi, if you go to China, you can see people playing it in many public parks, and if you are lucky, you might even be able to join one of the locals for a game. Mahjong is a bit in the grey area; it's a popular pastime in much of East Asia, but it's only recently that they have started a professional mahjong tournament circuit. The only catch is that the international rules they use in professional mahjong tournaments is very different from the rules you will encounter when playing with casual players, and every region in China has different rules, as does Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore. The dog2 (talk) 02:31, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Major board and card games (chess, go, poker, etc.) can have their own articles but as others have alluded to, travel topic articles have a greater onus to be useful for travellers when the article is first created. Gizza ^(roam) 01:05, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

I strongly agree with this point. It's not a travel topic if there's no travel-relevant content. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:21, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Diversifing Sport section

On 28th of August there was a first Diversity in Sport Day and that should remind us of non-industrialized sports, that focus on communities and not just profit and spectacle. As non-profit guide for travel I do not think we should favor only the most visible and resourced forms of sport but also that that attracts other communities. Hope my edits and new red links will inspire other contributors to fill in the gaps (at least with basic info), so we have more diverse and contemporary information from the contemporary realities more of us live in. --Zblace (talk) 05:36, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

But Zblace, don't insert red links into any article, and please remove those from this one. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:38, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek how will one see the content gaps then? --Zblace (talk) 05:40, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

On this talk page, or on Requested articles. But if you really want articles to exist and there's enough potential travel-related content for them to merit existence as separate pages, it's much better for you to start them yourself and not expect someone else to do so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:41, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek I can certainly start some of them but not many. I do not think red links are such a huge problem for a Wikimedia project (at least not on other wikis)...or there is explicit agreement and decision made here not to have them as a rule? --Zblace (talk) 15:47, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

We'd much rather have as few such redlinks as possible, as a long-established daily practice in Wikivoyage. Ibaman (talk) 15:57, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

And the reason for that is that red links are just frustrating for readers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:12, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Red links are okayish unless in excess, but not in index-type articles such as this one. I'm not sure we've ever put it into words in a policy page. Vidimian (talk) 19:31, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

There's an obvious consensus for deleting the red links. Would you like to do the honors, Zblace, or does someone else have to do that work? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:46, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Good Morning @Ikan Kekek! The 'work' is one click away, so I would love if that is not to focus, but pointing me to where it is obviously written as a regulation or an instruction? Please notice I am new in Wikivoyage and trying to learn as I incubate an instance in my language. Thank you very much for your kind support and assistance so far! --Zblace (talk) 05:41, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

There doesn't need to be a written rule if there's a consensus on an article's talk page. See Wikivoyage:Consensus. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:30, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Edited accordingly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:32, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1191128/brief-overview-polish-board-gaming-scence-aimed-en

Board games

Swept in from the pub

It recently came to my attention Wikivoyage (under Travel topics > Cultural attractions ) has thematic guides for Chess, Go, Xiangqi (Chinese chess) and Shogi (Japanese chess). And apparently, Monopoly, which IMHO is a bit of an Easter Egg but oh well, some my find it amusing :) Anyway, as a board game fan I now have a plan to create an entry for board games. A while back (~10 years...) I have in fact written guides on a board game portal for board gaming in Poland which I presume I can copy here with some minor c/e since I am the author and can licence it under CC-BY-SA as I wish; I can probably write something for Korea. But I doubt I can find the time/motivation to do it for most other regions (although there are useful guides on BGG that can be mined for information). Anyway, for when I start, I guess I'll just use Wikivoyage:Quick travel topic article template modelled after those of other games I listed? Is there anyone who's interested in this and wants to be pinged when I create it so they can help expand this? One MoS issue that I have, comparing my guide from BGG to what we have on Chess and like is how do we handle mentioning/listing of social media groups / websites / online stores? Thing is, in board game area, physical stores/cafes come and go, but social media groups and online stores have a more enduring presence in my experience. They are useful for hobbyists - a lot of common questions I see from folks, and that includes tourists or people moving to an area for a few months/years (students, temp jobs) are "how can I connect with gamers in my area" and "how can I buy games cheaply". And that cannot be answered well without linking to local Facebook/Meetup groups and online stores. Any thoughts on how to handle this within WV guidelines for external links and such? I.e. can we link to such non-physical entities from our travel topic guides? Piotrus (talk) 07:42, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

It would indeed be a good travel topic, where there isn't a "strict MoS". I wouldn't know how one should be written, though. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 08:00, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

To answer your question about non-physical entities: we do have to be careful about featuring links to organizations that are not about travel, so it really depends on the context. What do you mean by an "Easter Egg"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:43, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

I mean that the usefulness of that particular page is likely pretty low. Monopoly fandom is rather small, compared to the proper board game fandom (and proper board gamers don't really play Monopoly, which is just a bad, bad game). So what I mean is that any serious board gamers looking at our coverage will be like - Chess, ok, Go, Shogi, good, good... Monopoly - seriously? :) Shrug. Somebody had fun making that page and it has some uber mild utility and is within the scope, I guess, it is just such a minor trivial topic to cover when so many others are missing. Oh well, wikis :) Piotrus (talk) 02:49, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, Monopoly is a very luck-based game, FWIW. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 03:17, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

But more to the point for a travel wiki, Monopoly is a very place-based game, so it really lends itself to travel. Plus, loads of people played it as children. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:17, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

I know – it's just a game disliked by board game clubs, hence my earlier reply. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 05:38, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

@Piotrus: Games like chess, xiangqi, shogi and Go have professional tournaments that you can travel to watch, so that gives them travel relevance. And some people might also want to travel to buy equipment for these games, or other memorabilia. Monopoly may not have professional tournaments, but still, people might want to visit the locations featured, so that lends itself to having travel relevance. If you want to create a general article on board games, go for it so long as there's a travel-related spin. You could for instance describe some obscure board game that is only popular in a specific part of the world, and tell people where they can go to try it.

And as a side point, since you're holding the class, you could consider asking your Chinese students to help improve the xiangqi article by adding listings, such as places that might be famous for making xiangqi pieces, museums dedicated to the game, or even top level tournaments that tourists might be interested to watch. And if there is enough travel content, your Korean students could certainly create an article on janggi (Korean chess) too, though I'm not sure if there is a professional janggi circuit in Korea, as they have a professional xiangqi circuit in China and a professional shogi circuit in Japan. The dog2 (talk) 19:10, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

@The dog2 I will mention this to my students. For some board games, btw, there are professional tournaments. Setting aside big industry stuff like Magic the Gathering, which certainly merits its own dedicated travel guides (there are MtG-only shops/play areas in many places around the world), there are world tournaments even for games like Carcassonne (game) (google if curious, it is alreadyy briefly mentioned in our entry on Carcassonne the town...). Or Scrabble, I am sure. In theory, several if not dozens of board games could use their dedicated travel guides. One step at a time, I guess... Piotrus (talk) 01:04, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't know enough about board games to envision a topic article, but just so it's not forgotten about, we do have a Board Game section at Fiction_tourism#Board_games that has received less attention than the other categories on that page. Gregsmi11 (talk) 01:48, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Maybe a Mind sports article would work, although not all board games are mind sports, and not all mind sports are board games. Contract bridge for instance is a card game that has a professional circuit and international tournaments. And as a side note, the International Mind Sport Association has admitted eSports as a member, so perhaps those count too. The dog2 (talk) 16:14, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

There are also famous board game(-including?) annual fairs in Essen and Nürnberg (both in Germany). Board games do have something to do with travel (as well as computer games do, e.g. Gamescom is held in Köln. I don't understand the debate about MoS or external links above though.

Why not go for Gaming tourism or Board game tourism? E-Sports is another tourism area or will soon become one... PragmaFisch (talk) 13:57, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

A subsection for this could be Jigsaw puzzle tourism(?), for example the German town of Ravensburg - relatively near from where I live, but maybe little-known on other continents - contains the most well known jigsaw puzzle producer: Ravensburger (lit.: (company) from Ravensburg) PragmaFisch (talk) 14:07, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

My daughter & some travel companions got a charge out of playing the board game Carcassonne outside the city of Carcassonne. None of the locals they talked to had heard of the game. Pashley (talk) 14:22, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

I'd say it is fairly obvious that if someone has the inclination & knowledge to create a travel topic on board games, they should plunge forward. It would clearly be a legitimate travel topic, of considerable interest to some travellers. Pashley (talk) 14:22, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

@SHB2000 @Pashley @Gregsmi11 @The dog2 @PragmaFisch Started, please check it out. I adapted this from a suprisingly usable ChatGPT output, of course modifying it already. I'd like to add links to key online communities which people can use to find board game fans around the world (BGG, Meetup.com) and some links listings to famous board game stores / cafes (or the ones I am familiar with...). Would that be ok? Piotrus (talk) 04:01, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Town squares

Swept in from the pub

Do people think this would be a viable travel topic? The presence of a main square is certainly a very characteristic feature of European cities, regardless of whether you're in London, Madrid, Moscow, Reykjavik, Prague or wherever. The dog2 (talk) 23:02, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

It seems unmanageable. Almost every village in New England has a village green. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:54, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Of course we can't possibly list every town square in the world. But I was thinking of more iconic ones like Trafalgar Square in London, Red Square in Moscow, Plaza Mayor in Mandarin, Alexanderplatz in Berlin, Place de la Concord in Paris, Piazza Navona in Rome and so on. The dog2 (talk) 00:37, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

There are a bunch of notable places in Paris alone, and the Place de la Concorde, which last time I was in Paris was very busy with car traffic, is not the first I'd think of, but it does belong on a list with a bunch of other places in Paris. In my opinion, such an article would become listy very quickly. If you're inspired to write about these places (ah, that's a pun), though, I'd suggest starting in your userspace and linking the draft here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:54, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

It seems it should be broken up into Town squares in Europe based on the examples given by The dog2. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 06:07, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Even that risks going on and on and on, but I guess the top squares in each place might work - say, if we limit it to no more than 10 or so per city at most. Which might be hard sometimes. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:23, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

For now I'm just putting forward this idea for brainstorming to see if such an article would be viable. But European cities are indeed famous for having beautiful main squares that are popular meeting spots, with lots of historical buildings surrounding the square. I haven't been to France, Germany or Italy yet unfortunately, but the ones I remember are like Trafalgar Square in London, Rossio and Praça do Comércio in Lisbon, Plaza Mayor and Puerta del Sol in Madrid, Plaça de Catalunya in Barcelona, Austurvöllur in Reykjavik and so on. Apparently, having a large central square where all the action converges on is a feature of most European cities. The Europeans of course exported this aspect of city planning to some of their colonies, but in general you don't really get these large historic main squares in American, Australian or Canadian cities. The dog2 (talk) 15:52, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

How much is there to say in general about town squares? I think it is only worth starting this if the introductory text is a couple of pages long. What are the features that a visitor might expect to find in a town square? Is the main square of a city often different from other squares? Any precautions to take in a square, or tips for making a visit better (visit at 7am to get a good photo without the crowds etc). Any list of squares should be limited to 9 per country, with no more than 3 in one city. AlasdairW (talk) 18:28, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Ikan; it looks unmanageable.

Nearly every town in the Philippines has a square that goes back to Spanish colonial times with a market, a church & often some municipal government buildings. I think other towns that were part of the Spanish or Portuguese empires mostly have something similar.

Many cities that were part of the Persian or Moghul empires have a central maidan. The one in Isfahan is sensational.

and so on

My guess would be that more towns have some sort of central square than not. Pashley (talk) 21:42, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

I think you're right, at least in the case of towns whose central cores predate the automobile and are sufficiently intact, and although I don't think there's any rule about this in some countries like Malaysia (which does, however, have Dataran Merdeka in Kuala Lumpur). Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:55, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Singapore has the Padang, but like Dataran Merdeka in Kuala Lumpur, it was originally grown as a cricket field by the British. Sir Stamford Raffles designated Commercial Square as the main public square for trading goods when he planned the town, and that is today Raffles Place. If you had gone there in the early 1960s, it would have been a beautiful town square surrounded by colonial buildings, but none of those colonial buildings survive today, and it's now surrounded on all sides by modern skyscrapers. The dog2 (talk) 03:21, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Many of these squares have a city hall, state legislature or other government building by them. The Local governments article covers some of these. /Yvwv (talk) 11:39, 23 October 2023 (UTC)