Talk:Hesse

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Regions[edit]

The present regions mentioned in the article do not appear to be useable for a subdivision of the state. I suggest we instead use this division in Northern Hesse, Central Hesse and Southern Hesse. Comments?, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 18:10, 11 August 2010 (EDT)

Agreed. Although they should be called North Hesse, Middle Hesse and South Hesse.--(WT-en) globe-trotter 15:40, 12 August 2011 (EDT)

>> ZAP <<

Yeah, aren't we supposed to make reasonable regions as a part of our quest of upping the ranking of Germany? Can subregions remain sad outlines (or worse) and only the cities need to be usable for the upper level to advance to a new status?

The current subdivision is absolutely laughable and meaningless. Hesse is naturally south-heavy and thus we could even do with one "northern Hesse" region probably, but e.g. Rheingau should be a region of Hesse proper IMHO.

Can we address that please? PrinceGloria (talk) 22:27, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

I have looked at this before be failed to see an obvious new split. The obvious geographical and economical splits cross state boundaries which is something we decided against a year or so ago. The Rhein-Main area would be a clear one for Wiesbaden, Frankfurt and Offenbach but does really also include Mainz and Aschaffenburg (wow, that really does not have an entry!). Other geographical splits are also cross state, such as Lahn and Taunus which also cover RLP. Agree with your comment about southern heavy region split. Could we make a Odenwald and include Darmstadt in that? --Traveler100 (talk) 06:59, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Suggestion: --Traveler100 (talk) 07:08, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

  • Create Rhine-Main area under Hesse which includes Frankfurt, Wiesbaden, Offenbach, Rüsselsheim etc (and possibly Darmstadt). Mention that the infrastructure (i.e. transport system) also includes Mainz but leave that under Rhenish Hesse.
  • Rheingau move under Hesse
  • Odenwald - extend the definitiion a little so it includes the Bergstraße towns and maybe Darmstadt.
  • Middle Hesse
  • North Hesse (maybe merge in Middle Hesse?
Middle and North together IMHO unless suddenly more destination guides crop up. I was wondering if Odenwald should ot be called Bergstrasse, it is a much more known name IMHO. On the fence regarding lumping all of the large cities into Rhein-Mein or leaving Darmstadt with Odenwald/Bergstrasse and Wiesbaden with Rheingau. Aren't any Kreise north of Frankfurt really suburbs of it, or does Frankfurt city limits cover all of immediate suburbs? PrinceGloria (talk) 07:13, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
How about redefining South Hesse as Darmstadt and everything south, i.e. Odenwald and Bergstraße. I would move Wiesbaden from Rheingau to Rhine-Main. Towns north of Frankfurt (Taunus), need to look at each individually. Agree merge Middle (and East) into North until there are more article in the area. --Traveler100 (talk) 08:08, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
I would rather we gave meaningful names to regions rather than "North", "South" etc. - can we decide on something for the South? PrinceGloria (talk) 08:27, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
I would call it Odenwald which would include the Bergstraße. For North Hesse, as this is the mountainous area how about High Hesse or as there are a number of Kur towns and is an historic area of Prussia may be Kurhessen.--Traveler100 (talk) 08:38, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Kurhessen is a name from the Nazi era, so I'd refrain from using it. If no better option is found, I am OK with North Hesse for the time being. Odenwald is also OK with me. I guess that's it and it is clear which Kreis goes where, except for Gross-Gerau. On the one hand, we could cut it in half using Bundesautobahn 60 (just under Ruesselsheim) and give GG proper to Darmstadt (Odenwald), to which it is geographically close. OTOH, there are more frequent trains taking not much more time to Frankfurt than to Darmstadt, so maybe we should consider GG a part of the Rhein-Mein agglomeration. PrinceGloria (talk) 09:10, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
OK so I think I have completed the re-org, but would be good if someone checks it all. Is a better distribution of article. --Traveler100 (talk) 13:07, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Fab, Vielen Dank! That said, what happened to Odenwald, I thought it was a viable name for the south? PrinceGloria (talk) 18:39, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
as we have not come up with a better name for North Hesse, yet, then I though may as well keep South Hesse. Could move it though, not to much effort. --Traveler100 (talk) 18:49, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Region discussion needs reopening[edit]

Following towns have been removed from North Hesse

  • Alsfeld - historic town centre with a nubmer of timber-framed buildings
  • Bad Orb
  • Fulda - much more than just tyres, the city is full of sights to behold and hides its size very well behind a small-town facade
  • Gelnhausen - attracting visitors during the annual Schellenmarkt festival
  • Giessen - a university town famous for an elephant loo. Seriously.
  • Herborn - half-timbered old town and a millennium-old cathedral
  • Limburg an der Lahn - even more half-timbered houses
  • Marburg - a picturesque historic university town with a castle perched atop a hill
  • Wetzlar - if you still want more half-timbered houses, you will find them there

Can understand the reasoning as they are not "very north", but what do we do now to fix the orphaned locations? Create a number sub-region if so what should it be called or rename North Hesse to something else so we can make it a region with more than 4 locations? --Traveler100 (talk) 20:18, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

I think North Hesse can be kept as is, but we need to make the region divisions and boundaries more clear both to the benefit of our readers and editors. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:26, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
I tend to agree with keeping as is. I prefer to work with the method of adding city locations first, then when a region gets too large a list then reorganise. --Traveler100 (talk) 08:53, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Structure as of Jan. 2016[edit]

With district proposed split of North/East/Middle

Districts of Hesse[edit]

Not saying should organise by administrative districts (geographical regions are more relevant to visitors) but for reference:-

Map of Hesse with districts (with numbers).svg
  1. Kreis Bergstraße (Heppenheim) (HP)
  2. Landkreis Darmstadt-Dieburg (Darmstadt) (DA, DI)
  3. Groß-Gerau (district) (Groß-Gerau) (GG)
  4. Hochtaunuskreis (Bad Homburg) (HG, USI)
  5. Main-Kinzig-Kreis (Gelnhausen) (MKK, GN, HU, SLÜ)
  6. Main-Taunus-Kreis (Hofheim am Taunus) (MTK)
  7. Odenwaldkreis (Erbach) (ERB)
  8. Offenbach (district)|Offenbach]] (Dietzenbach) (OF)
  9. Rheingau-Taunus-Kreis (Bad Schwalbach) (RÜD,SWA)
  10. Wetteraukreis (Friedberg) (FB, BÜD)
  11. Gießen (district) (Gießen) (GI)
  12. Lahn-Dill-Kreis (Wetzlar) (LDK)
  13. Limburg-Weilburg (Limburg) (LM, WEL)
  14. Marburg-Biedenkopf (Marburg) (MR, BID)
  15. Vogelsbergkreis (Lauterbach) (VB)
  16. Fulda (district) (Fulda) (FD)
  17. Landkreis Hersfeld-Rotenburg (Bad Hersfeld) (HEF, ROF)
  18. Landkreis Kassel (Kassel) (KS, HOG,WOH)
  19. Schwalm-Eder-Kreis (Homberg (Efze)) (HR)
  20. Werra-Meißner-Kreis (Eschwege) (ESW, WIZ)
  21. Waldeck-Frankenberg (Korbach) (KB, FKB, WA)

Independent cities:

  1. Darmstadt (DA)
  2. Frankfurt am Main (F)
  3. Kassel (KS)
  4. Offenbach am Main (OF)
  5. Wiesbaden (WI)

Note I do not want to give the impression we should create regions for each district Hesse, but they provide some reference for discussions. I do not Germany to go the way some States of the USA have gone on this site with a region for each county and a list of twenty odd tiny places that are either red links or ,worse, pages with no content. --Traveler100 (talk) 08:51, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Alternative propose[edit]

Proposal from User:Feuermond16 to create a East Hesse and a West Hesse along the lines of this map. --Traveler100 (talk) 08:59, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Sorry for writing in German. Zugegeben, die Einteilung von Hessen nach geographischen, touristischen oder administrativen Regionen ist nicht einfach. Genaue Grenzen gibt es oft nicht, trotzdem kann man grobe Regionen einteilen. Mit der oben stehenden Einteilung habe ich das Problem, dass die touristische oder administrative Bezeichnung Nordhessen (North Hesse) dazu benutzt wurde, um eine geographische Region zu bezeichnen, die den Norden von Hessen abgrenzen soll. Das kann man so nicht machen. Deshalb mein Vorschlag, nach der von mir bereits verlinkten Wetterkarte des Hessischen Rundfunks zu gehen.
Demnach würde Nordhessen (North Hesse) aus dem Landkreis Kassel (18), dem Schwalm-Eder-Kreis (19), dem Werra-Meißner-Kreis (20), dem Landkreis Waldeck-Frankenberg (21) und der Stadt Kassel (KS) bestehen. Zu Osthessen (East Hesse) würden der Vogelsbergkreis (15), der Landkreis Fulda (16) und der Landkreis Hersfeld-Rotenburg (17) gehören, zu Mittelhessen (Middle Hesse) der Landkreis Gießen (11), der Lahn-Dill-Kreis (12), der Landkreis Limburg-Weilburg (13) und der Landkreis Marburg-Biedenkopf (14). Streitpunkt wäre hier der Vogelsbergkreis, der theoretisch sowohl Mittel-, als auch Osthessen zugeordnet werden könnte. Bei Mittelhessen würde Osthessen dann nur noch auch der Rhön (länderübergreifende Region) und Waldhessen bestehen, wäre aber immer noch groß genug und auch sinnvoll weiterhin abzugrenzen (spezielle Kultur sowie katholische Religion). Dem Rheingau würde ich dagegen dem Rhein-Main-Gebiet zuschlagen (Frankfurt Rhine-Main), da zu klein für eine eigene Region. Südhessen wäre dann nördlich abgegrenzt inklusive Groß-Gerau (3), Darmstadt (DA) und den Landkreis Darmstadt-Dieburg (2).
Dies wären also fünf Regionen. Denke nicht, dass dies nicht zu viele Unterteilungen wären (vorher waren es vier).
MfG -- Feuermond16 (talk) 11:23, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
I think this would create regions with too few articles at the moment. If a number of more Hesse towns were added (with real content) I think this split could work, but currently middle Hesse would have little below it. Also do no think South Hesse should be split by districts, Rüsselsheim is more Rhein-Main character than the towns of Bergsttraße and Odenwald. Would also keep Rheingau separate from Rhein-Main, this is a tourist and wine area with enough points of interest to be stand-alone and is distinctive from the industry and commerce area around Frankfurt. --Traveler100 (talk) 13:33, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
I think we all need to avoid running into the error of subdivisions that are too small and contain towns of little note or importance to visitors from further afield. I know myself and Traveler100 are not always on the same page with regards to the treatment of rural areas, but we have to keep in mind who we are writing for. I have seen articles on small towns in Germany whose name I myself have barely heard where things are listed as "see" Listings that I would find utterly unremarkable - if it's more than one church in a village of 5000 one of them might not be worth the hype. Now don't get me wrong, in many cases listing these things is still better than not doing it, but how many readers would be interested in the currently redlinking destinations in Hesse and still know too little German to read the articles in German? Personally I think we could also have handled the places around Frankfurt airport that most people will only ever visit because business takes them there or their airport hotel is technically there a bit better. As for the proposal at hand, Hesse seems to mostly consist of the dense and well connected South centered on Frankfurt and a much less densely populated and a bit worse connected North. If people really cared for all the finer details, they can always read de-WV. And as for slicing and dicing Germany - there really is no "right" or "wrong" way to do it objectively. Even the current Bundesländer separate similar regions (East and North Frisian, Swabia) and put things into one Bundesland that are rather dissimilar (Baden Württemberg, Bavaria and Franconia, the South and North of Niedersachsen). Whether a traveler who does not speak German (otherwise they would read de-WV) really cares about the Catholic - Protestant divide within Hesse , I don't know. I know I myself have an urban bias as by and large cities are more interesting places. The problem is : with very rare exceptions, so does en-WV. There is one region of New Mexico that is currently nominated for being featured that is an exception to this rule. Most likely because the author(s) know the area rather well. Anyway to make one last point, we have to strike a balance between locals who think a difference between Eltersdorf and Büchenbach matters and readers from all over the world who want to get concise, exact information on where to stay, what to do and which places to skip with a time budget that is likely to be limited. We do have similar problems for the US where way too many counties have their own articles. Which would be bad enough, but they are often not fleshed out in the least and contain redlinks or sub-articles that are little more than a skeleton. Now your proposed subdivision of Hesse may have merit, but based on the number and state of the places that leaves in the new North Hesse, I am inclined to doubt its usefulness for non - German readers. Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:55, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
For me it is okay when you can life with wrong named regions, I do not write so much in the "English Wikivoyage" (also in the future). But then write in the article explicity that it is about the North of Hesse, and not about the region North Hesse! -- Feuermond16 (talk) 19:44, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
I don't think that there is really an equivalent to the distinction between "Nordhessen" and "nördliches Hessen" which seems to be what you are saying, if I don't get you wrong. However, I have no problem to rename the article Northern Hesse North of Hesse or any other term consensus determines. And I really don't think the names are "wrong" in the sense that there really isn't an established English name for the non-historic (meaning those that aren't Hesse-Kassel, Hesse-Darmstadt and the likes) subdivisons of Hesse. As for your contributions on en-WV, that is of course entirely up to you, but feel free to drop a not on my talk page (or anywhere else where I or someone else can see it) if we are getting something wrong about Germany or any other topic you know more about than the average en-WV user. Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:44, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Issues that still need fixing[edit]

So I think, we just list the things that are still missing here and can still be improved upon. According to what was mentioned by other users and my own observations it would be

  • The regions, which are partly empty and might need an overhaul
  • The lack of a lead
  • The Understand section, which might need trimming down / stylistic improvements or even expansion
  • The strange "other destinations" list
  • The get around section

Best wishes Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:08, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

With regard to regions:
  • Lead - just a sentence (still)
  • Understand - could do
  • Destinations - OK I think
  • Map - none (we could use a dynamic map with shading mask for now I'd say)
  • Get in - quite OK
  • Get around - some more explanation on how public transportation works could be handy
  • See - listings should go to particular destinations or become "otehr destinations", this needs to be descriptive as to where to look for what kind of attractions rather than a laundry list. STILL NOT ADDRESSED
  • Itineraries - do we have any? If not, remove heading.
  • Do - needs descriptions of local events (music, performance, traditional, sports)
  • Eat - needs expansion
  • Drink - nada
  • Go next - could do
  • Rhine-Main - quite stubby but not that bad, expansion could be made after city articles are expanded to summarize their contents and point towards them for particular types of attractions
  • Map - I'd add one based on split into Kreise and Staedte, but I guess it needs editing to highlight the precise part we are covering and clearly show neighbouring ones as not covered by this region
  • See - needs to be descriptive
  • Get in - I'd move the train distance list to Frankfurt
  • Go next - expansion needed
  • Lead - since just a sentence
  • Destinations - I would mremove redlinks and add one-liners
  • Map - none (we could use a dynamic map with shading mask for now I'd say)
  • Other destinations - remove? the region is an "Other destination" in itself
  • Understand - still nothing
  • Talk - seems unnecessary
  • Get in - reformulate as description, including info on which airports and other main hubs outside of the regions are handy, and road connections
  • Get around - needs description of local public transport arrangements and possibility to drive and bike around rather than mention of one bus line
  • Hiking trail - to itineraries
  • See - listings should go to destinations, this needs to be descriptive as to where to look for what kind of attractions rather than a laundry list
  • Do - needs same approach as See + descriptions of local events (music, performance, traditional, sports)
  • Eat - needs expansion
  • Drink - nada
  • Stay safe - do we need that?
  • Go next - attractive one-liners needed
  • Lead - just a sentence
  • Destinations - needs one-liners, I would merge Cities and Villages, remove redlinks and we'll have exactly 9
  • Map - none (we could use a dynamic map with shading mask for now I'd say)
  • Other destinations - I would expand on the Taunus to describe what it is and why it's worth exploring it
  • Understand - nada
  • Talk - seems unnecessary
  • Get in - nada
  • Get around - nada
  • See - listing should go to Darmstadt, this needs to be descriptive as to where to look for what kind of attractions rather than a laundry list.
  • Itineraries - a description of the Bergstrasse would be in order
  • Do - nada, needs same approach as See + descriptions of local events (music, performance, traditional, sports)
  • Eat - needs expansion
  • Drink - nada
  • Stay safe - do we need that?
  • Go next - nada
Particular destinations also need help - I guess we can discuss those in every region's page as there are too many to discuss them all here.
Do we make next week the Hesse week? PrinceGloria (talk) 08:02, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
While I agree that the subregions of Hesse can be much improved upon, I wonder whether we should not start with a polishing up of Hesse, as the vast majority of users will land there first (or at a city article) and only branch out to subregions later if at all. Hobbitschuster (talk) 10:54, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
Whichever way you prefer. I am just not THAT familiar with Hesse, so I guessed that doing regions and destinations will give me a broader overview to be able to more informedly contribute to what essentially is a summary of Hesse divided into our categories. PrinceGloria (talk) 13:07, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
As for the stay safe sections: Germany in general is as safe as safe gets. And as it is neither close to major mountains nor any coast, natural hazards are negligible at best. According to some statistics, Frankfurt am Main is one of the cities with the highest crime rate per capita in Germany, but this is mostly due to three factors: 1.) it has a high proportion of people working but not living there (~500 000 inhabitants, ~ 200 000 workers moving in from the suburbs every day) 2.) It is a major transportation hub with stuff like drugs passing through and a higher chance of being detected there than elsewhere 3.) the Bahnhofsviertel has a shoddy reputation (which it is slowly losing) due to being a center for prostitution and intravenous drug use. That being said, even Frankfurt is generally safe, at least compared to similar cities in the US and German police have a very no-nonsense approach towards guns or even knives. As is once half-jokingly shown in "Sherlock" the fastest way to call the police is to fire a gun. This is especially true for Frankfurt am Main, and in that city even more so for the supposedly "dangerous" Bahnhofsviertel. So to make it short: Other than a "It's safe unless you are particularly unlucky or an utter moron" I don't think we need a "stay safe" section in the subregions... Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:27, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

So; PrinceGloria, Traveler100, a week has passed, how far are we done and what remains to be done? Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:02, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Not far, seems like there's not much love for Hesse around :( - this is what I feared rushing will lead to. I would still suggest we put the little effort needed to shape up those regions since they'll probably wait quite a bit until somebody takes to it again. PrinceGloria (talk) 16:06, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

This article needs a regionmap![edit]

So according to this edit at least one person seems to either not know the limits of North Hesse or there is some sort of disagreement on this issue. This could be remedied by a clear and concise region map that eliminates any potential for overlap. Do we have an editor who could make a suitable map? Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:46, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

A map cannot be done if someone has decided to start reorganising the regions. We did push the definition of North Hesse a little to have reasonable number of articles in each area. Maybe we need a middle hesse? --Traveler100 (talk) 20:03, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
I don't think subdividing Hesse even further is the way to go (apparently, de-WV has a bit of a geographical focus in the area among its userbase). Personally I think North Hesse is as good a term as any to name the rather sparsely populated Northern parts of Hesse. and I don't see much sense in a cutoff point that is too northward... Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:23, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
Oh no we don't need a Middle Hesse. The current division serves us well. The North of Hesse is sparsely populated and hence seems big, but in reality sees the least tourist traffic. PrinceGloria (talk) 22:39, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
So do we undo the edits to remove the orphaned page problem or wait for response from user who started the reorganisation of the region? --Traveler100 (talk) 22:45, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
Remind me which solution (if any) we found for this issue... Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:28, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Wikidata items for dynamic map[edit]

Below is the map with all Wikidata items for the districts. This should simplify the work in case we want to change the district set-up in the future. The tool Wikidata Extractor has been used to create the mapshapes.--Renek78 (talk) 17:56, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Map of Hesse