Talk:Spain

From Wikivoyage
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Archived discussions

Formatting and language conventions

For articles about Spain, please use the 24-hour clock to show times, e.g. 09:00-12:00 and 18:00-00:00.

Please show prices in this format: €100, and not not EUR 100, 100 euro or 100€.

Please use British spelling.

Archived old discussions[edit]

There appear to be no recent discussions on this page. All discussions prior to 2013 are in the Talk:Spain/Archive 2003-2012 page Andrewssi2 (talk) 14:22, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Lack of History[edit]

Compared to most other country articles, Spain has almost no history! This seems a strange oversight considering there is a lot of source material, from the Moors to the conquistadors in the Americas to the civil war and the Franco period. Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:45, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I added some though there are probably some errors in what I added. The Franco era is still mostly glossed over, though. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:09, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
That's cool. The Franco era was relatively recent, so too much opinion one way or the other will probably offend someone. I think the 'high level' fact are correct (Human rights abuses, oppression of regional identities, economic boom, etc) and should likely be accepted by both sides Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:36, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
Wait, we're really going to worry about potentially offending pro-Fascists? I haven't had a look at what's been added, so far. I don't think that disproportionate space should be given to the Fascist period, but not because it might offend someone. The Spanish Civil War and its aftermath should be at least briefly mentioned, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:34, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
So far we talk at length about the Spanish civil war (there just is something intriguing to it imho) but hardly mention the almost forty years of Franco's rule after that. And while I agree that we don't have to conform to fascist sensibilities, a Spanish friend of mine once tried to explain it to me like that: Franco and Hitler were both bad. But while Hitler is utterly indefensible, Franco has still some minor positive aspects to him. While I heartily disagree (he killed the Second Spanish Republic, after all) I get the point. Maybe we should try paint him not as a diabolic mastermind, but rather as the average guy who just happened to become dictator and than stayed in power more due to lack of alternatives than anything else. (heck some of the ultra-right wing Carlists even allied with the anarchists at one point to get rid of him) Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:40, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
As long as we just present facts and don't give them clearly disproportionate weight, we are within the Wikivoyage:Be fair guidelines. I'll have a look later or tomorrow, but I'm hardly the world's greatest expert on Spanish history. I'm not sure that the events in the decades after Franco won the civil war, took absolute power and killed a bunch of people are that relevant to travellers, though, for the most part. Any places to see Fascist architecture or memorials to the victims (or perpetrators) of Fascism might be of some note, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:49, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it isn't a case of throwing a sop to 'pro-fascists'. Franco's regime could be compared in some ways to w:Augusto_Pinochet in Chile, who certainly oversaw terrible human rights abuses but also economic development.
It isn't really in the remit of WV to drill into and judge the specific rights and wrongs. Nazi Germany does not have a mixed legacy in terms of good and bad. Franco's Spain does have this mixed legacy.
I think the text does clearly explain the bad aspects of the regime without drilling down much. Andrewssi2 (talk) 00:59, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Without arguing about Franco or Pinochet: Yes, I think it does. I edited the section — mostly copy editing with one or two few facts corrected. It seems quite good to me, though of course it remains a work in progress for anyone who can improve it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:51, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Imho Spain was bound to grow economically at some point in the 20th century. Not even it becoming communist (unless it would've turned into North Korea) could have kept that from happening. I think Franco being a dictator actually kind of hurt the development of tourism to an extent. The most positive thing (that doesn't include sentences like "well... he killed less people than dictator x...") I can find to say about Franco is that he died and left Spain in the not entirely incapable hands of King Juan Carlos, who - for once - made the right choice. What I was referring to with the tidbit about early Homo fossils (I deliberately left out which kind of, as there is still debate about that) was this article on WP, though I somehow forgot to include "in Europe". Good work on the copy editing, though. Also: do you know of any other famous people who were in Spain somewhere between 1936 and 1939 (the line between war-correspondent and interbrigadista is a very blurry one indeed). Best wishes Hobbitschuster (talk) 08:11, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Disagree to some extent. Economic growth can happen without government interference (e.g. Hong Kong), but the absence of interference is in itself a decision that has to be made by the government (e.g. one North Korea can't make). Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:25, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
"He wasn't as bad as the North Korean Kim dynasty." OK, fine, but so what? I think the Stalinists already lost decades ago, so there's no sense in spending time praising (even faintly praising) some of the Fascists or similar dictators for not being that bad by comparison to the dictator who was responsible for more excess deaths than any other in human history, with the possibly arguable exception of Hitler, or his most rabid followers (the Kims, Pol Pot, Mao). So nothing personal here, but shall we move on? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:47, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Any other historical eras of interest? I think we deal too little with Muslim Spain and its architectural remains (heck it influenced architecture and place names as far away as Italy and Nicaragua to an extent). And I think we can all agree on one thing: Franco bad. People who like Franco: bad. Other dictators: some worse, some not. Best wishes Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:58, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Spain is probably the the second most influenced European country by Muslim culture ( after Malta ). Should definitely have more there. Andrewssi2 (talk) 05:27, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

(starting at the left again) I agree. What we now have on that era is a start but imho can still be elaborated on... Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:50, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Repetition between "get in" and "get around"[edit]

Some of the information currently in "get in" should be in "get around". Other parts are mentioned twice or contradictory Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:17, 10 February 2016 (UTC) Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:17, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Seriously the "get in" section needs an overhaul[edit]

I just read a bit of the get in section again and quite frankly, it's a disaster. Sure, the Schengen template is where it should be and there are technically all the subheadings, but the by plane section is a strange discussion of airport architecture wrapped up by bitching about Iberia's ticket policy. The by bus section does not mention a single international line. The by train section has a lot of overlap with the get around section as well. The by boat section seems to be somewhat decent in comparison, but still... Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:39, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Go ahead and make the changes you think necessary. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:13, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
I did a bit on the "by plane" section, but quite frankly there are some things that would need adding that I don't really know about. I have been to Madrid-Barajas and actually spent a few hours in the city, but I have not used any other form of transport besides the Madrid Metro (which I recall as perfectly unremarkable, i.e. it worked without a hitch) Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:15, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Spain "exotic"?[edit]

In light of recent edits, I think it is fair to ask how we want to formulate this. Personally I dislike the word "exotic", especially for a travel guide that tries to avoid being written with any regional bias. After all, Sauerkraut and Weißbier would probably be considered exotic in Nicaragua, just like Germans would consider Gallo Pinto and this corn beverage Nicaraguans call "chicha" to be exotic... Anybody got an idea how to better put that sentence or the whole paragraph while we're at it? Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:44, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

I saw that edit by the anonymous contributor and agreed with replacing the word 'exotic' for the reasons that you basically state. Andrewssi2 (talk) 19:57, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
We're not claiming that Spain is objectively "exotic", just that it is considered exotic within Europe. If anything, the phrasing points out the regional bias, but doesn't actually confirm whether it's true or not. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:41, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
To be quite honest, I don't like either wording. But I don't really know what we should write instead... Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:56, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
I would simply revert the edit. Spain is not considered exotic because of its friendly inhabitants, relaxed lifestyle, cuisine or vibrant nightlife. It's considered "exotic" because of its Arab heritage, which makes it quasi-"Oriental" to other Europeans. But I see no need to use the word at all, as it is not descriptive of anything. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:37, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
I disagree with that estimation, though it looks like I'm outvoted. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:59, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
The only way I would consider supporting the use of the word is if it is stated clearly that the reason people from Europe outside of Iberia consider Spain "exotic" is its Moorish heritage. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:21, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
Except that's not true, Ikan. Certainly, the Moorish heritage adds to Spain's perceived "exoticness", but there are many aspects of Spain which set it apart and make it seem exotic among some Europeans; its traditions (flamenco and the Spanish people's peculiar relationship with the bull being just two clichéd examples), its hot and unusually arid climate (the only deserts in Europe are Spanish), its cuisine (tapas is rather like mezze, and unusual in western Europe; rice is not usually a big part of European cuisines, but in Spain it is... again, we're only talking about the most obvious stereotypes, but as we know it's often stereotypes which stick in the minds of foreigners more than the less well-known aspects of a culture), its notoriously, and I would say unfairly-portrayed, laid-back lifestyle (the siesta, dinner being eaten as late as 10pm, rather than the 7-8pm European norm), its eccentric and avant-gardist artists and architects (Goya, Dalí, Gaudi, Picasso) and its classical music (often acoustic guitar-based rather than a strings-led full orchestra).
But I'm happy to go with consensus. I understand and agree with you that 'exotic' is a culturally-subjective term, and that it would be better to highlight exactly what is special about Spain (all I wrote above, plus so much more) than simply wrap it up in the umbrella term of "exotic". As you'll see, I reverted my own edit. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:32, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
I think the whole section could do with a rewrite. The "exotic" is not the only turn of phrase that sounds too much like a cliche in my ears. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:28, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

El Corte Inglés[edit]

is described as "not good enough for most purposes"---what is the author trying to say? Griffindd (talk) 09:28, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Bus prices[edit]

Does anyone know if the price for buses in Spain is dynamic? (like airline prices)

I'm finding even 2 hour inter-city buses are costing 15 euros, and some routes a whopping 45EU

I've also become aware that many Spaniards are getting major discounts on their long distance buses which makes me think the base rate might actually be a bit of a tourist tax. especially notable are discounts for advance bookings, group bookings and youth fares Twice I've asked about discounts at the ticket counter only to be mislead.

Does anyone have advice on this I can add? --95.16.30.236 13:00, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't know how the system is organized nationwide, but I know that on the L'Estartit-Girona route prices are not dynamic. As for discounts only locals can realistically get... Yeah. That is similar to what the Bahn Card or season tickets for local public transit do in effect in Germany. Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:55, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
doing some digging around it seems Spanish youth benefit from a huge discount on fares, but non-Spanish people don't (maybe EU youth might)and that season passes are the norm.

can't say I'm impressed being expected to pay for the whole Spanish network Also heard more competitive European lines are moving in, apparently Flixbus has a 5 rides for 100EU pass that works in Spain and might be a good note for "get in" it I can get the details

As far as I know Flixbus only serves a few stations near the border. Keep in mind that Flixbus does not own more than one bus and does not pay any toll in Germany and only pays for the use of some of its stations... Also keep in mind that locals pay local taxes Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:49, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

To do: Second homes[edit]

As we now have a travel topic for second homes, and these are common in Spain, this article could have a section about purchase and ownership of vacation property in Spain. /Yvwv (talk) 15:11, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

There'll probably a few of them coming on the market thanks to Brexit... Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:19, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Travel warning for Catalonia?[edit]

I've started a discussion on if we should have a travel warning for Catalonia at Talk:Catalonia#Travel warning?. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 07:15, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Making sure our coverage of Spain is top-notch[edit]

Swept in from the pub

It's evidently overtaken my homeland as the second-most traveled destination after France. —Justin (koavf)TCM 05:53, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

unfortunately Spanish Wikivoyage is not as good or active as the number of Spanish speakers might indicate... Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:59, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
Unfortunately, but we are doing our best to improve those articles little by little. --Zerabat (talk) 01:56, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Regional Breakdown[edit]

Spain map (es).png

While I think the Green Spain and Andalucia subdivisions are fine and I can live with Central Spain, I think throwing Catalonia and Valencia in together with Murcia is not a particularly inspired choice and there is little in terms of infrastructure, language, history or culture that justifies such a move. They all share a coastline, but that's about it. Valencia and Catalonia share a very similar regional language, but Murcia does not share that with them. Similarly Northern Spain combines linguistically politically and historically disparate regions that don't seem to have much in common. Given that our total number of regions for Spain is currently five and none of this level of region articles is really all that full or well written, maybe we could cut them a different way? Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:05, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't know much about Spain's geography. If I was you, I'd try to get in touch with Wikiviajes (Spanish-language Wikivoyage). I think there are at least some there who can speak English. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:52, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
I've posted a map here that is the static map used by the Spanish-language wiki for Spain. Maybe that's closer to what you're looking for. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:54, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps attaching Murcia to Andalucía would make more sense than saddling it with Valencia. Or, as in real life, perhaps Murcia should be its own region. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:03, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

I think the following changes make sense for historical reasons: 1) Aragon as part of Eastern Spain; 2) Murcia with Anadalucia. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 17:24, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
I've found the Spanish language WV often... devoid of activity... Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:08, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
Murcia + Andalucia would be kind of a weird Wikivoyage region—only two immediate subregions, one of which (Andalucia) is so much more important to travellers than the other. —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:14, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
I guess the number of autonomous communities in Spain (17) is a hard number for us to work with on Wikivoyage. It's a little too many for them all to be immediate subregions of the country, but when we start grouping them, we end up with regions that don't have enough subregions (Green Spain, Northern Spain, Eastern Spain, and Central Spain all fall short of the recommended 5–9). —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:21, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
Germany has 16 Länder (three of which, admittedly, are city-states) which serve as the subdivision there... Hobbitschuster (talk) 02:29, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
Maybe we can do something similar here then. One slightly unfortunate thing about the Germany article, though, is that the individual regions (Länder) don't have their own descriptions, so it's not obvious how a reader is supposed to choose which one to click on. (The Germany article isn't unique in having this problem; I've also noticed it in Washington, D.C., Chicago, and to a lesser extent Boston.) —Granger (talk · contribs) 04:58, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
Catalonia has tried to secede. Is there still a probability that Catalonia will be functionally independent within the next few years? If so, we should postpone the re-organization of Spanish regions until the dust has settled. /Yvwv (talk) 21:52, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
Given what happened to those who peacefully tried to secede, I think it is unlikely Catalonia will achieve independence without violence. And if political violence were to reach notable levels in a member state of the EU, there'll be problems entirely different from those of the regional breakdown of Spain... Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:58, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, we shouldn't hold our breath. I strongly doubt Catalonia will gain independence in the next few years. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:08, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Help with Eat and Drink[edit]

Cuisine articles are for detailed information about a country's or region's cuisine, so I copied everything (except the lead section in Eat) of the rather extensive Eat and Drink sections from this article to Spanish cuisine, and rearranged it a bit.

So probably more than half could be deleted from here, but the question is what to delete and what to leave in. At least the lists of dishes and products could go, whereas we should leave some information about restaurants and bars and a short list of some of the most notable dishes (maybe similar to the dishes in the older version of Spanish cuisine). Thoughts? --Ypsilon (talk) 19:32, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I pretty much agree with you, and like what you've done with Spanish cuisine. What do you need help with again? :)
All this article really needs in 'Eat' is types of restaurants, the weird meal times, maybe a bit about etiquette and the general culture, plus a few notable products and dishes. For 'Drink', an overview of the popular or typical drinks, the drink + tapa culture, plus information about nightlife.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:07, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
Well, I just figured it would be good with a second opinion. Nevertheless, as there've been no objections I'll start compressing the content in the Eat and Drink sections now. --Ypsilon (talk) 16:28, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Vox and other political parties[edit]

Thanks for your contributions to Spain, Hobbitschuster, but I'm actually not sure information about the Vox political party and political alliances is relevant to a travel guide at all. Sure, if they were in government, the need for a travel-relevant information would be present, but as it stands Vox isn't even as large as the National Rally in France, and probably not much larger than the AfD in Germany. Information about the independence referendums definitely is, so I would support keeping the updated information about the independence movement. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:19, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

There is a big difference between F-Haine, AfD and Vox: The former two are absolutely outside the realm of "parties one talks with" - the latter forms part of regional government in Andalusia, the Community of Madrid and in many cities. That, I think, is germane in a travel guide... Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:22, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
But politically Vox and AfD are quite similar, aren't they? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:35, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Guardia civil and politics[edit]

I agree that Franco sympathies in parts of the police might be relevant for travellers, but I also think just hinting on that (95 % of the force might still be communists, with the current wording) does little in informing on the matter. I think we instead should expand the paragraph in Respect, where we already say that Franco is a touchy issue. –LPfi (talk) 12:26, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Is there any police force on the planet where communist sympathizers amount to more than 5%? Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:11, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Perhaps not – but if it is non-surprising the Guardia Civil supported Franco, why do we need to tell about that?
The Guardia Civil having been involved in a coup attempt long ago says very little about what attitude you as a traveller should have to the police. The "tough guy image" says enough there, and we already tell about the coup in the History section (in a very long paragraph). We could also say something in Respect.
I know what the sentence on Guardia Civil means, but only because I have an acquaintance who told me about those times. If we need to tell leftist, anarchists, queers and similar to keep away from them and at least not show their political opinions, then we need to say that explicitly, not by telling about some historic events.
LPfi (talk) 11:20, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Political Tone[edit]

There are lots of awfully politicised assertions made on this page that have zero relevance to folks who are traveling to Spain. Facts such as Vox winning a seat recently or that a fraction of a percent of the Guardia Civil in 1981 participated in 23-F are not at all useful to travelers to Spain. The tone of some parts of this article clearly has a political motive, indiscriminately taking jabs at or downplaying the importance of certain national institutions, traditions, and historical political movements -- all sorts of things of tremendous national importance to Spaniards, but whose criticism in this article is without relevance to travelers.

By all means, if you want to add unlimited context to any and all, or just a small subsect, of notable Spanish topics, based on your personal interests, expertise, or political leanings, then please become active on Wikipedia by editing the articles corresponding to those topics. Meanwhile, about a quarter of the content in this article should be deleted as irrelevant and because it obscures information of actual utility.

This isn't to say that all assertions that may sound remotely political must be disallowed. For example, there is mentioning of the fact that 'non-European looking' folks may be subject to additional ID checks by authorities. That line is bound to irk some readers, but it's 100% useful and exactly the kind of nuanced information certain people come to expect from travel guides.

Whether or not you agree with me, editors should nevertheless be constantly mindful of maintaining political neutrality in the content they create.--2001:8003:818E:6800:8133:BB2B:2073:D81D 10:12, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

If you wish to defend fascism, go somewhere else. Hobbitschuster (talk) 10:30, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
I think the IP user has a point (as do User:SelfieCity and User:LPfi above, and User:ThunderingTyphoons! in the article's recent edit history). It feels like this article goes into too much detail about politics. Why does a traveller need to know this for instance? And I think most of the "Uncertain times in the third millennium" subsection could be removed. —Granger (talk · contribs) 11:06, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
So you say we should remove from our articles on Germany and Bavaria that its police is strict and "law&order"? And why on earth is the most recent history in your opinion the least relevant? Just to please some fash IP who also raised concern trolling false equivalence on Talk:Portland? Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:13, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
The role of the Guardia Civil in 23-F is explained in Spain#History. It does not need to be repeated in Spain#Stay safe. It is unlikely that many of the Guardia from 1981 are still on the streets 39 years later. If there is evidence that the Guardia commonly have fascist tendencies today, it would be useful to present that rather than ancient history. Ground Zero (talk) 11:14, 18 September 2020 (UTC)