Talk:Stockholm

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Districts?[edit]

Did someone get half way through splitting this article up into districts? There are a bunch of created district articles with no info in. I think the article is getting a bit long and could do with splitting up a bit. There is a list of 17 districts buried in the article but not visible yet, but do we really need them all? I think three or four different districts might be a better proposition...

map of 17 proposed districts

The 17 suggested districts are:

-- (WT-en) Tim (writeme!) 13:16, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

These are administrative districts, and the list is not up to date since some districts have been merged. Many of them are of little interest for tourists. /(WT-en) Blist 20:53, 24 May 2007 (EDT)
Administrative districts aren't of much use to tourists, so travel-related districts would be preferred. (Project:The traveller comes first). Can you help devise a set of districts (maybe half a dozen) that make sense? - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 21:31, 24 May 2007 (EDT)
I've tried to restructure the district section into four major zones relevant to visitors and resembling most Stockholmers "mental map" of the city, leaving administrative borough and municipality borders aside. While these four districts could be used for splitting up the article, I personally don't think the pros outweigh the cons. The Stockholm city center is small. All the three inner-city districts borders the others,and it's not very convenient to have attractions a few minutes apart in different articles. It would hurt overview and make extensive cross-referencing necessary. Modern browsers can handle long articles. Splitting articles should be reserved for "huge cities" like New York, and Stockholm simply isn't one of them. (WT-en) Alarm 16:14, 9 December 2007 (EST)
So, any objection to all the district names being un-wiki-linked, so that unwanted articles are less likely to be created (eg Södermalm)? ~ 203.144.143.4 07:24, 26 January 2008 (EST)
Also, what to do about Stockholm/Norrmalm? ~ 203.144.143.4 07:33, 26 January 2008 (EST)
No, no objections. The best way to go is probably to unlink district names and turn existing district articles (all rudimentary) into redirects to Stockholm. (WT-en) Alarm 18:04, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Stockholm was slushed as DoTM, due to the article not being districified per Slush Pile/Stockholm - --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 14:01, 25 May 2009 (EDT)

The Stockholm School of Economics?[edit]

When looking at the See section, the Stockholm School of Economics feels like a somewhat odd inclusion. All the other listings have a more or less obvious tourist appeal. While it might be interesting to include some places where tourists wouldn't normally go, this place isn't the first on my list of potential listings in that category. I'm going to be bold and cut it from the article for now. If someone wants to include it, I'd be grateful for suggestions on what to call the subheader it should be placed under.

The full text of the listing is below. /(WT-en) Alarm 16:00, 20 January 2008 (EST)

  • The Stockholm School of Economics. A time honored institution that has seen some of the most famous people in Sweden come and go in its halls. The school is located in an imposing building on Sveavägen close to the Public Library. Hang around for a while and see the future rulers of the country frolick in their sunday bests. The cafe located downstairs has got some excellent coffee as well.

Do: WalkingTours[edit]

It seems to me the description of the "Ice Age to IKEA" walking tour is rather lacking. The tour is described simply as a "performance tour." First, this is unclear. I imagined for a moment people in a tour group walking fast and swinging their arms. Besides this being a fairly ludicrous (albeit humorous) image, I remembered I had read about this tour, and had gathered that it is led by tour guides in Viking costumes, is perhaps generally Viking-themed, and is intended to be "comedic," as stated on the company's website. It seems to me the writer could have given a more detailed description while remaining objective. I plan to visit Stockholm in the near future, so if no one has elaborated on that section by the time I get back, I plan to add more detail to that part. I don't feel good editing that section at this time, not having personally experienced the tour.

OK, I've been to Stockholm now, and my husband and I failed to take the tour. We ate lunch at a cafe on Stortorget with the intention of grabbing the tour after lunch. As we were settling our bill, I noticed that a young woman who appeared to be dressed in street clothes was standing near the Gallivant Productions Viking tour sign, which was in front of the Nobel Museum. I figured she was another tourist waiting for the tour guide to turn up. My husband went to use the restaurant's restroom before we walked over there to wait. At about 2 minutes till time for the Viking tour to start, the young woman near the sign walked away across the square. I then saw a cheap-looking brown cloak flow out behind her as she walked, and realized this must have been the Gallivant Productions "Viking" tour guide. Therefore we missed the tour. I must say that based on what we saw on their website and their blog, my husband and I were expecting the guide to be wearing a bit more costuming than a brown cloak of a quality that one might find at a cheap costume shop. At least a horned helmet would have made the tour guide more recognizable as such. Based on the lack of costuming effort on the guide's part, and the fact that she left a couple of minutes early, we concluded that the company, or at the very least that particular guide, was not trying very hard at this point in time. Granted, since no one else appeared to be waiting for the tour, she might have ended up deciding it wasn't worthwhile to do the tour for just two people even if my husband had managed to catch her before she left, but we were definitely underwhelmed by the apparent lack of effort we saw. Maybe someone else will have better luck with it.

Plunge forward! (WT-en) Jpatokal 01:57, 16 July 2009 (EDT)

Districts again[edit]

After reading the article and the talk (and the talk on DotM), I think we could really stand to districtify Stockholm, with the proviso that it's easy to walk from one district to the next.

I like the districts we have now, but they need their own articles. (WT-en) Foretopsail 16:10, 11 May 2010 (EDT)

StockholmCityDraft.png
It is about time we start districtifying Stockholm. Based on what we have in the article now, we could have the following central districts as illustrated on the map:
* Norrmalm
* Östermalm (including Djurgården)
* Kungsholmen (including Essingen)
* Gamla Stan
* Södermalm
I am concerned if this is too many central districts. Could we merge some of them?, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 04:48, 14 September 2010 (EDT)
StockholmDraft.png
And for the suburbs, I suggest the following as shown on the map:
* Västerort
* Söderort
* Northern Suburbs (including Solna, Sunbyberg, Danderyd, Sollentuna)
* Western Islands (including Ekerö)
* Southern Suburbs (including Huddinge, Haninge, Tyresö, Södertälje)
* Eastern Suburbs (including Vaxholm, Lidingö, Nacka, Värmdö)
Also here, this could be too many districts. They will have very limited content to start with. Maybe Västerort and Norther Suburbs should be merged as well as Söderort and Southern Suburbs. One other question is whether some of the surrounding towns like Södertälje, Huddinge, Danderyd should be part of Stockholm or should be considered separate cities
Comments are most welcome, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 07:54, 14 September 2010 (EDT)
Are there really no-one who has an opinion on this? If not, I will start districtifying according to the suggestion above (maybe with a bit fewer suburban districts), --(WT-en) ClausHansen 03:50, 16 September 2010 (EDT)

The Eastern and the Western Suburbs are often seen as parts of southern Stockholm. I dont think that västerort and the norhern suburbs should be merged as västerort is a part of Stockholm city while the northern Suburbs are independent cities with a different enviroment. Söderort and Västerort are (besides from the central area) the most important areas and should have their own articles. --83.191.245.141 11:24, 17 September 2010 (EDT)

Thank you for the input. Any suggestions on what to call a district combining western, eastern and southern suburbs?, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 17:00, 17 September 2010 (EDT)

In my opinion Stockholm could be districtified as your uppermost picture, plus one article combining all the suburbs called e.g. just "Suburban Stockholm". That one could also of course contain information concerning metropolitan municipalities like Sundbyberg, Solna etc.. If someone writes more information on areas in Greater Stockholm further away like Södertälje, there could be separate North, West, and South articles like it has been done in London. As for now there is definitely not enough information concerning each one of the suburbs to justify own articles for them - we'll end up with a stub collection like Prague or Warsaw. (WT-en) Ypsilon 09:17, 25 January 2011 (EST)

I agree w/ the previous -- a tourist will care mainly about 1. Gamla Stan, 2. Södermalm, 3. Djurgården/Skeppsholmen/Östermalm/Norrmalm and 4. Kungsholmen. The outlying suburbs should be separate. I'd also be tempted to lump Djurgården/Skeppsholmen in with Gamla Stan since they fit thematically a little better with the touristy stuff, and leave Östermalm/Norrmalm as a standalone entry for shopping. --(WT-en) Roya 11:14, 31 January 2011 (EST)

Based on the above, I will start districtifying as follows:
* Norrmalm
* Östermalm (including Djurgården)
* Kungsholmen (including Essingen)
* Gamla Stan
* Södermalm
* Northern and Western Suburbs (which eventually can be split in Västerort, Western Islands and Northern Suburbs, when we have enough content)
* Southern and Eastern Suburbs (which eventually can be split in Söderort, Southern Suburbs and Eastern Suburbs, when we have enough content)

--(WT-en) ClausHansen 11:57, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

Stockholm archipelago deserves an article in its own right. That would leave Lidingö and Nacka as the only "eastern" suburbs. Maybe Lidingö should have its own article? Discussion below. /(WT-en) Blist 16:48, 20 July 2012 (EDT)

Stay Safe Section[edit]

There is too much highly subjective information in the Stay Safe section. It appears that there are some too intent on pushing their anti-immigrant stance with relation to the suburbs of Stockholm coupled with some of the rhetoric about crime that is totally at odds with crime statistics.

Whilst Sweden (according to statistics published by Eurostat) has shown an increase in crime levels, the levels of violent crime are below the average for Western Europe (amongst the lowest for Europe) coupled with one of the lowest murder rates of 1.05 in Western Europe. If the statistics were to be believed, one would be far more likely to be attacked in London (~4x the risk of violent crime to Stockholm according to Eurostat) yet previously another editor had said that Stockholm had a similar rate of crime to London or New York, which is completely erroneous.

It is important to put these warnings into context rather than subjecting prospective visitors to hyperbole and or political rhetoric. This is not what Wikivoyage was intended for. Telling prospective visitors to not wear jewellery in public is downright ridiculous and completely over the top as no similar European cities issue such warnings. If one were to believe the previous warnings, one would be taking less care in Johannesburg (based on their stay safe section) compared to Stockholm, and given the respective crime rates I find this a rather difficult pill to swallow.

I believe, in closing, that the most supportive information comes from observing The Mercer Livability Study which has rated Stockholm as the 6th safest city in the world with regards to personal safety. If this is not a good enough guide to put this section into a global perspective then I fear for the wikipedia editors.

Information for this post was sourced from:

Eurostat: http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/portal/page/portal/eurostat/home/

Mercer livability: http://www.expatinfodesk.com/news/2011/11/30/mercer-names-the-safest-places-in-the-world-in-which-to-live/

(WT-en) Globentrekker 16:25, 10 April 2012 (EDT)

Good riddance. /(WT-en) Blist 08:18, 20 July 2012 (EDT)

Image cleanup[edit]

This article is currently heavy with many images of so-so quality: overexposed, underexposed, or shot from very uninspiring angles. Many of them are also quite similar, going against the "no more images than necessary" policy. Also, the layout is messed up with huge white walls especially at HD resolution. Cleanup time, fellas. (I'll get to it when I get the time, if nobody does it before me). (WT-en) Jake73 02:29, 16 April 2012 (EDT)

I am sorry you feel that way about the images. Prior to my addition of a few of my photographs (and I admit they're not that great) there were very few images on the Stockholm page relative to the rest of Wikivoyage. I haven't seen any "white walls" that you speak about on the three computers I edit from but perhaps I don't have a monitor as large as yours. I would suggest, if you feel these are sub-standard images that you contribute your own for display. I have removed my images from the article so you can commence layout clean up. (WT-en) Globentrekker 07:35, 16 April 2012 (EDT)
I agree with you that there's space for a few additional images in this article, but there are lots of free high quality Stockholm images on the web so those that we add should be good ones. No offence, but the day that you shot your pictures sure was a grey and depressing one that will inspire few potential visitors. The white wall layout was on a full HD monitor (1920x1080). Still, thanks for your work on this and other articles - I see that you've done a lot of good things. (WT-en) Jake73 10:46, 23 April 2012 (EDT)

Getting Cash[edit]

My Canadian ATM card did not work in Stockholm. I have put this information on the Stockholm page a few times, but someone keeps censoring it. I think it's quite important. Also, after ATMs rejected my credit card, I went into a bank to get a cash advance on my credit card, but the teller told me they don't do that. The last time I put this information on the page, I wrote the following text which was shorter than what I wrote previously:

There are many ATMs in the city. However, in May, 2011, this writer found that his bank card on the Plus network was rejected by four ATMs and his Visa credit card was rejected twice by ATMs displying the Plus and Visa logos before finding an ATM that accepted the Visa card. These cards have worked fine many times in other European countries.

There are many locations of a currency exchange called Forex, but they charge a whopping 45 SEK (7$) commission on top of their buy-sell spread.

Hello. I would speculate that the reason your edits are getting reverted is that, instead of saying that Canadians may have trouble finding ATMs that work for their cards, you edited the text to say "There are many ATMs for Swedish bank cards in the city." I assume that the ATMs work for other European cards, and perhaps other cards from some other foreign countries. If you want to say something, just say it clearly (though without using a first person account in the article), and without overly general insinuations. Sorry you had so much trouble on your visit! (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 06:15, 5 May 2012 (EDT)
My previous edits were more like you suggested. My latest edit "There are many ATMs for Swedish bank cards in the city" replaced the previous text "There are many ATMs in the city" which censored my text above and is totally misleading since my experience was that the ATMs were unusable with my usual bank card that works in other countries in Europe. I think the latest edit to the text (after mine) is overly general. As long as my description of the problem survives here, I suppose I'll be satisfied with that.
You think this edit is overly general??
"There are many ATMs in the city, but some foreign card-holders, such as a Canadian, have reported trouble in using them, even when they purport to be connected to international networks their banks are part of, so consider doing some research before you arrive."
That is quite a lot more specific than "There are many ATMs for Swedish bank cards in the city."! (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 06:36, 7 May 2012 (EDT)
Generally it seems that foreign ATM cards work perfectly well in Sweden if they are labelled with the correct, supported card company (IE: VISA, Mastercard, AmEx, Diners Card, Plus, Swift, Maestro, Visa Electron etc). It may also be that your bank does not allow you to use your card abroad or has restrictions on your account. Generally one needs (when one travels) to ensure that ones card is able to be used in that country. It may be that certain banks here will only accept certain card companies too. (WT-en) Globentrekker 15:37, 7 May 2012 (EDT)

Districts: Lidingö, Norrmalm/Östermalm and Ekerö[edit]

  • As Lidingö is geographically separate from the northern and southern suburbs, containing several points of interests (Millesgården, Bosön etc) and many hotels, we should create a separate article named Stockholm/Lidingö. /(WT-en) Blist 08:20, 20 July 2012 (EDT)
  • The official Norrmalm/Östermalm border is Birger Jarlsgatan. As it cuts through Stureplan and Nybroplan, that division is inconvenient for a traveller. Some suggestions:
  1. Merging Stockholm/Norrmalm with Stockholm/Östermalm, creating a very long article. We could possibly introduce a Stockholm/Djurgården article, to reduce the burden.
  2. Describing Birger Jarlsgatan in Stockholm/Norrmalm.
  3. Describing Birger Jarlsgatan in Stockholm/Östermalm.

What do you think? /(WT-en) Blist 09:48, 20 July 2012 (EDT)

I've never been to Stockholm, so my comments come from looking at the map only, but how about joining the whole 'urban' part of Östermalm to Norrmalm and leaving more green, open part on its own. That way there is no cutting Birger Jarlsgatan area. Like this [1]. That way the districts are more less same size. (WT-en) Jjtk 03:07, 23 July 2012 (EDT)
  • With two World heritage sites, and covering more than 200 square kilometers, only connected to the mainland at Nockebybron, Ekerö or Stockholm/Ekerö should deserve an article on its own. What do you think? /(WT-en) Blist 20:34, 22 July 2012 (EDT)
Yeah, but right now Stockholm/Northern and Western Suburbs is quite empty anyway and we might end up with a bunch of stub articles, like in Warsaw. (WT-en) Jjtk 03:14, 23 July 2012 (EDT)
There's much to add, even if Sigtuna, Ekerö and Lidingö are excluded. Starting off right now. /(WT-en) Blist 07:39, 23 July 2012 (EDT)

What should we call the tunnelbana?[edit]

What word shall we use for the tunnelbana? SL uses Metro in its information, but the word subway is frequently used. /Yvwv (talk) 22:29, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Nacka?[edit]

Where should we stick Nacka? So far, it is in the Södertörn district. But maybe we need a new district for Nacka and Värmdö? /Yvwv (talk) 13:49, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Shortening "See" and "Do"[edit]

One of the things that may be keeping this article from being approved for a front-page feature (see Wikivoyage:Destination of the month candidates) is the length and listiness of the "See" and "Do" sections. In an article for a districted city, these sections should provide a brief prose overview, not a bunch of bulleted listings. I haven't had the pleasure of visiting Stockholm, so I wouldn't be the best person to choose which few sights and activities to mention as highlights in a brief overview. What do you all think? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:46, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, definitely. And prices, URLs and such should be put in the districts. I could give it a try. ϒpsilon (talk) 12:15, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Alternative banner for this article?[edit]

old banner currently used in this article
suggested new banner (which is currently used in the parallel article in the Hebrew Wikivoyage)

In the Hebrew Wikivoyage we are currently using this banner instead of the one which is currently used here. Do you think too that this banner would would better than the existing one? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 02:25, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

I think the new one is better, has better lighting. Texugo (talk) 02:30, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Yes, and also a better composed picture, without surprisingly cut off buildings or just the tops of a building. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:07, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Yes, the proposed banner looks better. Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:34, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
I am OK with the new banner. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 20:19, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
Agreed. They're essentially the same shot but the lower image has better lighting. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 00:32, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Newer image crisper Matroc (talk) 03:43, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Destination of the month and districts[edit]

So, Stockholm was nominated as DotM for upcoming August, but was removed from the list after the discussion where User:ChubbyWimbus voiced concerns about the quality of the district articles. In other words, something has to be done about them.

An article has be be at least a guide to be DotM and for a districtified city all the city districts have to be usable or better. While they all might be usable (at least how to get in, one sight, one eatery and one accommodation), many of the city articles are rather short, and do we really need to have that many different (short) district articles? (To put it into a perspective: I suggested to split Helsinki/Central with more POIs than any of Stockholm's districts into three pieces and it was opposed.)

Would it really be such a bad idea to combine some articles, for example like this: Västerort+Ekerö, Norrort+Sigtuna+Solna & Sundbyberg+Lidingö, Nacka & Värmdö+Söderort+Södertörn, Norrmalm+Kungsholmen, Skeppsholmen+the former or Djurgården or Gamla Stan, Vaxholm+Stockholm archipelago? After all we're not talking about NYC, Paris or Tokyo, inte sant, User:Yvwv? ϒpsilon (talk) 20:02, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree, we got Stockholm split into too many districts and it really isn't useful. I agree with merging most of the suburbs / outer districts into articles covering vast swathes of land and sparsely distributed POIs. I would, however, consider moving some of the POIs close to the central districts there, so that one would not have to look for something that is just a T-banan stop away in another article. In particular, for everything south of Sodermalm that is still within the ringroad, like Hammarby Sjostad, I'd move that to Sodermalm. PrinceGloria (talk) 05:35, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Are we moving anywhere with this? PrinceGloria (talk) 21:12, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
[2] ϒpsilon (talk) 21:22, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, I now know where we are on the DoTM, but I was more concerned with merging the districts. I would like to work with you on that and see which work and which don't and how we can use this opportunity to vastly improve the article. Any pointers on where we can start? PrinceGloria (talk) 06:44, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
Well, the first things to do would be to decide upon the districts and their boundaries so that we'd know what to put where. I would suggest the following scheme, which would cut the articles from 20 to 12:
  1. Norrmalm & Kungsholmen (Norrmalm + Skeppsholmen that already now kinda belongs under it +Kungsholmen)
  2. Vasastan (leave it as it is)
  3. Östermalm (leave it as it is)
  4. Djurgården (leave it as it is)
  5. Gamla Stan (leave it as it is)
  6. Södermalm ("Södermalm & Inner South"?) - as you suggested we might include things south of Södermalm proper, however I wouldn't go further than Globen at most.
  7. West (Västerort+Ekerö)
  8. North (Norrort + Solna Sundbyberg + Sigtuna)
  9. Lidingö (after some reflection, leave it as it is)
  10. South (Söderort + Nacka Värmdö + Södertörn)
  11. Södertälje (so far out we should maybe not mention it here, leave the article it as it is)
  12. Stockholm archipelago (merge Vaxholm into it)
What do you think? ϒpsilon (talk) 08:01, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
I would go a bit further:
  • Merge Östermalm and Djurgården, as they are administratively - there is a bit in Djurgården, but not enough to support the island on its own as a district IMHO.
  • Lidingö could go with the Archipelago and Vaxholm IMHO
  • Your North and your West could work well together IMHO
  • If you really want to merge Kungsholmen with Norrmalm, Vasastan should go in as well, otherwise it would become unwieldy to provide a reasonably-shaped map of the merged region.
  • I would keep Norrmalm as it is though, due to its importance, popularity with travellers and shape that lends itself well to it mapping at a high zoom level. If we merge Skepsholmen into Norrmalm though (which is kinda natural - too small to stand on its own and it belongs just there), I would keep it off the map (i.e. set the map as it is, not zoom out to show Skeppsholmen
What do you think of the above? Perhaps we could start with enlarging Södermalm and refurbishing the South? PrinceGloria (talk) 16:00, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

(unindent) * Östermalm and Djurgården...this is going to give us a ton of See points but OK.

  • Lidingö is slightly problematic, I think it's a bit too urban to put it with the archipelago. How would a Östermalm-Djurgården-Lidingö article sound? On the other hand Lidingö has an exciting banner (which it would be a shame to ditch).
  • I would rather keep the Western and Northern articles separate, we don't have that few POIs in each of them and otherwise we'd end up with an enormous area.
  • For the central parts, Norrmalm is indeed the downtown area and it is an extensive article so let's keep it separate (and include Skeppsholmen in it). Vasastan and Kungsholmen both have a little less stuff in each (except for restaurants). How would it sound to you if we'd make a Vasastan-Kungsholmen article instead? ϒpsilon (talk) 16:54, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
Regaring your reply:
  • Good to hear we can agree on Östermalm and Djurgården, let us attack this one after we're done with Södermalm‎ and the South and try make the combined article digestible.
  • Let's leave Lidingö out for now and discuss this again down the road when all else is done.
  • North and West - the POIs there are few and far between, I don't see a problem with a map of an enormous area, and every POI would require detailed instructions on how to get there rather than much of a common "get in", regardless of whether we keep them separate or combined. I thus see no benefit to keeping them separate.
  • Vasastan and Kungsholmen would be equally hard to portray on one map and quite illogical for the traveller to combine. If anything, my guess is that we are from having all the POIs the we should in this article - we can work on making it more comprehensive.
  • I have created User:PrinceGloria/Södermalm‎ and User:PrinceGloria/South by copying the contents of Södermalm‎ and Söderort. We can now move POIs between the two (e.g. add Hammarby Sjostad to Sodermalm) and expand the South by adding the other currently separate districts.
Looking forward to making Stockholm our best guide on Wikivoyage! PrinceGloria (talk) 19:11, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
Why not? Although right now I've got a few hundred geo coordinates left to google up and add to Finnish cities' articles (some of which look like something the cat has brought in, thus needing cleanup) so I'll be joining the Stockholm project actively maybe the next weekend. I leave it up to you to decide the exact border between Södermalm and Southern suburbs.
Let's keep Vasastan, Kungsholmen and Norrmalm separate then? If we combine the northern and western suburbs we'll have a total of about 10 districts.
Would be good to hear fellow Y's thoughts about this, s/he is a local I think and has done a whole lot of work on Stockholm's articles, including the banners, plus put up the DotM nomination there. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:47, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
I admit I have not moved much further with it, but the more I think of it, the more I would like to split Nacka and Varmdo, and have Varmdo become a part of the Archipelago, which it basically is. Nacka has some POIs that are close to Soderort and that help complete the crescent surrounding Sodermalm. Adding Varmdo would make that area excessively spread out IMHO.
I have similar reservations regarding Sodertorn - how long are we going to stretch out south? Should we include Nynashamn? I believe we need to draw a line somewhere. PrinceGloria (talk) 21:30, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
The map currently in the article for quick reference
Myself I've done even less on Stockholm. OK, Värmdö into the Archipelago and Nacka into "Södermalm+", why not?
For the southern parts of Stockholm I would suggest ditching Södertörn completely from this equation. It is officially not part of Stockholm county (Stockholms län), and in our hierarchy it is also part of Södermanland instead of Metropolitan Stockholm. This would mean we could make use of the official county border visible in the dynamic map. In this case I'd suggest including Ekerö in the Southern suburbs article to add some more POIs and diminish the otherwise geographically huge Northern suburbs.
Ps. let's first add coordinates to all the listings. One gets a better idea about which areas particular articles cover if the POIs are on the map. ϒpsilon (talk) 11:11, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
BTW, decided yet where to put the border between "Södermalm with frills" and the Southern Suburbs, Prince? I think the southern ring you mentioned earlier could be a good alternative. Also, the current Nacka article also stretches quite far as of now. I think Nackareservatet and Hellasgården could go into the Southern Suburbs instead of somewhere else. ϒpsilon (talk) 17:06, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
Regarding the border between "enlarged Sodermalm" and "Sodertorn", I am quite partial to the idea of including Globen, as a major destination. That would put us ever so lightly outside of the ring, but I guess we can make this concession. I will try to migrate the POIs to User:PrinceGloria/Södermalm in due course, as well as add latlongs to other POIs in other southern articles for us to be able to copy them to User:PrinceGloria/South and see how it pans out. PrinceGloria (talk) 17:10, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
OK now, User:PrinceGloria/Södermalm now contains all the POIs I wanted to move there from Soderort and Nacka. I am slightly concern if by enlarging the area we are not losing the fine detail of Sodermalm island proper that would be visible if we could limit the article to it and increase the zoom level of the map. On the other hand, I'd really want to keep the POIs right next to Sodra Lanken in one article rather than smear in one large article encompassing some remoting POIs. A solution may be an article on the Sodra Lanken area (we can call it Soderort), which would be quite POI-poor in the beginning but could fill up nicely if we dug deeper and included stuff now omitted.
As for other locations and POIs, I believe Sodertalje and Nynashamn should have their own articles, and everything that doesn't go into either, the Sodermalm/Soderort/Sodra Lanken articles as discussed above and the Stockholm Archipelago should land directly in the Stockholm County article. Whoops, we don't have one - which opens another issue - one of the terrible territorial division of Sweden itself we have here. PrinceGloria (talk) 04:28, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Yes, this was almost I was trying to say earlier. The Södermalm+ article would contain Södermalm, a few things immediately south of it, plus urban Nacka. Värmdö would go to the archipelago. The Southern suburbs would largely consist of the current Söderort article, the two Do POIs in southern Nacka as well as Ekerö. Södertörn - the rust brown area in the current map - would on the other hand not be part of Stockholm at all. ϒpsilon (talk) 06:32, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
This terrible map of Stockholm County municipalities is sadly the only one I could find in the Commons, so I am including it here for reference

OK now, we seem to agree on something, so I propose the following hierarchy:

I'd keep the archipelago out of the Stockholm article to limit the number of districts - it isn't that easy to get there from Stockholm. I have similar feelings regarding Lidingö, but we may keep it as a "district" due to geographical proximity.

If we agree on the above, I'd move to ask User:Saqib or another kind soul to make us two new, clear maps, marking airports, major roads and such, for the Stockholm city and Stockholm County, to replace the current, woeful one which you included above. PrinceGloria (talk)

Looks reasonable. ϒpsilon (talk) 07:33, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Brilliant! Would you want to take care of the maps in due course, or should I start pestering Saqib or somebody else? I can take care of moving stuff between articles, merging them etc. (with the hope that you would help with that down the road) PrinceGloria (talk) 07:36, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Out of the currently active mapmakers I daresay I have the best knowledge of Stockholm so it's maybe best that I make the maps. Stockholm was one of the first maps I made, so the new ones will likely at least slightly better :)
It's best to keep all the new districts in your user space together with those two that already there. I will help out with developing them of course. ϒpsilon (talk) 07:50, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
HAHA! I managed to trick you into making the maps! BTW, is this map above yours? I would have NEVER thought that given what I saw you create for e.g. Helsinki... 8-0 -> Excuse me for being disrespectful of it.
I will create all the districts requiring adjustments in my user page over this week and invite you (and others) to check on them and join in before we deploy them whenever you are ready with the maps as well. PrinceGloria (talk) 07:54, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Actually a separate Stockholm county article might not be needed. On the south side we can move Södertörn to Södermanland, and there split off Södertälje, Nynäshamn etc. if it's needed. Breadcrumb-wise Stockholm archipelago sits directly under Svealand now, why not make an entry of it in the Svealand article and call it a day? Northern Stockholm County can be shoved Upp land - that is, if we need such an article…
…namely in this situation we would have four subregions of Uppland (NSC, Roslagen, Uppland Plains, Western Uppland). But when I look at the content in those countryside semicounty articles most of the content could be merged into an already existing city article if it isn't already there (!) or if that is entirely impossible - into Uppland. If we remove Stockholm, SolnaSundbyberg and Vaxholm from Uppland#Cities (as they are not part of Uppland in our hierarchy) there’d be room for practically all cities mentioned in the subregions from Sigtuna to Norrtälje and whatnot - the smaller ones could be placed in “Other destinations” (and from there, Ekerö should consequentially be removed). ϒpsilon (talk) 13:04, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Stockholm County is a valid entity people actually come to visit - the "Greater Stockholm". It has the common SL transportation system, actual webpages and is reference in other places. It is a much more reasonable destination than "Uppland" that not many people heard about outside of Sweden. Moreover, by creating it we make the organization of Stockholm's suburbs and satellites clearer - which is why it was created as an administrative entity in the first place. Sweden's division into counties is very logical and practial IMHO, which is why it stands, with some alterations, since the 17th century. I wouldn't argue with success.
I would rather have the Uppsala county rather than Uppland, as from a point of view of a tourist not familiar with Sweden this is an actual destinations that is easy to locate on the map and one would actually go to visit. Similarly, Södermanland should be the county it is, with a seat / focal point in Nyköping and encompassing the 9 municipalities in the county. The current division using the historic provinces is very confusing to people not knowing Stockholm and Sweden and was the very thing I would want to change. If a place is in the Stockholm county, one should be able to find it there in Wikivoyage, and not hunt for it guessing if it is in Uppland, Sodermanland or somewhere else. PrinceGloria (talk) 14:47, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

(undent) The new system of the counties are the one that appear on official highway signs and such, but the historical provinces and names are nevertheless frequently encountered in practice. Matter of fact I just realized that our Norrland article is subdivided according to the modern län while everything south of it is subdivided according to the traditional landskap - of course not all of them, Scania is again a modern län! How have this possibly gotten this way? Well, I won't argue about Stockholm then. Let's make a Stockholm county article and rename the rest of Uppland Uppsala county, that's what it actually is. (But I think you agree that the extra layer currently in Uppland should be removed) ϒpsilon (talk) 16:15, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I very much do! I see no reason for any of the existing regions below the county level. Should be: big region -> county -> city/municipality and, only in the case of Stockholm -> district. If we are on the fence regarding county vs province, I'd move to counties, but then apart from Stockholm most other in Svealand and Gotaland are either synonymous with each other or one province covers a few a counties, which helps limit the number of regions. PrinceGloria (talk) 18:48, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
The stuff in those subregions (I'm talking about Western Uppland, Roslagen and Uppland Plains now) should preferably be moved to nearby appropriate cities/towns/municipalities. It mostly consists of individual POIs. If the POI is not located in one it can probably be smuggled into the Go next section if it's reasonably close. Much of it is in fact already in a city article and just repeated in the subregion article. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:03, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Redistrictification status[edit]

Status update 1 - South[edit]

We can now deploy:

Sidenote:

  • Södertörn was left in the main namespace, I moved the selected POIs to Söderort in my userspace not to create a billion versions of articles just to move three POIs. We can work in the main namespace on moving POIs between Södertörn and Södertälje

We can thus delete / replace / redirect:

  • Södermalm - to be superseded by the version above containing localities immediately surrounding the main island of Södermalm Yes Done
  • Söderort - to be superseded by the abridged version above
  • Stockholm Archipelago - to be superseded by the version above containing Vaxholm and Värmdö Yes Done
  • Nacka and Värmdö Yes Done
  • Vaxholm - there really wasn't much there but three See POIs, now included in my version of the Archipelago Yes Done

I have also discovered an article on Sjövägen, which I believe adds little value and qualifies for deletion. Yes Done

I let you have the call on the above and do the moves and deletions/redirects if you believe we are ready for that. PrinceGloria (talk) 04:36, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

From Sjövägen, merge anything worth merging into the Archipelago (again, if it isn't already there) and after that redirect it there. Good job! ϒpsilon (talk) 04:48, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
I actually did merge it into Södermalm, as it goes to Nacka Strand (on the eastern outskirts of "our" Södermalm), but not to any of the islands. If you think something is ready for deployment, could you please redirect it etc.? I'd hate being my own judge here. PrinceGloria (talk) 04:54, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
As Sjövägen goes between different parts of Stockholm, I'll redirect it to Stockholm. Nacka & Värmdö are split between three new districts, so also there Stockholm itself is the most logical place to redirect to.
The information seems to be there, so I'll update Södermalm and the Archipelago with your versions now. I'll leave Söderort here until Ekerö is merged with it, it's probably best so.
Many of the listings are POI markers and/or otherwise messed up (who the h. is creative enough to put br tags inside a listing!??), but there let's finish the merger of information and the whole district structure and after that start tidying up the listings.ϒpsilon (talk) 10:41, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Status update: All POIs in Ekerö now have geo coordinates. As does everything that will become the future [Norrort+Västerort] and [Northern Stockholm county] articles. So now they'll appear right away on the map in the new article when you move them there and you can adjust the map accordingly. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:47, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Thanks a WHOLE lot. I will get down to Ekero at the very end, as I find this the most tricky part and this article bothers me the least. I will try to take the north next (both Vasterort+Norrort and the Northern Stockholm County), and then perhaps Ostermalm+Djugarden. We may also want to start the Stockholm County article at this point and edit the two current province articles accordingly. PrinceGloria (talk) 20:55, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
PS. Do excuse my earlier confusion, I realized that for some reason I did not have some articles I edited o my watchlist (weird) and also my cache acted up, so I had a weird vision of what is going on and what the current versions look like.

Status update 2 - North[edit]

A little question, Prince...in the district list (next to the "terrible map") above you suggest combining the northern and western suburbs into one single article. This move suggests otherwise. I'm OK with either way. ϒpsilon (talk) 10:10, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion - I got confused myself by the map currently used in the main article and the intricate structure of extant articles - everything that I considered "Norrort" is actually already included in the article I created. The current Northern suburbs of Stockholm are just what I wanted to become Northern Stockholm County (I only need to add Sigtuna). My only question is how should we name the article I just created to be precise but at the same time not too complicated - is it Vasterort, Vasterort&Norrort or what? PrinceGloria (talk) 18:35, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
Western & Northern suburbs? Outer West & North? Norrort & Västerort? ϒpsilon (talk) 18:40, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
This is inner rather, I am referring to the grouping of Solna, Sundbyberg, Bromma, Kista et al. as per my article. I'd go by Vasterort or Vasterort & Norrort if you wouldn't find that inappropriate or misleading (as the outer Northern Stockholm County could also be termed Norrort). PrinceGloria (talk) 19:12, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
Yes, yes, of course (I'm replying in the Tourist Office and creating Asian banners at the same time as I'm discussing :P). "Västerort & Norrort" is good and logical. In the south we also call the suburbs that are closer to Stockholm and belongs to Stockholm city Söderort. (Northern Stockholm County would then be the equivalent of Södertörn). ϒpsilon (talk) 19:39, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
I've had some thoughts after re-reading w:se:Norrort and I decided to leave the article as it is (User:PrinceGloria/Västerort,_Solna_and_Sundbyberg) - btw, while I believe it could be improved over time, I think it is ready for deployment. I think "Norrort" should be better used to describe all the municipalities of the User:PrinceGloria/Stockholm County (ain't it ready for deployment either?). I also started thinking I might leave an attempt of integrating Djurrgarden and Ostermalm for later - if we agree on having Ekero separate from Stockholm within Stockholm County, we would still be within 9 districts of the city proper. What do you think? PrinceGloria (talk) 06:59, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
PS. I will integrate Sigtuna and Norrtälje into Norrort working on the live articles in the mainspace - there isn't anything overly complicated or controversial about that IMHO.
You mean Norrort=basically everything north of Sundbyberg? I'm fine with that, given that we don't have many POIs in those areas. ϒpsilon (talk) 07:11, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
I the meantime I had another change of heart and decided Norrtälje should remain a separate part of Stockholm County for a number of reasons (although the article needs a lot of work). I will integrate Sigtuna into Norrort though. Do we deploy User:PrinceGloria/Stockholm County? I will make a provisional map thereof provided you agree with the above changes - and agree to make a map for Stockholm :) PrinceGloria (talk) 07:15, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
Norrtälje, a town in the middle of fields and countryside does really not make me think of Stockholm, although it administratively belongs to Stockholms län so I have no problems keeping it as a separate entity. I almost feel tempted to suggest pushing it over to Uppland/Uppsala county. Sigtuna contains Arlanda airport, so it is logical to have it as part of Norrort. Will start Inkscaping the map in the weekend. ϒpsilon (talk) 07:29, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

FYI not long until I have the map of the inner districts done. One of the districts is called "Västerort, Solna and Sundbyberg" just as in the version in your userspace (I think it is fine to deploy that one too), I assume that's how you planned to call the district in the real version too. ϒpsilon (talk) 13:45, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Stockholm's new map is done. I will now let loose Stockholm county and your version of Västerort & co, update the breadcrumb structure, move around districts and such. ϒpsilon (talk) 15:36, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
Yay, thanks a WHOLE LOT for that! That was a huge amount of work and I am unbelievably grateful to you for completing that! We can now focus on polishing our articles on Stockholm and give it a full speed ahead, as I believe we still have quite a bit to do - I will work on it in the coming weeks and I hope you will find time to do so too, as I guess we are close to having a really good collection of articles on the city and county we could then nominate for DotM!
I also believe that Svealand needs a new map - I tried to create one but have failed miserably. We should also look into the links to Uppland and replace them with Uppsala County or Stockholm County wherever applicable. Same for Södermanland - it would be good to browse and see if any of those shouldn't point to Stockholm County.
Again, brilliant work - tack sa mycket! PrinceGloria (talk) 03:46, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Thanks to you too! I saw you already started to breadcrumbs for Uppsala county municipalities. Content from the sub level articles would need to be placed into the municipalities. Especially Roslagen is a bit challenging, some stuff there has to go into the Archipelago and elsewhere etc. I will have a look at it. Also, as per our discussion in Talk:Sweden division Svealand and Norrland and Stockholm County need maps, you said Sweden's map needs roads (or does it?). Geocoordinates for POIs in all ~20 articles. Then banners for travel topics, a bunch of articles I planned to translate and finally the football world cup to watch. ϒpsilon (talk) 04:46, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Well, I have the obvious advantage of not being the slightest interested in the World Cup, but then with RL/work stuff to do. At any rate, I think the map of Stockholm County that I made could work for a while, if I can beat my own drum here. I will try to fix the whole mess resulting from the erstwhile split of Uppland in due course, if you could find a minute to afford Svealand a new map ove the coming weeks, that would be just brilliant.
As regards what the maps need, I'd say it is always good to include the major roads (at least those E-numbered) and major railway lines (the ones that long-distance trains use) for people to figure out how they can get in/around. Then come major railway stations, airports and major passenger ferry ports. One thing I would love for mapmakers to be mindful of is the placement of labels - it is best to make sure that the labels do not fall on too much detail, different colour backgrounds or backgrounds in a very similar colour as the lettering etc. as they can be hard to read. I think it is sometimes better to offset the label a little and even add an arrow to make sure what it labels than to put it right next to the POI or in the middle of the region and make it unlegible. PrinceGloria (talk) 05:03, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Final preparations for DotM[edit]

As many know, the summer month slots for featured articles fill up well in advance. It would therefore be good to put up Stockholm for nomination during the autumn to make sure it gets on the main page sometime during next summer. The thing is that I notice that there are still things especially with the districts to work on to ensure Stockholm doesn't get torpedoed down into the slush pile a fourth time.

The many short district articles have now been merged to form fewer but more useful ones. That's good.

  • 1. They are all at usable status now, but some of them could still benefit from some expansion.
  • 2. However the biggest single problem with Stockholm's listings is that quite a couple of them contain only the name of the establishment and the coordinates. Those should at the very least get a street address and if not entirely impossible a description of even one sentence. Yes Done
  • 3. In addition, rates/prices, opening hours plus other contact information such as phone or e-mail would certainly benefit people using our articles. Yes Done?
  • 4. Also, Eat and Sleep sections should preferably be divided into Budget/Mid range/Splurge in the cases they aren't already. Yes Done
  • 5. The br tags in the listings are likely not mos-compliant, at least I've never seen listing after listing formatted that way in any other article. Yes Done
  • 6. Old style external links are still to be seen here and there including in Stockholm's main article Yes Done (in districts this is often found in conjunction with not yet listingfied POIs). Yes Done
  • 7. Last but not least closed listings have to be removed and the most important details such as public transport fares have to be updated. Though this can be saved until a month or two before the article goes live, otherwise it will still have to be done then to make sure the article is up to date.

Given the comments about this article last year it will probably come under extra scrutiny once it's up on the nomination page again, wherefore I think it'd be good to fix the things above first. No need to drop everything else and start editing right this minute, though, but I'd still like to have this done in a month or so and would appreciate a lot if someone would have time to help out. As a positive side note, I think a couple of the central districts are (after said polishing) extensive enough to be upgraded to guide status themselves. ϒpsilon (talk) 15:35, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Also, as I said in the nomination, the article has a horrifying number of bullet points, which makes the article look saw-edged. I don't even know where to start... ϒpsilon (talk) 18:06, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Dead links[edit]

To make Stockholm ready for DotM in a month and a half, I'm removing dead links which there seem to be quite many of (I've only finished Get around so far). In addition I think the district articles could benefit from the same (as well as removing attractions and businesses that have closed). It's sort of tedious so some help would be appreciated. ϒpsilon (talk) 17:05, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Done with the article, almost. I'm not really in the mood for going through the embassies or start with the districts right now. But a look at my edits from yesterday and tonight reveals that there were something wrong with at least one link out of three, which IMO is alarming. ϒpsilon (talk) 17:38, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

I have heard "round trip" and "return" but I have never heard "two way" before[edit]

In the discussion of prices of the Arlanda Express (which was recently edited, hence me noticing this) there is talk of "two way" tickets. Now knowing what a "one way" ticket is of course makes it easy to guess what is meant, but which dialect of English (if any) uses this wording? Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:35, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

The paradox effects of post-glacial rebound[edit]

I once went to Stockholm and did a guided tour and was told that post glacial rebound leads to Stockholm slowly but surely rising out of the water, which paradoxically leads to some old houses sinking. Apparently they were built upon wooden pillars, which survive being in water for long times but not getting dry after having been in water for a long time. Hence the pillars being lifted out of the water leads to them rotting and then the houses built upon them sinking. Is this true? If so, should this be mentioned in some infobox or other? Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:19, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

As a Stockholm native, I have never heard that. Do you know any sources? /Yvwv (talk) 15:37, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
Other than that city tour I took in ca. 2009, no. It sounded plausible to me at the time (especially given the huge efforts that were necessary to dry the Vasa without it crumbling to dust), but it may well be BS. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:42, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
Will try to look it up. /Yvwv (talk) 15:46, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
Thank you. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:59, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
The problem with rotting wooden pillars is well-known, with e.g. the centre of Turku on the other side of Åland having had most of them replaced in the last decades, at huge expenses. At least here a bigger problem than the land rising, is that rainwater nowadays is lead away; asphalt and concrete give little chances for the soil to absorb the water. --LPfi (talk) 22:07, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
Though I have heard the strangest things about the architecture of Stockholm, I have yet to get a confirmation of the statement above. /Yvwv (talk) 17:32, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_VpmYeTA3U Found a relevant video. The groundwater level is sinking relative to ground level, because of the post-glacial rebound, as well as tunneling. /Yvwv (talk) 18:05, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Hagastaden[edit]

Hagastaden is a neighborhood under construction, with a hotel and some restaurants opened so far, as well as the (in)famous hospital. IMO it should be described in the Stockholm/Vasastan article for practical reasons, though it is mostly in Solna. We already have a precedent to disregard municipal borders. /Yvwv (talk) 17:09, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

No problems, if it's the most logical from the traveler's (and frequently local's) point of view. Administrative borders can often be meaningless, confusing and outright silly from the traveler's point of view, e.g. cutting diagonally through blocks. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:54, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

The inner city is made up of 14 islands[edit]

The intro says "The inner city is made up of 14 islands across Lake Mälaren and three streams". Norrmalm is part of the inner city but I am having trouble figuring out what island it is on (excepting Skeppsholmen). I'm starting to wonder if the inner city is partly on the mainland, rather than just on 14 islands. Nurg (talk) 03:55, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Wikimania Travel Guide[edit]

Swept in from the pub

The Wikimania 2019 in Stockholm has its own Travel guide. Shouldn't it at least link to ours (which is )? I do not know whether the project chose to have their own to briefly counted the most important things for Wikimania visitors without overwhelming them or whether the one responsible for the information simply was ignorant of Wikivoyage. Either way I find it quite bad. I added a hat note link, but also noticed that finding the university campus (where I suppose Wikimania is going to be held) is difficult using our guides: the location of the university is not mentioned in Stockholm and just in passing in Stockholm/Östermalm. Although not a prime destination for visitors in general, one could suspect it is for a non-trivial fraction, at least in August this year. Should something more be done? --LPfi (talk) 18:28, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

LPfi - I find it hard to believe that the author of this document "simply was ignorant of Wikivoyage" given that they blatantly plagiarized much of our Stockholm article, including large sections of the lede and the pagebanner. Since travel guides are our wheelhouse, common courtesy and the collegial spirit of the wiki movement dictate that the author should have allowed us to host the article, or brought someone from Wikivoyage on board to help create it, or at the very least notified us of its existence. The fact that none of those things happened is a slap in the face to our community. (Not to mention the copyvio.) Whoever is responsible for this needs to be taken to task in no uncertain terms.
Frankly, there's a growing list of bones I have to pick with the WMF about the way they've managed our project since the fork. The fact that the Signpost pointedly refused to retract Tony's hit piece about our sex tourism policy, and the WMF's still-pending proposal to rename themselves the "Wikipedia Foundation" as some sort of cockamamie new branding initiative, thereby relegating the sister projects to second-class-citizen status, are two other affronts.
-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:29, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
Currently there's a link at the top linking to the Wikivoyage version. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:35, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
Oh, checked the edit history and the link was added by LPfi. Thanks for doing that. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:36, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
I doubt anything about this was intended as a snub. The page did already include a link to Wikivoyage lower down before LPfi added another one. I suggest we plunge forward and improve the guide, and next year we can reach out in a friendly way to whoever is running the 2020 convention and offer our expertise. (As a side note, I imagine the WMF has no editorial control over the Signpost, which is an internal newsletter run by volunteer Wikipedia editors.) —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:35, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
Since that page also uses CC-BY-SA 3.0 licensing, we can import any additions added to that travel guide back into our page. OhanaUnitedTalk page 01:24, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
I don't think it was an intentional snub, but it was certainly inconsiderate and counter to the wiki spirit, and the fact that the author was evidently aware of us yet it never entered his or her head that we might be worthy of hosting or at least helping out with the project certainly goes to show the disregard for Wikivoyage and other small wikis that pervades the WMF. Forgive me for my vehemence, but I still can't get past the fact that we now have to plead with the WMF brass for our very identity, lest we be forcibly rechristened "Wikipedia Travel" or some such abomination, which offends me at a visceral level. The WMF likes to claim that all the wikis under their umbrella are equal, editor counts and activity levels notwithstanding, but I'm seeing mounting evidence that those claims don't go far beyond lip service. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:54, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
I saw a similar issue with Wikimedia hackaton in Prague. -- andree.sk(talk) 12:25, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
Weird, because we've in the past hosted travel guides for Wikimania a few times before: https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimania_2014_London_Guidebook&oldid=2739043 , Past_events/Wikimania_2018_Cape_Town_Guidebook, and I could swear there was something for the event in Esino Lario too. --Ypsilon (talk) 15:49, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
@Andree.sk: As a co-author of mw:Wikimedia Hackathon 2019/Travel I admit I took most of the "Visa" section from the previous year at mw:Wikimedia Hackathon 2018/Travel without further investigating and hence trusting people when it comes to license and attribution, but apart from that I'm curious where exactly you see "a similar issue"? --Malyacko (talk) 09:16, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
BTW in Recent changes I noticed one user has started a travel guide for the Stockholm Wikimania, but so far it's only in his user space: User:Julle/Wikimania 2019 --Ypsilon (talk) 13:15, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
It looks good, though. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:22, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
I must admit I never had any plans to move it out of my user space since it's fairly personal: my recommendations for how to get to the city centre from the airport based on which bus I tend to take, where to go after/before Wikimania based on my personal preferences and so on. With that said, it's as freely licensed as everything else here. /Julle (talk) 21:46, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
I didn't want to suggest copyright problem or whatever, just the fact that the contents are a poor man's version of what we at WV already have. Of course, if it's by intention... -- andree.sk(talk) 19:55, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
@Andree.sk: I don't see where the WV version covers how to get to the Hackathon 2019 venue. Now does that make the WV page "a poor man's version" by your definition? In any case, you are free to improve wiki pages if you think that something should get improved, whether that's on wikivoyage.org or mediawiki.org. --Malyacko (talk) 10:25, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Wikimania Travel Guide #2[edit]

Swept in from the pub

Hi everybody!

I'd like to start by apologizing for not appropriately including the WikiVoyage community in the work with the Wikimania Travel Guide, and for not correctly attributing the page lede. There's no other reason than lack of time from my side. That being said, I would love discussing with you 1) how we can improve the Wikimania Travel Guide cooperatively, with you feeling ownership over it with your competence and interest, and 2) whether it should be hosted on the Wikimania Wiki or on this wiki. I think there is a good reason for creating a specific Wikimania Travel Guide, of the simple reason that it includes pieces of information that will be specific for Wikimania and not of general interest for any Stockholm visitor. But whether it should be hosted on the Wikimania Wiki or here and linked from the Wikimania wiki is not necessarily given. Also note that Wikimania 2019 is for the first time using a wiki that will be reused, so there is the possibility of setting a standard in this case. Eric Luth (WMSE) (talk) 12:30, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for posting here. In the past, Wikimania Travel Guides have been posted here at Wikivoyage. Has that created any problems that could be remedied by publishing that guide in another Wiki? Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:45, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
Sometimes, Wikimania will benefit from specific contents. See Past events/Wikimania 2018 Cape Town Guidebook, and compare that against the regular article for Esino Lario, which was basically written for Wikimania. We seem to be able to accomodate both. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:46, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
Last year we hosted Past events/Wikimania 2018 Cape Town Guidebook. There was also some information on wm2018:Orientation, which did have some duplication, but focussed on what was at the Wikimania venue. Wikimania organisers are probably best placed to give the venue specific information, as they will know what floor the coffee table will be on. On the other hand a guidebook here can cover the more general information about what is nearby in the city, and how to get to the city, and these can more easily draw on our regular pages for the area. AlasdairW (talk) 20:37, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
I see that @Julle: is preparing a travel guide on this wiki with more specific information on pubs, restaurants etc. I think that is great to host here. My take would be that the very Wikimania-specific information should be hosted on the Wikimania Wiki, partly because it should be easy to find for all attendees, partly because it will be very specific for one certain conference and not of much general interest. But I'm not impossible to convince of otherwise. Eric Luth (WMSE) (talk) 10:59, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
I started preparing that to have a place to give very personal recommendations ("I'd recommend ..."), but if people see other use for it, it's available for that as well of course. /Julle (talk) 13:40, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Taxi Companies[edit]

Dear Wiki Voyage Community, I'd like to add a Taxijakt company in the By Taxi section. I understand that promotion is not possible - at the beginning I've added our listing with a link (sorry for that) but now I'm adding it in the same scheme as other companies do - include only name of the company and phone number (Taxijakt, +46 8 35 00 00). We are one of the biggest taxi companies operating in Stockholm. I believe that adding our listing won't be against the rules and might add value for the customers.‎ —The preceding comment was added by Maciej.taxijakt (talkcontribs)

I suppose there is nothing wrong with the first format (Taxijakt, +46 8 35 00 00), other than it and the other listings could use {{phone}}, allowing call-by-click. The web page explains what kind of company Taxijakt is, which is good (I don't know why there aren't links for the others). I don't know Stockholm taxis, but the problem I see is that Taxijakt seems to be an aggregator, not a proper taxi company. I cannot judge whether it should be listed anyhow. Yvwv, who reverted the first instance, is from Sweden and might want to comment his rollback. I ping also Ibaman, who reverted the second instance. --LPfi (talk) 07:28, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
I am not sure about Wikivoyage's policy for when to include aggregators in city pages. They could be listed if they are well established option for individual companies. /Yvwv (talk) 22:33, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
If you don't mind I will be happy to add our listing to the paragraph then. We are not only an aggregator - we do also have our own cars in the fleet. Our website and call centre are available in English and provide easy and straightforward way for the tourists to order the taxi. I believe it won't harm the user experience. /Ibaman LPfi Yvwv —The preceding comment was added by Maciej.taxijakt (talkcontribs)
If the company is among the biggest and there is no specific reason to remove it, re-adding it is OK. Unless somebody gives a reason not to list it, I suppose the original reverts were just due to too hasty conclusions. Such happens, as there is quite a lot of touting to revert. --LPfi (talk) 15:07, 15 October 2019 (UTC)