Talk:Japan

Archived discussions Talk:Japan/Archive 2003-2012 Talk:Japan/Archive 2013-2018

Formatting and language conventions For articles about Japan, please use the 24-hour clock to show times, e.g. 09:00-12:00 and 18:00-00:00. Please show prices in this format: ¥100 and not JPY 100, 100 yen or 100円. Please use American spelling (color, labor, traveled, realize, center, analog, program).

Article Status of Prefectural Capitals

A list of the status of each of the prefectural capitals.

Prefecture	City	To do
Hokkaido	Sapporo (usable)
Aomori Prefecture	Aomori (usable)
Akita Prefecture	Akita (usable)
Iwate Prefecture	Morioka (usable)
Yamagata Prefecture	Yamagata (guide)
Miyagi Prefecture	Sendai (guide)
Fukushima Prefecture	Fukushima (usable)
Gunma Prefecture	Maebashi (usable)
Tochigi Prefecture	Utsunomiya (usable)
Ibaraki Prefecture	Mito (usable)
Chiba Prefecture	Chiba (usable)
Saitama Prefecture	Saitama (usable)
Tokyo Prefecture	Tokyo (usable)
Kanagawa Prefecture	Yokohama (usable)
Niigata Prefecture	Niigata (usable)
Nagano Prefecture	Nagano (usable)
Yamanashi Prefecture	Kofu (usable)
Shizuoka Prefecture	Shizuoka (usable)
Aichi Prefecture	Nagoya (Guide)
Gifu Prefecture	Gifu (usable)
Toyama Prefecture	Toyama (usable)
Ishikawa	Kanazawa (Guide)
Fukui Prefecture	Fukui (usable)
Shiga Prefecture	Otsu (usable)
Mie Prefecture	Tsu (Usable)
Wakayama Prefecture	Wakayama (Usable)
Nara Prefecture	Nara (Guide)
Kyoto Prefecture	Kyoto (Guide)
Osaka Prefecture	Osaka (Usable)
Hyogo Prefecture	Kobe (Guide)
Okayama Prefecture	Okayama (Star)
Hiroshima Prefecture	Hiroshima (Star)
Tottori Prefecture	Tottori (Guide)
Shimane Prefecture	Matsue (Guide)
Yamaguchi Prefecture	Yamaguchi (Usable)
Kagawa Prefecture	Takamatsu (Usable)
Tokushima Prefecture	Tokushima (Usable)
Kochi Prefecture	Kochi (Guide)
Ehime Prefecture	Matsuyama (Guide)
Fukuoka Prefecture	Fukuoka (Guide)
Saga Prefecture	Saga (Usable)
Nagasaki Prefecture	Nagasaki (Usable)
Oita Prefecture	Oita (Usable)
Kumamoto Prefecture	Kumamoto (Guide)
Miyazaki Prefecture	Miyazaki (Usable)
Kagoshima Prefecture	Kagoshima (Usable)
Okinawa Prefecture	Naha (Usable)

ChubbyWimbus (talk) 14:34, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Time and date formatting

Our Japan articles take a scattered approach to time formatting, mixing 12-hour and 24-hour clock formats within articles, and sometimes within listings. It would be easier for readers to follow if we used one format consistently across our Japan articles. On my recent visit there, I observed both formats being used commonly, but the 24-hour format being used about 75% of the time, and the 12-hour format the rest. I propose to adopt the 24-hour clock as the standard for Japan articles. Comments? Ground Zero (talk) 21:07, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

I wouldn't want to be the one to reformat all the listings (perhaps we can automate it?) but I have to agree. While Japan uses both formats, 24-hour format is definitely more common for listing business hours, particularly when writing in Japanese. If we want to pick one format for consistency in our Japan articles, it should be 24-hour format. --Bigpeteb (talk) 21:55, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

I have made a proposal related to this discussion at Wikivoyage_talk:Time_and_date_formats#Keeping_track_of_which_clock_to_use_in_each_country. Comments welcome. Ground Zero (talk) 13:32, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Length of the article

This article is now 362,000 bytes long, which is an increase from 348,000 bytes since the beginning of the year. By comparison, the United States of America is 248,000 bytes, China is 242,000 bytes, and Russia is 171,000 bytes. These three countries are all considerably larger than Japan by area and by population.

This sort of growth in an article results from the common tendency putting everything that is important or interesting about a country in the country-level article. The result, though, is a long, unwieldy article in which it is difficult for readers to find the key information they need. Forget about printing it out.

The solution to this, which has worked well for the USA and China articles, is to move the more detailed information to branch articles, leaving behind summaries and links that take interested readers to the more in-depth articles about a subject.

Here are articles that could be created into order to bring this article more in line with those of other countries and more it easier to read and use:

• Driving in Japan
• Arts in Japan
• Shopping in Japan
• Food and drink in Japan
• Public baths in Japan -- I think this would be useful as a separate, expanded article about onsens and sentos.

Of course, articles usually benefit for a general trimming to tighten up parts that may be wordy or overly detsils.

Any other suggestions? Ground Zero (talk) 18:37, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Agreed, though I think the Understand section is especially long here. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 14:32, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Agree with the general idea, haven't looked closely at the details. We already do have Japanese cuisine, and most of the "Eat" and "Drink" sections could be incorporated into that article leaving a summary behind here. (Along the way, we might be able to get Japanese cuisine up to guide status and FTT!) It might also make sense to have a travel topic article about ryokan, I'm not sure. I urge care in paring down the article—though long, it is well written and has a lot of useful information. I found it very helpful in getting my bearings when planning a trip to Japan last year.

The "Connect" section currently has a lot of intricate detail—I wonder if that could be condensed and simplified. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:32, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

I'm happy to cut down the article in the same way that we have cut down the United States of America and China articles. I agree in principle that the Japan article should not be longer than either of those articles since Japan is much smaller in both land area and population. I think a Driving in Japan article will be useful to have. We already have a Japanese cuisine article, so some of the information about food can go in there. The dog2 (talk) 19:42, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Progress so far

In the three weeks after I started this discussion thread, the byte count climbed from 362,000 to 364,000. I have now managed to to cut the size of the article down to about 283,000, which means that the 61st largest country by land mass, and the 11th largest country by population, still has the longest Wikivoyage article of any country, by a sizeable margin. this does a great disservice to such an amazing country for travellers. We can do a better job of explaining this country to travellers if we move away from the notion that we want to put everything there is to know about Japan into one long, meandering wordy article. A concisely-written, well-organized, tight article will be of more use to travellers than what we have now.

In moving text to topic articles, I found the following:

• sections where the text had been copied word-for-word between the two articles -- why is that helpful? It just wastes the time of the reader who is reading both articles;
• topics where the country article provided much o more in-depth and extensive coverage of the topic than the topic article did
• lots of text in the country article that will be relevant only to a very niche group of travellers -- moving this to a topic article makes the article better for the mass of readers, while maintaining useful information for the niche group.

I will start going through section by section to reduce repetition, reduce wordiness, and remove stuff that isn't really relevant to travellers. Questions to ponder:

1. ✓ I think that we need to ask ourselves whether the Japan article should provide so very much detail about ATMs. It used to be that getting money was a big hassle. (Back when only 7-11 and Japan Post ATMs worked, I rescued an American who told me he was going to go home early because he was running out of money.) Now that getting money is much easier, do we need all of this tedious detail?
2. ✓ Why do we have contact information for boat companies in the Get in section? Are many travellers getting in by boat? Shouldn't these details be in the port city articles?
3. ✓ Do we need a list of the names of the regional smart cards? Or is it enough to have those in the Rail travel article?
4. ✓ Can we move the map and list of castle to a Japanese castles article that can be fleshed out with more details?
5. ✓ Should the Spiritual sites section get into history so much, or focus on the sites? It seems strange that the Christian sites section is the longest.
6. Should ryokans be split out into their own topic, which could include a list of good ryokans around the country?
7. ✓ Can we limit the advice on earthquakes to that which is specific to Japan, and refer readers to the Earthquakes article for the general advice?
8. ✓ Can we move the detailed explanation on business cards in Respect to Working in Japan, and leave just the key points here?
9. The gianormous section on mobile/cell phones must surely be split out into a topic article, e.g. Mobile phones in Japan again leaving the key points here, and directing interested readers to the topic article.

In the work that I have done so far, I've demonstrated that moving detail to a topic article never means losing information, or leaving the reader without the key points in this article.

I think it's great that so many people want to share information about travelling to this amazing country, but by putting everything in one place. I feel that we are loving the article to death. Ground Zero (talk) 01:06, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

To answer your questions:

1. I usually bring enough cash to cover my stay in Japan, so I can't answer this one.

2. A workable option is to mention what the port cities are, and list the companies in the port cities.

3. I think this should stay on the main page since it is not only used on trains. You can use them on buses too, and often also to make payments in convenience stores.

4. We already have a Castles article. We can probably move some of the information there for now. We can create a separate article for Japanese castles if the section there gets too long.

5. I agree that we should focus on the sites, and put more of the history in the respective regional/city articles.

6. I am open to splitting of ryokans into a separate topic.

7. I will agree with your position on that.

8. That works for me too.

9. We can probably cut all that down to be in line with our other country articles. We don't need to list all mobile phone operators. Just the major ones.

The dog2 (talk) 01:13, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

I mostly agree with these suggestions; most of this information can be moved elsewhere and/or trimmed. A few additional thoughts:

ATMs -- Agreed, getting money is much simpler than it used to be. However, it seems it's still a little complex for some users (i.e. UnionPay). Seeing as the English WV is the largest one by far, I think it's reasonable to retain information for international readers who might translate this article into their own language. We can greatly simplify the section on ATMs, but I'd try not to remove too much information that's still useful to a huge number of people (unless a Google search shows that it's easy to get the same info on what to do if you're a UnionPay user... but then, why rely on other travel guides when we are a travel guide?).

Rail smart cards -- That list had been reduced to an inline list or removed completely at some point, but then it was added back in. I would at least mention Suica and Pasmo, and maybe also Icoca and Pitapa, but the rest can be removed.

Ryokan -- Although that subsection is long, I don't think there's much more to say, and it would be a very short article if it was separate. As for listing ryokan, no way. There are probably thousands of ryokan across the country, and frankly, most of them are good. I don't think there are any that stand out enough to warrant a mention at the country level. Even if it were a separate article, I don't see how a list of "places with ryokan" would be feasible.

Bigpeteb (talk) 18:50, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

I think it's worthwhile though to mention the original castles, being that there's only 12 in the entire country. A lot of visitors seem to assume they're all authentic and report disappointment at how "modern and commercial" they are because they went to a reconstruction. It's well worth planning a trip partially around visiting one or more authentic castles. I think the map could be removed, though. As for the history in the Christian sites section of "See", I wrote it with the sites in mind. None of the history there is given without an association to an actual place you can visit and those make up the bulk of the highlights of Christian tourist sites in Japan. While you say it's strange that it's the longest section, it is actually precisely because there are less sites that makes it easier to organize them (relative historical chronology in this case) and present them. That's a much more daunting task for Buddhism and would certainly overwhelm the article. The "Shinto" section is awful, but I was too tired to give it the attention it deserved. The history is of course also what makes those Christian sites noteworthy. I'd hate to see it all whittled down to "Nagasaki has a lot of churches." or just listing places like the "Shinto" section with almost nothing regarding why you should visit. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 11:03, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

With regard to castles, I think that we should also list Nijo Castle in Kyoto in addition to the 12 original ones. Although Nijo Castle no longer has its keep, the palace buildings within the castle are authentic, and it is known for its "nightingale floors" that are designed to squeak so the Shogun can be warned of any potential assassins. I wouldn't mind giving Shuri Castle a mention either, since it is fairly unique. Although it is a reconstruction, it is the only example of a Ryukyuan castle that you can visit as a tourist, and is a distinct style from a Japanese castle. The dog2 (talk) 15:54, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

The list of 12 is not our own original list, though. It's a well-known/established list of Japan's "authentic" castles. Nijo Castle is mentioned in the following "reconstructions and ruins" section along with other castles that have authentic structures remaining that are not the donjon. Nijo Castle could possibly be moved up to the blurb about what constitutes the list of 12, but I don't think we should add it to the list itself. Shuri Castle is also in the reconstructions section and it definitely belongs with other reconstructions. It would be a flat-out lie for us to list it as authentic. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 10:18, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

I wasn't saying that they should be listed as original castles. I was just saying that they should be mentioned, as they are now. Even if we decide to trim the section, I think we should keep the mention of those two. The dog2 (talk) 14:27, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

@Ground Zero: I'm not convinced about moving some of the banking info to Working in Japan. Some of it is also useful to students, which is "Learn" not "Work". A minor complaint, but it strikes me as a bit incongruous to lump all info about living long-term in Japan under "Working". --Bigpeteb (talk) 17:26, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

I see your point, but I've literally never heard of a short-term visitor setting up a bank account in a country they are visiting. Do banks anywhere allow this? I doubt that we have enough material to warrant a "Studying in Japan" article, but what about expanding "Working in..." to Working and studying in Japan? This article really should cover the most important things for visitors to Japan, and not everything someone would want to know about Japan? Ground Zero (talk) 17:57, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

I'd support expanding it to Working and studying in Japan; that seems like it would sufficiently cover a range of topics relevant to long-term or very-frequent visitors. As for opening a bank account, I admit, I don't know much about it but maybe we need a more international perspective. I have no idea if this is common in other countries, e.g. as a way to avoid high transaction fees when you visit a country often. I kind of assumed the information had been added here for a reason (i.e. because to some people, opening a bank account even for short-term travel would be a natural thing to consider doing), but maybe that's not the case and it can be removed. --Bigpeteb (talk) 18:36, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Done. Ground Zero (talk) 01:51, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

With regards to short-term visitors setting up banks accounts, I've done so in Hong Kong before. And if you're a business traveller who travels to that destination regularly, it is not inconceivable that you will want to do so. The dog2 (talk) 18:58, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Christian sites in Japan

I understand the point about including history to explain the relevance of the sites, but I am wondering if Christian sites in Japan are more of a niche interest better suited to a topic article than to taking up a lot of space in the country article.

A look at the history of this article shows how it has grown like topsy as more and more detail has been added. The beauty of an online guide is that we have room for details and niche topics that paper guides would never be able to include, but we still should try to focus the country article on being a usable resource got general travellers. I've been working hard to trim this down to a more manageable size, but we are already seeing things being added back in. I have yet to see a reason why the Japan article should be so much bigger than any other country article. Ground Zero (talk) 17:57, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

An alternative I can suggest is moving much to that information to the Christianity article. The dog2 (talk) 18:59, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Looking at the Christianity article, a Japan section doesn't seem to fit, so if the section really is too long, I guess the new article would be a better solution. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 13:20, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Done. The new article provides more detail than the (now summarized) section of this article did, and some more pictures. I think it will be more useful for those interested in this part of the country's history. A dynamic map would be a useful thing to add, if someone has those skills. Ground Zero (talk) 20:17, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Clever me: I figured out how to add a map. Ground Zero (talk) 12:31, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

I support your work, but I think an explanation for Japan is that it has its own distinct culture, resulting in a lot of important information for visiting travelers. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:14, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

It's a decent start-up article! Thanks, Ground Zero ChubbyWimbus (talk) 13:55, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. A lot of countries have distinct cultures, and many are more diverse and complex than Japan. The question is whether it is more useful to travellers to have one big article, or to split out topics into seperate, more detailed articles, like the Christian sites in Japan article. I plan to work on a Japanese castles article that will provide more detail, a longer list of castles including Shuri Castle and other reconstructions. Ground Zero (talk) 18:07, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

ATMs

Would there be any objection to moving the detailed list of banks and what cards their machines accept and what the fees are to Shopping in Japan and keeping a summary of key points here? Ground Zero (talk) 15:01, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

What if we created a topic article called Banks in Japan or Banking in Japan, or something of that nature? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:21, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

I think it would fit well into the Shopping article and maybe help keep it focused on information for travelers without creeping out of scope. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 15:40, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Mobile payments

Stuff like this is interesting, but not relevant to foreign visitors, so maybe it doesn't belong in an article that is too long and full of details:

"Japan has also been a leader in mobile phone payments. Osaifu Keitai (おサイフケータイ) is a service that means "Mobile Wallet" and arrived long before the advent of Apple Pay, Google Pay and the like. The service is not compatible with foreign mobile phones."

Ground Zero (talk) 15:01, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

It's relevant to anyone who is staying in Japan long-term or visits often, and might want to use the service. That's certainly in scope for WV. But more generally, I think it's useful to explain that there are two systems for mobile payments in Japan: osaifu keitai and NFC. Most visitors will be able to use one, but not the other. Surely we'd be remiss not to explain that, although maybe the explanation can be shortened and improved.

(BTW, I'm actually thinking of removing (or at least shortening) the blurb about registering a Suica card on an iPhone because it's actually a huge pain in the ass: you have to set your phone's region to Japan, meaning your whole phone will be in Japanese, and it actually transfers your Suica card to your phone, making your phone the only way of using your card.) --Bigpeteb (talk) 20:29, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Instead of removing the information, we can move it. Since it is useful for a smaller group of our readers, putting it in the Shopping in Japan article (with a note in Japan indicating where to find the information), would be of benefit to the larger group of short-term visitors reading the main article. It's too "in the weeds" for most readers. Ground Zero (talk) 19:04, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Dynamic map for Japan not working

Swept in from the pub

Normally, boundaries on a dynamic map between regions should show a thick black line, but on the map of Japan, these lines are not showing. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:19, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

It's because the mapshape-s there have parameter "stroke-opacity=0.1"... -- andree.sk(talk) 19:40, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Maybe. I'll take another look. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:07, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

All I can see is, under the "Cities" section, {{Mapshapes|Q164338}}. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:08, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Warning Box

The storm referenced in the warning box has already passed through. Does it still need to be kept up? JRHorse (talk) 12:25, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Nope. Gone! ChubbyWimbus (talk) 14:20, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

I also just deleted the one I added to Tokyo a few days back. Though if the storm and floods has put something travel-relevant out of service for some longer period, that could merit a cautionbox. Ypsilon (talk) 14:35, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

That sounds fair. Definitely this thing has been getting more attention now. And I've been seeing more reports of xenophobia worldwide, and not just in Japan. The dog2 (talk) 17:35, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Caution box - Super Typhoon Hagibis

Most areas and public transport have recovered from the typhoon, with the notable exception of Hakone and - until the end of the month at least - the line that connects Tokyo with Matsumoto. The Hokuriku Shinkansen will restore 80-90 percent of service on 25 September. Was wondering if the caution box should now go from the main Japan article. JRHorse (talk) 12:21, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Maybe move it to the Get Around section, since most (although not all) of the remaining warnings are about public transit disruptions? --Bigpeteb (talk) 17:49, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Ok the caution box has been moved and updated to reflect the travel options that seem to have the most impact now (specifically Hakone and the train line that runs from Shinjuku to Matsumoto). JRHorse (talk) 03:46, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

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Wayfinding in Japanese cities

@BigPeteB: the issue I was trying to address with my recent edits was this paragraph, which I find to be very confusing:

"Most roads have no name; instead, street blocks are numbered, which are grouped into numbered districts (丁目 chōme), and then into neighborhoods, cities, and prefectures. Addresses are written in order from largest to smallest; an example address written as 名駅4丁目5-6 or 名駅4-5-6 would be the neighborhood of Meieki (名駅), district 4, block 5, house 6. (Addresses are usually written in English as "Meieki 4-5-6" or "4-5-6 Meieki", although the post office recommends the confusing "5-6 Meieki 4-chome".) Additional numbers may be appended for the floor or room number."

The problem I have with it is the ordering: it goes from block to district to neighbourhood to city, which is not how Japanese addresses work, and it isn't how people find places. If you're on the block, you've already found your way through the district, neighbourhood and city. Let's turn it around to follow the order in which people will find their way there:

"Most roads have no name; instead, cities are divided into neighborhoods with names, which are sub-divided into numbered districts (丁目 chōme), which are sub-divided into street blocks, which are also numbered. Addresses are written in order from largest to smallest; an example address written as 名駅4丁目5-6 or 名駅4-5-6 would be the neighborhood of Meieki (名駅), district 4, block 5, house 6. (Addresses are usually written in English as "Meieki 4-5-6" or "4-5-6 Meieki", although the post office recommends the confusing "5-6 Meieki 4-chome".) Additional numbers may be appended for the floor or room number."

As far as "The advice to just wander around blindly hoping to find a place", that is how I figured out how Japanese addresses work after 16 hours of travel from Queenstown NZ to Osaka, trying to find an Airbnb without a decent map or GPS at 11pm. In the fricking rain. But I won't insist on including that advice. Ground Zero (talk) 15:21, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

I think I wrote most of that original text, so I feel comfortable defending it. :-) I was trying to convey what this video explains, but even more concisely if possible: the difference between the Western system (streets have names, and blocks are the empty spaces between streets) and the Japanese system (blocks have names/numbers, and streets are the empty spaces between blocks), and that Japanese addresses are more hierarchical (Western addresses jump from city directly to road to house; the road could be anywhere in the city, and the house number could be anywhere along the road).

You make a great point about the order being backwards! I never thought about it before, but now that you point it out I agree it's a confusing way to explain it. I think we can reverse it, play with the phrasing a little, and that will improve things.

While wandering around blindly can work sometimes, it's by no means guaranteed: we already point out that blocks and districts are often not numbered sequentially, so if you're in block or district 3 looking for 4, you have no idea which way to go, and you won't necessarily find it by circling the block/district. (Much like a telephone/numeric keypad, 3 is not adjacent to 4!) Even if you knew which way to go, you could be as much as 1km off from where you're supposed to be; if you don't know which way to go, how many kilometers might you walk before you happen to find your destination? We have much better advice already in the article: use the maps in train stations, or on your phone, or go to a police box. Perhaps some bold text and/or breaking those into bullet points will improve the readability and draw attention to it. My hope is that if we start with an easy-to-understand explanation of the address system and how to navigate it, we can spare other travelers from the trouble you went through. :-D --Bigpeteb (talk) 18:41, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Coronavirus

Do we really need a warning box about the Coronavirus in Japan at this point? Aside from the cruise ship there does not seem to be much of an outbreak compared to China. JRHorse (talk) 13:21, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

I have changed the warning box to a caution box. While this is a matter of some concern at the moment in the country, Japan's issues are nowhere close to what China is facing right now. Other governments have not raised travel advisories for people visiting Japan to a level of "do not travel" or "reconsider travel" as is the case with China at the time of writing. Of course if the situation becomes more urgent then that would likely call for the warning box. JRHorse (talk) 01:54, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Good idea. But let's not try to provide running updates. If the situation changes dramatically, we can upgrade this to a warning box again. Ground Zero (talk) 06:07, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

That's fair enough. Thanks! JRHorse (talk) 01:37, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Should there be a framework for informing about this when it comes to pages on other countries, or does such a framework already exist? Italy for example has a warning box at the current moment. JRHorse (talk) 01:43, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

I agree regarding a framework for warning box vs caution box. Maybe if the majority of travel advisories are level 3 (reconsider travel/avoid non-essential travel) or higher? I see for China we're using Australia, New Zealand, US, UK, and Canada. So if 3 out of 5 countries have travel advisories that go to level 3, then warning box. If lower, then caution box? Thuegh (talk) 03:03, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

I concur that the threshold for a warning box should be if a "do not travel" or "avoid nonessential travel" advisory is issued. I think if even one of the major international powers declares such an advisory, then that would certainly carry a lot of weight. JRHorse (talk) 03:24, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Again, do we really need a warning box about the Coronavirus in Japan? There are no urgent travel advisories to Japan; the US has not raised its threat level in the last week. JRHorse (talk) 12:33, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree with the suggested threshold as a rough rule of thumb. Based on that, it seems like the box in this article should still be a cautionbox. Though maybe the state of emergency in Hokkaido should also be taken into account, I don't know. —Granger (talk · contribs) 09:41, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

I did put a warning box on Hokkaido as their governor has declared a state of emergency. JRHorse (talk) 19:02, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

30 March 2020

I am waiting for official confirmation on JNTO's website but from news reports I am reading, Japan will ban entry of foreigners from about 1/3 of all countries and regions, while all others will be asked to self quarantine. Maybe it sounds like captain obvious but I feel this would warrant a warning box now, once it's confirmed? JRHorse (talk) 11:27, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

1 April 2020

I've added the updates from the JNTO as they were posted this morning. Since it's a long list I just decided to provide a link to the JNTO's coronavirus website where a full list of affected countries and regions can be found. From the site, I count over 70 countries/regions subject to an entry ban and over 20 subject to visa cancellation. JRHorse (talk) 15:18, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

6 April 2020

The Japanese prime minister has announced he is finalizing plans to declare a state of emergency for seven prefectures, so I'd like to change the caution box to a warning box once the declaration has been made. Thoughts are welcome. JRHorse (talk) 13:14, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Is there a "non-obvious danger to life and limb"? I doubt that many non-Japanese travellers are going to Japan or can get in now, so I don't think there is a danger to life. Ground Zero (talk) 13:28, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Would this state of emergency affect those (though they are likely small in number) who are visiting Japan? If the effect is substantial, a warningbox would be the better of the two options (for example, if those still in Japan are being evacuated); but if it's merely a "state of emergency" that's not going to be an emergency for most people, then I'd support keeping it as a cautionbox. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:53, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

What would be the difference then, say, compared to the warning box currently up for South Korea? (granted I don't think that particular message has been updated for a bit) JRHorse (talk) 14:33, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure that needs to be a warningbox. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 14:56, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

I've updated the South Korea page with the updated information and changed to a caution box. With regards to this article, coronavirus does pose a danger to life and limb. But, since this is probably now obvious instead of non-obvious, would that be the difference to keep the caution box here? JRHorse (talk) 15:26, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

I think so. I wouldn't count the virus itself, since as you say, that threat is obvious. I'm thinking about threats directly associated with travel (such as travel restrictions), and I don't see any that warrant a warningbox. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:45, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Japan PM Shinzo Abe Lifts Coronavirus Emergency May 25th Pashley (talk) 23:36, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Xenophobia

In the discrimination section of Stay Safe, this was written: "Xenophobia has intensified as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic, with an increased number of restaurants and other businesses now refusing service to foreign customers."

I am not reading any primary sources suggesting there is an intensification of Xenophobia in Japan. Please discuss, or else a revert should be considered. JRHorse (talk) 03:50, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

I haven't seen or heard of businesses refusing non-Japanese customers either. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 07:24, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

I've reverted it. JRHorse (talk) 13:06, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

See this article for an example of a restaurant refusing service to foreign customers because of COVID-19 fears. The dog2 (talk) 22:42, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

I know people get excited about discrimination, but I don't think one instance from way back in February warrants a warning that foreigners are being denied services all over Japan. That's rather unfair and extremely sensational. A lot has changed since February. At that time the virus was from China and brought by Chinese people. Now, everyone is a potential carrier and the public is aware of that. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 05:06, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Sure, it may not be all or even most restaurants refusing service to foreigners, and we should not overstate the problem, but things like this have happened even before COVID-19 started. My colleague (who is white, by the way) told me that a restaurant in Kanazawa refused to serve him and his wife even though there were many empty seats. Unfortunately, my colleague can't speak Japanese, and the restaurant staff could not speak English or Spanish, so they weren't able to communicate verbally, but what he told me was that when he tried to dine there, the restaurant owner came out and made a cross sign with his arms while blocking the entrance to let them know that they were not welcome. So it would certainly not be exaggeration to say that things like this do happen. And my colleague definitely does not dress like a gangster, so that can be ruled out as a reason. The dog2 (talk) 19:23, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

I would suggest that we change (going by the quote in the beginning of this discussion) "has intensified" to "has become an issue" or something along those lines. I'm not sure anyone can prove that it has intensified, but rather that it is now perhaps more noticed than it has been in the past (due to the impacts of the virus). --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:51, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Subsidised travel?

Japan might pay for half of your next trip to jumpstart tourism No details yet, but likely worth tracking. Pashley (talk) 21:49, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Follow-up articles have sort of debunked this; the subsidies appear to be aimed at domestic Japanese travelers. JRHorse (talk) 01:43, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Curry?

Shanghai has a lot of curry restaurants with Japanese names & I, planning my first trip to Japan when the COVID problem dies down, wondered if they were common in Japan. w:Japanese curry says yes but I do not see much on them in this article.

They look worth adding to me, but since I do not know Japan, I will not do that myself. Pashley (talk) 01:14, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Definitely. Japanese curry can be exquisite. And then there is w:Yoshinoya, a big chain with orange signs. Its curry is so bland and disappointing. Japan is such a great place for food that you shouldn't waste your calorie budget on food like that. I'm not a Japan expert, but an enthusiastic amateur. I don't have specific recommendations because we just wandered neighbourhoods looking at menus. Most places seemed to have an English menu posted, or behind the counter, and restaurateurs were usually eager to help clueless foreigners. Enjoy. Ground Zero (talk) 02:01, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Japanese curry is very famous and very common. I wouldn't personally recommend chain restaurants, unless you are interested in that experience, but a lot of places have curry. There are also cities known for curry, such as Kuwana, Gujo, Bizen, Toyohashi, Kanazawa, etc. and Hokkaido has its own "soup curry" that is good as well. Curry Udon is also extremely popular and well worth it. Nagoya has good curry udon. I'll take a look at the "Eat" section to see if I can add something. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 11:30, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

I took a stab at adding a blurb. I don't know how good it is, but feel free to edit. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 11:55, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Should we maybe mention some chains that are known for their curry rice? One place recommend by my Japanese colleague I ate at the last time I visited Japan was CoCo Ichibanya, and I remember their curry was pretty nice. The dog2 (talk) 05:05, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Looking at the other food categories, none of them list chain restaurants, so it's probably not warranted. Coco Curry is one of the chains listed in the Japanese cuisine article. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 08:55, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Discrimination

Suggested amendments to "Although violent attacks against foreigners in Japan are almost unheard of, there is systemic discrimination, particularly against darker-skin people." In Japan, I think unconscious discrimination is more accurate than institutional discrimination. I suggest that we change institutional discrimination to unconscious discrimination. I don't think it's "particulary" so I removed "particulary". I also think it's more about unconscious discrimination against specifical countries. Also, since a later sentence mentions white people. Therefore, we propose to change it to "Although violent attacks against foreigners in Japan are almost unheard of,but there is unconscious discrimination, against a person with a different skin color than the Japanese and specifical nationality.".--コイコイ (talk) 01:53, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

I have not been to Japan yet, so I'm guessing here, based on experience in China. I'd have just:

"There is some discrimination against anyone who is not Japanese, especially against blacks. However, neither violence against foreigners nor most of the scams seen in poorer Asian countries are at all common in Japan." Pashley (talk) 04:32, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

To my knowledge, there's no official laws that apply specifically to one race but not the other. But from what I've heard, let's say you want to apply for an English-teaching job, they do prefer white people over non-whites. I definitely noticed that white people got treated somewhat better than me in say, restaurants, although I must make it clear that I was not treated badly, and they were still polite to me. I just remember that at a sushi restaurant, the chef came out from behind the bar to specifically bow to the white customer. I was treated politely too, but I didn't get that special treatment. The dog2 (talk) 05:09, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

We do have this text in Teaching_English#Looking_for_work:

There are often fairly strong preferences for native English speakers and for citizens of major English-speaking countries. Job ads fairly often include a list of acceptable passports; UK, US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand are on every list, Ireland and South Africa on most. Even if not explicitly stated, many employers will not even read the rest of your resume, and some governments will refuse to issue you a work permit without one of those passports. Many ads also give an acceptable age range, and a few specify gender or marital status; this would be illegal under discrimination laws in some countries, but is fairly common in ads for overseas jobs.

Especially in Asia, various prejudices and stereotypes may also come into play; many schools prefer white people, especially blue-eyed blondes, in large part because they hope the "right" image will help their marketing. This is mainly based on economics — the archetypal native English speaker is a white person, and parents who send their children to be taught by a native English speaker expect the teachers to look that way. Overseas Chinese (even ones with English as their first language), Filipinos, Indians, Malaysians, American Blacks, and especially Africans all report some difficulties finding jobs, or getting lower offers. Members of all those groups are happily employed in other schools, and many are well-paid, but getting a job is easier if you fit the stereotype.

Is that all we need there? (I'd say so.) Should we link to it from other places? (not certain) Pashley (talk) 10:03, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't know that we need to have a special warning about black people. We need to be careful just slapping "everyone hates blacks" warnings on everything just because people assume everyone hates black people. If we're going to single out specific groups as facing heightened discrimination, we need a good reason, and I don't think that is the case here. Lots of foreigners, mostly residents rather than tourists, have stories of mild discrimination (some real, some imagined) but to pretend it's so bad for black people that we need to single them out like they shouldn't visit Japan or they should think twice about coming doesn't seem right to me. I think the Teaching English description for employment discrimination is fine and has truth, but I do not think it's true that as tourists black people need to be warned about visiting Japan any more than other tourists. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 15:05, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree that the discrimination in Japan is for the most part mild, and it's very rare for violent hate crimes to happen. However, "darker-skin" doesn't necessarily mean just black people. That group includes many non-Japanese Asians and Pacific Islanders as well, like perhaps Indians, Thais, Burmese, Malays, Fijians, Tongans and so on. The dog2 (talk) 15:08, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Many Japanese themselves are as dark as the groups you mention. If you have to say "perhaps" then it's poorly written. We shouldn't make strange, archaic references to "dark people" when we have the ability to name exact groups without ambiguity. Do Japanese treat Indians particularly poorly or not? Should Burmese travelers avoid Japan? Are we just making stuff up? ChubbyWimbus (talk) 15:20, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, let's please not make stuff up. We shouldn't be "guessing based on experience in China"—let's rely on editors who are familiar with Japan. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:28, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

I have been to Japan a number of times. I will say that it's certainly true that white people get treated somewhat better than non-Japanese Asians. But it's in subtle ways like the way I mentioned. It certainly isn't serious enough to warrant asking non-Japanese Asians to avoid Japan, but I think it's something some people will notice, and therefore should be mentioned, though not sensationalised. That's not to say that non-whites cannot have a good time Japan (I wouldn't have visited multiple times if I didn't), but merely that there are some subtle things that you might notice during your trip. The dog2 (talk) 18:11, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Forgive me for my skepticism, but how do you know that the sushi chef only stepped out to greet the white people BECAUSE they were white? While anything is possible and I wasn't there, it seems just as likely that you missed some context and just decided for yourself that race is the answer. You tend to show hyper-sensitivity towards things like race, so it does leave me wondering if the situation is not what you perceived it to be. Giving special greetings to white people is not a thing Japanese people do. The likelihood of that same situation recurring is next to zero. I think mentioning that Japanese show "subtle preferential treatment towards whites over other foreigners" or "subtle racism against dark people" is already sensationalizing it by putting the idea in the travelers mind that if they're "dark" they should look for racism/discrimination. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 12:08, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ I know this is not a travel-related issue, but a Japanese friend told me that if you are male and go to a nightclub, it is much easier for you to chat up the ladies if you are male. So the preference for white people most certainly exists to an extent. In fact, Japanese women go to host clubs to specifically talk to either white or Japanese men. As I said, it's not as if the Japanese will be rude to you if you are not white. It doesn't go that far. But pretending that prejudices and stereotypes don't exist at all is also not being honest. The dog2 (talk) 17:17, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Anyway, to try to end this dispute and come up with something fair, Bigpeteb, JRHorse and Ineffablebookkeeper, you guys seem familiar with Japan too, so what are your takes? The dog2 (talk) 18:18, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Hiya - while it's true that outright discrimination probably doesn't take the same form as you'd see in, say, America, I'd say that it's likely because outwardly expressed everything likely takes a different form in Japan. I'll explain.

I'm from the UK myself - and prevailing attitudes towards discrimination against black people were, for a very long time, that This Sort Of Thing Doesn't Happen Here.

However, this would often be in response to American examples of discrimination - which can be more outwardly and plainly expressed. We always say that Americans are loud and noisy people. So, if we are quieter people...then our racism, our discrimination, won't be as loud and noisy. It'll just be shitty and quiet and snide and subtle - subtle in the same way that all UK society is, subtle enough that someone from the UK, who's essentially lived through the Careful Dance of How the UK Society Works, would still pick up on it, because the barrier for entry into "what's discrimination" is in a different theme park.

I hope I'm explaining this okay. Our goalposts for society are in a different area, but we've still got goalposts for racism. After all, having to be a little more snide, a bit more of a curtain-twitcher never really stopped a racist from expressing their views, making their point, doing their harm and getting away with it. People just figure out different ways they can do that stuff, and keep their jobs and families. (See this and this comedy bit from Netflix and Live At The Apollo, which explain the point I'm trying to get across far more succinctly than I've done here.)

In the same sense, discrimination in Japan still exists - but if your frame of reference is one where racist views and discrimination is overt, then obviously, you might think that "unconscious discrimination is more accurate than institutional discrimination". Because it would be that way, if you went through it with a different frame of reference. It'd be like me going to the US, picking up a copy of the Guardian, and finding out that they're not as institutionally transphobic as the UK version. For a brief moment, you get a feeling of respite. It feels a little bit like, if not a holiday, a light breather.

However, I'd not put "unconscious discrimination" under any circumstances. I don't think I can be any less vague in saying that "unconscious" washes responsibility from the hands of those who may be expressing discriminatory views, implies to the reader that they don't really mean it - a little like visiting one's racist uncle for Thanksgiving and being told that, in some ways, It's Just You Who Has A Problem, Dear - and also really ignores the existence of a), minorities - including black Japanese people - within Japanese society, and b), plays a little too much into "Culturally Rich but Societally Backwards" stereotypes that typically trail around the East like cans on a wedding car.

It's not the right choice here. Just because discrimination in Japan feels more subtle, it doesn't mean it is more subtle if you're the one experiencing it, fully within the societal context of Japan. The word "unconscious" kind of relies on the reader keeping some level of distance from this context, and it's not fair if a traveller has to keep their mental distance from the country they're visiting moreso than someone who's not in the same minority class as them.

Every country around the world hosts institutional discrimination, which within its context and when parroted by the people who ensure its continued existence, probably feels like an unconscious bias. But just because someone may not be aware of their bias, it by no way means that it is not institutional.

Lastly, I leave this link to a Youtube channel called The Black Experience Japan. I think it should clear up some of the uncertainties in this thread; it features a variety of half hour, ish, interviews with people who've lived or visited Japan in a number of different circumstances, time periods and for a number of different reasons. I feel it would be deeply remiss not to include this as part of the section on Discrimination in this article.

I hope that this can be of some use to you - and I apologise if I've gone over things that have already been dealt with. It's quite late for me, and as shitty and unprofessional as it is, I haven't had the time to backread this thread, so if it seems like I'm going over things for no reason, please forgive me. --Ineffablebookkeeper (not logged in)

Proposed change

I think the conversation will go nowhere without a proposal, so I propose this wording (for the first paragraph only): Violent attacks against foreigners in Japan are almost unheard of. While it's becoming increasingly rare, there may still be a small handful of onsen and restaurants that refuse foreign people. Some apartments, motels, night clubs, and public baths in Japan have been known to put up signs stating that foreigners are not allowed or that they must be accompanied by a Japanese person to enter. Such places are rare, however, and many Japanese claim that the prohibitions are due to perceived social incompatibility (for example, foreigners may not understand proper bathhouse etiquette) and not racism.

If someone wants to insert information about black people, please answer what discrimination black people face that is different from every other foreigner so we can then discuss its prevalence and level of importance as it relates to inclusion in this article. Simply saying "systemic discrimination" is a cop-out and sounds quite scary. It's a way to claim something exists without proof. So far in the discussion above, no one has given ANY examples in spite of having feelings that we should mention black or "dark people". Should black travelers be especially on guard in Japan? If so, explain why. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 13:17, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your input. Sorry, it took me so long to translate and understand the text that I couldn't participate in the discussion. Thank you for your suggestions. I think it's good. The fine nuances of English are difficult for me to understand, so it would be helpful if you all could brush up on them. If I may add, it's about restaurants. There's a lot of talk about restaurants, but some restaurants are often unfriendly. There are sometimes shops that are kind to regular customers and unfriendly to new customers, and this is no exception to the Japanese. That could be perceived as racism. The issue of discrimination is a very difficult one that has no easy answer. This is a page of travel information. Writing detailed information about detailed discrimination is better done on wikipedia, which requires a source.--コイコイ (talk) 16:04, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

• Support ChubbyWimbus' proposed wording. JRHorse (talk) 23:09, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
• I'll take it as a compromise. As for black people, in terms of getting assaulted for their race, the risk is almost none. I've spoken to black people who have lived in Japan before, and what they experienced was more of an annoyance than anything else. For instant, one complaint I have heard is that Japanese women like to just go up to black men an touch their hair. The dog2 (talk) 16:09, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Since there have been no objections, I went ahead and made the changes. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 13:09, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Length of article again

A while back we cut down this article from being by the far the longest country article in Wikivoyage to just being very long. Since then it has been consistently growing longer and longer as well-intentioned contributors add words here and there, extra bits of information, and repetition. I think it is time to start cutting the jungle back again so that readers can find the information they need more easily. I will start by moving most of the ryokan information to a separate article. Ryokans are a quintessential Japanese travel experience, deserving of their own article, but not of interest to all readers. Assistance from other contributors would be welcome in moving information to other articles, cutting back on excess verbiage, and refraining from packing into this one article everything nd anything that relates to Japan. Thanks. Ground Zero (talk) 13:29, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

I have created a Ryokan article. Additions would be welcome. Ground Zero (talk) 19:12, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

I have moved the lengthy information about buying a phone to the Working and studying in Japan article, and have left a note in the main article indicating that you can buy a phone even if your stay will be short. Most travellers won't buy a phone, but many workers and students will, so I think this is a good way of moving some very detailed, very specific text that will be of interest only to a small group out of the main article to improve readability. The few travellers considering buying a phone will be able to find the information easily by clicking on the link provided. Ground Zero (talk) 04:49, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Input requested - urban camping

There's a deletion discussion at Wikivoyage:Votes for deletion#Urban camping in Japan which could use input from people who are knowledgeable about Japan. —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:00, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

9th "Other destination"

Given that there is only 8 destinations in the #Other destinations section, what should the 9th be? @Tai123.123, Ikan Kekek, Ground Zero, コイコイ, JRHorse, The dog2: Any ideas? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 04:23, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Shikoku currently has 0 cities and other destinations so probably somewhere from there my first thought is the 88 shrine pilgrimage but this is an itinerary and I'm not sure if itineraries can be listed as other destinations. Other choices include Iya Valley, Naoshima and Muroto Misaki. I'm leaning towards Naoshima as japan's art scene is not represented by the current list. For non-shikoku options I'd pick Kiso Valley which I'm currently working on (though it is an extra hierarchal region). Tai123.123 (talk) 04:33, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I can't really think of any places now. I don't think we can list cities in the "other destinations" section. But sure, things like national parks qualify. Any recommendations? The dog2 (talk) 04:39, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2 Naoshima is not a city, it's an island with a population of 3,000 and a large art scene, I feel it fulfills criteria as an other destination. Tai123.123 (talk) 04:41, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I had a look at ja:日本 for more ideas. Seems like the Japanese Wikivoyage doesn't have city/other destination lists. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 04:45, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

@SHB2000 Looking at Japan Guide's Shikoku Page I fee; konpirasan in Kotohira is also a good choice

Here is my ranking

1. Naoshima
2. Ogasawara Islands
3. 88 Shrines (though I'm unsure if i can list itineraries here)
4. Kompirasan
5. Kiso Valley (biased cause I've worked on it
6. Iya Valley
7. Muroto Misaki, would be at number 5 if it had an article Tai123.123 (talk) 04:52, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I also like the idea of listing an Isolated island like the Ogasawara islands Tai123.123 (talk) 04:57, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I Added Ogasawara to the other destinations as a placeholder till consensus is made Tai123.123 (talk) 00:57, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

@コイコイ, @JRHorse @The dog2, Naoshima sseems like the most brought up destination, can i add it Tai123.123 (talk) 04:46, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Also do we all agree that Shirakawa-go should replace Japan alps which is disambiguation Tai123.123 (talk) 04:47, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

@SHB2000 Can I formerly end the disscusion formally adding Naoshima as it seems it is the most supported option and no one other than me has commented in 3 days. Tai123.123 (talk) 00:28, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Sure, go ahead and add Naoshima. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 00:34, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Ok I did Tai123.123 (talk) 00:36, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

We do not have to have a 9th. The policy says we should have around 7 places in a list, which we interpret as "7 plus or minus 2". We can have 9 (or 8, 7, 6 or 5), but we should never add a place just for the sake of having 9. Ground Zero (talk) 10:57, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

True... but I'm sure there's some good place in Japan that has to go there. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:17, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I am in agreement with Ground Zero in regards to the policy. That being said, my suggestion for a ninth location would be Himeji. However, that destination is already covered in Japan's Top 3. JRHorse (talk) 14:09, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

The Japanese WV is still new. Its content is mostly nonexistent at the moment, even for Japanese cities. Naoshima is indisputably a city (a town to be specific), but I think the "no city" rule is meant to prevent a place like Takamatsu from being listed rather than any place that is an administrative district. Naoshima is known an an "art island" which is the type of place that fits "Other destinations" quite well (I'm surprised it's not on Shikoku's page. I'll add it). In Shikoku, I think Naoshima or the 88 Temple Pilgrimage are the only sites that might be able to sit near a top 9. As much as I like Shikoku, I'm not sure it has enough of the "Other destination" types of sites of a high enough fame/caliber.

1. I think Shirakawa-go should be added, perhaps as a replacement for the Japan Alps. I never noticed that's a disambiguation page. Disambiguation pages should never be part of the "Top 9".
2. Takachiho and Dewa Sanzan are also top-knotch choices.
3. Ise Shrine could also work.

ChubbyWimbus (talk) 15:23, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Support decision to replace alps with Shirakawa-go, should I replace the Japan alps on the chubu page also (perhaps with Kamikochi) Tai123.123 (talk) 20:35, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't know what kind of place overseas people are looking for, but if you want to feel the old Japan,

1. Ise Shrine（伊勢神宮）, is ancient destination for travel, in Japan in the 18th century, travel meant going to Ise Jingu.
2. Izumo（出雲）[1], is place that is said to be the birthplace of Japanese mythology. It is said that all Japanese gods will gather in Izumo in October.
3. If you are looking for a modern tourist destination, Naoshima（直島） is a major tourist destination, as others have said.--コイコイ (talk) 02:17, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

My only problem with Ise is that religous structures are already represented with Miyajima and Koya San. Tai123.123 (talk) 04:26, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Currently 5 out of the 9 are islands. Variety is appreciated, though. Takachiho is religious but also known for its scenic beauty if that would be better. I'm warming up a bit to the idea of Naoshima, though. I'll switch out the Japan Alps for Shirakawa-go, and I also agree that Kamikochi is an appropriate switch-out in the Chubu region article. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 12:37, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I feel Dewa Sanzan and Osorezan are a better mix of religion and nature than takachiho as I feel the appeal of takacchiho for foreign tourists is purely natural Tai123.123 (talk) 04:29, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

New banners

Suggestion 0: Current banner

Suggestion 1: Fujikawa Bridge. Provisionally used for Shizuoka (prefecture).

Suggestion 2: Fuji tea fields. Provisionally used for Fuji.

Suggestion 3a: Chureito Pagoda and Fuji. Same source used for Japan's Top 3.

Suggestion 3b: Lower crop.

Suggestion 4: View from Tokyo Skytree.

Suggestion 5: Neon lights in Shinjuku. Provisionally used for Kanto.

Suggestion 6: Neon signs in Kabukichō, Shinjuku. Provisionally used for Tokyo/Shinjuku.

Suggestion 7: Chureito Pagoda and Fuji with sunset.

New banner candidates are up for Talk:Chubu, Talk:Shizuoka (prefecture), Talk:Fuji, Talk:Hakone, Talk:Kanto, Talk:Tokyo (prefecture), Talk:Tokyo, Talk:Tokyo/Shinjuku, Talk:Tokyo/Ginza, Talk:Tokyo/Minato, Talk:Tokyo/Bunkyo, Talk:Tokyo/Chiyoda, Talk:Kyoto/Central, Talk:Kansai, Talk:Tohoku, Talk:Japan's Top 3, Kanazawa, Talk:Miyagi and Talk:Working and studying in Japan. Here are some banner candidates which we could consider for Japan as a whole. /Yvwv (talk) 01:12, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Banner three SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:24, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

For more details, I prefer 3a, not 3b. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:20, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

• These are a bunch of great banners, but I feel like the current one still expresses the entire country best. After that, I suppose I would choose #2, #3, #5, #4 and #1, but maybe #4 is too specific to Tokyo and should be flipped with #1. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:33, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

New banner candidates. Let the current banner be suggestion 0. /Yvwv (talk) 02:02, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Three Tai123.123 (talk) 02:03, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Actually I like the first one the most Tai123.123 (talk) 03:32, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

I mean the current one with lanterns Tai123.123 (talk) 03:33, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

#3a for Japan, then #2, #5. Ground Zero (talk) 03:55, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

East Asia's banner is not a scenery. Mongolia is the only East Asian country with a scenery banner. And only five of Japan's nine regions have natural or rural sceneries. That is, in my opinion, a case for a scenery banner. /Yvwv (talk) 06:33, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Zero (The current one) It's a nice banner and it's not in another article. Banner 3 is already being used. We shouldn't be reusing banners in multiple articles. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 09:32, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

No, we definitely should not. However, if the current banner is replaced here, I think it would be superior to the existing banner in Japanese phrasebook. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:20, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

I have provisionally replaced some banners where there was a clear majority of votes. Some of our Japanese banners are still of poor quality; please make more votes and banner candidates. /Yvwv (talk) 22:16, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

I just stumbled upon this. I'd say 3A would be far superior and evocative as a page banner for Japan. JRHorse (talk) 12:50, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

To change a country banner we should need a supermajority. Added suggestion 7 with the same view as 3, but the whole of Fuji's shape. Can also be considered for local articles. Can we settle for any of the Chureito & Fuji banners as contender to the current banner? /Yvwv (talk) 23:55, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

7 looks good as well! Either that or 3A would be my vote. Does it have to come down to one of those two? :) JRHorse (talk) 04:03, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

7, 3a, current. --Onwa (talk) 05:14, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

I would vote for 7, which has not been used for any article, with 3A as a secondary candidate. /Yvwv (talk) 19:13, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Many grey dots on Dynamic Maps

Why are there grey markers covering the Shinkansen routes and how can we remove them? Thank you! Tai123.123 (talk) 06:46, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

I agree. It looks terrible and obfuscates the actual destinations (and basically the entire country in general). ChubbyWimbus (talk) 09:28, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

@Tai123.123, ChubbyWimbus: it can be fixed by fixing the |show= parameter, but I can't seem to fix it for some reason. Maybe its something to do with wikidata? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 00:30, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

@ChubbyWimbus @SHB2000 I commented out the shinkansen lines and that fixed it though you can no longer see the Shinkansen lines, I'd like to have the shinkansen without the grey dots but i feel it's better this way Tai123.123 (talk) 01:55, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

This is definitely better than before. Thanks both of you. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 11:54, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

(-: SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:58, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Japanese Gardens

I created a Japanese gardens page, if you are knowledgeable about japanese gardens please help. Tai123.123 (talk) 04:38, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for starting it. I don't know too much about Japanese gardens in Japan, so I'll leave it to you and ChubbyWimbus, unless if we want to include foreign Japanese gardens as well. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:09, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

@SHB2000 There's an international section at the bottom, if you know of any japanese garden in australia please add them. Tai123.123 (talk) 06:14, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't know many here, but I do some in the US. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:15, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Typhoon Nanmadol

Should there be warning or caution boxes up for Japan because of the typhoon, or should we wait until the damage has been assessed? JRHorse (talk) 15:57, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Those travelling now might appreciate a warningbox being there already. –LPfi (talk) 16:50, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, done. Will see how things shape out over the next couple of days. JRHorse (talk) 17:47, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Smart cards

The warning is warranted because not being able to buy smart cards is really weird, quite inconvenient, and easily worked around if you know about it in advance. Plus this is a temporary state of affairs that will go away once Sony or whoever gets their shit together.

AFAIK it is not possible to buy regular Suica/Pasmo anymore, even at the airport. The 28-day expiry of the tourist cards, which are still available, is mentioned and highlighted.

The Android apps are useless on non-Japanese phones without osaifu-keitai, because they can't be used as cards. For Apple phones, Apple Wallet works fine, there's little added value to installing the dedicated app.

The rest of my edits was for duplicated or excessively verbose content, people can draw their own conclusions about (eg) whether they should use cash or credit to buy a card. Jpatokal (talk) 07:28, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

I put the expiry of the tourist cards into the caution box, because this is actually something to be very cautious about. A situation that is the current status-quo is hardly anything you can be cautious about, you just have to accept it. Also, I barely believe it will be temporary, especially if someone at the card companies does the maths on how much money tourists let expire with these tourist cards. But I am happily looking forward of you convincing me of the contrary in let's say 2-3 years. Everything else is speculation and WV is not a place to spread company propaganda ... who know what is the real reason for the decision. As I said before, these cards (tourist and non-tourist) use the same technology, it doesn't make sense that "chips" are the real reason for this change. Furthermore, why would any new technology come with such a short expiry date, suddenly the new RFID chips go explode after a few months? That seems all BS to me. But please provide me with an independent source that explains all this technology change properly.

Furthermore, it is not true that smart cards are overly accepted by Japanese, maybe in Tokyo, but in other regions the situation is much different as it was explained to me. Hence, I adjusted the wording of the importance of the card in Japanese society.

I furthermore adjusted some wording and the cash option with Suica.

For the rest, I agree with you.

Cheers Ceever (talk) 11:34, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Earthquake on 2024-01-01

Just wondering how wikivoyage is handling w:2024 Sea of Japan earthquake / WD:2024 Ishikawa earthquake / Commons: 2024 Noto Earthquake, which are all synonyms for the same event, I think. Thanks in advance, Ottawahitech (talk) 22:36, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

There seem to be warningboxes at Wajima and Noto Peninsula. —Granger (talk · contribs) 22:38, 2 January 2024 (UTC)