User talk:Pbsouthwood

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This is the current talk page of Peter Southwood, who previously edited Wikitravel with the same username, and whose imported talk page is archived at User talk:(WT-en) Pbsouthwood, in the form that it was imported into Wikivoyage, as a historical document and for attribution purposes.

Thanks for protecting this page version, Peter, before the floodgates open! --W. Franke-mailtalk 22:35, 22 September 2012 (CEST)

General cleanup awesomeness barnstar[edit]


This general-cleanup-awesomeness-barnstar is to show you how much we appreciate your hard work in helping get Wikivoyage EN ready before the launch! --Tsandell (talk) 23:08, 23 September 2012 (CEST)

Thanks, It was something that needed to be done, and I will be away without regular connection for a few months starting next month, so I thought I should do what I could while I can. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 23:25, 23 September 2012 (CEST)


Hello, Pbsouthwood. You have a new message at my talk page. --Saqib (talk) 10:12, 24 September 2012 (CEST)

Italian User:Gobbler needs assistance[edit]

He seems to be having password problems:

He's a good contributor! --W. Franke-mailtalk 23:29, 27 September 2012 (CEST)

I don't think I can help with access to fr:, I am not registered there myself (my French is vestigial at best). Sumone10154 is bureaucrat on fr: • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 00:10, 28 September 2012 (CEST)
Thanks any way, Peter - I see you already gave him that good advice. --W. Franke-mailtalk 00:16, 28 September 2012 (CEST)


Hi Peter, your nomination for admin is completed and without any objection properly archieved. Thank you for your efforts, Jc8136 (talk) 15:05, 5 October 2012 (CEST)

Thanks, I will be back in action in middle to late December. At present at anchor in Leigh, New Zealand, with very limited web access. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 07:12, 21 October 2012 (CEST)

When you're back[edit]

Could you take a look at Category:Files uploaded by Pbsouthwood on wts-old [1]. It's the largest files-by-user category left unmigrated, and it looks challenging to review! The main things to do will be to make sure all images have a link to the source (mainly for maps), a {{move}} tag (most already do), a license tag, and information about authorship. For any files that were given to you by someone else with permission, you'll need to forward that permission to Commons' OTRS (permissions review) team, and the permission will have to be pretty clear-cut, e.g., "I hereby consent to license all my images that have been uploaded by User:Pbsouthwood under the terms of Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0."

That's all a bit complex, so please do ask me questions, if you have any. --Peter Talk 03:54, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Peter, Is the information about authorship and permission on [[2]] OK or must it be somehow put on the file page?
Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 19:43, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Following files are not my uploads, I just purged them of WT logo. I have no idea of their copyright status or provenance beyond what is already in the files.
Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 03:51, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No worries about the ones that weren't actually your uploads. The Adam on PMB stairs message should be fine, but you'll need to forward the actual mail (with original headers) to per OTRS, once it's been transferred there. --Peter Talk 07:51, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
OK, then they will have to wait until I get home and have access to my e-mail archives. No big problem, just a delay. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 09:38, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Most are now checked and ready to move as far as I can tell. One should stay local, one can be abandoned and the group listed above are outside my competence to check. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 05:14, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent. I've tagged your category as reviewed, and hopefully they will all be moved shortly. If some are not, then we'll take another look at the problem ones. --Peter Talk 06:48, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 07:54, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I will move them later tonight if by bot is not on vacation :-) After the move it would be really nice if you could help check and fix the files on Commons (description, categories, errors?). --MGA73 (talk) 10:15, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]


"Rodrigo, could you explain the advantages you see in the use of tables rather than the conventional style listings? • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 05:50, 20 December 2012 (UTC)"

Hey, Peter, sorry the delay, but is here: Wikivoyage talk:Listings#About tables.. Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton m 21:08, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I see your point and will comment there. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 21:52, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

FTT nomination[edit]

I've nominated Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay for Featured Travel Topic and invite you to write the blurb for when it gets featured on the main page. AHeneen (talk) 01:26, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I will look into it immediately. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 04:41, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

One question re Diving in South Australia[edit]

Hi Peter (Southwood), thanks for your message - I have one immediate question. How does one add a 'path' under the page title (i.e. Scuba diving > Diving in South Africa > Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay). Cowdy001 (talk) 08:58, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Cowdy, Use the template {{IsPartOf|}}. It is available as a mouse-click option when editing, (second item from bottom of list of tags and templates below the edit window. Usage is fairly obvious, parameter after the pipe is the page thet the article is part of. Generates breadcrumb trail at top of article. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 09:48, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Peter (Southwood), thanks for the info re 'breadcrumbs'. I am thinking of doing a divesite page as a demonstration (probably Rapid Bay as it is a popular destination for seeing Leafy Seadragons). I am interested in recruiting some other local divers to help out. I have both UW & surface photos. I am interested in doing a site drawing; I have both hardcopy & digital data (Illustrator & AutoCAD formats). Do you have any guidance for doing such drawings?Cowdy001 (talk) 09:52, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A single divesite is usually done as a sub-article of the regional article. Ie. [[Main article dive region/divesite]]. If at some stage an intermediate level article is found to be desirable, an admin can do the renaming.
Go ahead and create the article, add illustrations etc.
What output formats can you produce with your drawing software? (I dont use those ones). Png is recommended for raster images like maps, and svg for the working files, but you can also use svg for the display file. I use Inkscape, which is freeware, but I think Illustrator can output svg. The way I work is to do all the dive sites that are very close to each other on a single svg drawing and export png files of the relevant details for upload. The svg tends to be rather large after a while, with many layers, but the system is flexible and fairly robust. I base my maps on aerial photography and detailed survey data collected by towing a GPS logger on an SMB when I swim contours. I then download to a map program and grab screenshots to trace on the drawing software. I dont know what kind of data you plan to use, it may differ. I also make sketches of wrecks on a slate with measurements by tape or estimate and many proportions and details by eye, photo and GoPro video (GoPro is very useful for wrecks). If you can give me a better idea of your input data I may be able to make more specific suggestions.
You can use the same colour schemes that I have, or try something else if you think it will be better. Try to standardise on one set of colours for a major region. Changing a palate is no big deal though, so play around if you like.
I have kept notes for dive site maps using Inkscape at User:Pbsouthwood/Wikivoyage dive site maps. Some of the information like colour codes should be portable. Igmore the display example experiments at the top of the page. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 10:24, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the advice; I will review & start on my first article this weekend.Cowdy001 (talk) 10:03, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Peter, I am now back on Wikivoyage for a while and have just done work on the dive site at Rapid Bay. Can you have a look at this page and the those for Edithburgh Jetty and the Neptune Islands to see if there are any issues with the consistency in the use of the templates? Regards Cowdy001 (talk) 11:25, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Cowdy, Nice article on Edithburg Jetty. No problems at all. See its talk page for more comments. Do you mean Diving in South Australia/Rapid Bay Jetty? The Rapid Bay article is an empty template. You might want to make Edithburgh Jetty a subpage of Diving in South Australia for consistency (like the other two). I will look at the other two dive site articles soon. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 06:40, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have added photos and map to Rapid Bay Jetty. Also looked at Neptune Islands, which is a good start. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 10:12, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]


The standard text in Template:wtuser is "... Read more about the Migration from Wikitravel."

But if you click on the link you end on a page about the migration to Wikimedia. Should there not be a page telling about the migration from Wikitravel somewhere? --MGA73 (talk) 21:34, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think there should be, but whatever we write, it would be accused of bias. It may be better for someone who was not intimately involved to write it up. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 06:31, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay thank you. :-) --MGA73 (talk) 19:28, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Peter, a new user User:Johnmartindavies tries to set up an article about a reef. I have the feeling that he slightly struggles to get it into shape. He has loads of infos. I tried to create interest in your star diving articles but it would be great if you could guide him a bit. He works daily on it but i fear he lacks a bit the experience in writing. jan (talk) 12:18, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the notification Jan, I will take a look immediately. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 12:35, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Peter, John does a very good job with the pictures and the reef. I see you tried to explain him how to communicate. I fear -if i dare to compare to my retired mother- that he doesn't understand the way wikis communicate. Are you aware of any (youtube) tutorial WMF/Wikipedia has on how to use user- and talkpages? I see he has the best intentions and i try my best to support his task but somehow we need to teach him to use a talkpage. jan (talk) 11:59, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Jan, I don't know of any suitable tutorial though there probably is on somewhere. We need to get him to look at his own talk page, but unfortunately he has not enabled e-mail, and does not appear to have noticed attempts to communicate in the usual places. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 14:03, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

from Johnmartindavies

I haven't located your email address.

Thank you Peter for your assistance and courtesy,

My comments regarding my CV were because Jan seemed to disparage my ability to write. I was never my intention to write a dive guide for divers for various reasons. My original attempt was to write about Cobblers Reef from the point of view of the general traveller who can observe the surface of the Ocean, and wonder about it. I tried to indicate that there was little published information. I naively thought Wikivoyage was for intelligent travellers, not specifically divers.

a. Cobblers reef is not suitable for the vast majority of visiting divers due to the hostile conditions, though locals cope with them. The nearest land is 6000 Km in south West Africa. The reef is in the teeth of the prevailing winds, seas and currents. Locals don't need a guide written by an elderly European. The local boats (Pirogues) are not suitable for most tourists in rough seas.

b Commercial dive operations which are financially driven recognise this by not coming here. I tried to make this clear but my information was moved elsewhere by Wikivoyage.

c. Encouraging divers to come here will lead at least to disappointment as I indicated in my earlier reports, but these reports also were moved. It might also lead to danger to those not suited to dive here.

d. I have had hundreds of dives here either alone or with locals who have come to trust me to be with them, but I am soon going to be too old to keep going at 73 in harsh conditions. Most regular divers at the Crane wisely choose to dive on the calm West Coast.

e. The Reef is a spectacular vision on the surface which encouraged me to say years ago "a. Can it be dived? (been done for centuries) b. What is there?"

f. During 13 years diving at the Crane Resort and the length of Cobblers Reef a few divers but many non-divers asked "What do you see. If I swim out all I see is sand?" I tried to answer this, not to encourage potentially dangerous diving.

g. Cobblers Reef is not hostile for fauna, indeed geographically it must be one of the most unpolluted places on earth, for any organism that can cope with the mechanical fury of the winds, tides, swell, surf and currents.

h. On the Travel Section of a commercial organisation I wrote a loosely constructed article about Cobblers Reef that for a number of years was top of the Google list for Cobblers Reef with many hits. Viovio withdrew their support for their travel section for commercial reasons.

i. Most of my published images were shrunk for the web and many of them annotated. I retain the originals but have given Wikivoyage the diminished and often annotated versions.

j. Cobblers Reef is not just a dive site but a venue for many other activities, mostly not applicable to many visiting tourists except as a spectacle. Most divers appreciate what they see from a dive site and the history of the area and the divesite, and travellers like to see the perspective of what they know on land from the ocean.

k. Local divers mostly do not need GPS because they cannot dive out of site of tradional landmarks (cross fixes) because of the ocean depth. They do not need depth sounders because they can see down to where they want to dive. Many won't use computers because they restrict the depth and duration of their dives. They don't use weight belts because a full tank is adequate. They don't use a BC because an empty tank suffices and a BC slows them down. They may rely on a contents gauge though tank buoyancy also informs them, and even a basic depth gauge does not give them much more information than their senses. They can see the surface or their gauge and count seconds or look at their judge their stops. They don't need a compass because the current and the sun tells them direction. Technology provided by well wishers like me is soon discarded as redundant. Spear fishing with SCUBA is legal and they have a good chamber to fall back on.

l. I was trying to describe what I see, not what should be, for a more general audience than divers. I am becoming disillusioned with the constrictive idea that I am writing a dive guide for divers. who can't or won't dive here.

m. Most locals do double dives and sitting in a small boat for an hour after the first dive in the sea conditions on Cobblers Reef renders many European and North American tourists seasick even if they abstain from alcohol the night before.

n. Any European diving with the locals soon leaves them behind at 40 metres while his computer steadily brings him towards the surface. Different currents at different depths increases the risk of not being picked up, not a good prospect in the face of the cliffs and currents. —The preceding comment was added by Johnmartindavies (talkcontribs)

Hi John, I will try to answer your points in order.

My personal email is not publicly available on the site, but you can mail me through Wikivoyage by clicking on the link "E-mail this user" in the sidebar on my user page (the grey column to the right of this page, under the heading "Toolbox". You are welcome to do so for any communication you would prefer to keep private.
Any communication with another user on Wikitravel that is not private may be made on a user talk page, like this one, ot on your own user talk page, where several people have left you messages. Usually a conversation is continued on the same page as it is started, so I am replying to you here. I will put a message on your talk page to inform you that I have replied here, but you can also set your watchlist ti cover any page you have an interest in. To do that, click on the star in the tab on the top right of the page. It will go dark when the page is on your watchlist.
I dont think Jan is disparaging your ability to write, but he is concerned that you are not aware of our conventions and practices. I think he is not a native English speaker either. It will save a lot of effort in the long run if you will read our policies and Manual of style, as we are all constrained by them in order to keep a reasonably consistent appearance and format for the articles. To get to the directory page for policies and manual of style, click on "Policies" in the sidebar under the "Get involved" header.
Your knowledge of the subject is apparent from what you write. We do not expect anyone to prove academic or formal qualification. We write, and anyone who feels the inclination may edit to improve the article, either by spotting trivialities like punctuation or spelling errors, or by reformatting to match recommended style, or by adding information or photos, or by removing them if they are not suited to the article. The site is run on consensus, and in spite of that seeming unlikely to be achievable, it generally works out well for those who enjoy collaborative work. You will find that there are very few of us working on dive guide articles, so anyone who can provide good information is particularly welcome in this field.
Unlike Wikipedia, where original research is forbidden, on Wikivoyage it is encouraged. There is no requirement to cite your references, in fact if you do, they should not be in the article text. Put them in as an invisible comment, or on the talk page, or as a reference in the "Read" section if they are likely to be of interest to the ordinary traveller (or diver in our case).

Now, on to the numbered items:

a) It doesn't matter if you write for a relatively select audience, there will be divers who find it interesting. I will take the liberty of adding some of your comments above to the article, as they put it in perspective. As an "elderly European", you have a unique view of the area. If the area is not suitable for the average overweight 10 dives a year PADI open water diver, that doesn't stop it from being interesting to divers with a more appropriate training, skills and and fitness.
b) The information about access to the site should go in the section "Get in". I will try to find the relevant text and move it there.
c) We dont guarantee satisfation, we just try to give good information, Warnings about safety should go in the "Stay safe" section.
d) I salute your spirit of adventure, self-sufficiency and ability to dive a challenging area at your age. I hope to be able to do the same (and will soon find out). There are others who read this guide who may also choose to explore the relatively unfrequented and physically challenging areas. We are not their keepers, but we provide what guidance we can based on our experience and local knowledge. It is easy to find a guide for the easy and popular sites. It is relatively difficult to find good information on the more "off the beaten path" sites. I write on Cape Town sites, which are often quite rough, usually cold, abd not the best visibility. Nevertheless they are great diving if you like invertebrates.
e) And now you can tell us about it.
f) OK, I see your point, but this is a travel guide, and the intention is to provide information which will help others who are considering going to the place. Wikipedia is the place to put encyclopaedic information, but it requires citations and does not allow original research (personal experience). I also have to curb my leanings toward narrative, and stick to the content suitable for the specific article.
g) The reef sounds like a rewarding site for those who can cope with the conditions.
h) Wikitravel has a specific set of guiding principles: 1) Our work should be guided by what works best from the traveller's perspective. (You could call this our Prime Directive) and 2) Our goal is to create a free, complete, up-to-date and reliable world-wide travel guide. Everything in our policies and gudance is based on those principles.

i) We would prefer good quality, high resolution images with minimum annotation, but will generally settle for what we can get if nothing better is available. Often a poor quality image is much better than none at all, and when better images become available, we update the article.
j) Cobblers Reef is not just a dive site but a venue for many other activities, mostly not applicable to many visiting tourists except as a spectacle. Most divers appreciate what they see from a dive site and the history of the area and the divesite, and travellers like to see the perspective of what they know on land from the ocean.
k) I have a little experience diving in the Caribbean, and know what you are talking about, but as we also (mainly?) cater for non-locals, all those things can be usefully included in the article. The higher tech gear, and the information needed for their use, will help an person unfamiliar with the area to stay out of some kinds of trouble. Information on how the locals do it can be included to some extent as local colour, possibly in the "Understand" section.
l) Describing the area for a more general audience would go in an article for the region of for a town in the region. Wikitravel does not as a general rule allow full articles on "attractions" ie. places which you visit but do not stay at. The base criterion for a mainspace destination article is "can you sleep there". This means that any general description would have to go in another article under a "Do" or "See" section, and would usually have to be relatively short and to the point.
m) Sounds like my kind of diving.
n) Some planning required.

I dont know if this helps you. I don't think this site is exactly what you had hoped for, but I hope you will give our readers that part of your knowledge that is appropriate here, and possibly write up some of the other information on Wikipedia. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 14:50, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Peter, I appreciate your advice. I will try to follow and will value any further help you give me. You are right I didn't follow or study your protocols, but just plunged in. I prefer the galleries that you introduced me to.I will probably put in a little section as to how the locals dive and how to try and safely work with them. The most important is having their confidence and that can easily dissipate in rivalries or ruffled sensitivities. Furthermore they don't need me but I need them. I tried to put a message on here about 8 hours ago but it later disappeared. 'm still struggling with communicating. Your South African reports are amazing Johnmartindavies 00:45, 28 January 2013 (UTC)—The preceding comment was added by Johnmartindavies (talkcontribs)

Hi John, You will pick it up as you go along, you are still on the very steep part of the learning curve.
Others have commented on strange missing edits, that sometimes reappear. This seems to be a recent problem and they are guessing that it is connected to the move of WMF servers. It may be that some edits are on one set of servers and the next ime you look you get the other servers and they have not been updated yet. I think the WMF people will be working on this. I am glad you like the Cape Peninsula dive guide, as it has taken me about 10 years and over 1000 dives to get it this far. It will always be a work in progress, and is part of a larger project which extends to Wikipedia where I will be writing up the ecology and geology of the region, with one or two other major contributors and the usual horde of copyeditors ets. Keeps me busy. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 05:36, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In passing, to produce your wikisignature at the end of a comment on a talk page, just type in four tildes ( ~~~~ ) . You can modify your signature on your preferences page if you want, but it is a little technical. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 05:36, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

SAS Pietermaritzburg[edit]

Peter, can you possibly recreate this image without the WikiTravel logo? --NJR ZA (talk) 18:49, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Done, I thought I had done them all. Turns out I had already done this one, but had not uploaded it. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 05:06, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I'm busy categorizing the photos in Commons:Category:Dive sites of the Cape Peninsula and False Bay so that they can be used in other articles on wikipedia as well. May give you a shout if I notice another that needs changing or needs location identified. --NJR ZA (talk) 14:49, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, no problem, Any info you want on any of my uploads, just ask and I will add what I can. I am a bit busy to go looking for them myself at the moment, but greatly appreciate your doing so. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 06:22, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]


I admired the phrase you inserted here: "Consensus is only possible is there is communication. The community has a right to be informed of the possibility of a change that may affect them"

This idea has now been removed from the nutshell here

The removal is currently being discussed here: Wikivoyage_talk:Consensus#Add: Communication of possible changes? -- Alice 07:17, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your apposite and perspicacious comments there ! -- Alice 21:48, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Diving in New Zealand[edit]

I notice that you've recently added some South Island material and a map; you should know that it is likely that SI regions will be changing in the next week or so: Talk:South_Island#Regions -- Alice 09:30, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

No worries, I will replace it with a more appropriate map showing the diving regions when I have drawn one. The diving regions do not often coincide with other regions, but the maps I added are better than nothing as a place-holder.• • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 09:36, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

use of IsPartOf[edit]

I see in a number of diving articles the use of the [[tl|IsPartOf}} template. This template is intended for location articles rather than travel topics. Now I can see the usefulness of navigating up the through the topics to the main Scuba diving page and do not want to disrupt all the work you have done but would you object to another navigation method? There is the {{related}} template, details at Wikivoyage:Related articles. Would you object if I change the travel topics to this template, or do you have a better suggestion?--Traveler100 (talk) 19:21, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Traveller100, You may not have noticed, but there are about four star class articles (see Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay, currently featured travel topic) among the dive guides which use the IsPartOf template, and as they used it before they were awarded star status, we can deduce that there was no objection to the use of the template at the time, and can assume consensus. It works for the purpose, It is logically appropriate and the precedence is solid. I agree that the breadcrumb system was devised for location articles, but if you look closely at the way the dive guide articles are structured, you will find that they have a parallel geographical hierarchy, not conceptually different to the main destination articles, so not only is the same system useful, but the parallel is extremely close. In fact most if not all of the dive guide articles consistently use the template. I don't see any real reason to change, but I am willing to consider reasoned arguments. I would make the counterproposal that the template should be used for any major travel topic which has a geographical hierarchy of articles, and that the policy article should be chaged to reflect the status quo. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 19:55, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think you make good points. Maybe the convention/policy should be changed. --Traveler100 (talk) 22:35, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Long articles[edit]

Hi Peter, I think it might be better to comment here than on Traveler100's page. I remember the same comment you were talking about, and it was in reference to the images or photo galleries in Singapore and Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay, made by Yvwv in Image_policy#Galleries. I see his point that the articles are a bit lengthy, but can't think of a good way to trim it down, especially when Singaporean cuisine is so crucial to a visit to Singapore. Hopefully you have a better idea for Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay :) - Torty3 (talk) 11:19, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Torty3, The right place to discuss the possibility of a split is on the talk page of the affected article, I just wanted the reference. Maybe you would like to comment on my suggestions. Cheers • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 12:03, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse my ignorance[edit]

Any idea of what is going on here?  ?? sats (talk) 09:00, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi sats, I dont know, but it does not look natural. I suspect enemy action. Perhaps a request for a steward to do a checkuser would show something interesting. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 09:09, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
sorry to have bothered - I suspect there is some legitimate and practical explanatiuon - they have been generated continuously since november the 11th the sheer number is staggering - I gave up at 30,000 by mid december... so the total of automatically generated users is very large (in excess of 100,00?). Whatever has been created should be explained - simply to allay any fears of something odd going on. If it is something straight forward all the better. sats (talk) 15:48, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
sincerest apology - the answer is at sats (talk) 16:11, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) No worries, better to ask and find out it isn't a problem than to assume it isn't when it is. I have asked a steward to look into it but I am getting the impression it is a natural and automatic consequence of the universal account system on all WMF projects. It would be nice to know that this is the case so I can rein in my paranoia. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 16:15, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nah dont be paranoid, I understand it is simply the wikimedia system updating user names may take ages yet... my query at meta was met with politeness and I was told to read the link I have just given to you. It doesnt in fact explain specifically the way that the wmf updating is working on wikivoyage - but assume that the full username list that other wikis have will be automatically loaded over time, it might take months yet... I think the automatically generated users term/label will be a something that might need to be added to the help:new user log or at the help:recent edit notes as something to ignore... as a wmf operation running ir the background... sats (talk) 16:28, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea, but it would be nice to be able to give an accurate explanation.
I guess you will not be personally welcoming them all ;-) • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 16:38, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
hahaha - thats more users than there are articles here wikivoyage by x3 or x4, or even higher if it keeps going the way it is... nah watching this enough to make me cold turkey on welcoming for at least a day or two.... sats (talk) 01:06, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cobblers Reef[edit]

Hello Peter What does this mean? re Cobblers Reef.

"This travel topic is an outline and should either be merged into an appropriate parent topic or else developed further. It has a template, but there is not enough information present for it to be of real use. It was last edited on 2013-02-17 and will be merged or deleted if not modified for one year. Please plunge forward and rescue it!"

I would suggest that there is a lot more reliable information than you will get for some time. No-one else has spent 10+ years collecting data and photos about a spectacular reef that only the locals dive round the year and don't publish. I'm quite happy to remove my "inadequate text" and use it somewhere else if you all wish. My photos that you have are all shrunk and you are welcome to them. I have retained the full size pictures.

The website in four weeks seems to have jumped pretty high up the Google list for something that is of no real use.

JMD —The preceding comment was added by Johnmartindavies (talkcontribs)

Hi John, I dont know, but will take a look and come back to you. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 05:17, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi John,
User:Traveler100 is busy with site-wide maintenence and adjustment of links and labels, The change on Cobblers Reef was part of this. It got a category label change which automatically displayed the message which alarmed you so. I have removed your message at the top of the page since that is not an appropriate place to leave a message of that sort. That should go on the discussion page. I have also re-rated the article to "usable topic" so the label is gone and replaced with a more appropriate one. You will get used to this sort of thing, which happens when a small number of people do the maintainence on a huge number of articles, and dont have the time to read through each article at the time to check how a global change will affect a particular article. The appropriate response is to query the change and find out what is happening. In this case it is not a problem. You get used to this after a while and deal with it without losing too much sleep.
By the way, Please sign your messages on talk pages by typing 4 tildes ~~~~ after the message. When you save the edit it automatically adds your official wikisignature/identification. This is the convention on this and all the other WMF wikis (Wikipedia, etc).
Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 05:37, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Peter, sorry for my breaches of etiquette, I will keep trying to learn. Thanks for restoring and explaining.
I must stop being paranoid.Best wishes John. Johnmartindavies 10:48, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
No problem John. A good way to pick up how to do things is to open a section on edit and see how other editors did it. If you look at this section you will see how the use of colons at the beginning of a line translate into indents. (like the tab key in a a word processor) • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 11:05, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
re Cobblers Reef. Peter I've printed as .pdfs for my own use 3 of your articles, Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay-Pinnacle-Gallery, Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay-Pinnacle, Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay. I've also printed off the relevant edit sections so as to study your techniques without continually risking disturbing the edits. I don't think I've disturbed the edits (sincerely hope not). When I've digested all this I will move on to Singapore. Johnmartindavies 10:49, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Hi John, You have done no damage. Have fun, and dont hesitate to ask if you have a problem. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 11:31, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You're a Star![edit]

The Special Barnstar of appreciation
      is awarded to Peter Southwood for tireless lucid rationality expressed in a most diplomatic manner!      

(as exemplified here) -- Alice 20:48, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Alice. I try to be fair and tolerant, but it is not always easy. I overcompensate by trying to be useful... ;-)

Amazingly, there now seems to be opposition to this rather obvious idea ! -- Alice 02:37, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

A bit surprising, but within their rights. I would have thought those comments pretty uncontroversial, but you never know till you try. You get that quite often when you plunge forward. It is an odd policy in that something is recommended as a guiding principle that so often meets with strong opposition. It is one of the apparent internal contradictions of wiki culture I guess. I still think it is a good and necessary guiding principle, which should be exercised often enough that people remember it and recognise it, but also keep in mind that reaction should be expected at least part of the time. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 07:40, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Very sage and balanced as usual, Peter.
I might add that the reaction often depends on who is doing the plunging forward too - but I wouldn't possibly expect you to comment (grin).
I think I'll take a short wikibreak until all this puppetry nonsense is laid to rest. -- Alice 08:05, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
Reactions tend to be influenced by the subject, the specific wording, the plunger and the reactor. Unfortunately some are less rational than others. I try to remember to read my responses as if they were written to me by someone else before posting them and sometimes I wait overnight before responding. First draft doesn't often make it to the save button. Editing articles is so much easier and more fun. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 08:35, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Underwater diving in Egypt[edit]

Thanks for correcting a failure of mine at Commons. I added other Egyptian scuba diving sites categories to Underwater diving. --RolandUnger (talk) 14:26, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Roland, It was a small matter to move the few files you miscategorised compared to the large numbers I had miscategorised myself. Cheers • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 15:23, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Superfluous images[edit]

Hi there. I'd like to draw your attention to this discussion about how many images are needed for dive guides. Thanks. Texugo (talk) 12:52, 16 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Texugo, I have been watching the development of the Cobblers Reef article since the start, as an interesting experiment that I don't want to unduly influence, as it is basically compliant with our guiding principles, and generally harmless where it doesn't precisely follow the guidelines. I have also commented on your above linked page. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 09:21, 17 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hey man![edit]

This. Thanks, PrinceGloria (talk) 18:12, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your hard work![edit]

PrinceGloria has already mentioned this above, but I think you deserve a barncompass...

The Wikivoyage Barncompass
Thank you for all your hard (and dare I say tedious?) work going through all of the banners currently in use and for your efforts to standardise how we use them. Your dedication is really appreciated! :) Nick talk 22:17, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 22:21, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I do not envy you renaming all of those banners, so thanks as well from me for taking on that task. -- Ryan • (talk) • 20:19, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am the only Wikivoyager that I know of with filemover rights on Commons, so until someone else shows up I guess I do it or it doesn't happen. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 20:38, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, --Andyrom75 (talk) 17:31, 11 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Could you put some naming examples in particular for the disambiguator? It couldn't be enough clear.
Furthermore, thinking on people that do not speak English fluently, specify if the description can be optional or not. In the negative case, at least a set of basic acceptable words (e.g. view, panorama, etc...). --Andyrom75 (talk) 11:18, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am busy working on it. If you have more ideas keep them coming, preferably on the expedition talk page. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 11:42, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, thanks, --Andyrom75 (talk) 12:14, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I need an "admin-favour"[edit]

Could you delete the redirect that I've created (San Marcos la Laguna) after a renaming of the main page? The right one is the original with the capital letter. Thanks, --Andyrom75 (talk) 09:19, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I could, but is that not a plausible search string for the destination? We generally keep those as redirects for people who are unsure of the correct spelling. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 10:11, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Just to weigh in, a search is not case-sensitive so would bring the user to the correct page without the redirect. However, there's always a possibility that the capitalisation will be missed if someone links to it in the future. James Atalk 10:16, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks James, I will add that useful snippet to the help page. My guess is that we don't want to encourage links to redirects so I should delete the page? • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 10:26, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. And I guess so. I find it extremely unlikely such a case would arise anyhow. James Atalk 11:47, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes Done • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 12:52, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image in an article?[edit]

I'm reviewing some potential pages to be removed/redirected, and I was wondering why have you created this page? --Andyrom75 (talk) 12:50, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is experimental. I am looking at the possible ways of displaying a reasonably large map in a printed guide, without cluttering the article with high bandwidth images. Using an auxiliary map page was the first idea that looked like it might work. I need to find out what width to specify. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 12:58, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not skilled on paper version, because by now I've focused my attention on PC (90%) and mobile (10%), so I'm not sure to understand what you were trying to do. Were you trying to print the map next to the text or in a separate page? --Andyrom75 (talk) 15:12, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am not skilled on the paper or e-book version either, hence not getting very far. There are lots of maps which will print out too small to be useful on paper or pdf or whatever. And obviously one cannot click on them to enlarge, so I thought to have an extra page which would be printed along with the article, to display the largest conveniently possible map. It would generally never be accessed on-line, and would normally not have a link from the article. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 16:31, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ahhh, I think I've got your point, but I think that the only way out is to print the map in a dedicated full A4 page. At least this is what I'm doing when I need to print a map (not necessarely a wiki-map). --Andyrom75 (talk) 19:46, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Re-naming banners[edit]

Peter, I can see you have to re-name masses of files I uploaded with stupid names. I am really sorry for wasting your time like this. I hope the new ones won't cause problems anymore. Danapit (talk) 10:31, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Danapit, Don't feel too bad, you were not the only one. There was no guideline at the time, and everyone just did what looked like a good idea at the time. It is less work to rename than to find and crop a good banner. I took a look at a few of your newer banners. Some of the names would be better if you identified that the place shown is a national park or mountain range, rather than a city. Cheers • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 11:55, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Policies page[edit]

I see you have reverted my change of the Wikivoyage:Policies page, but I'm not sure why. The Sockpuppets page is a section of the Wikivoyage:Checkuser policy. The Policies page lists only policy pages, not sections of those. I think the Policies page is long enough already, if we're going to add sections and chapters of individual policy pages it's going to be a looong list. Globe-trotter (talk) 12:34, 20 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Globe-trotter. The purpose of the Policies page is a directory to find policies and guidelines, not just a listing of policy pages. Sockpuppet policy is something people will want to find, so I think it should be listed there, even if it doesn't have a page of its own. I think it more likely that people will look for policy on sockpuppets than on checkuser. If the list gets unmanageably long, we could split it, perhaps into Policy and Manual of Style directories. At present I don't think it is too long, but I wouldn't oppose a split provided both sections are linked from the sidebar.• • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 12:59, 20 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Peter, is it really necessary to change perfectly good filenames like File:Ottawa National War Memorial banner.jpg to File:Ottawa banner National War Memorial.jpg? LtPowers (talk) 15:44, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi LtPowers, It is not necessary to change any banner filenames that comply with commons requirements, but I feel that if I am changing them systematically to comply with a specification, there must be a line somewhere, and I have chosen to follow the specification structure of locality banner description, otherwise I will not know which to change and which to leave. I am not bothering to change cases where there may be a capital out of place or words separated by hyphens or underscores, or when the word Wikivoyage is included before banner, but as there have been no serious counter-suggestions to the naming guidelines, I am trying to be consistent with them.
Have there been any practical problems as a result of name changes? I have been fairly careful. There shouldn't be any bad links, but I can't check every link that is made by the renaming script.
If you think that the position of the word banner in the filename doesn't matter, that is open to discussion. I have already explained why I think that it is useful to split the location and description parts of the name, and there are several people who agree that the location part is necessary and the description is desirable. My concern is that if the names are not harmonized fairly consistently, and as soon as possible, some people will copy the formatting which is less useful and never get into the habit of using useful filenames and we will end up with a huge collection of banners that will never be used because it is easier to make a new one than to find one that fits.
Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 17:13, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A discussion of interest[edit]

Please see Wikivoyage_talk:Sister_project_links#Inline_links_to_Wikipedia. --Piotrus (talk) 13:53, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Disappeared Banners[edit]

Hi Peter, do you know what has happened to the banners of Pantelleria and Trapani (and many others)? I can't see any track on commons as well. --Andyrom75 (talk) 07:28, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I will have a look and get back to you. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 07:34, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
See [3] & [4]. Pantelleria was deleted for lacking a licence (can be replaced if licence added). Trapani was based on a copyvio. Seems like both were legitimate speedy deletions. Maybe the others are similar? If you get me a list I can look. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 07:52, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, Trapani was edited by Asdefyn who uploaded masses of pictures without attribution from the Internet to commons. They were deleted. [5]. Pantelleria file was probably deleted for the same reason, although I wasn't following this particular case. --Danapit (talk) 07:44, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your quick feedback. Just for curiosity, there's a particular place/page where I should look to see this kind of info or just a commons admin can look at it? --Andyrom75 (talk) 10:27, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am not an admin on commons, just a file mover (it is not difficult to become a filemover, and it is quite useful to have a few on any project). Anyone can look at a file name to see if it was deleted, who deleted it, when etc. Go to Special pages, click on Logs, select deletion log, and enter the file name. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 10:41, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Peter,

hope everything is fine. I work lately a bit on the broken links and saw that a couple of your dive sites show up with broken links. Could you have a look at this at False Bay most be your home;) There are also some other dive sites with broken links, so it would be great if you could take care of the pic change there as well. Thank you very much in advance and regards, jan (talk) 09:32, 16 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi jan. No major complaints... I will try to fix the broken links on the False Bay sites, the UK link is waiting on a transfer from WP, I tried but couldn't get it to work, so waiting on a bot to do it. The two templates - do I need to put in a dummy name or do we just accept that they will have broken links?
Peter, i would prefer to delete the broken links if not the move you expect lasts more than three months. I use the category to see which pages need attention and would be happen to tick of listed items. If it has a good cause then they can stay. Thank you and best regards, jan (talk) 11:54, 16 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have sorted out the Templates and the False Bay dive sites. This page has redlinks to a user page which was never created. Not much I can do about that. I think that's all. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 12:42, 16 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Banners on gallery pages[edit]

I'm asking you since I think you are the only one who has created gallery pages, of which there are only 3 so far. Do we want banners on them or not? Two of them have banners, and a third one is not technically a gallery page but has been tagged as such, containing a giant sized map. For purposes of maintenance categories, statistics, etc., it would be easiest if either all or none have banners. Or perhaps we could let the actual gallery pages have banners, but get rid of this non-gallery one and instead link to either the file page or the file itself? Texugo (talk) 21:01, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Texugo, I had forgotten about that page. It is not really a gallery. It was an experimental page for use in printed versions, but came to a dead end because the software for creating the printed version could not deal with it, I guess the thing to do at this stage is delete the page until more work has been done on the book software.
Other gallery pages probably should have a banner as they are article pages in mainspace, but they are part of an article, so I think the same banner as the main article would be appropriate. Cheers • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 05:23, 8 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I fully agree with your assessment. By the way, could you please chime in with your opinion here as well? Thanks! Texugo (talk) 13:01, 8 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Rename banner[edit]

In my user-talk (it:Discussioni_utente:Lkcl_it#estrazione elenco) I (with a big help of Andyrom75) have created a list with the Italian pages containing a banner with a wrong name (Banner_place). Could you rename them? thanks --Lkcl it (talk) 12:15, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks --Lkcl it (talk) 14:10, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User merge[edit]

Hi Peter - could your respond to a comment about merging user accounts at Wikivoyage talk:User account migration#Request for Rename "(WT-en) Pbsouthwood" > "Pbsouthwood"? Since you have a user page and talk page in both accounts, the old pages will be lost during a merge so I wanted to make sure you have either archived them or don't care if they are deleted. -- Ryan • (talk) • 03:57, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Hallo. I suggested that I change the banner of Akita (prefecture). Please refer to Talk:Akita (prefecture).--OskNe (talk) 10:41, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have replied at Talk:Akita (prefecture). • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 12:06, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

cleanup of page with red links[edit]

Peter, just a small tying up of loose ends. Could you edit User:Pbsouthwood/(WT-en) Pbsouthwood archives and remove the red linked images. Either nowiki the area of text or place a colon in front of the File/Image name which will keep the link but remove from the stats. --Traveler100 (talk) 11:27, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I can see none of the red links on that page are for images. I have tried, but I don't know if it has worked, as the category Pages with broken file links remains. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 12:44, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Try Photographer's reef route.png in the Dive site route maps section. --Traveler100 (talk) 11:50, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I didn't see that. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 13:46, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think it may need to be nowikied out inside a gallery. Sorry did not think such a small thing would be such a pain of a task. --Traveler100 (talk) 16:04, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, that seems to have worked. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 16:33, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

non-urgent cleanup[edit]

Special:BrokenRedirects lists a couple of dozen whose names start with "User:(WT-en) Pbsouthwood". Pashley (talk) 20:42, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the notification, I will delete them. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 06:14, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am looking at Special:ListRedirects, getting rid of ones that have been around since WT days and are not linked from anywhere. There are a few dozen with names like CT Dive site A-Frame. Can they go? Pashley (talk)

I have deleted them. Thanks for pointing this out. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 06:37, 8 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

CategoryTree extension[edit]


Do you know if any progress was made to add an option to eliminate category links when using the CategoryTree extension?
  • I was looking at the extension for a few days (on an adventure of my own) and came across your discussion in mediawiki about this extension...
  • Thought it might be useful in a sidebar as long as the tree depth wasn't very deep or actually within an article page...
  • Have a great day... Cheers! - Matroc (talk) 05:36, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Matroc, Sorry I have not been following this development recently, so I have no idea. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 07:44, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Upload files, Upload Wizard?[edit]

Wikimedia Commons logo

Hello! Sorry for writing in English. As you're an administrator here, please check the message I left on MediaWiki talk:Licenses and the village pump. Thanks, Nemo 19:22, 18 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

geo tags on diving pages[edit]

Hi, you may have notice that this month we are trying to get {{geo}} coordinates on all pages. Wondering if you could help with the dive articles without geo template? --Traveler100 (talk) 11:18, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Traveler100:, it might be possible to find coordinates for as few of those sites that are reasonably accurate, but most of them are only available approximately. How accurately is needed? I cannot guarantee that someone could use them to find the site. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 04:03, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
if no accurate values available then just set the zoom value so it covers the region it is in. --Traveler100 (talk) 07:14, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Batfish pinnacle - not found
  • Disneyland - not found
  • Greentree - not found
  • Island Rock -24.1078 35.5016
  • North Greentree - not found
  • Paindane Express - not found
  • Pao Reef not found
  • The Office - not found
  • Xstacy Reef - not found
  • MV Gemsbok
  • South West Reefs - not known
  • Tiger Ledge - not found
  • Howards Castle -30.282 30.808
  • Fern Reef -30.308 30.768
  • Canyons - not found
  • Nebo -30.2409 30.8211
  • Antons -27.528 32.68
  • Protea banks -30.828 30.523
  • Produce wreck - -30.2498 30.8298
  • Bhanga Nek -27.0133 32.8669
  • Hopscotch -27.528 32-6902
  • Raggies Cave -30.2619 30.8279
  • Two Mile Reef -27.528 32.68
  • Leadsman -27.8737 32.6063
  • North sands -30.2595 30.8275

Care to comment here?[edit]

Talk:Boating#Rename_to_Boating? Pashley (talk) 00:51, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Been there, done that. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 14:40, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]


@Pbsouthwood: I'm calling on you because you're a sysop in en.wikipedia. I've been trying for over a week to report to en.wikipedia sysops new information about an old LTA using proxies and socks cross-wiki who's recently restarted disrupting. I've provided differences between revisions proving the identicalness of his old and new edits, I've quoted the admins who'd dealt with him in the past and blocked his proxies and socks, so I'm not inventing anything. But every time I try reporting this issue to en.wikipedia sysops, they block me. Can yu guess why? Because the first account I'd created to report this vandal was blocked because "not here to contribute to the encyclopedia" (?!), while the others I've tried creating were all immediately blocked for "sockpuppetry"! Do you understand? Me, the one who wanted to report a vandalic sockpuppetteer to sysops, continuously blocked for vandalism! That's absurd... No, better: kafkian, literally. I've never ever disrupted nor made vandalisms anywhere, but I'm being continously prevented from reporting this issue, both to single sysops in their talk page and publicly by using the special pages existing for this purpose. I'm wordless. And the sysops who keep blocking me are always the same, as if their aim was to prevent anyone from reporting this particular vandal, but I can't believe this, not at all, not in Wikipedia. That's why I'm asking for your help. What can I do? I have no bad intentions, the only thing I want is to report the new identities of this well know vandal, nothing else, and I've never done anything else with my blocked accounts. May I tell you the information I know about this vandal, including differences? You'll be able to see for yourself and judge whether what I'm saying is true or false. Then you might either take care of this vandal yourself or report him to another sysop or a higher level user. Please, give me a hand, and a chance to prove I'm well-meaning! Let me know in case you can and want to help me out with this issue, once solved it I won't disturb you nor any other sysop, try me and let me show you I'm saying the truth. Thanks in advance if you will! 21:54, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please identify yourself by your original user name, so I have some idea of who I am dealing with. I must inform you that sockpuppetry and blocking are not my area of expertise, and I will have to take advice on this from more experienced admins in this field. This may involve checkuser investigation by someone other than me. At present I have no actionable information on your problem. You may decide that I am not the person to approach for this, or supply me with evidence. I cannot guarantee anything. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 14:27, 8 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You can read my "case" in the dedicated SPI, you'll find all the information about me you may need, written by admins. If after reading you'll think I'm not trustworthy, I won't insist and I'll leave you alone, but I'm confident in your eyes: you'll see that all my edits consisted in trying reporting to admin that LTA's case, and my only guilt was creating new accounts after the first was blocked (which was blocked without any valid reason, just applying the principle "assume BAD faith" or DISapplying the principle "assume good faith"). But perhaps, as you said, you aren't the right person for this kind of request. Have you got any advice for me, anyway? 18:18, 8 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Can you have a another careful look at the templates this uses, because it's throwing out LintErrors which is typically indicative of a template that is generating inconsistent or malformed HTML? Thanks ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:46, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@ShakespeareFan00:, I will take a look, but don't really know what I am looking for. I do see that I had not finished converting the page, so will finish that first. If the problem continues after that please let me know, and if possible, let me know what it is actually doing. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 05:37, 17 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]


Hi Peter, you reverted my style on an edit of Scuba Diving / Barbados. From Talk I felt I had three votes in favour of my style (one being my own) and saw no counter-argument. Simply italicising a header does not tell the reader there's an article hiding beneath; if that convention is used elsewhere on WV I've yet to come across it. Please explain your rationale if you feel we should hew to the former style. Grahamsands (talk) 21:47, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Grahamsands, I assume you are referring to Scuba diving#Barbados. If you are willing to convert the whole article to a consistent and logical style, I have no objection. What we don't need is people making one or two style changes and then abandoning the job unfinished for someone else to fix. It looks like you are the kind of person to finish a job if you take it on. See also my comments on Talk:Scuba diving#Listiness uncured, and thanks for taking an interest in scuba topics. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 08:27, 5 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Simple Map[edit]

I have been doing some testing with maps - I created the following MAP (I thought it might be useful as a tool for you in your work and possibly of some interest?). It is not exactly wikivoyage standard map protocol/procedure. It was based on 'Diving in South Africa' and I can give you a copy before I destroy my test. Let me know what you think?... Thanks -- Matroc (talk) 06:38, 27 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Matroc, That is an interesting tool. Where can I see the code? Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 06:52, 27 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Copied here: Diving in South Africa

There are a few caveats used to create it but I can answer them should you have any questions? -- Matroc (talk) 06:58, 27 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the link to my User page - the code was copied onto your Talk page earlier -- Cheers! Matroc (talk) 04:56, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Matroc, I am playing around with it to see what I can do. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 11:46, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Matroc, A question - the displayed map seems to use the coordinate parameters converted to ddmmss and name parameter from the called {{Mapframe}} as a caption, but it strings them together without a space between longitude and name. Is it possible to make it display a space?
I tried but I don't see any way to get a space in there... I think it has to do with the software? ... So for now I don't think so.
What is the significance of the /map/0 in the links? Do values other than 0 have any use?
Most of the mapframes on article pages are usually 1st on the article page or 0 index... when you open a mapframe (enlarged) you will see the url. That is pretty much what i selected for the links. Each mapframe and mapshape is apparently indexed -- the url ....#/map/0 says find the map indexed at zero on the article page. - So yes the 0 here is significant - Normally I don't think you would use multiple mapframes on a page. It becomes important to watch what you use as far as the index goes. If it can't find link by the map index; just the article page will be displayed.
The next position in the url #/map/0/15 will zoom to level 15
the next two url positions are latitude and longitude.. #/map/0/15/-34.275450/18.370167 would actually zoom to level 15 for Albatros Rock... I didn't for the most part put in zoom levels and lat/long but they can be added.
Another completely different test I did Inca Trail has different zoom levels and latitude/longitude if you want to see it. I will leave it available. Note: there is s difference between #/map and #/maplink. One is whole map and other to positions on a map. Have fun!
If there are a very large number of links in the popup, as for Cape Town, could they be accommodated by another level of popups or a dropdown or something? • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 16:21, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A definite limitation in the size of the description box that we both have found - that's why i had those 5 special markers in my original test because of the large number of places I wanted to link to... Perhaps use multiple Points for Cape Town real close to each other in a different color containing lists or perhaps a Point for sections of the area - instead of just Cape Town? You can link from one Point to another on the same map (see the Inca Trail example). From Cape Town go to a Point(s) or even a symbol on map that has index - A-C, D-G etc. and have a link back to Cape Town... Will see if I can put something in your test...
  • Added a star shape with A-F listings as an example with a link back to Cape Town -- In Cape Town Point I put a link to that particular star shape to show that you can go from place to place... There would be multiple stars (other shapes) holding different lists with links between them and Cape Town Point. I can produce other shapes fairly easily of different colors, sizes etc. or you can just use Points to do the same function. Star was drawn using a module I wrote years ago. -- Matroc (talk) 06:02, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What I did was just a test of some ideas and thought it could be used as a tool. There are some limitations of course and probably not a prime candidate for production use. Also looking at the Map module to see if could be used. Sorry about the crazy introduction to (Kartographer) JSON code which is what a lot of our listings etc. output as a result. -- Matroc (talk) 03:44, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, I will play with it to see what I can do. If something useful comes out of it that is a bonus. Often when I try a different way of looking at a group of articles I get some idea that can be worked over to make something a bit better in some way. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 16:42, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds normal for me too! - A tool I use on my desktop is FreeMind which might be useful. -- Best wishes - Cheers! -- Matroc (talk) 08:15, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed Broken Maps found in Category:Pages with broken maps[edit]

  • Fixed several articles with JSON error - had html comment before closing </maplink> and Templates you were using in which I removed the ' in the show= parameter -- all looks good at this time. -- Matroc (talk) 03:14, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks Matroc, I find those rather tricky to debug. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 18:45, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes I found it tricky to debug them as well - I have also looked at the samples located above on this page (indicated by Couldn't parse JSON: Control character error, possibly incorrectly encoded messages above) as well.... They should be working fine without any issues; however, it appears that the Kartographer extension has been edited (changed) over the past few months and something was left out of the parsing of the description field (maybe other areas that existed before and worked). Yuch! Going to see if that can be repaired.
    • As a note: I saw that you grabbed all of the maplinks via your template for an article -- if you wish to include only one particular maplink instead for an article, that can easily accomplished by transclusion. -- Cheers! -- Matroc (talk) 02:22, 28 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Dive articles[edit]

I though we had defined dive articles as destination articles rather than travel topics? With the exception of the general articles about diving that is. Do you want to change so they are counted as topics not destinations? Fine with the change, and I see we have said this would also work, but will require a complex change to Wikivoyage:Maintenance panel and all the region expedition pages. --Traveler100 (talk) 05:38, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Traveler100, where is this recorded? If I was aware I have forgotten, which is entirely possible. If this was a consensus decision it should be mentioned in an obvious place, possible all the obvious places, as one generally only looks at one of them. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 07:15, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Repinging Traveler100 (I think I mucked it up first time) I think dive articles as destination articles will actually work better, though it would be nice if we had breadcrumbs trails which could bifurcate, as that might work best. I have put an explanation at Wikivoyage:What is a dive guide?#Breadcrumb navigation, which with any luck I will remember. Please take a look and comment if you think it can be improved. Cheers • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 11:45, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Conservation Species[edit]

Hi Peter

I hope you are keeping well in these crazy times.

I am putting together a list of ecologically important marine species and their habitats for the GCBR (Gouritz Cluster Biosphere Reserve). They are looking to apply to the UN to extend their reach into not only the coastal environment, but all the way to the continental slope, which will be a great boost towards conservation on the South coast.

I'm trying to gather up photos of all the significant marine sites. The areas I'm struggling to find photos of is the Agulhas Bank Complex and Agulhas Mud Bank. I am hoping with some of the dives you have been doing, you may be able to help me source photos?

There are also a few key species I am struggling to gather photos of, that you may also be able to help me with? I have listed them below:

Fine branching hydrocoral (Stylaster subviolacea) Agar animal (Cephalodiscus gilchristi) Cape cog shell (Calliotropis granolirata) Agulhas bank hermit crab (Paguristes sp.) Stalked cauliflower soft coral (Gersemia liltvedi)

Of course, all photos will be credited.

Thank you very much for your time, and have a wonderful day.

Many thanks Esther

Hi EstherKFA unfortunately I have never had the opportunity to dive those areas, and have no photos of those species. Have you tried Kerry Sink at SANBI? Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 19:18, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Peter - I have reached out to her but she's quite busy so hasn't been able to help. However, she seems to be the only person with these photos so I'll try reaching out to her again. Thank you for your help.

EstherKFA Kerry is always busy, but also quite dedicated to her work, so if you are lucky she will get someone else at SANBI to help you. Unfortunately I don't know who else at SANBI might have access to what you need, while Kerry is the most likely person I know who probably does. The only other person I can think of who may know who to go to is Georgina Jones, but I dont think she will have dived those areas either. Have you looked for the species on iNaturalist? there is just a chance they may have something. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 08:38, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Check some diving info?[edit]

Is Coron#Stay_safe reasonably correct? Pashley (talk) 04:51, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Pashley: It looks fine. That is a generally fair comment about wreck diving, unless there is something unusual about those wrecks. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 18:00, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

JJM Júnior Reef[edit]

Hi. I believe Photographer's reef is also know as JJM Reef named by John Hurter, Josh (I can't remember his surname) and Mike Wright (Myself). Mickeymill (talk) 06:14, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Mike , the lead section of Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Photographer's Reef states The dive site Photographer's Reef also known as JJM Reef is an inshore rocky reef in the Seaforth area of Simon's Town on the False Bay coast of the Cape Peninsula, near Cape Town in the Western Cape province of South Africa. So yes, it is, but only the old-timers ever use the name these days. Thanks for the names, and if you ever remember what Josh's surname is, let me know. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 06:49, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

How we will see unregistered users[edit]


You get this message because you are an admin on a Wikimedia wiki.

When someone edits a Wikimedia wiki without being logged in today, we show their IP address. As you may already know, we will not be able to do this in the future. This is a decision by the Wikimedia Foundation Legal department, because norms and regulations for privacy online have changed.

Instead of the IP we will show a masked identity. You as an admin will still be able to access the IP. There will also be a new user right for those who need to see the full IPs of unregistered users to fight vandalism, harassment and spam without being admins. Patrollers will also see part of the IP even without this user right. We are also working on better tools to help.

If you have not seen it before, you can read more on Meta. If you want to make sure you don’t miss technical changes on the Wikimedia wikis, you can subscribe to the weekly technical newsletter.

We have two suggested ways this identity could work. We would appreciate your feedback on which way you think would work best for you and your wiki, now and in the future. You can let us know on the talk page. You can write in your language. The suggestions were posted in October and we will decide after 17 January.

Thank you. /Johan (WMF)

18:14, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

VFD for dive site articles[edit]

Wikivoyage:Votes_for_deletion#Sub-articles_of_Diving_Aliwal_Shoal Pashley (talk) 07:01, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Attempt to revert vandalism was marked as "harmful"[edit]

I was attempting to revert vandalism on Wuhan from a vandal, but my edits made there were marked as "harmful" and disallowed. I am unsure what to do to remove further vandalism from the user, but please revert the vandalism on the page. ChrisWx (talk) 21:57, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Update: Edits were reverted, but the filter issue when I revert vandalism should still be addressed when you have the time to do so. ChrisWx (talk) 22:45, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@ChrisWx: Your edits were disallowed since the original text contained a string commonly used as an LTA. Normally, this shouldn't be a problem if you have GR or is autopatrolled locally, but your account isn't. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 23:38, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, thanks for letting me know. By the way, what is "GR"? ChrisWx (talk) 23:40, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies for the jargon – GR means global rollback. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 23:46, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You're good, thanks for telling me what it means! ChrisWx (talk) 00:14, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure why this got to be here, but assume it is sorted and needs no action from me.• • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 08:39, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]