User talk:ArticCynda

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Hello, ArticCynda! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. If you are familiar with Wikipedia, take a look over some of the differences here. Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:34, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, welcome, and thanks for starting an article about Kraainem‎‎. It already looks interesting. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:28, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the support, I'll keep contributing to my best efforts! ArticCynda (talk) 23:57, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Hotel pictures[edit]

Hello, and thanks again for your wonderful contributions to the Sarajevo guide!

I'm kind of doubtful about the 3 hotel photos in that article, though, as well as the promotional-sounding captions of two of those photos. Please have a look at Wikivoyage:Listings#Images:

Images of businesses, including hotels and their bedrooms, should generally not be posted as illustrations inside the section. The only exceptions are if the business is a well-known attraction in its own right (the example given is "The Raffles is an icon of Singapore — the Holiday Inn is not"), or if the image is of a type of accommodation that is unusual and unique to the region. In the second case, identifying the lodgings where the picture was taken by name is not necessary.

Which if any of the photos are of hotels that could be listed in "See" if they weren't providing sleeping accommodations? And if so, what should their captions say? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:10, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

You're right, after thinking about it, the added value of the hotel pictures is indeed minimal. I read through your guidelines, and agree they would be a waste of paper if the article were printed, so I've removed them from the article by commenting them in source. The exception is Hotel Europe, since it was mentioned in the "See" section under "Taslihan" because it was involved in excavations of that site, so I've left that picture since Taslihan/Bezestan is in the foreground on it.
The promotional sounding caption of Pansion Stari Grad is derived from my own experience since I stayed there for 5 days last summer, so I can personally testify about its from my experience as a guest. In that context, I don't have a problem with using phrases as "affordable and cozy hotel", since it is an opinion that may be of interest to other Wikivoyagers, and is not driven by financial gains (which your link to touting implied). ArticCynda (talk) 01:01, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for reading and thinking through this, and for your reply. The reason I linked the don't tout page is that the caption sounded like the way a hotel would word its own publicity. I would say that the word "affordable" should be avoided completely, as there is no clear meaning for it (see Wikivoyage:Words to avoid - affordable is one of them), and for whatever it's worth, if I chose to use the word "cozy" for the pansion's "Sleep" entry, I'd still leave it out of the caption. I won't be making a federal case out of this, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:26, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Valid point of view, I'll keep it in mind for future edits. I've already thought about the matter of adding hotels, particularly those one didn't stay in themselves yet (i.e. based on reviews on other websites). Is that an acceptable practice? I generally have the tendency to stick to adding attractions etc. I have visited myself, so that I'm sure they're worthwhile. But obviously, since one only stays in a single hotel during a typical city trip, that means "sleep" category lists will fill up very slowly, if at all. What's your opinion on that? ArticCynda (talk) 11:19, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes, it's definitely an acceptable practice. Cross-checking 2-3 hotel reservations sites for ratings is a decent rough guide as to whether the hotels are good enough to list on this site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:03, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
If an article has no listings in a certain field whatsoever, I sometimes look at the city tourism website and check the website of one of the hotels listed there. Sure, it might be a dump or overpriced, but it's better than no listing at all. Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:32, 18 October 2017 (UTC)


That last sentence doesn't show as much kindness as I could wish. We all have our sore spots, and we're not being over-sensitive when we acknowledge that something hurts us, regardless of whether that sore spot is religion, the "correct" border in a disputed territory, or anything else. Could I convince you to remove it or change it? (Please feel free to blank this after you've read it.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:56, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

You might have misunderstood the comment, WhatamIdoing, because I do acknowledge that we all have our sore spots and sensitivities, which I of course respect. But I think we can agree that personal issues should never be the reason to censor Wikivoyage for everyone, just because one reader feels uncomfortable about specific aspects of the contents. And that is exactly what's going on now: certain people using political correctness as an excuse to advocate censoring Wikivoyage, because they're feeling sensitive about silly things like historic quotes. If someone feels offended by a line of text that's been written down hundreds of thousands of years ago in some book, then I'm confident saying that not the text is the problem, but the person being oversensitive about it. And given the fact that so much time and energy is being wasted on silly issues like these, it's justified to occasionally remind the discussion of the common denominator principle. Wikivoyage is a travel guide for 7 billion people, and a few individuals with unreasonabile sensitivities or phobias don't have the right to dictate what should or should not be in it. ArticCynda (talk) 11:08, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
I'm not concerned about your intent. I'm concerned about the effect, regardless of whether you intended that effect. I believe that reasonable adults might read your comment and disagree with the idea that a travel guide that is responsive to other people's concerns would have to be one "for Oversensitive IndividualsTM". Being fully responsive might indeed require forking the project to create a "Travel Guide for Atheists" or (yet another) "Travel Guide for Gay People" or whatever, and that's fine. But it would not require creating a "Travel Guide for Oversensitive Individuals". It's unkind to say that people who express concern are being over-sensitive, or silly, or unreasonable, or phobic, or anything else, just for disliking a particular detail. Those are all disparaging words. People at Wikivoyage are allowed to hold opinions without being publicly disparaged for it.
I think that you should just quietly remove that sentence from your comment. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:31, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
The effect it has is exactly the one I had intended: stopping the pointless discussion and time wasting by inviting Wikivoyagers to think about the issue using a slighly provocative statement. As you pointed out yourself, it wouldn't be realistic to create Wikivoyage forks for atheists or gays or any other group. But that's not a problem, because it can be therapeutic for those oversensitive individuals to face their issues during the collaborative effort of contributing to Wikivoyage. Anyone is welcome to contribute, regardless whether they're atheists, communists, philantropists or a combination of those: we aim for an audience that is mature enough to have a rational look at the content, and understand that it was not written with the intention to offend anyone. Whoever can't do that is probably too immature to hang out on the internet, and definitely too immature to travel. Which means we shouldn't waste time on those trouble makers, confirming my earlier point, WhatamIdoing. I do miss the days when nobody was ever offended on the internet, because back then it was used solely by reasonable adults instead of sheltered kids... ArticCynda (talk) 07:42, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
Are you sure that "stopping the discussion" is the only effect you had with that sentence? From where I'm sitting, it might be altogether too accurate to add "convincing people that ArticCynda is a jerk" to the list of effects you produced. Is that what you wanted? WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:55, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
There should be no reason for that, since it only phrased an opinion and pointed out an active issue using rational arguments. Of course there will always be individuals who can't take criticism, usually the same immature and/or oversensitive individuals who have been the central issue in this entire discussion, coincidentially. I don't value their opinion enough to care if they think I'm a jerk or not; I'd rather advise them to return to the cotton candy land they came from so their feelings won't get hurt if others criticize their utopic beliefs and world views. ArticCynda (talk) 19:38, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
I disagree with pretty much every word that you've said here, and my opinion of your character has declined sharply in the course of this discussion. Claiming that your insults don't matter because they're "phrased [as] an opinion" and "rational arguments" doesn't change the fact that you are showing disdain for people who disagree with you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:48, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
Please follow the discussions I'm participating in, such as this one for example, or the hotel related discussion right above this one, and you'll see that I'm very open to people with other opinions and can be easily convinced of the point of view of others, if they support their opinion with strong arguments. Good arguments are they key to turn disagreements into consensus. Unfortunately, "I feel offended by anything and everything just because" is not an argument to justify censoring Wikivoyage content. ArticCynda (talk) 08:02, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
IMO saying that something – anything – hurts you personally is okay. Expressing your dislike for something, regardless of your reason for it, does not mean that people who disagree get to engage in name-calling and try to drive you out of the project (or, to use your words for that, to be told "to return to the cotton candy land they came from").
My complaint about your treatment of other contributors has nothing to do with forming consensus for what belongs in an article. My complaint is about your disrespectful behavior. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:03, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I agree that simply expressing a dislike, regardless of the reason for it, should be anyone's right. There is, however, as I have explained before, an important difference between expressing a dislike for something, and forcing changes onto the Wikivoyage community because of it. If a substantial number of people feel the same way then it may be considered an argument to modify Wikivoyage contents. But that didn't seem to be the case in the discussion with the quotes: if a few individuals feel offended by a few lines of historic text written hundreds of years ago, then is it so inconceivable to you that not the text is the problem but the few individuals themselves? Let me illustrate it with an analogy that can perhaps be easier understood.

I feel very offended whenever I see Comic Sans used outside the comic books it was intended for. I feel repulsed and offended whenever I see ice cream stands with menus or nursery schools with banners using that font. But no matter how much I feel offended by it, something that you may consider silly, it does not give me the right to force those ice cream stands to change their menus. And neither does it give me the right to return at night to vandalize their menus and banners by painting them over in Liberation Sans! No, as a mature adult I recognize that, although I am offended, the majority of society is does not share my point of view, so I do not try to force my opinion on others. Instead, I simply walk away and look elsewhere.

So applying that example to the Wikivoyage case, if a few individuals feel offended by something that the majority of the community does not have an issue with, then simply press the backspace button on the keyboard to return to the previous page, look elsewhere, and the issue is solved. There is no need to try to force changes onto the community and censor Wikivoyage with political correctness as an argument. ArticCynda (talk) 17:17, 8 June 2018 (UTC)