Talk:South Korea

Archived discussions Talk:South Korea/Archive 2003-2012

Formatting and language conventions For articles about South Korea, please use the 24-hour clock to show times, e.g. 09:00-12:00 and 18:00-00:00. Please show prices in this format: ₩100 and not KRW 100, 100 won, or 100원. Please use American spelling (color, labor, traveled, realize, center, analog, program).

Removed the factbook. (WT-en) Professorbiscuit

War

South Korea is very much defined by the Korean war in the 50's and the continued standoff until today. However it is very difficult to give good travel advice around the risk of war for potential travelers. My own opinion is that all out war is very unlikely, although there will almost certainly be ongoing limited hostilities in future, most of which will not affect any travelers to South Korea. How can we make travelers aware of the risk of war without alarming them with this scenario? --116.48.219.67 04:17, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Films

I saw the book section, so I thought a good way to learn about Korea is to see some films as well. The list is NOT 'best films of Korea' but rather 'Films that will show you some of Korea's history and society'. Please feel free to add films, however please do not add hundreds of films since there are better places on the internet for people to find those. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:37, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Pagebanner size & content

This page banner is the wrong size... Texugo (talk) 17:49, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm also not sure about the image itself. The town of Daejeon doesn't really showcase the country. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:30, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, it's not that attractive. Do you have any images of Jeju that could be good banners? Or an image of a traditional Korean temple, perhaps? Or some more attractive modern skyline, or an image of a night market, showing Korean food? Those are just some ideas. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:42, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm not an expert photographer, therefore I rely on images already in Wikimedia and can't find too many. How about this? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 05:44, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

That image looks like it'll be mostly stones. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:16, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

There is a full gallery of South Korean Panoramic pictures here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Panoramics_in_South_Korea . Do any appeal to you? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:12, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

My favorites are these views of Daegu, which remind me of classic Korean art:

.

If you'd prefer a city view, this one is a night view of Seoul:

And this one is a great panorama of Busan, showing it as an exciting, beautiful city:

.

This is an interesting mixture of the traditional and the modern. I don't like it as much, on the face of it, but I'd be willing to look at a banner version of it, which would probably cut off some of the less-interesting top of the frame:

.

This is a nice beach but not really what anyone would expect of a banner photo for Korea:

.

And that's all the photos in that gallery that I think merit comment. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:40, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I reformatted your comment to make the pictures easier to see. I really like the Busan one, which I have already used for the Busan page. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to work so well as a banner. (Please see the Busan page to see what I mean). The Deagu pictures look nice, although for the most part they do not show too much of Korea, just mountains and trees. I'm thinking to look wider on the internet for panorama pictures of South Korea that are under the creative commons license. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:48, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

The current banner is pretty bad (in my opinion). It is fuzzy and doesn't really give a feel for the country.

I will search for a new one, but would be happy to get suggestions in the meantime Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:55, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Ideally a banner for South Korea would have both a traditional element like a palace, temple or shrine and Myeongdong-like modern elements. ϒpsilon (talk) 09:16, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Improving quality of country articles

I've noticed that there are many issues with South Korean articles that I am slowly trying to address:

• Many cities have been created with OK content, but have not been upgraded from 'outline' to 'usable' categorization
• Some small towns have articles for the purpose of advertizing one business with no other content
• National park articles have been frequently created with no content
• Prices are often not listed in ₩ (Korean won symbol) but written as won or even given as US dollar

Please feel free to add anything else you think needs fixing --Andrewssi2 (talk) 01:57, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Advice on eating moved from Suwon

In case anyone wants to include any of this in the "Eat" section, or perhaps put it in Vegetarian and vegan food.

Vegetarian food is difficult to find without a Korean speaker in your party. Korean food is very tasty, and does have vegetarian dishes, you just need to know how to ask for them. At a pinch, there are always Western options such as baguette sandwiches, Pizzas, burgers etc. where you can point and show how many you want. If all else fails, a big smile and a "ch'e-shik-chuui-jah" (a Vegetarian person) will earn you a selection of veggie side dishes in most of the very many korean restaurants. Korean hosts are very keen to please. Be prepared that it may contain a couple of shellfish thrown in here and there, which you may prefer to leave on the side. Christianity is more widespread than Buddhism, so the usual gambit of claiming to be Buddhist may not help as much as in, say, China, Tibet, Japan, etc.

I'll add that the last sentence is untrue, according to figures given in this article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! I will take a look. There is quite a lot of awesome vegetarian food in Korea, although there is a belief that Westerners will only want to eat meat so it will be rarely offered to you. It is something the country guide should cover.

The religious aspect definitely is incorrect, since most followers of Buddhism in Korea actually eat meat. That said, some of the best vegetarian food can be found in the remote Buddhist monasteries. Andrewssi2 (talk) 09:20, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

After reading through the existing section ("Dietary restrictions"), I believe there isn't any value to add the above text from Suwon. There isn't anything extra that is insightful and the writing quality is lower. Andrewssi2 (talk) 13:56, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Quality of South Korean listings

There has been a discussion started in Talk:Jeonju#Need_more_information around the lack of information generally found in South Korean listings.

The points are around the following listing issues we see in WV.

1. Listings with only romanized names
2. Listings with no addresses
3. Listings with broken websites

Andrewssi2 (talk) 01:42, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Korean and Chinese Culture

Perhaps this is just anecdotal, but from my experience in Wikipedia, Koreans get extremely upset if you suggest that Korean culture has historically been influenced by Chinese culture. Previously, when I made such edits in Wikipedia, what I got was a huge bashing from Korean Wikipedians and accusations that I was Sinocentric, biased towards China, anti-Korea and lots of other allegations. Essentially, I became Public Enemy Number One for many Korean Wikipedians. While this may be just an isolated incident, what this suggests to me is that Koreans reject the notion that their culture has been influenced by Chinese culture, and even suggesting that is extremely offensive to a Korean. I just thought I'd mention it so that visitors would not say such things and offend their hosts. The dog2 (talk) 02:18, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this to the talk page!

I really can't speak for the Wikipedia users that you encountered. I would however suspect that they are perhaps something like second generation Korean Americans who tend to be more sensitive to this kind of thing and often explode with nationalistic sentiment with any comparison to other Asian cultures. Without reference to the conversations you have had I can't say that with certainty, but if it is true then quite often the worst source of national information is from people like that. (i.e. My parents came from Korea, therefore I know much better than you and Korea is much better than China!)

In Korea itself, it is really mixed. Buddhist temples in Korea very obviously influenced by Chinese culture, and even today public officials take examinations on Confucius principles!

Chinese people themselves actually like watching Korean dramas because they often feel Korean retains a level of Chinese culture that China itself has lost. Everyone takes pride in the Chinese character with which their name is spelt.

Honestly, I don't think moderate Chinese comparisons are an issue at all. It is important to bear in mind however that Korean culture should be regarded as indigenous to Korea, with China being an outside influence rather than a defining force.

When it comes to Japan, I think there is a stronger case. In reality Korea has copied a great deal of Japanese culture; Korean cuisine and even society is closer to Japan than China and saunas are a definite common interest. However comparisons with Japan are best not discussed to much because of the wartime animosity between the two nations is not repaired even today. (The current Korean president and Japanese Prime minister have not yet met each other, and it seems unlikely they will meet)

Andrewssi2 (talk) 03:25, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

OK, perhaps that explains some of things I previously experienced in Wikipedia. To be honest, it was not a very nice experience have multiple personal attacks thrown at me, and perhaps I have been too quick to generalise that most Koreans share those views.

Although I am of Chinese descent myself, I do understand why many Koreans, Japanese and Vietnamese get upset with the Chinese at times, as many Chinese tend to belittle these cultures as nothing more than copies of Chinese culture. Of course, this is untrue and very offensive to people of those cultures (Who wouldn't be offended if anyone tried to belittle their culture?). I certainly recognise that these cultures are unique in their own right, and it is annoying when some of these Chinese tourists belittle the cultures of the countries they visit. Thankfully, it is becoming less of a problem among the younger urban Chinese.

At the same time, most experts agree that China has had a profound influence on the cultures of Korea and Japan. Historically, China has been the dominant power in that region, so it has exported much of its culture to its neighbours. Essentially, the Koreans and Japanese adopted many elements of Chinese culture, Confucianism being the most prominent example, and blended these elements with their native customs, which led to what is today the unique traditional cultures of Korea and Japan. The Japanese typically have no problems acknowledging that their culture has been influenced by Chinese culture, but perhaps the issue is a little more sensitive to Koreans due to the fact that historically, the foreign relations of Korea had been dominated by its two larger neighbours.

The Korea-Japan relationship is a bit complicated, but at least according to my readings, the cultural influences went both ways. Chinese cultural influences first reached Japan through Korea, though eventually, during the Tang Dynasty, the Japanese started sending envoys to China itself to learn the ways of the major power of the region directly from them. Of course, the Japanese occupation of Korea would probably have had some impact culturally (35 years is a long time), though as you said, this is a very touchy subject due to wartime animosity between the two countries. The dog2 (talk) 04:15, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

It is actually probably not a good idea in general to use WV/WP contributors as examples of a country's citizens :)

But yes, you would have to be pretty ignorant of Korean culture to not know/admit there is a strong Chinese influence. Even the Mandarin and Korean languages share a lot of vocabulary (although the grammar is completely unrelated)

Best advice is to be respectful of the distinct Korean culture, which is pretty much the same advice you should use for any country. Andrewssi2 (talk) 05:23, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Usage of public art from South Korea on Wikimedia Commons

I have been alerted to the fact that the image that I used for Chuncheon is in fact not valid for the Wikimedia Commons because it focuses on public artwork in South Korea which is not compatible with their license:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:FOP#Korea_.28South.29

I don't have the required background to analyze this too much. It would be however useful to bear in mind when uploading images for South Korea. Andrewssi2 (talk) 05:24, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

According to the page you linked to:

Although Article 35.(2) of the Republic of Korea: Copyright, Act of 1957 (Law No. 432, as last amended by Law No. 9625 of April 22, 2009) permits any reproduction of works permanently installed in "open places", 35.(2).4 specifically states that the rule does not apply "where reproduction is made for the purpose of selling its copies."

This is a non-profit site that isn't selling anything, so if they are quoting the law accurately, it should be perfectly OK to show pictures of South Korean public art - here and on Commons. Note what the lawsuit was about:

"Also pay royalties for architecture in advertisements" about a company which was fined for using a building by architect Min Kyu-am in advertisements for Kookmin Bank without permission from the architect

So you can't use pictures of public art in advertisements. What do we do that could ever be interpreted as an advertisement? Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:31, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

I made a banner from this image: http://www.flickr.com/photos/thedakotakid/2351223957/

And somebody on MediaWiki Commons claims this is not compatible with their policy. You may very well be right, but what is the best way to argue this?

I note that recently similar WV conversations were happening regarding images using public art/buildings in the United States. Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:49, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Not buildings: Copyrighted public sculpture. And you'll note that US law on copyrighted public art (not architecture) is different from South Korean law, as excerpted in Commons. I think the best way to deal with this is to upload the banner directly to Wikivoyage, quoting the law excerpted in Commons as legal justification. But I'd be curious to see what argument was made on Commons that led to the deletion of the banner. It seems to me, their "Not OK" determination is wrong, if they are quoting South Korean law correctly. Perhaps an argument in Commons:Commons talk:Freedom of panorama would be appropriate. I think I'll start one. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:04, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Tada! My first Commons talk thread: Commons:Commons talk:Freedom of panorama#South Korea. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:12, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

I imagine one of the issues lies with re-usability. If it's not okay to use commercially, a picture can't be licensed under our licenses, as that dóes allow commercial re-use. JuliasTravels (talk) 09:37, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the initiative Ikan!

For the alternative solution, are we able to adapt the existing Banner template to look at WV rather than WM (if specified)? I think that would be a big change? Andrewssi2 (talk) 09:58, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Good that Ikan raised the issue at Commons. I've myself made some banners for South Korean articles and haven't been aware of this problem, luckily I've mostly used palaces and other old buildings.

Also, I have a feeling that the photos that are on Commons and are intended for use in Wiki articles are safer to use as banner material than something from Flickr (or even Instagram?). Yes, I know there isn't always good pics on Commons for every destination... ϒpsilon (talk) 10:40, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, although it seems only a percentage of commons pictures are vetted by humans (which I believe is a requirement in order to detect copyright issues). So you could create a banner from an unvetted source on the commons itself.

Commons is not so great for Korean pictures unfortunately, although the unique CC license for US Government pictures means that Flickr is awash with pictures of American soldiers in Korea. :) Still I can usually find a landscape that I need. Andrewssi2 (talk) 13:07, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Why does our license allow commercial re-use? That would seem to contradict the spirit of a non-profit organization. If we don't allow advertising on this site, we should disallow people from using our images commercially. That would solve the problem. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:37, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

If you put it like that, it almost sounds like a great idea ;-) But it's a complex matter. Firstly, all of Wikimedia uses licenses as free as possible. Yes we're a non-profit organisation, but our principles and goals are about free knowledge - not about making the rest of the world non-profit too. Most of the photographers who upload pictures to Commons are actually very happy when their work is, for example, picked up by a newspaper or magazine with them properly attributed. The non-commercial license would mean a great restriction on re-usability, making both use ánd contributing less interesting for large groups. It's not something we should want, at least in my eyes. Secondly, we can't go back and put restrictions like non-commercial use only on images that have already been given a full free license. It would also be difficult to include new materials with a fully free license for that reason. Well..I'm sure there are many pages worth of discussions about this topic on Wikimedia talkpages which you would probably want to glance through before starting over, but the short answer is, I think, no, it's no easy solution at all :-) JuliasTravels (talk) 22:19, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

That's really a pity, because we're seriously limiting knowledge (in the form of images), in exchange for helping people make a profit, with no financial benefit to us. I'd like to see the Wikimedia discussions about this. I think it's a mistake. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:14, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

These explanations seem relevant: commons:Commons:Licensing/Justifications, http://freedomdefined.org/Licenses/NC, and Consequences, risks and side-effects of the license module “non-commercial use only – NC". --Avenue (talk) 03:31, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Hasn't Commons always offered uploaders several different licenses to choose among, including "commercial use prohibited"? ϒpsilon (talk) 05:35, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

User:Avenue: Based on the cartoon in your first link, Wikipedia is publishing DVDs and books to try to make a profit on them? —The preceding comment was added by Ikan Kekek (talk • contribs)

They publish DVDs but I don't think they really make a profit on it. A much easier and more visible example would be Google. When you search for something on Google, the first image that pops up is usually from Wikimedia Commons. If all images were under a non-commercial clause, then that would probably not be allowed, and you can argue whether Google is profiting off the back of Wikipedia or whether the free license attached to that photo lets Google add a value-based service. On my part, I feel attribution is messed up most of the time, hence I do it for the fun of it and consider most of my edits to be in the public domain. -- torty3 (talk) 06:21, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

OK, the point about Google is the first one that's really made sense to me. So I guess we're stuck. Too bad. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:26, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Another relevant point is that a non-commercial license would rule out professionally printed Wikivoyage books (as described at Wikivoyage:Books), as would Korean law on public art (if I understand it right).

The main Wikipedia DVD publication I know of is the German one (w:de:Wikipedia:DVD), priced at 19 € (2010 edition).

A prohibition on advertising use would also hit the main Wikipedia website, and any other Wikimedia site which runs an annual fundraising banner. --Avenue (talk) 09:23, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't know what else is in South Korean law, but fundraising for a non-profit organization is definitely not the same as selling a product for profit. However, since it's clear (a) that the policy we're discussing won't be changed and (b) that if it were, quite apart from anything else, Google wouldn't be allowed to index Wikimedia sites and they'd become invisible, this discussion, though interesting (and thanks for the additional information), is academic. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:13, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't actually think google wouldn't be allowed to index (indexing and quoting through linking is a different thing from re-using as in printing), but indeed, I don't think this policy is likely to be changed at all. :-) That said, has a solution been found for the particular banner problem? JuliasTravels (talk) 10:31, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

I know I am too late, but for your informations; you cannot upload (1: sculptures 2: modern buildings 3: and some more) which author lifetime + 70 years (if company, simply 70 years). It's because basically copyright of building designs are protected, and files of building is derivate work of the building. w:Freedom of panorama will explain more. — Revi 16:31, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Hanja usage in South Korea

I noticed some liberal usage of Hanja characters in the South Korea articles recently. I don't think a formal policy needs to be set up, however it would be good to agree consensus.

Hanja is not used extensivally in South Korea, although most people can read a limited ammount of characters. Typically Hanja is used in addition to Korean in order to write place names (such as a city or a temple) or (less frequently) someone's name. In that sense, if you can write down the location of a place you want in Hanja then it may be more useful than writing in Latin script.

There are other specialized cases as well, such as Korean/Chinese traditional medicine that use Hanja a great deal. Such exceptions are OK, as long as they remain travel related.

Cases where Hanja is not appropriate include (but not limited to):

• Laws and rules
• Names of non-famous/non-historical people (The owner of a hostel for example)
• Objects (Korean food, animals, buildings etc)

Any comments on the ideas above would be appreciated. User:Ypsilon pinged again for Korean perspective :) --Andrewssi2 (talk) 15:22, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Historical documents, inscriptions on temples and such are generally where one would encounter Chinese script. In modern texts like newspapers chances are greater that you would run into an English word written in Latin letters instead. ϒpsilon (talk) 16:29, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Thousands of high quality South Korean images available for use

Korea.net has released around 5,000 high quality images from South Korea under CC-BY-SA, and these are now available for usage on our project. I encourage Wikivoyage editors to take advantage of these fantastic images as many could be put into use on this project. Russavia (talk) 01:25, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks!

I would caution that many of the images appear to be of people, and even though they are CC it may not be possible to use on Wikivoyage. Additionally, it has been established that public artwork in South Korea may not be used by Wikimedia, even if again the origional picture was released under CC. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 01:32, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

But photos such as those of Jeju would be suitable. There's plenty of others as well of tourist hotspots and sites in South Korea in this category. It will just require people to go browse through the category. Good luck. Russavia (talk) 08:34, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

New Banner

The current banner is quite blurry, with lots of darkness interspersed with a temple and some modern buildings.

I created a couple extra suggestions. I think the shot of traditional costumes is something we'd expect from a travel guide, as opposed to another generic city scape...

Existing banner

Korean women in traditional costumes

Aerial view of Palace

Any thoughts? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 04:52, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Both new banners are better than the existing one, but I find the aerial view the best composition. I judge that based on how it feels to move my eyes around the picture plane, which is the same way I usually look at a painting. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:59, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

OK great. The traditional costumes are actually shot in Insadong in Jongno in Seoul, which may make a better banner for that article. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:06, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Cool. It's interesting to read that that's possibly the most touristy place in South Korea, yet it's a place where some Koreans wear traditional clothing. And it's a very appealing banner on that article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:20, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

MERS

For the last week or so, there have been tens of confirmed cases and five deaths of the dangerous Middle Eastern Respiratory Syndrome around South Korea. So far it has thankfully not spread outside hospitals, or so they think, but should we still add a cautionbox to Stay healthy? Andrew? ϒpsilon (talk) 12:18, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

once it starts killing more people than annual influenza season or the government decides to put measures in place that affect the average traveler. Otherwise: No. Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:29, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Actually, it is significantly affecting travel to and from South Korea. The US embassey has some advice here, which principally is to avoid Korean hospitals as much as you can. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 05:20, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Article content from other Wikivoyage languages

I just noticed that French Wikivoyage has a good number of articles with decent content in them for South Korea (strangely enough the Seoul article is very minimal).

• Wikivoyage French South Korean Articles - 36 articles
• Wikivoyage German South Korean Articles - 12 articles
• Wikivoyage Italian South Korean articles - Only 4 :(

Any others that have significant Korean content? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 10:05, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

UNESCO article for South Korea

I noticed someone put in quite effort in an Italian Unecso listing page for South Korea. Is there a corresponding article for English Wikivoyage?

https://it.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Patrimoni_mondiali_dell%27umanit%C3%A0_in_Corea_del_Sud

Andrewssi2 (talk) 10:34, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Nope, we don't have one. The Italian colleagues actually have a separate UNESCO article for each country in the world, and that would require such a stratospheric amount of work that it's even hard to conceptualize. And I would rather not have UNESCO articles for just one country here and one country there.

On the other hand I do think we could have articles for individual entries on the world heritage list that are made up of many components like the Gochang, Hwasun and Ganghwa Dolmen Sites. ϒpsilon (talk) 12:36, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Ansan or Jirisan_National_Park as an 'other destination' ?

User:Ceever would like to have Jirisan_National_Park instead of Ansan as an 'other destination'.

I would agree because Ansan is just a large city and doesn't merit listing in the 'Cities' list. I would hesitate only because Jirisan_National_Park isn't a very complete article yet.

Any views on this? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 20:58, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Go for it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:26, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

I introduced Jirisan exactly for the reason that Ansan is not really a touristic destination - you can find many cities like this in South Korea. Furthermore, I added a great deal of relevant information for Jirisan yesterday. It is remote, but definitely a great destination besides all the never-ending city hopping you can do in South Korea. User:Ceever (talk) 07:36, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Linking to local government homepages?

Bilingual websites have long been an issue in South Korea. Most official sites used to have an English (and sometimes Japanese/Chinese) version, but the quality was usually poor and out of date.

Now I note that most of the Government web sites we link to for a destination ( Gimje as an example) no longer bother with non-Korean language, and often there is no official tourism page with English.

Should we still link to these sites even if they are only useful to Korean speakers, or is it better just not to link anymore? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 22:52, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

I would still link them but put "Korean only" in parentheses. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:41, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

If there's no official English-language site with tourist information but one such site in Korean (or some other non-English language), I think it's OK to keep the latter. And readers can of course always resort to Google Translate. Nowadays GT seems to produce palatable text (to some extent) even from non-Indo-European languages. ϒpsilon (talk) 04:30, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Korean student project will be back - any suggestions on how to make it better - and what to edit?

Swept in from the pub

Hey guys. Last year I run a project with several Korean ESL students and we improved/created several Korea related articles (ex. Ansan, Daebudo, Jebudo and few others). The class will start again in few weeks, and I'd very much appreciate suggestions on which articles people would think I could suggest to the students they could work on. The page on the city our university is in, Ansan, looks pretty good, but if you can tell me what can be done to move it towards the Wikivoyage-equivalent of Featured article, it would help a lot. Ditto for what can be fixed with the main South Korea page. As for other topics, I usually let student chose them based on their hometowns/favorite destinations (most of the students are from the Gyeonggi province), but if anyone knows of any big gaps in WV Korea coverage, do suggest it. Perhaps something related to the upcoming Winter Olympics? Our entry on Pyeongchang and Gangneung don't seem very impressive. --Piotrus (talk) 10:03, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

One possibility would be a guide (formatted as a travel topic) for players of the oriental game called baduk in Korean. Korean has some of the world's finest players and some major tournaments, and makes equipment for the game that travellers might want. People do go there for classes in the game, e.g. the Go (English name of the game) players' wiki Sensei's Library has an account from two students who spent a month in a Korean baduk school. Pashley (talk) 11:18, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Of course Sensei's Library also welcomes contributions. WV is fine for travel-oriented material, but things like tactical advice or biographies of famous players belong elsewhere. Pashley (talk) 11:53, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

@Piotrus: Not sure how you are grading assignments but if someone is a little stuck on what to do, he can make sure that listings are up to date--listing templates have a small box for this and it's something that anyone can do by making some phone calls or checking some websites. Not the most fun thing but very useful. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 14:02, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

There's a diagnostic feature you can turn on in your user profile that will highlight dead links, badly formatted phone numbers, etc. This makes these housekeeping tasks easier. Pashley (talk) 14:45, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, enabled it for my account. --Piotrus (talk) 09:05, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Seoul and its districts could use some more content, especially its peripheral districts. ϒpsilon (talk) 16:26, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

There are some relevant travel topics which could do with improvement. Pyeongchang 2018 is missing several sections (Vancouver 2010 and Glasgow 2014 may be best similar articles to look at). High-speed rail in South Korea could be expanded (see High-speed rail in China or Rail travel in Great Britain). There are also many topics which are lacking any entries for Korea, e.g. Lighthouses, Science tourism or Botanical tourism. Thank you for offering to help. AlasdairW (talk) 21:01, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

The main thing I noticed about the ESL articles last year was that they were more Wikipedia style knowledge articles, and not particularly travel related. If your students could consider travel as a guiding principle then that would be great.

Also if you take a look at Ansan there are lots of listings (a good thing) but very little description to say why this town is special and why I should visit. They could take a look at the official Korean tourist site for inspiration (not copying!) about how to 'sell' a destination. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 03:45, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

The Wikipedia style is probably my fault, as I am much more familiar with that site. Could you show me an on-WikiVoyage example of how to sell a city better? If possible, a Korea destination or another Asian one would be most helpful. --Piotrus (talk) 09:05, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

On reflection it was rather unfair to suggest the articles were too Wikipedia like, when in fact only a minority of articles in Wikivoyage are written like true travel guides. I myself have worked a lot on Korean articles and have failed to meet this on most of them!

Of the Korean articles perhaps Seoul, especially the 'Understand' section, is the best in terms of prose. Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:43, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Great! This project resulted in several great articles last year. My pet peeves I suggest you ask your student to fill: latitude, longitude, wikidata :-) Syced (talk) 07:46, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Should an article about public bike rentals in Korea be copied/moved from Wikipedia to Wikivoyage?

Swept in from the pub

On a related note, few weeks back some of my students wrote a Wikipedia article that seems to me may be more useful if moved to Wikivoyage: w:Public bicycle rental service in South Korea. Frankly, I am not sure if it meets the Wikipedia w:WP:N requirement. But here it seems to me it would fit more, alongside travel guides like High-speed rail in South Korea you pointed out to me earlier. For now I've added a short note about bicycle rental to Seoul#On_bicycle_or_on_foot.--Piotrus (talk) 09:05, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, please copy it before the content is removed from Wikipedia (the "Usage" could easily be considered as unencyclopedic). We don't need Public reception/Future development/References though. And the "Usage" section could use more details here, I guess :-) Syced (talk) 07:41, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

It's maybe not the best idea to copy over the entire article just as it is in one lump; much of it is travel relevant but not everything. IMO it's better to add the city-specific information to the Get around sections of cities and information that applies to all of SK to the country article's Get around section. The few things in that article that aren't of any use to travelers such as the Public reception section should not be moved over (also, remember that WV doesn't use references :)). ϒpsilon (talk) 12:53, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

At any rate, bikeshare and bike rentals could be better covered on WV. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:56, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

It could potentially be within the scope of WV, but it would be odd to have a South Korea-specific article on bike sharing while the more general Bike sharing travel topic doesn't yet exist. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:37, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Then how about moving the content to Bike sharing inside a big "South Korea" section? Often articles start in a very USA-centric way and are then "internationalized" by passer-bys, starting from South Korea is unusual but not stranger. Syced (talk) 03:03, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

An Innovation in Auto Traffic

A South Korean company, Evolution in Traffic Innovation (ETI), has designed a rolling guardrail that could save lives in auto accidents. From what I watched and heard from the video, it's been rolled out in at least some parts of South Korea. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 12:33, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Gwangjang Market and Nami Island missing

I've noticed these two popular places are not mentioned in WikiVoyage. Can someone with extensive knowledge about them add them in the correct section?

Nami island is under the town of Gapyeong Andrewssi2 (talk) 04:37, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

10 "other destinations"

Apparently it slipped by our watchful eyes that the list of "other destinations" includes more than 9 elements. Which should be removed? Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:55, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

I would say Guinsa, since it is frankly on the borderline about being a destination (it is a temple site) --Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:34, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Removed. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 05:24, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Region template headings missing

I just added missing headings to South Jeolla. Looking at the South Korean region articles, almost all seem to lack at least one heading (Wikivoyage:Quick region article template stipulates what headings should be in a region article), so maybe someone has been removing them from the articles intentionally.

Now in Wikipedia I think the policy is that headings need to have content below them, otherwise they're deleted. But unless some policies has changed as of lately, here on Wikivoyage articles should have a certain set of headings as per the standard templates, regardless if there is some content under them. --Ypsilon (talk) 10:47, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Time formatting

Which is most common in South Korea: the 12-hour clock (e.g., noon-2PM and 6PM-midnight), or the 24-hour clock (e.g., 12:00-14:00 and 18:00-00:00)? Thanks, Ground Zero (talk) 12:48, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Combine history with North Korea

What are two nations today were one nation for most of their history, and their History sections are both pretty similar up to that point. However, they've diverged as they've been maintained separately. Is there any reason not to copy-paste (or use a template) to have the same material on both? --Bigpeteb (talk) 20:56, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Until 1950, sure. Keep SEO in mind, though. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:11, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, that's a good idea. Ypsilon (talk) 21:23, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

[unindent] A unified Korea existed for about 1,000 years. Before that, Korea was disunified for about 1,000 years. And moreover, Korean kingdoms in the past sometimes included what's now Northeast China, or parts of it:

The Jin state was formed in southern Korea by the 3rd century BCE. In the 2nd century BCE, Gija Joseon was replaced by Wiman Joseon, which fell to the Han dynasty of China near the end of the century. This resulted in the fall of Gojoseon and led to succeeding warring states, the Proto–Three Kingdoms period that spanned the later Iron Age.

From the 1st century, Goguryeo, Baekje, and Silla grew to control the peninsula and Manchuria as the Three Kingdoms of Korea (57 BCE–668 CE), until unification by Silla in 676. In 698, Go of Balhae established the Kingdom of Balhae (c.f. modern Bohai Sea) in old territories of Goguryeo, which led to the North–South States Period (698–926) of Balhae and Silla coexisting.

In the late 9th century, Silla was divided into the Later Three Kingdoms (892–936), which ended with the unification by Wang Geon's Goryeo dynasty. Meanwhile, Balhae fell after invasions by the Khitan Liao dynasty and the refugees including the last crown prince emigrated to Goryeo, where the crown prince was warmly welcomed and included into the ruling family by Wang Geon, thus unifying the two successor states of Goguryeo.[15][16] During the Goryeo period, laws were codified, a civil service system was introduced, and culture influenced by Buddhism flourished. However, Mongol invasions in the 13th century brought Goryeo under its influence until the mid-14th century.

Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:10, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, in my comment above I should've maybe also mentioned we have a Pre-modern Korea article where we can write at length about the history of the Korean peninsula earlier than the 20th century. The North and South Korea articles could have just a short paragraph or two (the current paragraphs in those articles could be shortened). Ypsilon (talk) 14:50, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:51, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

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We don't use montages. These were kept, but reverted to an older version as a new version contained an offending image. –LPfi (talk) 10:35, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Suspect typo

from Wikivoyage:Correct typos in one click palors->parlors? (omit) context: ~~~ is the same as Japanese Karaoke palors
palors , popular and hard to miss ~~~

COVID rules for transit passengers

I will likely fly Manila-Incheon-Toronto in March. I'm fully vaccinated & will test before flying. At least 4 hours in the airport (I won't book flights with less) & depending on flight schedules, maybe more. No plan to leave the airport & (at least in normal times) Korea allows sterile transit; you can change planes without going through customs or immigration. Does that hold now?

Neither our article nor the web search results I've had make it clear what COVID requirements are for transit passengers. Can anyone clarify? Pashley (talk) 02:17, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm now likely to fly in March 2023. I still have the same questions. Pashley (talk) 12:22, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Seongnam

Swept in from the pub

We don't have an article on this. Before I suggest it to my students next year as high-priority project (en wiki states it is "the 10th largest city in the country", country being South Korea here), I want to double-check with folks here, given we also have entries on Bundang ("a ward in Seongnam") and Pangyo ("a city in Gyeonggi, administratively part of the city of Seongnam"). (Also, one listing in Wonju has the address in Seongnam?). And half of the history of Gwangju (Gyeonggi) seems to be about Seongnam? Seems like a bit of a mess... Piotrus (talk) 11:18, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Go for it, imho. I can't see the big boys arguing much about this one. Brycehughes (talk) 15:56, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Respect section

The Respect section is very long. I haven't been to South Korea, but are South Koreans really so touchy that we have to provide visitors with such a lengthy list of things not to talk about? Or is this the over-enthusuastic work of a single contributor who has a tendency to exagerate sensitivities, and often adds text that is just wrong? Ground Zero (talk) 23:31, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Andrewssi2 seems to be a frequent traveller to South Korea so I'll leave it to him to comment on the details. But Japan is indeed a very sensitive issue for Koreans, and the Koreans made no secret of their distaste for Japan when I visited. There's plenty of articles in the media about cultural and historiographical disputes between China and Korea. Much of it is based on misunderstandings or myths. For instance, many Chinese people think that South Koreans claim that Confucius was Korean, and many Koreans think that the Chinese claim that kimchi and hanbok are Chinese and not Korean. In both cases, they are only true of a small but loud and vocal minority comprising of crazy ultranationalists, but those myths have stuck. In the latter case, I can assure you that most normal Chinese people acknowledge that kimchi and hanbok are Korean, although they also associate them with their own ethnic Korean minority and not exclusively with South Koreans. The dog2 (talk) 00:21, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

It is easy to go overboard in the respect section of any country. It is true that South Koreans are particularly sensitive to Japan and can lead to mass demonstrations. Koreans can be occasionally mildly indignant towards China, but it hardly registers for the most part Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:19, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Shopping - music and k-drama?

I not particularly into K-Pop culture, and therefore asking broadly first. Early K-Pop enthusiasts (say around 2005) could travel to Korea and load up on music cds and drama DVDs that were not available in the West, and maybe only as bootleg media elsewhere.

Korean youth adopted digital downloads really early before most places in the world, and CD shops were not that common at all since 2010. Since streaming with Spotify and Netflix became mainstream this feels more the case, and people around the world have almost the same access to K-Pop media as Koreans themselves. As far as I could tell recently, 'Shopping' for K-Pop was more around 'Merch' (merchandize such as posters, clothes, iPhone cases etc) and almost nothing for the physical media (DVD's and CD's) of tv shows and music.

So simple question is that should this section be rewritten to reflect that? Andrewssi2 (talk) 01:46, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

I haven't been to South Korea since my high school days, but if most tourists visiting K-pop are no longer looking for DVDs and CDs, then yes, the section should be re-written. The dog2 (talk) 18:26, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Yet another merge/redirect needed

Swept in from the pub

This one is straightforward, but I really can't handle all this work by myself: Gonjiam is part of Gwangju (Gyeonggi) city and needs to be moved and redirected there. I just merged and redirected Munseom to Seogwipo. A stub about an island that may be misnamed might need deletion, rather than anything else. See User talk:Xisuux#Moon Island for that one. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:10, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Looking at Special:LonelyPages, which lists pages with no links from other articles, I find several more that likely need merging & redirecting. Pashley (talk) 21:21, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Worth looking at. In the meantime, I started Wikivoyage:Votes for deletion#Moon Island. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:16, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Meanwhile, I did make the merge from Gonjiam to Gwangju (Gyeonggi). Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:39, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Cautionbox and background

When we warn about protests, I think it is useful for travellers to know what the protests are about. I don't think the "for his attempted martial law declaration" makes the cautionbox overly wordy. I also don't think this incident should be included in the History section until things have calmed down (or seem to continue for a longer time) and we know what significance this will have.

When things are developing rapidly, I think that having a slightly longer warning is better than to leave out essentials or trying to integrate changing text with stable sections hour for hour.

I hope the situation will calm down, so that the cautionbox isn't needed, but I think the issue is relevant for any reporting on quick developments.

–LPfi (talk) 09:27, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

We really have to avoid trying to be Wikinews. This situation is still evolving, but the comment that a new contributors added highlights the problem of us thinking that we are a news source for travellers in Korea: "for his attempted martial law declaration last night". Last night?

Anyone in Korea now will be aware of the situation, and won't be getting their news from us. Let's highlight the safety issue, and leave the news to news outlets. Ground Zero (talk) 10:38, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

"Last night" can easily be fixed. In my (earlier) edit I instead told the time. Anyway, with quick developments many non-regulars will add info, which we should trim and tweak. Let's remove the baggage, but I don't think a four-line cautionbox (in my half-screen window) is excessive.

Anyone in Korea will know there is something going on, and people going there should read travel advisories. So why do we have a warningbox in the first place? Should we refer to the news for things we can say in one sentence? That one sentence tells quite a lot. It isn't about an attack from North Korea, it isn't about a rise in fuel prices. In this case, it was possible that access to foreign news outlets would have been cut (the military leadership requested that all news should be censored by them).

–LPfi (talk) 11:45, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Now that martial law is off the table, the protests aren't about that either. Yoon Suk Yeol has been very unpopular for a long time because of inflation, education policy, nepotism in appointments, and his attempts to block investigation of his wife's stock manipulation. In June and July 2024, over a million people signed a petition calling for Yoon to be impeached. The caution box notes that the protests are "against the sitting president", which think is more accurate than saying it is about martial law. The objections to him are more complex than just that. Ground Zero (talk) 18:12, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I think cautionboxes are about potential threats to visitors, not the grievances that spark protests. Once the crisis is over, it becomes history, and a brief summary of the whys and wherefores can be added to "Understand" if it's important to do so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:09, 4 December 2024 (UTC)