Wikivoyage talk:Where you can stick it

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Purpose of this page[edit]

I was moving some questions out of the travellers' pub, and a lot of them were along the lines of, "Where do I put information X?" Some had been covered in the article templates, some hadn't. I realized that people more often are going to know some bit of info, and wonder where to put it, than have an empty article and wonder what should go in it. So I started this page.

The title is purposefully bad, because I couldn't think of a better one. Suggestions more than welcome (or just plunge forward and move the article). --(WT-en) Evan 15:21, 9 Feb 2004 (EST)

Time Zones[edit]

Moved from Project:travellers' pub by (WT-en) Evan

We should add a location's timezone into the "Quick Facts" table; also if someone feels so inclined a timezone world map might be a good addition (if none exists already). --(WT-en) Nils 12:16 Jan 29th, 2004

It isn't a map, but there is a time zones page. -(WT-en) phma 07:04, 29 Jan 2004 (EST)

Embassy and consulate[edit]

Moved from Project:travellers' pub by (WT-en) Evan

Hi. sorry for my poor English, but I wanted to know if you already debated on the interest of listing embassies or consulates that can be found in towns like Paris or Strasbourg for example. I think it would be an interressant information for travellers that have problems with justice or so. [Was it clear ? ] --(WT-en) Pontauxchats 04:53, 30 Jan 2004 (EST)

I wonder if this would go under, say, Cope. --(WT-en) Evan 15:27, 1 Feb 2004 (EST)

Internet Cafes and Wireless Access?[edit]

Do we put this under the "contact" information? Or perhaps under "do"? --(WT-en) Anca

Yep, that's "Contact". I'm glad this page is becoming useful! --(WT-en) Evan 22:56, 23 Feb 2004 (EST)


Very useful page! What about:

  • entertainment guides (i.e. what you find in newspapers, street papers)
  • gig guides
  • visitor information centers

(WT-en) Nurg 17:36, 6 Mar 2004 (EST)

The first two are terrible examples, in that we don't have a good place to put them. I think they should go in the "Understand" section. As for visitor info centers, that'd be Understand, too.
It may be good to break the first ones out. Maybe a "Read" section of the guides? --(WT-en) Evan 18:12, 10 Mar 2004 (EST)

Wine samples and wineries[edit]

Wine samples: Drink or Do? I'd suggest drink. Opinions? -- (WT-en) Nils 05:55, 27 Apr 2004 (EDT)

Drink is really for nightlife, I think. I'd put wine tasting tours under Do, and the wineries themselves under Buy. (WT-en) Spiv 10:59, 13 September 2006 (EDT)

What about Wineries? In Santorini we have them mentioned in See, Buy and Drink. And I don't really like an idea to have introduction and background in one part of article, and the list of wineries in another. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 05:33, 10 November 2006 (EST)

So what is recommended to do in the Santorini case? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 16:40, 20 November 2006 (EST)

Theatres and Performance Acts[edit]

This may be a bit late to fix but I notice that Theatres and Stadiums are suggested to go under the Do section.

What is the reason for that?

My initial reaction is that Live Perfomance Acts should go under the See section since these activities generally involve observing the performance and audience participation is generally limited to applause. Are you suggesting that applause implies you are Doing the show rather than Seeing it? -- (WT-en) Huttite 02:50, 24 Jan 2005 (EST)

Tour companies and Tour parties[edit]

Some companies organise tours of a country, arranging things like hotels, transport, itineries, food and even entertainment. They also provide guides/chaperones and/or translators to assist the traveler. Sometimes they have a theme; like a chef taking a tour party to experience the authentic cusine; famous sports people taking a party to a series of sports events. I think these could best go in the Get around section, but does anyone have a better idea? -- (WT-en) Huttite 03:36, 23 Jul 2005 (EDT)

Recommended / further reading / destination travel books and publications[edit]

OK, so I'm not sure whether this has been suggested / discussed previously, BUT, what about adding an additional section to destination articles (towards the end, near External links) in which contributors could list books and publications relevant to understanding / appreciating a destination, with the intention of making a traveller's experience of a city all the richer? Note: not travel guides, but rather quality titles that explore the history, culture and atmosphere of a country or city, or are representative of its literary heritage (Naguib Mahfouz in Cairo, for example....) This could even be extended to music typical of a destination.... What do others think? (WT-en) Pjamescowie 14:31, 6 Nov 2004 (EST)

I like the idea, but I might be the wrong person to ask, as I can't even seem to muster the abhorance for "other guides" which my collegues here mostly seem to share. As for my own writing I've sometimes used references to the CD collection behind a given bar to try to impart something to the reader about the atmosphere there. It feels very right to me to give travellers a musical context for the places we tell them about. As my art-history professor liked to say, history, art-history, and anthropology all provide contexts for understanding the other. So I think by all means yes. -- (WT-en) Mark 14:45, 6 Nov 2004 (EST)
I love the idea. What about Read? Or a sub-section of Understand? --(WT-en) Evan 23:33, 6 Nov 2004 (EST)

Glad you both like the idea.... Read would be good, but wouldn't allow for the musical side of things.... Maybe we could have Listen as well? (though this might be getting slightly too sectionalised...!) A sub-section(s) of Understand could work, for sure, though I had visualised a section at the end of an article, alonsgide the External links.... This could be just my preconception, however, and is probably influenced by Wikipedia practice.... We can afford to be different! Any more thoughts? (WT-en) Pjamescowie 03:28, 7 Nov 2004 (EST)

I'd be inclined to not make it a entire section up there with Understand, Sleep, Do, etc. Somehow, those just seem more fundamental to what I want to use wikivoyage for than finding out about cultural research I could do. (It's useful yes, but not as useful as finding somewhere to sleep...)
My suggestion is to either make it a subsection of Understand or possibly rename External links to Other resources (or similar), and have External links, Read, Listen as part of that. -- (WT-en) Hypatia 08:06, 7 Nov 2004 (EST)
Yeah, I agree with Hypatia, surely the best thing is to to generalise "External Links". -- (WT-en) Lionfish 0:07 7 Mar 2005 (GMT)

Recommended reading/viewing - round 2[edit]

So this was discussed a few years back, up above... but what do people (now) think about where to stick recommended reading / movies?

We've got Special:Booksources (and a small conversation about books at Talk:Books, and I've proposed Special:Moviesources in the pub. Where exactly should these be listed in the articles?

I was assuming that we should have "Read" (or "Recommended reading") as a subsection of Understand... does anyone have a better idea? If we do make Moviesources then perhaps we'd need a more generic term for the subheading, unless we also add "Recommended viewing" as yet another subheader.

Music was also mentioned in the old conversation up above, but for some reason I'm more skeptical about that... – (WT-en) cacahuate talk 01:45, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

I don't think this needs its own subsection. That implies it's something each article should have, and could encourage people to add items for the sake of having them, rather than because seeing Ishtar really helped them grok Morocco. Just let people mention educational books or films in Understand. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 09:19, 23 May 2007 (EDT)
Keep in mind that Extra is going to be a better place for people to put together long lists of resources like books, movies and websites (the web directory part is rolling out this week...). Probably better to keep things high level in the guides and then link to more detailed lists on extra. (WT-en) Maj 14:35, 23 May 2007 (EDT)
Cool, that works for me. I'm all for keeping it really simple in the guides... I think 3 books/3 movies is more than adequate, if necessary at all. I don't think at all that we should aim to have them in articles though, only when it's really obvious. Some examples I keep coming back to are Dark Star Safari for East Africa and The Sheltering Sky for Morocco, and some of William Dalrymple's books for India (and overlanders to India). One's that are super wellknown and somewhat iconic for travelers to those areas. – (WT-en) cacahuate talk 20:47, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

BUMP recommended media[edit]

What was the outcome of the above discussion? A year ago, I added the following comment nearby, but since then there's no clarity in our policies on this subject (or is it?). I mean, just having "book suggestion - a 'Read' sub-section of the 'Understand' section" in this article doesn't answer:

  • what kind of books is appropriate or not?
  • what about movies and music?
  • do we encourage having references like this in a Star article, or it doesn't matter?

My latest example: is this book removal valid here? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 02:52, 8 January 2008 (EST)

First, I'd like to point out that the above discussion was continued below (we really shouldn't break up discussions like that).
For the vast majority of city destinations, having a dedicated subsection in "Understand" does not make sense IMHO (as was agreed in the below discussion); important literature can simply be mentioned in the text of "Understand." Occasionally I do think a subsection is warranted, and a good example is found in the Chicago#Literature and Chicago#Movies sections.
What kinds of books/movies are fair game? I'd say only those that are to a good extent about the city (rather than books written or movies filmed simply in the city). I think we should ruthlessly trim excessively long lists, though (imagine a comprehensive "movies" list for NYC).
Music suggestions should be highly restricted to only the most iconic examples of local music. Otherwise, treatment of music should be limited to a description of the styles of music associated with the destination (e.g., Gogo is a style of music indigenous to DC, notable for it's blend of funk-inspired rhythms with rap vocals and elements of hip hop. It finds its home in the clubs of DC's black neighborhoods in the southeast of the city). In this example, mentioning James Brown would be fair game, but we should IMHO stamp out attempts to add everyone's favorite local band to Wikivoyage guides.
I don't think we should mention this in our star criteria, simply because small destinations might not have any literature/film/music worth mentioning, while this type of information is valuable for larger and more famous (and more culturally vibrant?) destinations.
I would support the Moscow edit you cited simply because the reference was given without even trying to write about Moscow history here. References should always supplement, rather than replace work on the travel guides—I think it's fair to remove such references when the sections they are designed to supplement have not been written. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 03:46, 8 January 2008 (EST)
A 'Read' section makes sense more for smaller off the beaten track destinations than for large places like Moscow or New York. It's not as if it is hard to find books about the history of these sorts of places - just walk into any bookstore and you'll see many examples - and its not for us to pick and choose which ones to feature. However, for off the beaten path destinations (like Myanmar) a good read section is important because books are hard to find and because people don't know a whole lot about the place to start with. A good book on history, quintessential examples of literature that feature the destination (not necessarily in-grown which may not be in English anyway), and travel writing are all important in a good guide. In this I disagree with the unnamed person above who says that small destinations might not have literature worth mentioning. If a place is worth visiting, someone would definitely have written about it and not including that book would make it unworthy of star status. For example, how can an English language guidebook write about Katha and not mention Burmese Days? Trying to find iconic books about Moscow or New York is far less important than finding and listing iconic books about the lesser known destinations. The same applies to film. But, music, as a non-narrative form of art, is probably best avoided unless it is peculiar to the region (Baul music, for example).--(WT-en) Wandering 11:24, 8 January 2008 (EST)
Oh. And I think the bump of that particular history was justified. How do we know that it is any good, or even an accepted history of Moscow? --(WT-en) Wandering 11:26, 8 January 2008 (EST)
Peter, thanks for reference to the previous discussion, I've just moved it under the original section heading just above our this discussion. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 14:47, 8 January 2008 (EST)
My point above was that smaller, lesser known destinations should not have a separate section for these categories, because they would have a much smaller list of relevant literature/film and that could therefore be expressed succinctly within the general understand section. And I assure you that there are destinations with no literature available—Silver Spring is certainly a valid travel destination, but there's nothing I'd recommend someone read about it beyond a travel guide itself (or perhaps a wikipedia article, which we already link).
A destination like New York needs the subsection because literature (fiction) about the city is an entire topic in and of itself. Any guide to NY worth its salt includes a list of the most iconic works about the city, and I think we should be no more shy about picking recommendations in this category than we are about picking recommendations for restaurants/bars/hotels (we are a travel guide, after all). While they may be relatively easy to find, I wouldn't know what to read beyond some of the Harlem Renaissance lit.
All got me thinking — we should be really careful about recommending non-fiction (history books, etc.). It's more important IMHO to include the culturally relevant materials — things that help make the destination a destination. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 16:51, 8 January 2008 (EST)
Are we ready yet to organize the above thinking as a policy which everyone agrees with and can refer to in the future? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 10:33, 9 January 2008 (EST)

Highway routes[edit]

Hi there! I'm a visitor from 'Pedia. Of course we have our usual arguments over what should and should not be included there. Now it happens that one of the areas of discussion, is articles about roads and turnpikes and the like. For instance, see [1] - WP has extensive documentation on the USA and Australian road networks, among others. According to some, this isn't particularly encyclopedic. According to others, it is verifiable and useful, thus should be listed somewhere.

I realize that this might be highly impractical and unfeasible, but... wouldn't that information be more at home in WikiTravel? The different licenses may be an issue, but this concerns a relatively large amount of articles written by a relatively low amount of users. Plus there's the fact that some of this material consists of lists of stubs, which I reckon would stand a greater chance of being expanded when included here rather than on 'pedia.

Just a thought for discussion. Wikipedia:User:Radiant, 23 Feb 2005

Radiant: we have a lot of highway info already in Wikivoyage (like Gunbarrel Highway and Route 66). We treat highways like itineraries, usually. I think we might have different ways of thinking about highways, though: an encyclopedic view of a highway (date of construction, legal act that enabled its creation, name of contractor who laid the blacktop, notorious crimes that occurred on the road) might be different from the travel-guide view (best cities or campgrounds to stay in along the way, roadside attractions, places to stop to eat, etc.). --(WT-en) Evan 17:42, 23 Feb 2005 (EST)
Also, we probably wouldn't want to list all possible highways. Just the ones worth being an itenerary.
And as a side note, I love the Wikipedia encylopedic approach to highways. I can't beleive people complain about this, but every freaking album has an article, places and characters from pop fiction frequently get articles, and minor sports figures get articles. (I've being hitting the 'random page' button on wikipedia a lot lately. There's a lot of pollution in the encylopedia, and it's not caused by a few hundred well-organized road articles). -- (WT-en) Colin 18:17, 23 Feb 2005 (EST)

Travel companies[edit]

Would it be alright if I made a Greyhound, Amtrak, etc... article. I think anyone not knowing what Greyhound or Amtrak is would like an article about these companies so they can understand better. Sometimes I link to WikiPedia, but WikiPedia is more along the lines of straight history i.e. Established date, board members, CEO. I think there should be something like: routes, stations, programs, specials, type of trains.

-(WV-en) Andrew

So far, we've made a page each for kinds of industries, like Discount airlines in Europe. Maybe Bus travel in North America? --(WT-en) Evan 00:29, 6 Apr 2005 (EDT)
How about we review airlines as we do restaurant and hotels: Food, Service, Drinks, Entertainment, Internet, Delays, etc.

We could make a "in the air" destination and have all airlines on that destination. Budget, medium, splurge would be economy, medium, and business class. Price is too complex, but I would like to know what airlines serve food on shorter (eg. European) flights, have individual TV's, serve snacks and chocolate, serve alcohol, icecream, etc -- (WT-en) elgaard 10:43, 7 Apr 2005 (EDT)

Mm-mm. I'll have to agree with Evan on this one for a change, as this is a bit of a slippery slope -- there are a lot of travel companies out there and countless websites/fora devoted solely to, say, air travel; I frequent one myself. One page is clearly unworkable, and do we really want thousands? I'm not saying it's impossible, but it'd be a pretty big expansion of Wikivoyage's mandate. (WT-en) Jpatokal 11:06, 7 Apr 2005 (EDT)
Flyertalk seem to be more a forum discussing a lot of things: Restaurants, travel stories, bonus miles etc. Wikipedia can fit airlines on one page: [2]. We would need a few lines for each airline, but would not need to cover them all. Just like we do not cover every restaurant in Paris. I Think buses and trains should be covered in "get around" on country pages, although we could have a page with international trains. But it is not very meaningfull to cover airlines in country articles, Eg. I have traveled Denmark-Canada on SAS, Lufthansa, Air Canada, British Airways, LOT, Delta, and Czeck Air. Air France, Air Italia, and more is also an option. If we want to say that AirFoo serve awful food so you should bring a sandwich, it would a waste to put it in every "Get In" section on destinations that AirFoo is operating. -- (WT-en) elgaard 19:05, 7 Apr 2005 (EDT)

Airlines and flights[edit]

Is there any decision yet on WHERE to describe airlines and their most known lines? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 11:03, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)

I'd like to publish the following info on a couple of airlines and routes -- where can I stick it?
  • type of plane for specific flight of specific airline
  • comparison of planes condition within single airline for different destinations
  • whether or not meals are served at specific flights of specific airline
  • quality of on-board meals and service for different flights for specific airline
  • number of seats in a row for specific plane type
  • recommendations on which places to choose for specific plane type
--(WT-en) DenisYurkin 13:45, 18 Oct 2005 (EDT)
This has been discussed before and goes a little beyond Wikivoyage's current scope. There are currently some discussions on hooking up with a well-known air travel specialist site who are also setting up a wiki, so please hold off for now. (WT-en) Jpatokal 22:36, 18 Oct 2005 (EDT)

ferries going through several islands?[edit]

I'd like to share experience with a ferry going from Athens\Pireaus to Santorini. The issue is that the ferry goes ultimately to Paros island, and people will unlikely find it there when they read looking for ways to Santorini (and vice versa; same applies to 10 more islands on the way). What is the best place? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 15:15, 18 Oct 2005 (EDT)

All of them. Every single island the ferry goes to should have a short note about it. (WT-en) Jpatokal 22:40, 18 Oct 2005 (EDT)
It doesn't look smart to duplicate detailed info on the same ship on page of every island. Of course I will link from all islands to the place it is detailed -- but what's that place? I will hardly print out page for Paros if I plan to go to Santorini -- but maybe will print Pireaus, and will think about printing Ships operating from Pireaus to Paros, if Santorini article suggest me to. Is it OK to create such a separate article? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 05:45, 19 Oct 2005 (EDT)
I'm lost. What exactly is wrong with mentioning under the "By ship" heading of "Get in" on each article that a ferry starts in X (Pireaus?) place and goes to Y (Paros?) place, stopping in THIS (Santorini) place? Maybe even add a statement after that one saying that it had stopped at B place before THIS place and goes to C place afterwards.
I understand you might feel strange about repeating the initial statement each time, but if someone were interested in a specific island, its better to have the information right there. I've heard of instances where people more-or-less blindly printed an article, not realizing there was a link to another article and as such, did not have all of the information. -- (WT-en) Ilkirk 09:19, 19 Oct 2005 (EDT)
What level of detailed information are we talking about? I think a note in the "By boat" section of "Get in" saying that ferry company X gets you from Pireaus to island Y every N days, look for the Paros ferry, etc. Although I think it'd be a mistake to go into intimate detail of the boat ("bathrooms are here and here, best place to sleep is on the port aft deck, the food is OK if you eat the spanakopita but not the meat etc. etc. etc."), but a one- or two-sentence gloss is probably reasonable ("A clean, modern boat with lots of space that makes most of its stops on schedule"). --(WT-en) Evan 10:58, 19 Oct 2005 (EDT)
I've done it this way: common info placed in Cyclades (which seems to contain all the islands involved), while some specifics added in Santorini, with a link to Cyclades for a full story. Does it look reasonable? Any corrections suggested? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 14:40, 19 Oct 2005 (EDT)


Swept in from the Project:Travellers' pub:

I was working on an entry that involved annual events for a particular city. I wasn't sure if they should go under See or Do since events often fall under both.

I would like to propose adding Event section to the templates, especially for cities.

Comments? (WT-en) Epolk 17:22, 18 Aug 2005 (EDT)

Project:Where you can stick it decrees that festivals go under Do. I'm not too sure why, but it's the de facto standard already... I would not be averse to adding a "Events" subsection under Do though, and you can do this on an ad hoc basis already. (WT-en) Jpatokal 09:33, 5 Sep 2005 (EDT)
I recently added a bunch of events to the Basel page (subheading under Do), and I was thinking that it would be nice if there were some guidelines on how to list events, in terms of formatting. Dates, locations, a descriptive blurb, etc. --(WT-en) kenliu

See vs Other destinations[edit]

  • On the regional template, we have both 'see' and 'other destinations' sections. What is the difference regarding entries? For example, other destinations implies somewhere outside the listed cities, but if there is a major site of interest in that region that it is not in a city nor big enough to require its own page, should it be placed under 'see' or 'other destinations'? The article on Tibet offers an example this problem. I'd appreciate some input from others. Thanks. (WT-en) WindHorse 20 Jan 06
No need for a reply. I've seen how it is done on another page: Listings under 'Other destinations' should actually be large enough for their own pages.

Non-tourist churches[edit]

This article says that churches should go in the See section -- what about for churches that are not tourist sites, but places the traveler might want to worship...someone put effort into listed places of worship for Rochester_(New_York)...I assume this is of some interest to the observant (since this sort of thing is always in the hotel information books). If this were a big city, I might think Cope...suggestions? Move, or just delete? (WT-en) Jonboy 16:04, 6 March 2006 (EST)


Swept in from the Pub:

I think we should add a category for city exits and places were you can get out of a city easily under "get out" for citys (at least large citys). Also we should add hitchhiking to the "get around" in contry templates. Any other opinions on that?

I've been adding "By thumb" sections under "Get around" for countries and "Get in" for some cities. (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:37, 24 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Selected trains[edit]

Swept in from the Pub:

So there's a new user (User: adding a bunch of scheduling info for trains in Europe (see Western Europe and talk page). I know there's been some talk in the past about how much detail in boat, plane, train schedules is useful to readers (and reasonable to maintain), but it's come up again. I think it has some place in actual city articles (ie "trains run every 2 hours" "last train leaves a midnight") but not so much on region or country pages and not so much the actual schedule in scheduling format. A general idea is going to be more accurate more often (think about sundays, holidays, etc etc) and travellers should always double check with the transportation company-- heck, I do even when I have schedules published by the company! Anyway, other opinions? Suggestions on what to do with the extensive contributions by User: ? (WT-en) Majnoona 08:58, 5 Nov 2005 (EST)

  • Agree this is an eye-sore and not very helpful. I'd vote delete.
  • The contributions should be deleted, in my opinion. While they may have some use now, unless there is sufficient effort they will fall quickly out of data and then be worse than useless. I pointer to primary sources where one can obtain up-to-date schedules and routes would be more useful. -- (WT-en) Colin 13:49, 5 Nov 2005 (EST)
  • I only partly removed the selected trains sections. Does anyone think perhaps that it is useful for smaller towns which only have one or two trains that pass through? I'd like some input on that before I delete the sections from smaller cities. -- (WT-en) Colin 15:42, 5 Nov 2005 (EST)
  • I moved a lot of these contributions to the talk pages - did they get moved back onto the main article? I just logged in and haven't dug throught the recent changes. Obviously I don't believe they need to last in their current form for exactly the reasons you've pointed out Maj, but it would be nice if someone could translate them into paragraphs. I, for one, had a bit of time reading them to begin with - those are all city names, right? -- (WT-en) Ilkirk 23:42, 5 Nov 2005 (EST)

Where do these go?[edit]

1. Bus tour 2. Hiking tour 3. Boat tour 4. Rafting tour 5. If a tour provides a pickup from an airport, does it go into "get in"?

OK, I'll bite: I think tours that are mostly adventure sports should go in "do", and those that are mostly transportational should go in "get around". And, yes, I think that if a tour gives you rides to/from the airport, it should be noted in "get in".
What do I win? B-) --(WT-en) Evan 20:58, 27 April 2006 (EDT)
A Grand Canyon. -- (WT-en) Colin 21:05, 27 April 2006 (EDT)


It's of interest both to many smokers and many non-smokers to know about both local and regional smoking laws and customs. Where can I smoke? Where can I go to get away from smoke? I'm thinking of adding relevant info to Australia and to its states, which have varying smoking laws (some are starting to ban smoking in licenced venues and restaurants altogether). Where can I stick it? (WT-en) Hypatia 01:54, 13 June 2006 (EDT)

Agreed. Some cities in the United States ban smoking in restaurants, bars, and public buildings... so where does this belong? --(WT-en) BigPeteB 13:05, 30 March 2011 (EDT)
There is a "Smoking" sub-section under "Eat" for the USA article, which seems like as good of an example to follow as any. Since in general this warning probably won't merit more than a sentence or two, "Eat" and "Drink" would probably make sense for most destinations, although this type of info is usually mentioned only at the highest level for which it is notable - for example, the California article might merit a few lines, but it wouldn't be necessary to add this info to every single city article for California unless that city was noticeably different from the rest of the state. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 13:15, 30 March 2011 (EDT)

Drink/Local Beer[edit]

Swept in from the Pub:

I'm a self-admitted beer nerd (and seeking help through ethanol therapy, thank you!) and like to try out local offerings. I recently wrote most of what's currently in San Marcos and added a "local beer" section under drink. I should probably get around to this for Houston and the like. Does anyone see a problem for me adding this to other pages (or have ideas for a better way to work the information in)? I'm not a wine person, though I know that Texas and California have some pretty decent local wines that the traveller might want to know about too, so I guess there could be a more general name for this section, but I can't think of a good one. (WT-en) Jordanmills 21:25, 23 April 2006 (EDT)

This seems to me like perfectly appropriate information to include under "Drink". I've including info about local beers and wines in this section on a few pages. One simple way to do that would be to include a bar-type listing for the brewery's pub or the vineyard's tasting room, if they have one. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 21:41, 23 April 2006 (EDT)

See vs Do[edit]

Swept in from the Pub:

Hey folks, is there any guideline to help figure out what is "See" and what is "Do"? Would a museum count as see or do? 20:40, 30 April 2006 (EDT)

Where you can stick it should help. (WT-en) SHC 20:47, 30 April 2006 (EDT)
Rule of thumb: If the main activity there consists of sitting in a vehicle/walking around and looking at things, it's a "See". (This includes all but the most fun museums.) If it includes more involvement than that and/or getting your heart rate up, it's a "Do". - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 21:00, 30 April 2006 (EDT)
Thanks! (WT-en) Adina 22:18, 30 April 2006 (EDT)
The explanatory paragraphs of the article templates could be helpful too. (WT-en) Ricardo (Rmx) 22:51, 30 April 2006 (EDT)

City Centres(sic) and Districts[edit]

Swept in from the Pub:

I am interested in people's opinions on cities where the districts are really inner suburbs, with most of the sights concentrated in the centre and it doesn't seems productive to go all the way in creating districts. In this case, an anonymous user created Headingley and Chapel Allerton, which are part of Leeds. I moved these to discrict pages, but I don't feel we should move all the city centre info to a Leeds/City Centre page, as it seems happy enough where it is. Is this acceptable?, and could it be used in a few more cases where the main article could become the de-facto city centre article. -- (WT-en) DanielC 16:50, 4 May 2006 (EDT)

Hi Daniel, I think I responed to this in some of the Leeds 'burbs, but for the record: we only really want districts for huge cities such as Mexico City and New York (city). The other options are "neighborhoods" or stand-alone destinations for actual suburbs. I don't know Leeds well enough to say, but I'm pretty sure it's not Huge, and that folks think of Headingley et al as 'seperate' (ie the Get in sections all say "take a bus from Leeds" whereas I would not say "Take a bus from New York to get to Queens"). Hope this helps! (WT-en) Majnoona 10:47, 5 May 2006 (EDT)

Sites of interest as opposed to the city/region/etc. focus Wikivoyage has so far[edit]

Swept in from the Pub:

A lot of the most interesting places to visit in China — for the "adventure tourist" at any rate — are, for historical reasons obvious to anybody who knows China's history, in way-the-Hell-out-of-the-way places nowhere near a city or town. Examples would include Longhu Mountain, home of one of the most important Taoist temples in China and White Deer Academy, the world's oldest university. (Other standalones which could at least plausibly be associated with nearby cities would include Shaolin Temple, Donglin Temple, Tiefo Temple, etc. but I think they'd still be better served as separate destinations rather than as simple entries in a city page.) I'm really not sure how I'd go about adding information on these kinds of places given the editorial policies in place and the templates provided. And yet I really want to actually document these out-of-the-way places which I've grown to love in my stay in China. Could anybody with some suggestions on how to do this drop a line on my user talk page? --(WT-en) Michael 06:49, 17 May 2006 (EDT)

Project:Plunge forward and write them up as small cities, which is the 'default' template for oddballs (cf. Panmunjeom, North Pole). Alternatively, if they're national parks (as eg. Longhushan seems to be), then the park template is also a good option. (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:15, 18 May 2006 (EDT)


I've been sticking Casinos under "Drink," but is that where they should go or is there a better section for casinos? -- (WT-en) Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 13:09, 4 September 2006 (EDT)

I've been using "Do" even though gambling is not exactly active. (WT-en) OldPine 13:12, 4 September 2006 (EDT)
I was debating if Drink or Do would be better because for the most part Casinos seem to be more nightlife activities, which would indicate "Drink", but it's also completely feasible that they should be under "Do." I'll wait for other comments before adding casinos to the page. -- (WT-en) Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 13:17, 4 September 2006 (EDT)
I see your point, but my feel is that the preponderance of folks go to gamble with a small percentage going for nightlife. I do list the nightclubs under drink and the restaurants under eat. Agree on hearing more views. Always a good thing. (WT-en) OldPine 13:20, 4 September 2006 (EDT)
I'd cast my vote for "Do" — gambling most definitely is something you do by yourself, as opposed to just sitting around watching. (WT-en) Jpatokal 19:08, 4 September 2006 (EDT)

National holidays under Do or Understand?[edit]

The current guideline says that "holiday (national)" belongs in "the Do section of the Country page", but nearly every country article (or at least those I've touched!) puts them under a "Holidays" subsection in "Understand" instead. To me this makes perfect sense, because then it's next to "Climate" and they're both important things to consider when planning a trip. Should the guideline be changed? (WT-en) Jpatokal 18:22, 7 September 2006 (EDT)

Absolutely. --(WT-en) Ricardo (Rmx) 19:31, 7 September 2006 (EDT)
Yes. -- (WT-en) Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 19:42, 7 September 2006 (EDT)

Wow. Four years ago. This question just came up again over on pt:, and I notice here that there was some support for this change but it never got changed. Still most countries have this info in the Understand section, so can we go ahead and make the change on the policy page as well? (WT-en) Texugo 22:21, 16 September 2010 (EDT)

Sure, why not! (WT-en) LtPowers 10:26, 17 September 2010 (EDT)

TMI on Airplane Routes[edit]

Swept in from the Pub:

User: has added large tables of airline connections to a bunch of articles (for example Abbotsford). I think they are too much detail, and should be deleted. But I'd like a second opinion first -- (WT-en) Colin 16:18, 28 June 2006 (EDT)

Seconded. It appears to be User: popping up again. (WT-en) Evan and I tried to talk to him/her about it to no avail. Let the reverts begin. -- (WT-en) Jonboy 18:21, 28 June 2006 (EDT)
Oh good, it's already been discussed. -- (WT-en) Colin 18:25, 28 June 2006 (EDT)
I've been reverting this for a couple days and started a discussion for him to see on the article he repeatedly added the tables to - Alesund. - Sapphire
The IP address for this user changes spontaneously so we have to vigilant. Today (June 29) his IP is - (This has since changed multiple times.) -- (WT-en) Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 04:47, 29 June 2006 (EDT)
TMI? WTF is that? C'mon, it's not even in the jargon. (WT-en) OldPine 06:57, 29 June 2006 (EDT)
TMI = Too much information. Have you seen these tables? He even lists what kind of aircraft someone flies on if they go with a specific airline. -- (WT-en) Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 07:09, 29 June 2006 (EDT)
Ah, I see. If I were NewPine I might have got that. No, I haven't peeked. I haven't moved into cop phase yet, but I truly appreciate how the admins are on top of things like that. (WT-en) OldPine 10:06, 29 June 2006 (EDT)
I agree that the info here is excessive; I wonder if there's a way we can make space for this information. I think there is a case for saying that it's another way of seeing travel, and maybe we could make a new article category for precise bus, train, and air schedules. but I could also buy the idea that they're pretty hard to keep up to date. --(WT-en) Evan 09:53, 29 June 2006 (EDT)
Some of this is useful (e.g. savvy travelers like to avoid certain aircraft for safety/comfort reasons), but with the possible exception of a certain Israeli bus line, most carriers do a pretty good job of keeping this information accessible and up to date on their own sites/publications. Let the primary sources handle that. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 10:13, 29 June 2006 (EDT)
I refuse to fly on Boeing jets and do research the aircraft I will be flying on, but for Wikivoyage I just don't think the information is relevant, because so many airlines are changing their routes selling off older jets for newer ones that are cheaper to maintain and use less fuel to prevent bankruptcy. I like listing the airport that serves a city then provide information about the airlines have big operations at the airport. I.e. If someone wants to use the Philadelphia airport I'd mention that U.S. Air has its hub there, but I wouldn't bother listing that U.S. Air or KLM have a single gate that they use at the CVG airport in Cincinnati. -- (WT-en) Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 12:34, 29 June 2006 (EDT)

Car rental company listings[edit]

Swept in from the pub(WT-en) Hypatia 19:08, 10 October 2006 (EDT)

I noticed today that added 7 car rental agencies to at least Dallas, Ft. Worth, Seattle, Phoenix, Denver and Atlanta, giving phone and URL for only one of them. As I recall, the list was given twice on each page, once under Get in and also maybe under get around. Probably useful info for the traveller (in one iteration), but I wonder if we really want this info in every city or airport city. Would it be better (or is it already covered) in a travel topic article or in some other way? If not, I'm inclined to want to get the other toll free numbers and URLs and paste the info over the listing given. (WT-en) OldPine 20:29, 18 August 2006 (EDT)

All seven of those are nationwide companies and are probably availble in all the major American airports. Maybe it would be better to just put them on the United States page. (WT-en) Texugo 05:47, 19 August 2006 (EDT)
To complicate it, the company for which info was given is not national. They operate in five states in the southern US and Washington (state). (WT-en) OldPine 08:59, 19 August 2006 (EDT)

Trimming, Pastry, Ice Cream[edit]

Swept in from the pub(WT-en) Hypatia 01:10, 13 October 2006 (EDT)

Is it possible to trim this discussion page? (obsolete topics, resolved problems etc).

During long travel, it's better to buy bread, cakes from local pastry (delays, stranded etc). There are excellent ice cream shops in certain cities. The pastry and ice cream shops are not restaurant nor bars. Is it possible to add a new category "Pastry & Ice Cream" under "Eat", beside "budget, mid-range, splurge"?

I don't think it makes sense to add an entire heading to every guide we have. I've usually put dedicated snack shops under "Eat#Budget", and places that offer coffee etc under "Drink". (WT-en) Jpatokal 12:53, 20 September 2006 (EDT)

finding this article[edit]

It was really hard for me to find this article. I added a link from Project:Project>Tools, but I feel that's not enough. Can we further improve its chances of being found by a newcomer? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 06:03, 10 November 2006 (EST)

Possibly add a link to the Welcome message? -- (WT-en) Andrew H. (Sapphire) 21:11, 7 December 2006 (EST)

A quick count gave me 14 links in the current Welcome message, I think a better spot would be on the Project:Help and/or Project:Welcome, newcomers pages. We can't have everything in the welcome message! (WT-en) Maj 23:34, 7 December 2006 (EST)
Also, it is already linked to from the Project:Manual_of_style main page... (WT-en) Maj 23:35, 7 December 2006 (EST)

Banks and ATMs[edit]

I've seen people adding listings for banks and ATMs in the "Buy" section and got to thinking where does this information belong? Personally, I feel "Cope" is a better section since you cope with monetary issues rather than "buy" it. Thoughts? -- (WT-en) Andrew H. (Sapphire) 21:09, 7 December 2006 (EST)

Somewhat related discussion: Project:Country article template#Money section. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 06:11, 8 December 2006 (EST)

Annual events[edit]

Which section should recurring events and public holidays in a destination go? I think travellers might be interested in knowing about annual events, such as the Cannes Film Festival or Mardi Gras, if they want to visit the destination during that time (or alternatively stay away to avoid crowds). Should there be a separate section for this ("Events"), or could this be part of another section (a more general "When to go" perhaps, which could also include information about the climate and such)? --(WT-en) Jopo 05:12, 5 September 2006 (EDT)

Project:Where you can stick it says that festivals go under "Do". Nationwide holidays are usually placed under "Understand#Holidays" in the country guide. (WT-en) Jpatokal 18:19, 7 September 2006 (EDT)

tap water[edit]

"Tap water is non/drinkable" -- where is it better to stick it: Stay Healthy or Drink:Water? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 02:01, 25 March 2007 (EDT)

Stay healthy is my opinion. -- (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 02:10, 25 March 2007 (EDT)
Done. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 16:27, 27 January 2011 (EST)

Barbers/Salons/Hairdressers & Mechanics/Car Repair[edit]

Anyone opposed to mentioning that barbers & mechanics should go in the cope section of an article? -- (WT-en) Fastestdogever 11:18, 7 April 2007 (EDT)

Cope sounds right to me. (WT-en) Maj 21:06, 30 April 2007 (EDT)


Any one have any trouble with a note somewhere at the top pointing people to Extra as a place to stick their personal travel stories, questions, and photos? (WT-en) Maj 21:06, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

Embassies Part II[edit]

So I've been adding a listings for embassies and consulates on de: and it's fairly black-and-white on de:, meaning that essentially only people fluent enough to read German will be using the guide, and that will largely be German, Austrians, and Swiss.

However, it's recently been argued that non-native English speakers use en: for information and for that reason we should accommodate them where ever, including with regards to disambiguation pages, but do we accommodate them by listing every single embassy/consulate for a given place?

Also, I'm very much perplexed by the current direction that states the embassies should be listed under the "Cope" section of cities. Now, I can understand why consulates should be listed in city guides, rather than country guides, but I think embassies should also be listed in country guides since they are very important to travelers. Let's say a Brit is going to Louisville and gets into a bit of trouble. Now, since the UK doesn't have a consulate in Louisville (or so I assumed) we wouldn't have any information for that traveler and he might (sensibly) refer to the U.S. guide for contact info for his embassy.

Thoughts? -- (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 08:04, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

Also, which embassies do we list? Off the top of my head I'd say the countries with large English speaking communities; Canada, UK, Ireland, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, the U.S. Of course I've left out quite a few countries, but I don't want to do too much plunging forward until there's a consensus. -- (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 14:37, 12 May 2007 (EDT)
I would vote for also allowing whatever country which language doesn't have its own version of wikivoyage. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 16:21, 12 May 2007 (EDT)
I think we should list all embassies... they aren't just there to help the citizens of that particular nationality, but also for visas and inquiries for people wishing to visit those countries, and who are we to guess at which embassies are relevant and which aren't? As for where to stick them, obviously they need to be in the city pages where they are located... but I do see the value as Sapphire points out of having them on the country page as well... for instance, in Pakistan almost all of the embassies are in Islamabad... but there's an Afghan consulate in Peshawar, which is a much better option than getting the visa in Islamabad... and unless you already know that, the country page would be the likely place you'd check to find out where in Pak you can get an Afghan visa. So I think maybe this is a rare case where something needs to be in more than one place on WT. – (WT-en) cacahuate talk 23:53, 15 May 2007 (EDT)
"All embassies" is a frightfully long list, and including consulates would make it even longer. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 09:39, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
Not necessarily... maybe in a huge capital city there will be a longer list, but in a city where there's a lot of embassies that's because they're warranted there. If a country is going through the effort to maintain an embassy or consulate, to me that shows a demand for it, and I don't see why we should overlook that or leave some out just for the sake of keeping our list tiny. Even if we've got 15 or 20 listed in a city (and we do in a few articles) it doesn't really look out of control... we rarely need descriptions or anything, just the name and contact details, and it usually looks pretty orderly and compact, I think. – (WT-en) cacahuate talk 15:05, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
Also, those "huge capital cities" should be broken down into districts anyway, which should spread out the embassies into smaller lists. I think that embassy lists are very important to independent overland travellers in Africa and Asia in particular, because of the reasons that Cacahuate listed. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 04:03, 3 August 2007 (EDT)
Eek! Embassies should not be broken up into districts, because unlike restaurants and sights you don't have a choice of where to go, and the only way to find the one embassy you're looking for is to run your finger down the full list. IMHO Singapore does this the right way. It's quite compact, and has no descriptions unless necessary (eg. that the Indian HC doesn't issue visas to non-residents). (WT-en) Jpatokal 06:12, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

Nail salons[edit]

The following was copied from User talk:(WT-en) Wrh2 in regards to the reverting of a nail salon from the Mountain View (California) article:

There are a lot of female travelers that would welcome information on nail salons etc. I know a number of professional woman that seldom gets time to pamper themselves while doing the 9 to 5 thing, so they always incorporate this into their holidays. Maybe information like that can go under the Cope section? --(WT-en) NJR_ZA 05:42, 15 May 2007 (EDT)

My thought is that if we add things like nail salons we might as well add barbershops, convenience stores, dry cleaners etc. It's a bit of a Project:Slippery slope in that we're then listing anything a traveler could possibly ever look for, even when those things can just as easily be found in the local yellow pages. That's probably fine in really small towns that don't have anything else, but in a city with hundreds of business I think we should focus on those establishments that are of interest to the majority of travelers - ie restaurants, hotels, bars, and a few highlights in terms of unique stores, major shopping areas, etc, otherwise it will be difficult to draw a line as to what is appropriate and what isn't. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 11:55, 15 May 2007 (EDT)
I've added barbers/laundromats/etc into articles. As long as I've been around, the Project:Big city article template has had this under Cope:
This section is for all those little items that people need to know when they're in a city. Where can you do laundry? Go to a gym? Get computers repaired? Anything that has to do with the practicalities of daily life should go here.
I agree with having this kind of information in articles. I've thought of reasons why people travel, besides tourism. Business trips, weddings, parties, or even funerals. I think some people would like to know where to get their hair or nails done or where they can get their suit dry-cleaned or tailored. Sure, that stuff can be found in the yellow pages, but so can most of the restaurants, hotels and museums. I'm not going to start adding this information to every article, but if someone adds it, I think it's fine to leave it.
I do agree that we need to set up some guidelines - I don't think we should start adding every convenience store, florist or dog kennel just because someone might find it useful. -- (WT-en) Fastestdogever 13:15, 15 May 2007 (EDT)
Based largely on personal experience barber shops/hair salons/nail salons (Alright, I didn't go to a nail salon, but...) are very important when you're traveling, especially on extended trips.
I'm in favor of allowing several services under the the "Cope" section: Hair/Nail salons, laundromats, gyms, and embassies, and consulates. Everything else I'm weary of, though, for international travelers I see the benefit of allowing listings for florists, since it is good practice to present a gift to someone, if they welcome you into their house while you're abroad.
Also, will people please comment on #Embassies_Part_II? (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 16:31, 15 May 2007 (EDT)
One could make an argument for almost any kind of walk-in business: I might want to rent a DVD, buy this week's new comics, have my tarot read, pierce a body part, get my glasses repaired, etc. Limiting articles to things that are clearly travel-related or popular with tourists (doesn't everyone who goes to Tijuana come back with a tattoo they don't remember getting?) seems like a good idea to me. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 09:39, 16 May 2007 (EDT)

bloated Understand-ing[edit]

A few things that say they should be in "Understand" I kinda am not so sure about:

  • Newspapers ( I think should be in Cope)
  • Sports teams ( I think should be in See/Do)
  • Province (suggests putting it in "its own region page", but that's not the case necessarily... I think we should remove this one altogether) – (WT-en) cacahuate talk 03:04, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
Agreed. I'd put sports teams in "See". - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 09:05, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
Whether we decide to have sports teams in "See" or "Do", I agree that they shouldn't be in the "Understand" section. I think that Cleveland#Do is the right idea of how sports teams should be handled. Newspapers in the "Cope" section sounds good to me. Also agreed that Province should be removed. That's already covered in Project:Geographical hierarchy -- (WT-en) Fastestdogever 15:30, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
I can agree with the first suggestion, but sports teams should go under "Do", mainly because audience participation is much more active than that of the theatre or opera, but policy directs people to put information about the theatre and opera under "Do". Regarding the last suggestion, I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about. -- (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 15:54, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
Province - a territorial unit. It's confusing because it doesn't belong on this page. Kind of like listing "State" or "County", neither of which belong here. At least, I think that's what it's getting at - it took me a minute to figure it out myself. -- (WT-en) Fastestdogever 16:04, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
Ha, I understand what a province is, but thanks for the explanation. :) What I don't understand is why a province or a state (since its also listed) wouldn't "necessarily" get its own page. -- (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 16:54, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
Because we don't always break up a country or state according to its governmental provinces... I don't think we should encourage people to always create articles for provinces when all that's often warranted is West XXX, North XXX, etc... and I agree, sports could go in "Do" – (WT-en) cacahuate talk 18:14, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
That makes sense. Yeah, I'd say remove it or redirect people to Project:Geographic hierarchy. -- (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 18:17, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
Deleted province, changed sports to Do and newspapers to Cope – (WT-en) cacahuate talk 18:18, 16 May 2007 (EDT)

Numerous things...[edit]

Archived from the Pub:

I have a few questions/comments/idea. Is there a place with all the pages listed? Are the pages supposed to include history about the places? Because I've seen very few that have it. And my idea is... some kind of rating system for places. Maybe on the discussion page for each place, we could have the people that have been there give a 1-5 star rating of the locale and give reasons why. That way people know what others think about the place and see if it would be a good place to visit. (WT-en) Andrew 00:00, 17 September 2006 (EDT)

  • There are lists of Itineraries and Travel topics and Project:Namespace index. I don't know of a list for destination guides, but they are linked by a hierarchy of geographical tags. If you start from a high level of that hierarchy, say a continent article, it should have links to things below.
  • I think history is a bit of a slippery slope. There often should be some, to orient the traveller, help him or her appreciate what he or she sees and perhaps avoid offending people. On the other hand, there's no need to give detail that would just clutter s travel guide; leave that to Wikipedia. Also, discussing history often invokes controversies we should avoid getting tangled in. We may need to warn travellers of these, but need not analyse them or take sides. "Just the facts, ma'm".
  • I like the idea of pointing out good places to go, but doubt that star ratings are the way to do it. The country, region or state/province articles should have links to the best places, with a bit of comment. Itineraries like A week near Hong Kong or One month in Southeast Asia can point out good places within an area and routes between them. (WT-en) Pashley 02:34, 17 September 2006 (EDT)
See Special:Allpages for a list of all Wiki pages. Some' history about a place is probably fine (it goes under the "Understand" heading), so long as the principle of Project:The traveller comes first is followed - as Pashley noted, we're writing travel guides, not an encyclopedia, and an article that goes into too much detail is sure to be trimmed, but many of the best articles do provide some background about a place. As to rating destinations based on their "travel worthiness", I have a feeling that may be a tough sell - it's very difficult to come to a consensus on such things, and I'm personally a bit uncomfortable with the idea of having to say (for example) that Philadelphia is a "4" while Cleveland is merely a "3". -- (WT-en) Ryan 02:56, 17 September 2006 (EDT)

True. I did mean only a bit of history. I have seen a few places, though, that simply don't have any. I'll try to find them and fix them. Your opinions on ratings? True, I accept that. Not the best thought on my part. So naming some more interesting places under itineraries would be the best way to go about saying which places are good to visit? Thanks for feedback! (WT-en) Andrew 22:16, 20 September 2006 (EDT)

Nice discussion, and it's come up a couple of times. I think the history of a destination should be the bare minimum to help you understand the cultural and linguistic state of the place. Especially if historical events play a part in the museums, attractions, or things to see or do in a place, it makes sense to outline those historical events briefly. Digging overly deeply into branches of history that travellers won't have first-hand (or second-hand) encounters with is probably too much information. --(WT-en) Evan 23:54, 20 September 2006 (EDT)
I absolutely concur with Evan on brevity in History sections; Wikipedia ("WP") and other sources will usually provide more exhaustive and authoritative information for those folks that like to research before they go. We should be short and pithy with the encyclopaedic type content and concentrate on those areas that WP can't (and won't, due to WP policy constraints) cover. The History type sections can usually have just a Wikified link and we should concentrate on the up-to-date practical stuff.
Star ratings in a formalised way are offensive for locales and inevitably will lead to edit wars and arguments. (They may be useful in warning of a "Five Star mugging risk" or a "Three Star toilet" in an unformalised figure-of-speech way.)
Star ratings in a formalised way may be something to consider for our articles themselves, though.
...(WT-en) Gaimhreadhan (kiwiexile at DMOZ) • 09:18, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
You may want to look at Project:Article status. As far as history, I think we agree although I don't think of Wikivoyage as the travel adjunct to Wikipedia, but as an independent project to create travel guides (see Project:goals and non-goals). Long historical treatises that don't enhance the travel experience are dead weight in a travel guide. --(WT-en) Evan 12:09, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
Gaimhreadhan, we have an article status as Evan points out, but those are for the quality of the articles, not for the destinations they cover. As for Wikivoyage rating places or hotels or restaurant, we do not have a system yet, but there will soon be a sister site launched where travellers can review and rate places. I will leave Evan to reveal more details, because I have no idea how much I should at this stage. — (WT-en) Ravikiran 12:54, 23 March 2007 (EDT)

Not a Travelogue[edit]

Archived from the Pub:

So one of the non-goals of wikivoyage is to be a personal travel log (or, one of the goals is to not be a log, or . . . well you get what I mean). Where does a more in-depth personal experience with something mentioned on an article belong? Say, I went to a brewpub listed in an article and felt like describing the local beers I tried, discussing the pub, etc. Does that belong here? I would guess that it does, in reasonable amount, and that it should be placed in the relevant article's discussion page. Is there consensus on this subject? (WT-en) Jordanmills 21:47, 30 September 2006 (EDT)

We really don't have a place for the information you are talking about. If you want to add a few comments about items that are good (or bad) on the menu, that would be okay, but we don't want first person references and it should be brief. The "discussion" page is for discussing how the article should be composed and not information about the location. What I mean by that is we would use that page to discuss the content, but not include content. Some like this page... general discussion and talk. Hope that helps. -- (WT-en) Tom Holland (xltel) 22:38, 30 September 2006 (EDT)
I think that this is an important question and I'd like to see more discussion on this. My thoughts follow:
  • Yes it is true that currently we do not have place for such information. Of course you're allowed to use the first person there, and you are allowed to mention your personal experience at particular restaurants, but only as a way to discuss the guide. For example, if an article gives a restaurant high praise and you just had a crappy experience there, it is perfectly okay to mention this in the talk page, but it is even more preferred to go change the article yourself. The theory then is that those who preferred the earlier version may object on the talk pages and then you are supposed to discuss the change.
  • However, I think that both from a traveller's point of view and from the point of view of making a travel guide, there is something unsatisfactory about this. For one thing, the two edits might be months apart and the original editor might not even be watching the page. Instead of a consensus or a debate about exactly which areas a restaurant scores and where it sucks, it will end up reflecting the views of whoever edited it last. Essentially, we end up losing valuable information.
  • From a traveller's point of view, personal reviews and experiences are a valuable service that Wikivoyage is not providing right now. I see the value of a travel-guide style "name, address, phone number, 2-3 lines about the place", but I also see the value of reading about other travellers' personal experiences. Also, many people who may not be comfortable plunging forward and editing a travel guide would be comfortable writing about their own experience in the first person.
  • The same goes for a personal travelogue too. Some people have used their user spaces to plan out journeys and record their experiences, but our policies frown on such use. We are supposed to convert travelogues into rather impersonal "itineraries".
  • The point I am getting at is that both for retaining users and for enriching the guide we need a space for the personal experiences of users. Users who are not comfortable writing travel guides can hang out at places where they can review and discuss restaurants, and write travelogues, and those who are interested in the guide can mine those experiences to build the guide.
  • The good news is that this will probably happen. One of the goals of the merger with World66 was exactly that. Unfortunately, in all the hullabulloo about being "sold" to Internet Brands, we ended up not discussing this at all. Evan and Maj haven't yet discussed what is going to happen on that front, but I hope they do so soon. — (WT-en) Ravikiran 03:09, 2 October 2006 (EDT) (P.S. Also see this [3])
Crappy - good experience. For a tourist from Italy, perhaps the spaghetti from local branch of pizza hut is horrible. But for a local reviewer, the same spaghetti is the best Italian food in town.
Just a follow up on this discussion-- feel free to email User:(WT-en) Maj directly if you'd like more information on the "personal travel" site we're developing. Ravikiran pretty much nailed every reason for creating this type of space and we're really excited about seeing things move forward! (WT-en) Maj 11:49, 10 October 2006 (EDT)
There's a request for comments and a link to the (now public!) beta site on shared here. Just in case some folks haven't seen it. (WT-en) Maj 18:10, 30 March 2007 (EDT)

Phillipine Passport Certification Transwiki[edit]

Archived from the Pub:

I'm not sure if this is the correct place to ask about this. I'm from Wikibooks, and we have a module there about how to get a certified copy of a Philippeans passport. The Wikibooks community has determined that the artical should be deleted, but some people have suggested that perhaps the material would find a suitable home here. The original author of the page cannot be contacted.

The page will probably be deleted from our servers within a week. If people here would like to save a copy of it, you can do so within that time. If not, that's alright too. Thanks. -- Whiteknight (Wikibooks) 09:35, 19 October 2006 (EDT)

That's not really very relevant for us either, and what's more, we can't use the content here without the original author's permission as the licenses differ. (WT-en) Jpatokal 09:49, 19 October 2006 (EDT)
Thanks for the reply. I hate to delete content if there might be another home out there. But I guess this isn't the right place either. --Whiteknight (Wikibooks) 19:42, 23 October 2006 (EDT)

Travel agencies[edit]

Archived from the Pub:

Due to my edit war over linking to a travel agency on the Uzbekistan article I need to ask the community: is there a place for listing and linking to travel agencies on Wikivoyage? If so, where do these listings belong?

I could argue for either side, but I feel that it's something we shouldn't pander to because we're not Yellow Pages. -- (WT-en) Andrew H. (Sapphire) 20:50, 8 December 2006 (EST)

Hi Sapphire, If you want to be fair then why did you allow to put links to (Travel agency) and (another travel agency)? They are in direct competition to Let's treat everyone fairly! If you allowed one then you have to do the same for others or not at all! I think you have to respond to my comment! Waiting for the response! Furkat Ayrum Internasional Limited ( —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Furkat (talkcontribs)
I've removed Advantour's website too because that link was in violation of our policy. If I were you, I'd make a case as to why we should include travel agency information on Wikivoyage, rather debate about fairness. -- (WT-en) Andrew H. (Sapphire) 21:17, 8 December 2006 (EST)
Post scriptum: There is not a link to on the Uzbekistan article. There is a link to, but per policy this looks like a legit link because it is the primary (official) link for Uzbekistan Airways. -- (WT-en) Andrew H. (Sapphire) 21:23, 8 December 2006 (EST)
I confess to putting the Advantour site there some time ago! I did it after I heard a case of someone in the UAE being conned $500 for visa support by an Uzbek 'travel' company. It seemed like a good idea at the time, but I understand it should not be there now.(WT-en) Davidbstanley 18:28, 13 December 2006 (EST)
Regarding tour links... I've think a company that provides tours is a primary source if they give the tours themselves. If they just sell tickets to someone else' tour, then they are just a travel agency and should be deleted as any non-primary source. Because it's so difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff in this area, I have a profound hate for all tour listings. -- (WT-en) Colin 13:57, 9 December 2006 (EST)


Dear Andrew!

Thanks for your response! It was not I think we sort the case out. I think it is a waste of time why we should or should not list travel agents. The main thing is keep it nice, clear and neutral!

Have a nice morning!

P.S. I would not mind if you could refer to my company( as a reputable one. It has recently opened a new office in London. We are expanding to China and Russia soon. I would be very greatful for that!

It has been our policy to only link to "Official" travel sites (see: What to link to). I am sure your company is very reputable and provides an excellent service to your clients. That is not being questioned. I might also mention that decisions are made here by the community and not my an individual. (see: Consensus) We all do our best to cooperate in seeing that our policies are followed and I know that (WT-en) Andrew is doing that in this case. So, what you are dealing with here is a policy that is set by the community of "all" users on Wikivoyage, not just one person and if policy is changed, it will be a decision for all users of Wikivoyage. (see: Wiki information) This said, we may on occasion miss removing a external link for a non-official site. When those are found they are removed. We do our best to be fair and if there is a conflict we do our best to get a consensus from the community. I hope you understand we do not favor any travel agency over any other. You are welcomed to add some information about your agency on your (WT-en) talk page and we encourage you to add valuable content to our guide. -- (WT-en) Tom Holland (xltel) 06:30, 9 December 2006 (EST)


Movie source?[edit]

Archived from the Pub:

What about creating Special:Moviesources, doing the same thing as Special:Booksources? I tried typing a movie ASIN in the booksource page, but it didn't work... not that we want to advocate flooding articles with book and movie suggestions, but sometimes there are some really relevant ones... (WT-en) Cacahuate 10:03, 15 January 2007 (EST)

I would vote for having a max of 3 books (literature, not guidebooks) plus a max of 3 movies on a region somewhere in the end of article. It would really help to understand local culture and to fall in love with the region even before you're there. I would love to have such suggestions, for example, for regions like Alaska, Tashkent, Kyrgizia, Morocco, Istanbul, Athens, Vietnam, Algeria. I've seen in Slippery Slopes that we don't like to do anything with books or music or movies, but I'm not sure we should be that radically conservative. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 04:29, 11 February 2007 (EST)
Related discussion: #Recommended / further reading / destination travel books and publications --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 02:42, 8 January 2008 (EST)
I'd support a Wikipedia-esque "References In Pop Culture" section in which to note a location's use in a movie or book. For instance the New Zealand article would mention Lord of the Rings and Boston's article would have mention of say The Departed and so forth. Using advice from movies on the other hand seems like it could end in peril and arguments.
--(WT-en) Euphemism 01:35, 22 February 2007 (EST)
I wouldn't support ones that just reference a place in Pop Culture. I think it would likely just be a mention in the "Understand" or "Cope" section, and only in really useful obvious cases... we don't want to reference things just for the sake of having a list, but there's times when something is really relevant, like a hugely popular travelogue for a certain place, etc. See Afghanistan#Read. "Dark Star Safari" by Paul Theroux should probably be listed in East Africa since it's a popular route and most that are doing it are reading or have read it. Or "The Sheltering Sky" for Morocco. Just really classic, obvious choices... (WT-en) - Cacahuate 02:21, 22 February 2007 (EST)
I do believe you've converted me. After some thinking and reading I realized that if it has no relevance to traveling then it has no place here
(WT-en) Euphemism 22:07, 26 February 2007 (EST)

listing by section[edit]

Hey there, anonymous editor! Interesting idea that you have, but I for one will dissent... mostly because I think it will only serve to duplicate the info, and trying to keep both sections updated will be an unnecessary headache. I think the way the page is organized now, alphabetically, is the single fastest way to figure out where to put something that you don't know where to put. On the other hand, if someone is just curious about what goes in a specific section then they should look at the various article templates, where there are short descriptions of what to use each section for. – (WT-en) cacahuate talk 01:08, 17 July 2007 (EDT)

I actually kind of liked the by-section listing. I'm not a big fan of long lists, and that gave a nice way of breaking down what has become a list of over a hundred items. Your point about having to update two places anytime something changes is valid, but I don't know if that's such a bad thing... anyhow, hopefully others can add their thoughts so we can come to a final decision. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 01:30, 17 July 2007 (EDT)
If the point is to break down the long list, then I'd vote for creating a subsection per letter of the alphabet, which will leave us with a TOC for easier navigation as the list gets longer. If the point is to tell people what kind of info goes in the "Buy" section, we've already got that described in the article templates. My understanding of this page is that it's to help when you've got something in mind for an article and don't know where to put it... say a barbershop... when I get to this page, I would find it much easier to find "barbershop" in an alphabetical listing than scouring each section of the "by section" area to find it. Anyway, I'll revert my revert so people can see what we're talking about while discussing – (WT-en) cacahuate talk 01:39, 17 July 2007 (EDT)
The thing I liked about the section listings is that for someone who is trying to figure out where (for example) "mosque" goes they won't currently find "mosque" in the alphabetical listing, so it gives them a way to browse the sections and see if the examples listed for that section are similar to "mosque". The article templates could be used for that, too, but to me this page was always kind of a quick-reference card sort of thing. I don't feel that strongly about this issue, so whatever people decide is best is fine with me. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 01:49, 17 July 2007 (EDT)
"I would find it much easier to find 'barbershop' in an alphabetical listing than scouring each section of the 'by section' area to find it." Of course, the alphabetical listing is still there - and precedes the "by section" area. Does adding an area that others might find helpful detract from the utility of the area that you find most useful? 09:46, 17 July 2007 (EDT)
No, we just aren't in the habit of duplicating information. If we do keep the "by section" section, I think it should be a sentence or two, similar to the Article Templates, describing what kind of info goes there, as opposed to actually listing a lot of things there. I suppose we can just see how it develops, but to me I think it's going to make a mess of things. But if I'm alone on that, I'll shut up  :) – (WT-en) cacahuate talk 19:44, 17 July 2007 (EDT)

cafes, tea- and coffeehouses[edit]

As long as Drinks section refers for guidelines to Bars listing, I think we can decide that coffehouses, teahouses and cafes (which focus on tea, coffee and pastry rather than alco) belong to Eat section, not Drink. Currently, it's frequent problem: "where to stick some details on coffee in the region? on local alternative to starbucks? etc". Objections? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 17:12, 31 July 2007 (EDT)

I personally would rather see our policies on the "drink" section expand a bit away from just drinking alchohol. That section should be, in my view, for any nightlife activity. I would include coffee shops and tea houses that stay open late, as they are good places to hang out and chat in many countries (especially countries where alcohol is forbidden). Coffee shops that are just open in the morning and serve sandwiches for lunch, however, should probably go in "eat." --(WT-en) Peter Talk 04:03, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

Art galleries[edit]

Art galleries are currently listed as "see," but since their Raison d'être is to sell you works of art, shouldn't they go in the "buy" section? I definitely see them as more of a shopping (if only browsing in my impoverished case) than a sightseeing activity. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 04:03, 3 August 2007 (EDT)


(Moved from Project:Travellers' pub by User:(WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill)

Someone recently added a link to AA meeting info to the "Drink" section of an article, and while there's an obvious logic behind that, I'm wondering if this is information we want to include. I can see AA info becoming hard to maintain, and perhaps better handled by Alcoholics Anonymous itself. But on the other hand, it's obviously useful to many travelers. If we do include info about AA meetings, is this the best place for it or would the "Cope" section be better? - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 17:15, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

if we do, i say put it in the drink section... then maybe they won't drink in the first place and won't have to "cope" with themselves in an AA meeting the next day... – (WT-en) cacahuate talk 00:31, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
I don't think it's really relevant to travel, and not a slope we want to take on. IMO it's better to leave it out. (WT-en) Jordanmills 00:37, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
I'd leave it out altogether. It may be useful for a few travellers but it's possibly too fine grained for Wikivoyage. Otherwise, maybe use the Stay healthy section. -- (WT-en) Ricardo (Rmx) 08:20, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
I wouldn't put it on the city page, because that it just too much to keep up (in the small the town I live in there are at least three churches that have weekly meetings). If anything, I think I'd put it on the "stay healthy" section country page. -- (WT-en) Fastestdogever

luggage storage[edit]

...goes where? (if it's not a part of a bus/train station/airport)? And if it is? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 04:53, 16 September 2007 (EDT)

I would probably mention it in Get in if it's part of a transport station... add a line in like (LAX will also store bags on the first floor for $5/day each) or something. If it's a hotel, mention it in the description of the hotel. I can't think of a scenario where it wouldn't be part of a hotel or a transport station, but if you find an example, it would help figure out where to put it :) – (WT-en) cacahuate talk 13:56, 16 September 2007 (EDT)
See Pamplona#Cope. I think it's a good place, and I would even vote for having all of them in one place in the article, not attach it to specific transport. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 16:19, 16 September 2007 (EDT)

Bike & Ski[edit]

Bike rental in Get around whereas Ski rental in Buy. Mistake or not? (WT-en) LukeWestwalker 13:26, 30 September 2007 (EDT)

Orientation section[edit]

Where should we include an orientation section? Should it be a subsection of "Understand", "Get around", "Get in"? -- (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 06:11, 17 December 2007 (EST)

Depends on the destination/article - sometimes "Understand" is best, other times "Get around", and in exceptional cases it needs a "==" level heading. Don't think I've seen a good case for putting it in "Get in" though. Maybe "Get around" should be the default? ~ 06:33, 17 December 2007 (EST)
Actually, I suggest the "Understand" section, because, as in the Cincinnati guide, the section can tell people about the characteristics and history of neighborhoods, while also giving them an understanding of how to get around the city. -- (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 06:58, 17 December 2007 (EST)
Perhaps "Understand" makes more sense as the default for huge cities and anywhere with sub-districts, and "Get around" makes more sense as the default for smaller places.
If/when it's going to be a sub-section of "Understand" then I think it should be the final sub-section, so that it sits directly above the "Get around" section. ~ 07:15, 17 December 2007 (EST)
Sorry, my mistake - moving it to the bottom of "Understand" puts it immediately above "Get in", not "Get around" - but still I think it's probably the best place if/when it's going to be an "Understand" sub-section. ~ 07:47, 17 December 2007 (EST)

Where the sun don't shine[edit]

Am I the only one who thinks of this phrase every time I see the title of this article? (WT-en) Texugo 01:47, 8 January 2008 (EST)

No. -- (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 16:57, 8 January 2008 (EST)
Don't you think Where the sun don't shine qualifies as a destination and should have its own article? (WT-en) Texugo 18:38, 8 January 2008 (EST)
Can you sleep there? -- (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 18:55, 8 January 2008 (EST)
Well, I understand that it is possible to get your head lodged up there. Sounds like lodging to me.
Also, for clarification purposes, I propose that we move this article to Project:Where you can shove it. (WT-en) Texugo 20:54, 8 January 2008 (EST)

duty-free shops for a huge city[edit]

I left a question in Talk:New York (city)#duty free shops at JFK on where to stick info on airport shopping for NYC, as a huge (and districtified) city which still has not a [legit] article for its major airport. I would appreciate your comments there. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 11:03, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

Farmer's Markets[edit]

In a recent edit (WT-en) EE moved the Culver City farmer's market listing from "Do" to "Buy". I reverted it without much thought based on the idea that a farmer's market is an event like a fair... however, since this is a gray area it's probably worth discussing and then adding an entry to the "Where you can stick it" listings. I would tend to think of these markets as "Do" items since they aren't permanent and are as likely to offer music and other entertainment as shopping, but others may feel differently. Thoughts? -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 17:02, 9 November 2008 (EST)

Markets should be in Buy. Just because they are in "Buy" doesn't mean they aren't any event or a destination. There can be music and entertainment in shopping malls, city shopping centers as well.--(WT-en) Inas 22:15, 7 January 2009 (EST)


Archived from the Pub:

Feel free to disagree with it but I was thinking, would it be beneficial to have hair and nail and spa places integrated into the guides? It would call for a new template, but for citys it would be great. A lot of people want to go to hair salons and spas when on holidays. What do you think? (WT-en) edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 17:04, 11 December 2008 (EST).

They would go under "cope." For most Western cities, where there are tons of English speaking hair salons around, I don't think it's terribly useful to list them. But upmarket spas might be a nice thing to include. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 17:14, 11 December 2008 (EST)
Good point. (WT-en) edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 17:57, 11 December 2008 (EST).
Please don't list these. A spa, such as one would find in a place like Palm Springs or Santa Barbara is valuable as people drive hundreds of miles to visit it, but a simple nail salon or barber shop can be found in the yellow pages and doesn't belong in a travel guide. Listing businesses like nail salons, barber shops, gas stations, or grocery stores for cities that have more than a handful of businesses is inappropriate as it becomes a Project:Slippery slope towards creating a yellow pages guide, which we definitely don't want to do. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 18:41, 11 December 2008 (EST)
So, only spas? Note - I will only list hair places if it is a salon spa kind of thing, is that okay? Groceries can be useful and I have seen them in a few articles. (WT-en) edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 18:53, 11 December 2008 (EST).
Please re-read what Peter and I wrote. Peter indicated "upmarket spas might be OK" while I indicated that listing a spa is really only appropriate when it's a place that people would travel to visit. To make this simpler, before listing something like a nail salon, gas station, or grocery store make sure it meets one of the following two criteria: 1) the establishment is rare for the area. Example: a visitor to a remote town will want to know if there are gas and groceries in that town, but a visitor to Los Angeles can assume that it will be easy to find both. 2) the establishment is so noteworthy that anyone with any familiarity with the location would recommend it. Example: drug stores aren't notable, but Wall Drug is known internationally. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 19:01, 11 December 2008 (EST)
I understand. (WT-en) edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 19:04, 11 December 2008 (EST).

Post offices[edit]

Is there a reason why post offices are not listed here? If included on a page, they obviously belong in the "Contact" section. Also, in the Washington, D.C./East End page, I have added FedEx Kinko's locations. Especially when on business travel, shipping/fax/copy/internet places are incredibly useful and I have needed them on many business trips (and leisure trips). For a place like D.C., there certainly are a lot of business travelers, in addition to tourists. (WT-en) Aude 00:39, 9 January 2009 (EST)

No reason, and Contact is the place for 'em. Plunge forward! (WT-en) Jpatokal 01:36, 9 January 2009 (EST)

Audio Commentary for Walking Tours (Spam?)[edit]

An anonymous user, or two, has been sticking URL's for Geogad walking tours into the Do sections of several London, San Francisco and New Orleans district articles, as well as a few other places - 11 articles in total, so far. This is being done on the basis that Walking Tours is listed under Do. However, I do not see these as Walking tours, rather they are like an audio guide book, so could go under a new section called Listen as a subsection of Understand. But I also think this has the potential for spam, as the same website deals with a whole lot of places. So I think it should be listed, at most, just once - but I have no idea where to put it. Any thoughts? - (WT-en) Huttite 02:16, 3 February 2009 (EST)

Project:External links#What not to link to: In particular, avoid links to other travel guides, including audio guides and audio tours. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 02:27, 3 February 2009 (EST)
Perhaps we should say here that we do not list these sorts of travel guides, just to be clear. - (WT-en) Huttite 04:33, 3 February 2009 (EST)
Actually it might be very helpful to have some pointers to "what not to list" which could contain a short list of things to avoid and would also point to relevant policy pages such as Project:External links#Whta not to link to, Project:Bodies of water, Project:Avoid negative reviews, Project:Don't tout, etc. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 10:43, 3 February 2009 (EST)
My apologies, I represent Geogad, and I have been refining and adding our walking tours to the wikis. The listings have recently been pulled even though they have been in some locations for awhile. These are not audio guides, but actually tours that we have put together. There are custom directions printable and a mobile platform for travelers to walk the route. I would like to know the proper location to place these, I will also remove links to the mobile site and the android applicaiton if that helps. Thanks and I look forward to a response 15:22, 3 February 2009 (EST)
If you wouldn't mind, could you read Project:Welcome, business owners and create a user account? It makes communication easier. In addition, once you've got a user page you can add information about your business on your user page. If your company actually conducts physical tours with tour guides then I don't think there's a problem with the listings, but if it's simply a service that sells/offers tapes or MP3 downloads then I think current consensus is to avoid listing those sorts of services in Wikivoyage. Consensus can always be changed, so if you feel that such services should be listed here please contribute to the discussion on Project:External links/Audio guides. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 16:18, 3 February 2009 (EST)
I'm not sure I agree, I've tried a few tour podcasts, mostly downloaded from torrents cause I suspect the quality varies greatly, and I don't want to shell out good money, on poor quality, when I can have multiple beers for the same price. Anyway, several of the ones I've tried were surprisingly good and provided in-depth information about the attractions, something which is more or less a non-goal for us - unlike say Lonely Planet - which more or less strives to be the exact same thing as we do. I've actually inadvertently broken this policy myself with a link to Audiowalks in the Copenhagen do section, since I know for a fact that they are good quality for the price. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 11:03, 3 February 2009 (EST)
Could any discussion on whether or not to list audio tours be moved to Project:External links/Audio guides? This subject has been heavily debated, leading to the current external links policy on the matter. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 11:16, 3 February 2009 (EST)
Ah my appologies --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 11:28, 3 February 2009 (EST)

Airport guidance[edit]

Swept in from pub:

Following a series of edits by User:(WT-en) DavidG, who edited several Get in by plane sections to list all the cities that can be accessed non-stop from that airport, I think we need some guidance on how to handle such cases. I'm suspicious of its usefulness, but someone else did the same thing to Albuquerque a while back and I decided to let it stay, so I'm really on the fence about this. (WT-en) PerryPlanet Talk 11:58, 2 April 2009 (EDT)

My rule of thumb is that it's useful for those airports where the destinations can be counted on the palm of one hand, but beyond that it's kinda pointless. Just name the busiest routes/airlines and let the user work out the rest. (WT-en) Jpatokal 12:29, 2 April 2009 (EDT)
One big problem with what DavidG is doing is that he's not using disambiguated links. He's linking to New York and Buffalo instead of New York (city) and Buffalo (New York) (just for two examples). (WT-en) LtPowers 21:50, 2 April 2009 (EDT)
This information is not very usfull either. There are no information about witch airlines that operates this routes. There is also the problem that routes changes often, so this information quicly get outdated. (WT-en) ViMy 09:39, 25 August 2009 (EDT)

Consulate/Embassy lists[edit]

Copied from User talk:(WT-en) AHeneen:

Hi, AHeneen. =) I saw the new section you added to Florida listing various foreign consulates throughout the state. I'm not sure I see the usefulness of such a list. Any individual traveler is only going to have a use for the consulates for his own home nation, and maybe one or two others. The rest of the list is useless to him, and it takes up a lot of space in the article. Would you consider alternative ways of presenting this information? (WT-en) LtPowers 09:22, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

The "any individual traveler" you refer to could come from any of the countries whose consulates are listed. I think it would be beneficial to many people, as the state is one of the most visited places in the US. I have come across many cities which list consulates (although not all in a given city) and thought that FL could use such a list. The goal of the Florida Expedition is to turn FL into a guide article and I think this information falls into the scope of a guide article. As for taking up space, the FL article needs more content and once it's lengthened a bit, this section won't seem so large. I don't know how to make the text smaller or make the space between listings smaller; otherwise, I'd make the listings smaller to save space. It took quite a while to complete the list and get a website for each consul. If you disagree or are still unsure, feel free to get another opinion. (WT-en) AHeneen 20:31, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
As a second opinion, I also don't think this information is useful enough to be included on a state page. I think most travelers would have the resources to find the consulate for their country if its important to them. With that said, one way to minimize the size this information takes up on the Florida page would be to create a Florida/Foreign Consulates page and make a note: "There are many Consulates in the State of Florida which can be useful to foreign travelers, see this page for a complete listing."--(WT-en) Jtesla16 20:46, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
Care to comment here? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 21:58, 5 April 2009 (EDT)'
(edit conflict) What I meant by "any individual traveler" is this: Imagine a visitor to Florida from, say, Canada. Our Canadian visitor is in Pensacola and need of the services of a consulate. Which is more useful to her: a list of all the consulates in Florida, which indicates that there is a Canadian consulate in Miami, along with dozens of others she doesn't care about; or a list of all Canadian consulates in the U.S., which tells her she could go to Atlanta instead, which is much closer? I don't in any way mean to dismiss the time and effort you put into this list, but I just think this information is better presented elsewhere and elseways. It's nothing personal, I swear. (WT-en) LtPowers 22:05, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
I see your point. To further complicate things, I should note that some countries' consulates have explicit jurisdictions which may not correspond to the closest consulate. Brazil's Miami consulate has jurisdiction over all of Florida, so you can't apply for a Brazilian visa in Atlanta. I think maybe we could create a page listing all embassies & consulates in the US by country then city. That way a Canadian in trouble could go to that page, click "Canada" in the navigation box, then see a list of consulates for Canada and determine the closest one. (WT-en) AHeneen 22:16, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

Continued from above:

We have a few very long consulate/embassy lists floating around (like this and this). They strike me as being pretty clearly useful, but use up a ton of space with information that is useless for the vast majority of readers (since any reader interested in consular information would only want it regarding one consulate). Might it be worthwhile to use sub-articles for consular information, like Chicago/Consulates, or Florida/Consulates—both of these have already been proposed, but I figure we should coordinate this, as it would be precedent setting. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 21:51, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

Seems like a good idea to me. To add to the list, I copied the format for the list in Florida from the Washington, D.C. article. (WT-en) AHeneen 22:07, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
I strongly support this idea. These YellowPage-esque listings are not appealing to the eye, and are of dubious value to most travelers. I think this info should be available, but not forced viewing for most. The only other solution which comes to mind, that would avoid making sub-articles, would be Collapsible listings. This would work like the Content boxes on each page, where one could click a "+" to expand the list of consulates, which is otherwise hidden. I don't know how to code this at the moment though. --(WT-en) Jtesla16 22:18, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
I tried out collapsible listings previously (see Template:CollapsibleTest), but the MediaWiki extensions needed for them don't seem to be enabled. (WT-en) Jpatokal 22:51, 7 April 2009 (EDT)
For some reason collapsible listings are functional on the Metadata tables for Images, but when I place the code into a typical edit window, it does not work. Any ideas why? --(WT-en) Jtesla16 11:55, 8 April 2009 (EDT)

Health/handicap section?[edit]

Swept in from pub:

I'm a big wikivoyage fan, but I was wondering if a section could be added for special health condition or handicap tips. Or should those just be integrated into normal discussion more? For example, my friend has a bum knee, and it's really helpful to him to know about cable cars he can take, or say, tall buildings with elevators he can take for the view rather than climbing churches. Or for my sister, who suffers from IBS (like having traveler's tummy all the time) and always wants to know if she's going to be trapped on a bus without a bathroom for hours, things like that. 01:11, 3 May 2009 (EDT)Heidi

Its a great ideal to have this information on Wikivoyage. Typically, however, we don't make separate sections for particularly classes of travellers. All the information just goes into the appropriate part of the guide. Please plunge forward and add it. The where to stick it guide references some disabled information. However, if there is some precedent for itineraries and travel topics for classes of travellers, and I think a Seeing New York (city) by wheelchair would be a perfectly reasonable travel topic (or itinerary) --(WT-en) Inas 01:17, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

Cool, will do. -- Heidi
An access="" tag as part of listing would also be very useful, it could contain access difficulties, possibilities and tips. --(WT-en) inas 07:34, 17 June 2009 (EDT)

See vs. Do, again[edit]

One of the hardest things to figure out about where to stick something is whether it goes under "See" or "Do". This article, I'm afraid, might only heighten that confusion, as it places sedentary activities like going to the theater under "Do", while active attractions like zoos (which can require a fair bit of walking) are under "See". "Famous buildings/structures" are under "See" but walking tours of those very buildings are under "Do".

I realize this has been raised before but I think it's time to definitively address this. I think longtime contributors have an instinctive understanding of what goes where, but that understanding may not be correctly described on this page.

Thoughts? -- (WT-en) LtPowers 10:48, 23 May 2009 (EDT)

Not sure. With regards to a zoo being a "Do" for the amount of walking, is it really more about interacting with something or just looking at things (animals)? Some zoos or pseudo-zoos (like Bush Gardens or Sea World in the US) are very interactive, with rides, shows, etc. and would be fine under "Do" and then there are zoos where you simply look at animals and are very appropriate for "see". I think zoos should be split because walking shouldn't be a factor. Many attractions require lots of walking, but are really about seeing things. Take Versailles for example, it is a huge complex and requires lots of walking...but isn't it about "seeing" something? There are lots of large museums which require walking, but aren't they about seeing what's in them? As far as building go, listing them under "see" is very appropriate, while a tour is appropriate under do. For instance, it is one thing to "see" (from the outside) Toronto's CN Tower, or Paris' Eiffel Tower, or Rio's Christ the is another to eat at the top of the CN Tower; climb the Eiffel Tower; or climb up to the CtR statue. See my point. If walking tours are offered of just one sight, then they can be listed under the attraction or mentioned as part of it:
  • Building X, 12 X St. (Corner of X & Y Sts.). A historic building in the heart of the ZZ National Historic District.
    • Bob's Building X Tours. Take a 2 hour guided walking tour of historic Building X. All our guides are locals with at least 5 years of experience leading tours!
  • Building X, 12 X St. (Corner of X & Y Sts.). A historic building in the heart of the ZZ National Historic District. Many guided walking tours are available from neighboring tourist shops as well official National Park Service staff.
Otherwise, if a walking tour is available for multiple sights or a district, then I think it would be very appropriate to place in the "Do" section while the individual attractions remain in the "See" section. Just my thoughts.(WT-en) AHeneen 14:24, 23 May 2009 (EDT)
I think the confusion comes from our stylish, but occasionally opaque header names. Replace "see" with sights and "do" with activities, and it becomes clearer where things go. Theater is an activity, if not a particularly active one. Tours are clearly activities. Zoos are somewhere in between, but I'm happy for them to stay in "see." Parks are often very tricky—in some cases the point of going there is just to marvel at its beauty, whereas they are often more relevant for sports, picnics, etc. Sherman Park in Chicago is one of the former, since a picnic there could too easily be disrupted by gunfire, but then again we put it in the "do" section just because it parallels Marquette Park well. I don't think we need to be too rigid with borderline cases. But theater still seems straightforward enough of an "activity" that I think we should keep it firmly in "do." --(WT-en) Peter Talk 14:33, 23 May 2009 (EDT)
But why is viewing a play "do" while viewing an exhibit "see"? That's what I don't quite get. Is it because one is scheduled? The example listing on Project:Activity listings is Shakespeare's Globe Theatre, which seems the epitome of an attraction to me, not an activity. (WT-en) LtPowers 14:52, 23 May 2009 (EDT)
It seems to be like this:
"See" is for a physical attraction (a physical thing or place), even if it involves a lot of walking around to see it.
"Do" is for:
  1. Things that are not physical attractions (rather, an activity, an event or a performance), even if the travellers themselves are not physically active.
  2. Places you go primarily to do activities, eg, an amusement park.
So the difference between viewing (looking at) an exhibit and viewing (watching) a play is that an exhibit is a physical attraction, while a play is an activity (albeit one performed by other than the traveller).
I presume a garden-like city park is "See", but a sports field kind of city park would be "Do", and there will be a gray area of city parks in-between. Beaches were long regarded as places primarily for doing things, akin to an amusement park; since Sep 2011 they have been regarded primarily as attractions to look at. For places with a well-developed beach culture, "Do" is probably still the better section, while for places without (due to climate or general culture), "See" may indeed be better. Nurg (talk) 08:52, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Right, the distinction is between "sights" as in sightseeing, and other activities.
Some people think of beaches more for looking at, others like myself consider them playgrounds—this might be a cultural thing. --Peter Talk 09:36, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Neighbourhoods section?[edit]

Swept in from pub:

Often times in cities, a neighbourhood doesn't have anything specific, whether that be a retail strip, a museum, or a tourist trap, but it's still a neat area to look around. Portland has descriptions for many neighbourhoods. I made it a seperate section. What do you guys think? Is it useful to have on it's own? Calgary would be another good example. (WT-en) edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 18:27, 5 June 2009 (EDT).

Or should it be an "orientation" subsection of understand? – (WT-en) cacahuate talk 21:58, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
Or of "Get around"? (WT-en) LtPowers 10:43, 6 June 2009 (EDT)
Much of it really is saying what there is to do or see there, even if it is just a bunch of old houses. If people aren't interested in old houses, then they probably won't to go there. The info there could easily be placed under the relevant sections. However, I take the point that it reads well as an introduction to the city as well. If you want to keep it reading like that I agree with (WT-en) Cacahuate --(WT-en) inas 21:52, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
I've seen them both in Get around and Understand. I'm guessing I should just put it into their desired sections. (WT-en) edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 19:20, 9 June 2009 (EDT).
I think the important thing to ask is why it is a neat area to look around. Is it because it's pretty? Then put it in "See". Is it because there are a lot of neat little shops that aren't worth full listings individually? Then put it in "Buy". That sort of thing. If you want to describe all of the neighborhoods and how they're related to each other, then it should go in "Understand" or "Get around". (WT-en) LtPowers 08:41, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

Question about article placement[edit]

Swept in from pub:

Hello all...I'm interested in contributing some articles about car parking options that are available at various UK airports, with details on security features, types of vehicles allowed, distances from the airport terminal, etc, which I think would be helpful to air travellers.

I submitted a couple on Wikipedia, but was advised that they might be more welcome here. So, to make sure I'm going about this correctly (since it takes me a while to get these articles together...ha!), I wanted to ask for advice on "where to stick them". Should there be a general category of "Airport car parks" or should my articles be listed under an existing airport's page (if one exists)?

Any advice is most welcome...thanks!

(WT-en) Stefanchou 07:54, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

Articles on Wikivoyage are structured pretty differently from Wikipedia; see Project:What is an article?. Basically, information about airport car parks belongs wherever the airport belongs: a few huge ones have standalone articles (Heathrow Airport), most don't and are just in the main town article (Glasgow#By plane). (WT-en) Jpatokal 09:11, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

Limo listings[edit]

Swept in from pub:

Recently I've been noticing a lot of listings for limo rental companies being added to Wikivoyage articles. I'm unsure what our policy on these are. I suppose one could argue they are essentially car rental companies, and thus should be allowed here, but I'm leaning on the side of removing them, since renting a limo is something only a certain set of people can do and limo renting strikes me as something you're more likely to do when you're, say, getting married, not while traveling. Then again, I'm too poor to ever hope to see the inside of a limo, so perhaps I'm just being bigoted. Is there a policy on this someone can point me to? (WT-en) PerryPlanet Talk 12:06, 18 July 2009 (EDT)

We get some worrisome spam in this category, and it's very difficult to check whether a "limo service" is at all legitimate or desirable here. There was a guy adding himself to articles throughout the Amalfi Coast for a while, and I've seen that in other places too. (Maybe I should offer my own limo services from Midway into downtown...) The few discussions I'm finding on this topic (Talk:New_York_City#Limo_rentals & at Talk:Rome) decided in favor of removing limo sections altogether. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 15:11, 18 July 2009 (EDT)
There are occasions in which it may be cheaper to hire (say) a town car for a particular trip than a taxi. Even if a limousine is overkill, those companies sometimes have town cars and the like available for a fee not far removed from a cab. But I also don't think we should get in the habit of listing every limo company in an area. (WT-en) LtPowers 22:16, 18 July 2009 (EDT)


Should day spas go under "Cope" (with the hair salons, makeup parlors, and manicurists) or "Do" (with the swimming pools and other exercise-related activities)? (WT-en) LtPowers 19:11, 27 July 2009 (EDT)

Do. They are an attraction at the destination, and a popular activity when travelling. Not a basic service just to get by, which is what is implied by Cope. --(WT-en) inas 23:52, 27 July 2009 (EDT)
I might suggest we add "massage" as a keyword to the "Where you can stick it" page. (WT-en) Zepppep 17:57, 6 April 2011 (EDT)
Plunge forward! (WT-en) LtPowers 21:30, 7 April 2011 (EDT)

Car rental agencies[edit]

Discussion moved to Project:External links#Car rental agencies

Dive sites[edit]

Moved in from the main article so this can be hammered into a more succinct form. Below written by User:(WT-en) Pbsouthwood. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 17:20, 28 August 2009 (EDT)

  • dive site - This is a case which does not fit in well with the general guidelines for articles. If the destination only has a small number of recognised dive sites it may be possible to fit them into the Do section of the main article, but in the case of destinations which have a large number of sites which are described in detail, it may be more appropriate for each site to be a short article. This arrangement is being explored in the topic Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay, in which the main aticle is linked from the Do section of the relevant City (Cape Town) and provides regional dive guide information, which is then linked to the individual dive sites, each of which provides detailed information to allow a visitor to plan and execute a dive at the site with or without use of local guides (people)
I think it's sufficient to just say that diving goes in Do. If a specific article has so many sites that they need to be split out, well that's no different than any other activity. (WT-en) LtPowers 20:06, 28 August 2009 (EDT)

Fire and Police[edit]

What section does the fire department or police department go under, where can I stick it? (WT-en) OHWiki 20:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

That depends on what kind of information you wish to impart. If it involves emergency numbers, it goes in Stay safe (though you should probably only list them if 911 or some other generic emergency number isn't available). If they're historic locations or otherwise worth visiting, they go in See. (WT-en) LtPowers 21:53, 26 September 2009 (EDT)

taxi scams and safety for airport[edit]

I have found a verbose advice on safety and scams on getting in from airport by taxi in Lison: Lisbon#Getting from/to the airport. Should it stay in GetIn:ByPlane:Taxi, or move to GetAround:ByTaxi, or move to StaySafe section of the city article? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 13:38, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

It appears to present concerns about leaving or getting to the airport, therefore it belongs in Get In#By plane. (WT-en) LtPowers 16:23, 11 October 2009 (EDT)


So if I wanted to emphasize somewhere it's pronounced CopenHAYgen and not all too common (and German like) CopenHAHgen, where would I do that? it doesn't really fit well with the introduction. and what would be the correct pseudo pronunciation be by the way? --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) talk 09:47, 4 November 2009 (EST)

I always though the correct Danish pronunciation was to insert a hot potato in your mouth and then grunt out "k'bn-AH-vn" =P
Slightly more seriously, either the first sentence of the article or the beginning of the Understand section should work. (WT-en) Jpatokal 11:12, 4 November 2009 (EST)
Based solely on our Project:Pseudo-phoneticization guide, I would render it as "KOH-pehn-HAH-gehn". But I'm not an expert at our pronunciation conventions. =) (WT-en) LtPowers 15:30, 4 November 2009 (EST)
I'd either place it after the Danish spelling, like Wikipedia :
Copenhagen (Danish: København, pronounced: KOP-en-HAY-gn), [4], ...
or place a "Pronunciation" section (with a couple of sentences) as the first thing under "understand". This second option (or using both) may be better, as Copenhagen is a city where the English pronunciation differs from the local language's pronunciation (like Paris, Montreal, Pyongyang, and more).(WT-en) AHeneen 01:12, 10 December 2009 (EST)
I've always pronounced it "KOH-pehn-HAY-gehn". Is that wrong? (WT-en) LtPowers 13:53, 10 December 2009 (EST)
The trick is whether we're explaining how to pronounce it in English or Danish. In Danish, I think Jani's version is disturbingly accurate... Wikipedia gives us this little IPA treat: kʰøb̥ənˈhaʊ̯ˀn. I think the best we could do using the Project:Pseudo-phoneticization guide would be koe-buhn-AHVN or more closely koe-bn-AHVN? In English, it's KOH-pehn-hay-gehn, as per Stefan's infobox.
According to Project:Foreign_words#Proper_names, we should format the intro like so:
Copenhagen (Danish: København koe-bn-AHVN) [5] is the capital...
If we're properly adhering to our standard format, the English pronunciation should be dealt with elsewhere, and I think it's fine to do it in that infobox. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 14:29, 10 December 2009 (EST)

Cooking School and Thai Boxing School[edit]

Where to put them, in Learn or Do? (WT-en) Globe-trotter 21:45, 9 December 2009 (EST)

Learn. Cooking schools have long gone there, Thai boxing school, to the extent they are teaching, should be Learn also. --(WT-en) inas 21:47, 9 December 2009 (EST)

kindergarden / babysitter service[edit]

Where do we stick it, for example for a alpine skiing destination? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 16:50, 1 February 2010 (EST)

Not really sure, but I'd think Cope? --(WT-en) globe-trotter 17:07, 1 February 2010 (EST)
That's exactly what I started with for Mayrhofen, but Cope is not in a template for a small city. Is that an obstacle? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 18:40, 1 February 2010 (EST)
Not an obstacle, just add the Cope header if its necessary for that destination :) --(WT-en) globe-trotter 18:55, 1 February 2010 (EST)
Definitely Cope. The small city template has limited headings only for convenience. It's expandable when needed. (WT-en) LtPowers 18:59, 1 February 2010 (EST)
Thanks, updated the list accordingly. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 19:22, 1 February 2010 (EST)
LtPowers, following your edit [6]: I am not very happy with my English--could you suggest a better name if kindergarten doesn't fit the type of service we mean here? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 05:05, 2 February 2010 (EST)
Babysitting, daycare, childcare. (WT-en) LtPowers 09:12, 2 February 2010 (EST)

discount cards[edit]

Where should they go, if they cover both attractions, shops and transport? See Lisbon, Vienna and Innsbruck as examples. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 10:31, 6 February 2010 (EST)

I would look for these in the Buy section, regardless of what they cover. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 11:12, 6 February 2010 (EST)
For me, that's the least expected place. Isn't Buy on shopping only?
Personally, I would find a subsection in Understand (as of one the few general sections) as most logical. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 11:43, 6 February 2010 (EST)
Yes, Understand (perhaps under Visitor Information) or maybe Get In. (WT-en) LtPowers 20:48, 6 February 2010 (EST)
A discount card is normally something you buy that makes things you buy later, cheaper. In that case it should go in the buy section I think. The buy section is not just for shopping but for cost information, banks, atms, changing money etc., right? --(WT-en) Burmesedays 03:10, 7 February 2010 (EST)
I would look for these cards in the sections they primarily relate to. If a transport discount card also gives you a discount to a few attractions and shops, I would still put it in Get around; if a museum discount card also gives you some discount for transport, I would still put in in See (if needed with a reference from Get around). If it cannot be decided what the card primarily relates to, I would reluctantly put it in a subsection in Understand. So, the Vienna card being put in Get around seems ok as it is a card for free transport for three days which also gives a few € of discount to some shops and museums; the Innsbruck card is a bit more difficult as it gives both free sightseeing and transport, but as it does not make sense to buy the card for transport only, I would still keep it in See where it is now; for the same reasons I would move the Lisboa card to See
The disadvantage of the above suggestion is that it is not very clear and that the contributor to the article has to make a subjective assessment of where best to put the information on the card. The advantage is that the information will be in its natural place, which I think is not with the other more overall information given in Understand. I think it would be a mistake to make a general rule that the cards should be in Understand whenever they relate to more than one section, that would move a lot of detailed information to Understand where it does not belong, (WT-en) ClausHansen 03:48, 7 February 2010 (EST)
I think that's the best and most logical option. What if I summarize it as "stick to the section where the card gives the most radical advantage / saving; in doubt put to Understand, and someone else will follow up"? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 07:41, 7 February 2010 (EST)

sightseeing bus: See or Get Around?[edit]

See Sightseer in Innsbruck for example. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 10:38, 6 February 2010 (EST)

It can be in a Tours subsection of See. But I think Wikivoyage doesn't list tours, unless its something you cannot do on your own. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 10:42, 6 February 2010 (EST)
Providing the tour passes the guideline (most do not), then definitely in See. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 11:14, 6 February 2010 (EST)

Should we nuke Sightseer mention for Innsbruck? And if it's heavily advertised, shouldn't we warn it's not worth the money? (there's a separate issue how we judge whether it's heavily advertised or not). --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 11:43, 6 February 2010 (EST)
Actually, tours should only ever be listed as activities, under Do. This is purposeful, as the tour criteria allow only tours that constitute a value-added activity. I'm pretty sure we have been ruling out tour buses altogether, as a tourist could fulfill the substance of the tour on their own via public transport/car + one of our travel guides. If we were going to start listing them, I think the only appropriate place would actually be in the "Get around" section. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 14:37, 6 February 2010 (EST)
Not if the bus doesn't let you off during the tour; then you're hardly getting around. Regardless, I agree "Do" is the place for tours that meet our guidelines, like the "Duck" tours in Pittsburgh or Boston. (WT-en) LtPowers 20:47, 6 February 2010 (EST)
Specifically, Sightseer for Innsbruck doesn't offer added value, allow letting off and coming back--but is sold only(?) as a part of Innsbruck Card. So if we still list the card, is it OK to also give few details on the bus that comes as a obligatory supplement to it? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 02:28, 7 February 2010 (EST)
See and do classifcations not only confuse new users, but also fairly experienced editors like globe-trotter and myself :). But let's not open up that discussion which must have been beaten to death in the past. Just on the criteria for tours, "could fulfil the substance of the tour on their own" is not always imposed. London#Tours is a good example of tours that a visitor could manage on their own but nonetheless add value to the article. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 03:34, 7 February 2010 (EST)

Then, how would you suggest to decide on Innsbruck? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 07:43, 7 February 2010 (EST)

Correct category for luggage storage[edit]

Swept in from the pub

I often spend a few hours in a town on my way to my final destination, and for this purpose, luggage lockers or luggage offices are rather useful to lock away the greater part of my travelling gear. I'd like to add a line regarding these things to a couple of towns, however I'm wandering where this best fits in the existing structure of most articles. Ok, the luggage storage at Cork's "Parnell Place" bus station is easy enough -- I assume that wants to be in "Get in / by bus". However, what about the internet café in Dublin's centre, that just happens to have a "left luggage service" in addition the usual row of computer terminals? As far as I can tell, it doesn't fit in any of the pre-existing categories. Where does this sort of thing want to go? --(WT-en) Dave b 19:10, 10 August 2009 (EDT)

See Project:Where you can stick it. Best to put the info into Get in, for consistency, although I can see arguments for a few different sections. --(WT-en) inas 19:14, 10 August 2009 (EDT)
In Bangkok/Khao San Road, luggage storage is placed at Cope. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 20:24, 15 February 2010 (EST)
In 99% of cases the luggage storage is going to be at one of the places we are already talking about in the Get in section, and that is because most people want to store their luggage while getting in or out. --(WT-en) inas 21:01, 15 February 2010 (EST)


This article tells us that beaches should go into the Do section. I am wondering why, as the See section seems more appropriate. This has just come up here: Talk:Bukit_Peninsula#Beaches. I have written about beaches a lot in the various Bali articles, and used the rule of thumb that general beach info ("it's a lovely beach, go have a look") goes into the See section, and activities which may be related to the beach (snorkeling, diving, motorised watersports etc), go into the Do section. Bali went to star guide with beaches under Landscape in the See section. I am not grasping the activity element involved in looking at a beach. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 04:22, 16 February 2010 (EST)

I think the idea behind it is that not many people look at a beach, but travellers are usually involved in activities there, such as sunbathing, surfing, swimming, etc. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 05:00, 16 February 2010 (EST)
I guess that is the idea, but those activities can be dealt with sensibly in the Do section. I go to look at beaches all the time to take in the seascape etc. And just going to the beach to sunbathe/laze around/read a book (probably the commonest reason for going there) is surely not an activity?--(WT-en) Burmesedays 05:06, 16 February 2010 (EST)
Yeah, it is. If the beach is scenic and doesn't involve a lot of people hanging around sunbathing, See is fine, but most beach-goers are doing an activity, not seeing an attraction. (WT-en) LtPowers 08:24, 16 February 2010 (EST)
OK. In that case I have been doing it right — See section for "have a look, take it in, watch the sunset, have a chill etc" and then the specific activities in Do. That should probably be clarified in this article. See and Do distinctions still confuse me. You Do watching an opera, but See walking around a botanical gardens. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 08:36, 16 February 2010 (EST)
I know; see #See vs. Do, again. I'm still not sure I understand it as well as the originators of the distinction, but I think I'm getting the hang of it. "See" seems to be almost exclusively for things that would be classified as "sightseeing", while "Do" is for everything else. If you go to Radio City Music Hall for a tour, that's "See", but if you go there for a show, that's "Do". =) (WT-en) LtPowers 10:18, 16 February 2010 (EST)
I'm starting to find this odd though. A beach is not an activity, it's a natural attraction. Surfing is an activity. In Thailand many beaches are even national parks. I think beaches are better dealt with in the See section. We've been having this problem especially with countries, where it'd be odd to split natural attractions between See and Do. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 12:38, 10 September 2011 (EDT)
Some beaches may be attractions in their own right, but most city public beaches are just a place for activities like sunbathing and swimming. (WT-en) LtPowers 18:31, 10 September 2011 (EDT)
If the beach is a natural attraction in its own right, then I always put it into See. The activities belong in Do, not the sight itself. I think WT has been murky on this issue and the distinction should be defined correctly.--(WT-en) burmesedays 20:51, 10 September 2011 (EDT)

I'm going to come down firmly on the side of See here. Even the "most city public beaches" LtPowers refers to above are still nice looking places or people wouldn't go there, basically no different than a park, which goes in the see section. Parks are just places where people sit around on the grass or bench and let their kids play, or play tennis or whatever. It's not that different from sitting around in a beach chair. I don't think parks or beaches are activities -- you do things there because it's a nice-looking place, and besides, there are lots of beaches or other seaside landscapes in colder climes that are not used for traditional beach activities but are nevertheless very lovely sights. It doesn't make any sense at all to me to have parks in See and beaches in Do. I think beaches should go in See, and obvious activities like sunbathing and surfing can be mentioned there. If there are non-obvious activities, like hang-glider rental or whatever, they can be listed in Do, with the beach name in the address field. (WT-en) texugo 23:43, 10 September 2011 (EDT)

Interesting that beaches have been "Do" and parks have been "See" since Evan's very earliest revisions of the page. Who knows why he made the distinction. Maybe it was to keep beaches with swimming pools and other aquatic activities? Nonetheless, I am persuaded that parks and beaches should be in the same section. (WT-en) LtPowers 13:14, 11 September 2011 (EDT)
Strong support from me for that also. Beaches into See, specific activities like snorkeling, surfing etc stay in Do.--(WT-en) burmesedays 13:28, 11 September 2011 (EDT)


Well here we are almost two years later, and I'm having second thoughts. I don't know anyone who goes to a beach just to look around. A beach is a location for activities like swimming. If someone says they're "going to the beach", I assume they're going to go swimming. Some beaches might be attractions, but most beaches are just a place for activities. LtPowers (talk) 14:43, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I will stick with what I said above. As with parks, activities at beaches are merely secondary and are conducted there specifically because the beach is a nice place to see. Available activities may be slightly different, but I do not see any essential difference between a city park that happens to be next to the sea and one three blocks away with a swimming pool, tennis court, and running track. Yes, both parks and beaches may (or may not) have activities, but the greater point is that they are nice settings, and since we need to choose one section or the other, I think See makes the most sense, especially in light of the fact that some parks and beaches may not actually have any activities, or may only be good for sunbathing, which is not really an activity at all, only inactivity in a bathing suit. The only other solution would be to allow putting some beaches and parks in See and some in Do (even within the same article), but I think this is a very bad idea in terms of consistency and intuitive placement of information. Texugo (talk) 15:06, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
In my experience, the placement of beaches has very little to do with the available scenery and everything to do with where there is sand and easy access to water. For swimming. There may be a few beaches that don't "have any activities", but I believe those are usually called coastlines. Beaches are for swimming. LtPowers (talk) 18:14, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Maybe it's just because despite living in a country full of great beaches, I practically never swim when I go to the beach, but even ignoring beaches in cold climates/winter, I fail to see how the activities available at a typical beach (swimming, walking, sunbathing, reading a book, having a picnic, playing catch) would put beaches in Do while the activities available at a typical park (walking, bicycling, reading a book, playing catch, having a picnic, playing a sport) would put parks in See. You agreed with me above. Are you now convinced that beaches should be treated differently from parks just because they have water? Texugo (talk) 18:42, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
I guess I'm no longer convinced that parks should be in See, either. On the other hand, parks seem somewhat more likely to be purely scenic than a beach, but maybe that's just me. LtPowers (talk) 19:35, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
LtPowers, I hope you have the chance some day to visit Pfeiffer Beach in Big Sur. If you do, you'll find the scene breathtaking, but unless you have a wet suit or a very high tolerance for cold, you aren't likely to swim. Is it exceptional? Yeah, it's exceptional as a beach in a similar way that the Louvre is exceptional as a museum, perhaps. Don't get me wrong; I do get your point, but I find it too fine a point. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:18, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Like I said, some beaches are purely scenic, but the fact that they're a beach is coincidental -- they could be any scenic area. City beaches, on the other hand, are rarely scenic, and are designed for swimming and other beach activities. LtPowers (talk) 14:10, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
Wait, wha—parks go in See? I've always included in them in Do. I have trouble thinking of an environment as a sight, and think of parks and beaches as environs in which you "do" various things like swim, canoodle, lather, picnic, play sports, attend a concert, grill food, smoke cigars, walk the dog, etc. How often do you go to a beach or park to just stare at it? --Peter Talk 07:20, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
That's what I've been saying. LtPowers (talk) 13:30, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
Part of the problem might be the question of at what level we are discussing beaches or parks. If we're figuring out where to put them at a higher level in the hierarchy, then I could see considering national/state/provincial parks as "attractions." But at the bottom level (cities/districts)—it would seem really weird to include municipal beaches and parks in see. --Peter Talk 07:13, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
Well it wouldn't be the first thing that can vary like that. We have separate listings for caves (caving) and caves (sightseeing), and for church (religious services) and church (sightseeing). We could say beach (scenic)' and beach (swimming), for instance. LtPowers (talk) 13:59, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Visa run[edit]

Here [7] we have visa run under "do". I'm pretty sure that is wrong, but where else should we put it? Placing it under "get in" is a bit weird, because it is about getting out. But placing it under get out also strikes me as a bit stange— as it is not a destination, but mere paperwork. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 11:39, 20 February 2010 (EST)

I would generally keep all the visa information in Get in, and I do not find it weird to have the visa run information there as well as it is about how to get in again, (WT-en) ClausHansen 11:53, 20 February 2010 (EST)
I would say Get in, perhaps with its own sub-heading. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 11:54, 20 February 2010 (EST)
Get in for sure. Visas are used for both entering and exiting, not just exiting. Furthermore, the Get out section is used to visit nearby (or at times, far away places but almost always in the same country) places--thus, visas would largely be unnecessary to list info about again. Any helpful info. for getting back to the airport/train station, etc. would also be listed in Get in, even though the WTer is leaving. (WT-en) Zepppep 17:52, 6 April 2011 (EDT)


Swept in from the pub

I've watched travel guide shows and read some travel magazines, their travel info includes like "See the tribes of...", so like if we add that here where would it be listed? Would it be in the do or see section? Adding this might also help the travelers know the country more by experiencing the cultures and traditions of indigenous tribes that haven't much affected.(WT-en) SnappyHip

It would probably be in "Do", as in most cases it would require an expedition of some sort. Although I admit to some unease over treating people as tourist attractions. Unless the tribes specifically welcome travelers, it may be better to put information under "Culture" in the "Understand" section. (WT-en) LtPowers 10:22, 4 February 2010 (EST)
If it is really specific (eg "go to village Z to see tribe X"), you could add to the see section of the relevant article. Could be a country, region or city article, but I find this sort of information often sits well in the region article. If it is not specific, but rather a general statement about the ethnicity of the area, then it will probably sit best in the understand section, perhaps with a culture sub-heading. I agree with LTPowers that where possible it is better to treat as a cultural topic, rather than a specific attraction. I guess you are talking about tribes in the Philippines? Here is an example of how I dealt with the Tenggerese in Java in an understand section: Bromo-Tengger-Semeru National Park. Alternatively, it can be sensitively addressed in a see section, as with the Bali Aga here. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 10:26, 4 February 2010 (EST)
Thanks LtPowers and Burmesedays :). Cheers - (WT-en) SnappyHip

how to rate size of duty-free shops[edit]

swept in from pub:

I frequently include info on airport dutyfree shops, but it's still unclear for me how to compare/measure different airports in terms of number/size of dutyfree stores.

Number of shops looks good, but is not always applicable: e.g. Dubai has a single area for everything. Square meters looks much more objective and universal, but: (a) to understand the size, you can only compare it to other airports you been to (and typically you won't have Wikivoyage guides for them when traveling), (b) looks like it's not widely available and published at airport sites. Ideal measurement is total number of items available, but that's absolutely theorethical metrics.

Anyone else interested in the topic, any suggestions? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 17:57, 1 February 2010 (EST)

I don't really understand the goal for this? Is it for a travel topic about duty free shopping? --(WT-en) globe-trotter 19:42, 1 February 2010 (EST)
No, for now only on "duty-free shop" sections for large city articles. See Vienna#Duty-free shopping and Budapest#Terminals for example.
Creating a travel topic is also on my list of someday-maybes, but I'm not sure there's enough content in the topic to become a separate article (while a section in nonexistent "Buy" article may be a good candidate). --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 20:03, 1 February 2010 (EST)

Hi! There is a debate ongoing on the Talk:Vienna#Duty_free site about if we really need to have duty free shops in the Get in section of articles. I really doubt that as due to the carry-on restrictions of liquids (by the administration) and size (by airlines) it is not really a value for travellers. E.g. Frankfurt Airport currently seizes three tons (3'000 kilogrammm / 6'600 lbs.) of goods from travellers per day (and other airports are known to have even bigger volumes) and most duty free can't be transited any more. Also today on the curbside of airports there are shops were travellers can buy to local prices. Denis started to insert at some airports duty free section and it would be good to discuss what are the guidelines for it. I can't see the profit of listings for shops at airports as the main goal for the Get in section is to inform travellers on how to reach the city/region etc. and not on how to shop in between. I can only imagine a general travel topic about it that features the top10 duty free shopping areas in the world. (WT-en) jan 04:16, 31 March 2010 (EDT)

To start with, "duty free shop in airport" is in WTSI for more than 3 years [8], and it never faced any challenge before (I even believe that I added it as a result of someone's suggestion, but can't find that discussion right now). --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 16:06, 31 March 2010 (EDT)
It's hardly used so far and i suggest we keep it that way. (WT-en) jan 17:05, 31 March 2010 (EDT)
Duty-free shops should be in "Buy", as far as I'm concerned. (WT-en) LtPowers 10:19, 1 April 2010 (EDT)

Originally my question was on how to write on duty-free shops, not where to stick it. I wonder how we technically split discussion in such cases (copy a relevant piece to a ontopic talk page?). And I wonder where best to stick the original question; clearly it doesn't belong here. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 16:30, 17 August 2010 (EDT)

Jan's question probably should have been a separate thread, especially since it came almost two months after yours. I don't see a problem with splitting the thread there. (WT-en) LtPowers 21:33, 17 August 2010 (EDT)
Thank you. So where to move the original thread? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 03:41, 18 August 2010 (EDT)


Where should information on pets go? Pet safety, kennels, pet-friendly accommodations, etc. (WT-en) LtPowers 19:09, 17 August 2010 (EDT)

Cope I think. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 13:45, 30 September 2010 (EDT)

Exhibition and convention centers[edit]

Anyone knows where these go? See or Do? --(WT-en) globe-trotter 20:26, 22 August 2010 (EDT)

I'm not sure what one is. Can you give an example? (WT-en) LtPowers 21:22, 22 August 2010 (EDT)
I mean large buildings that host large events, like the Kölnmesse [9] in Cologne, the RAI [10] in Amsterdam and the QSNCC [11] in Bangkok. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 07:33, 24 August 2010 (EDT)
Most events held in such places would be under "Do". I don't know if the buildings themselves need a listing; would anyone visit them without going to a specific event? (WT-en) LtPowers 14:32, 24 August 2010 (EDT)
I generally put these on the map, and mention them in the understand section when they are big and relevant enough, but I'm not sure we need actual listings for them. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 16:41, 24 August 2010 (EDT)

Hospitals and police[edit]

Hospitals here are listed under "cope", and I just added police stations under there as well. But wouldn't these be more logical under Stay healthy and Stay safe? And what about dentistries? --(WT-en) globe-trotter 11:41, 2 September 2010 (EDT)

  • I tend to agree. Note, though, that "Stay healthy" is usually only used in country and large region articles; most destination articles will have only a "Stay safe" section. (WT-en) LtPowers 16:33, 2 September 2010 (EDT)
I'd go with Stay safe for police stations, but that's not where they go according to Project:Where you can stick it. Police stations are much more likely to be frequented by a traveler than, say, a health club (that's not inside a hotel), and furthermore, questions of safety seem to be asked more than "where is the nearest Bally's?". Dentist offices under Cope. They seem to be listed less frequently than religious services, which also go under Cope, but if folks are creating the section for religion, then I 'spose they can do the same for a dentistry. (WT-en) Zepppep 17:47, 6 April 2011 (EDT)

Animal abuse[edit]

In Bangkok, I placed a section on animal abuse in the Bangkok#Stay safe section, as I didn't know any better place for itt. Where would it best fit? --(WT-en) globe-trotter 13:48, 30 September 2010 (EDT)

I'd say "Stay safe" works. "Buy" might seem appropriate for the elephant warning on the surface (since it's something you're being pressured to purchase), but I think we can all agree it would seem out of place there. Sometimes you have to just group similar information together, even if the header doesn't perfectly fit; "Stay safe" is really kind of a "watch out for" section. (WT-en) LtPowers 22:05, 30 September 2010 (EDT)


Coffee seems to me to be quintessentially a "Drink" topic, but Inas disagrees. Thoughts? (WT-en) LtPowers 17:08, 15 December 2010 (EST)

My argument is that our Eat section is about restaurants, food, and the drinks which accompany them. Our Drink section is what would be a Nightlife section in other guides, includes bars, nightclubs. This makes it easy to see what goes in what section.
This is set out quite clearly in our template, where it says the Drink section is For bars, clubs, and other nightlife. Yes, many people go out to clubs and don't drink; the name of the section is still Drink.
If in the locale, Coffee is a drink which is largely taken at breakfast with a bagel or muffin, then Drink is clearly the wrong place for it in my opinion. If a Coffee Shop constitutes what the locals would do to go out and pass the evening away, then that is a different story. --(WT-en) inas 17:23, 15 December 2010 (EST)
I must have been doing it wrong all this time. I've always listed cafes in Drink, under in its own Coffee heading. There is a spectrum of cafes, from ones who specialise in good coffee but also sell muffins - to cafes that have a full menu but also keep a coffee machine. The decision to put it in Eat or Drink depends entirely on why the traveller would go there - to just drink coffee or to eat, with a coffee on the side. Nonetheless, where ever they are listed, it would be helpful to caffeine lovers to separate specialist coffee places out from the rest of the listings to highlight cafes with good coffee from the rest. I think I just said the same thing as Inas. - (WT-en) Cardboardbird 23:36, 15 December 2010 (EST)
I would answer it the same way we do pubs/bars that also sell food. Put the listing in the section for which a patron would most likely venture to that establishment--if they are a bar that also serves (marginal) food, they would go under Drink. People go out for any number of reasons to various drinking establishments--to dance, to mingle, to tap their toe to sax solos, to sip fine ales--the fact that the drink might be coffee shouldn't matter. As the above states, if a restaurant happens to serve coffee but their food is killer, then we'd put them under Eat; if locals are trekking it to the local java joint specifically because their known for wonderful beans, then Drink seems to be where I'd put the listing. There are also lots of places which specialize in coffee but also sell alcohol, especially if they have live events (music, poetry readings, etc.) and therefore it makes even more sense to put them in Drink. In the end, if a java joint is clearly labeled under a subsection (such as "Coffee", no matter in Drink or Eat), it should prove helpful to WTers. (WT-en) Zepppep 17:29, 6 April 2011 (EDT)

electricity outlets and voltage; toilets[edit]

I wonder where pieces of this section should go: electricity outlets and voltage; toilets. I definitely believe they shouldn't be in Contact anyway. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 16:30, 27 January 2011 (EST)

No, certainly not "Contact". When in doubt, go with "Understand". (WT-en) LtPowers 19:19, 27 January 2011 (EST)
I put toilets in Cope. Electricity in Understand. Whether water is potable or not in Stay Healthy. --(WT-en) inas 20:44, 27 January 2011 (EST)
So OK to create Cope section for country article merely for toilets, as it's the case for France?
Updated the page with everything else. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 18:42, 28 January 2011 (EST)

Some Learn section questions[edit]

  • Cooking classes are listed here as going into the Learn section. I have always put them in Do, including in a couple of Star articles. Which is correct?
  • Art classes - identical question. Absent here.
  • Yoga, meditation, healing classes (etc). These are absent from the policy article. Learn or Do? Again, I have always put them into Do, but that is arguable.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 05:25, 28 July 2011 (EDT)
Discussion hasn't been really going, but I believe they should go in Learn. See [12]. If they wouldn't go in Learn, then that section would become useless. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 07:34, 28 July 2011 (EDT)
It is hard to distinguish between Yoga courses (for example) which I could see belonging in Learn, from drop-in Yoga sessions which seem to belong in Do. Same goes with diving for example. As Learn is not a section on the Small City or District templates (where these sort of listings most often belong), I have always stuck such things in Do. It is not an easy one.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 09:50, 28 July 2011 (EDT)
Nothing is, but the fact remains that these sorts of classes are what the Learn section is for. Obviously "taking a class" is an activity, but we split instructional activities out into "Learn". Small City and District articles most certainly can have a Learn section; we just don't include it in the basic template for space reasons. (WT-en) LtPowers 15:29, 28 July 2011 (EDT)
So that's two opinions that instructional classes go into Learn. I guess instructional classes of any description? --(WT-en) Burmesedays 20:48, 28 July 2011 (EDT)
Pretty much, though as with everything else, specific cases may require more creative or unusual solutions. When it comes to travel guides, every one is different. If it would improve the travel guide significantly to "break" the rule, then do it. (WT-en) LtPowers 22:26, 28 July 2011 (EDT)

Ski resorts[edit]

Swept in from the pub

What do you all think about Big White and Silver Star? Do they meet our what is an article criteria? (WT-en) LtPowers 16:25, 8 March 2011 (EST)

I think enormous ski resorts qualify as articles (in the same way that Disneyland or, perhaps more germanely, Whistler do.) However I question whether the latter, in particular, is sprawling enough to warrant its own article, just as I wouldn't think that every Six Flags would qualify. It seems to me that it would make sense to combine both into one article. I also think that there's a tout-y tone to both at the moment, but that's a separate issue. (WT-en) Rezendi 01:03, 9 March 2011 (EST)
Well, they certainly don't need to follow a region template, so I removed the giant list of cities and the regional info from Big White. If all those eat listings are actually at the resort and there are sleep listings actually there and not in a nearby town, perhaps it should get an article, but there isn't enough info for me to decide. (WT-en) texugo 01:48, 9 March 2011 (EST)

Tourist office information[edit]

Swept in from the pub:

Should not there be a standard section with information about Tourist offices (e.g. web addresses, physical addresses, opening times, phone numbers) ?

Indeed, I had the same question. Sometime it is at the end of the "Understand" section. Should this become a standard? It could be put in "Cope" too but this section is optional and rather at the end of the page; and Tourist office info is something people probably want to know pretty early. (WT-en) Joelf 16:04, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
I've always seen (and placed) this at the end of "Understand" under the heading "Tourist Information". (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 17:18, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
Huh; I could have sworn we had a standard written down somewhere for that. Anyway, I've added "Visitor information" to Project:Article templates/Sections#Understand. (WT-en) LtPowers 21:22, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
We do-- Where you can stick it indicates the Understand section.(WT-en) texugo 23:56, 13 March 2011 (EDT)

See or do museums[edit]

(Swept in form the pub)

Are museums listed under "See" or "Do"? The London article has a list of museums under "See", but then another one (repeated) under "Do"? I can't find any guidance. --(WT-en) SaxonWarrior 14:38, 15 July 2011 (EDT)

Looking at Project:Article_templates/Sections and Project:Where you can stick it, I think the definition is intentionally vague, because it's not always clear cut. It says "attractions [See] are passive by nature" and "activities [Do] are usually active", but sitting in a stadium watching a sports game is a strange definition of "active".
As a rule of thumb I would normally put museums under "See" unless the museum is exceptionally hands-on. For instance, in Atlanta there's the World of Coca-Cola museum where you can sample dozens of international Coke products, and the Georgia Aquarium where you can touch several sea creatures and kids can play in a massive playpen... to me these could go either way, and I would probably put them in whichever section had less content. --(WT-en) BigPeteB 15:02, 15 July 2011 (EDT)
(Edit conflict) "See" per Project:Where you can stick it#M. There might be exceptions, but I can't think of any at the moment. The museum listing at the London article (Natural History Museum, right?) should definitely be moved to "See" in my opinion, if not one of the district articles. – (WT-en) Vidimian 15:06, 15 July 2011 (EDT)
Thanks guys - that makes sense. --(WT-en) SaxonWarrior 16:42, 15 July 2011 (EDT)
Most museums could go either way, but we chose "See" for lack of a better idea. Even interactive museums go there just for the sake of keeping museums together. Zoos are the same. Sporting events are in "Do" because going to the ballpark conceptually involves more than just sitting and watching; it's more about the experience than the sights. They're all arguable, but we had to pick one or the other. (WT-en) LtPowers 22:12, 15 July 2011 (EDT)

page like a traveller wish list ?[edit]

Swept in from the pub

As a traveller, I found some guesthouses or other services, sometimes lacking complete understanding of what a traveller coud ask: for example, for guesthouse, be cleaned / no bedbugs, have some informations on transport from/to, ... is there such a page on wikivoyage ? 09:04, 24 August 2011 (EDT)

Where to stick money/credit card info?[edit]

Swept in from the pub

In this edit[13] a user quite rightly pointed out that credit card use in the Netherlands increasingly requires a PIN code. I removed it from there, for it was in the wrong place, but now am unsure on where to stick it instead. I'm guessing more travelers are unpleasantly surprised by that PIN-code fact, and I think it should be in the article on The Netherlands. But where? Money exchange info should go in the Buy-section, but it seems way too far down to put general info on currency, credit card use and all that there, since it's relevant from the first minute you arrive. Now that I look at it, we also don't seem to have one of those "costs & money" sections (I think that's how LP calls it, or some other guide) with info on what to expect in terms of daily costs. Is that on purpose? For many years that was one of the first sections I would read in search of travel destinations that would more or less fit my budget. (WT-en) Justme 09:35, 15 August 2011 (EDT)

All banking, money, currency etc information should go into the buy section. If you want to post daily cost/budget info, make a costs sub-section of the buy section. See for example United Kingdom and United States of America (and I am sure lots of other articles). --(WT-en) Burmesedays 09:47, 15 August 2011 (EDT)

More information on how to dress[edit]


I'd be interested in seeing more information on how to dress for a destination. Not in a lot of detail, but enough to know what to expect. There's bits here and there, but I think it should be more widely used, certainly at the country level.

For example, at a country level: a sentence each on dressing for business, for everyday wear, and for "dressing up" to go to nice restaurants or plays. At a state/city level, there could be room for this, too... in the Southern U.S., dress is very casual during the summer because of the heat, while in Washington D.C. people tend to dress nicely even for everyday dress.

Thoughts? --(WT-en) BigPeteB 11:49, 18 August 2011 (EDT)

Definitely agreed. Useful information. I suggest in the Understand section. I think that the only guideline on dress so far, is for warnings about modesty etc which are to be placed in the Respect section. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 12:24, 18 August 2011 (EDT)
I agree strongly that this would be useful. It's one of the hardest bits of information to come by prior to travel—I often find myself crawling through flickr searches for street views—but is quite useful for anyone who doesn't want to stand out as a tourist (presumably everyone?). I guess Cope would be the appropriate section? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 16:37, 18 August 2011 (EDT)
I'll be happy to take a stab at this in a few articles. I notice that several countries don't have a Cope section yet; is it worth adding one just for this? Maybe it should go in another section? --(WT-en) BigPeteB 15:36, 19 August 2011 (EDT)
Cope is usually for services. Understand or Respect would be better, depending on the nature of the advice. (WT-en) LtPowers 16:44, 19 August 2011 (EDT)
I took a first attempt at this at United_States_of_America#Dress. It turned out a little longer than I expected (and it's biased towards men's dress because that's what I know), but I think it covers 98% of all the scenarios travelers would encounter. Let me know what you think! --(WT-en) BigPeteB 18:12, 19 August 2011 (EDT)
I do think it is a bit long; the entire United States article is already too long and contains far too little travel information and too much basic how-to-act information. I think what needs to be said about dress in the U.S. could fit into one or two paragraphs, and belongs properly in the Understand or Respect sections. (WT-en) LtPowers 19:32, 19 August 2011 (EDT)
Alright, I pared it down a lot. I think I like it better shorter, anyway, as part of the adventure of traveling is discovering for yourself what local culture is like, rather than reading about it on a website. --(WT-en) BigPeteB 13:20, 21 August 2011 (EDT)
I don't think understand or respect would be appropriate sections. The point of going over how people dress is about making your trip more comfortable via blending in. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 23:19, 19 August 2011 (EDT)
But we've never used Cope for such things in the past. Ever. It's always been for services. It especially doesn't make sense in locations where we also cover appropriate dress under "Respect" -- then we'd be putting clothing information in two different sections. (WT-en) LtPowers 23:26, 19 August 2011 (EDT)
The respect material has been about not offending local sensibilities, but that's not what BigPeteB is suggesting. Having a dress subsection would allow us to move the information up there.
I don't know where you are getting the "services" bit from. Project:Huge_city_article_template#Cope advises that Cope is for Anything that has to do with the practicalities of daily life should go here. Intuitively, the name of the section would also suggest that this is an appropriate place. Choosing what to wear is pretty clearly one of the practicalities of daily life, and trying to blend in is one of the most basic coping mechanisms for travel in a different place (lest you be hassled endlessly, draw funny looks, or feel silly). --(WT-en) Peter Talk 00:04, 20 August 2011 (EDT)
But likewise it says "Don't put something here when it could fit in one of the other sections." "How Americans dress" is quintessential "Understand" information. (WT-en) LtPowers 09:36, 20 August 2011 (EDT)

I don't think it's a good idea to start enforcing this idea by reversion. After the section was removed, the best thing to do would be to discuss on the talk page whether it should be re-added or not, especially since this is a new proposal that has yet to gain any significant traction. I, for one, continue to be unconvinced that this needs a whole section of its own under "Cope" in a city guide; a single sentence or two under "Understand" should be plenty. In country articles, we might be able to get more verbose, but things just don't vary enough city-to-city to be worth three paragraphs. (WT-en) LtPowers 13:26, 31 August 2011 (EDT)

I'm fine with removing the section in the future, if the general feeling is that it is not helpful. But it is for the time being our test case, so I'm happy to see it draw critiques in the meantime. I will reiterate, though, via rambling, that while many might not care about this sort of information (in the same way I don't care about where I can find shopping malls), for some tourists, blending in while traveling is a priority and a difficult art. All the more difficult owing to the general paucity of destination-specific information online. For most destinations, though, this can certainly be left off. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 18:58, 31 August 2011 (EDT)
I agree that most city articles don't need a Dress section, and those that do probably only need a couple of sentences. (I couldn't care less where it's placed, either.) I just want to convince people that it is important... maybe not for you, but for others. Business travelers, I think, have an obvious need to show up appropriately dressed. European visitors to the U.S. could be quite embarrassed to realize that speedos are uncommon at beaches and pools. As for everyday dress, other than a general desire to not look like an out-of-place tourist begging to get mugged, I can only offer a personal anecdote. I've taken several college choirs on tours where they did "homestays" with local families for lodging, and they were consistently praised for their maturity and responsibility, and it led to many further displays of kindness and hospitality. (And this is from families who regularly host college choirs throughout the year.) I think that dressing to fit in, rather than just lazily putting on shorts and sandals like we wear at home, contributed to this, and I think all travelers ought to have that information available, whether or not they choose to use it. (WT-en) BigPeteB 09:43, 6 September 2011 (EDT)

Theatrical and concert venues[edit]

Theatre, opera and live performance are currently listed as activities to "do". I realise this point has been raised years ago (#Theatres and Performance Acts) but normally you see a show, you don't climb up on stage and "do" anything to make a spectacle of yourself (I hope!). I've been listing these as "see" insofar as the audience are passive spectators to these events. I'd also list comedy clubs as "see" and not "drink" if they are primarily stage venues. K7L (talk) 01:19, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree with a move. AHeneen (talk) 07:41, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
As a performer, I agree with K7L, in a literal sense. However, I think people consider going to performances (or for that matter, movies) an activity, in a way they don't think about going to museums or art shows, because performances have a specific start and end time on a given day, whereas you can simply go to a museum for a couple of hours during a day when it's open from 10-6 (or whatever). Moreover, in the specific case of bars that feature jazz, rock, or comedy performances, it is certainly true that you may well be there primarily for the music or the comedy, but there is some likelihood that you are there to have the experience of drinking while listening, and the performances are taking place in bars, so it doesn't seem improper to put these kinds of clubs in separate sections of "Drink." The upshot is that while I'm not opposed to K7L's viewpoint, it is not the only one, and I'm also concerned lest a lot of time be unnecessarily spent moving lots of entries from one section to another. Do you think that is an important use of our time? Let's just say that if this proposal is accepted, I would not want to prioritize moving existing entries. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:29, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Museums do sometimes offer guided tours at fixed times, yet these remain things to "see" and not activities. (An exception may apply to specific educational programming where kids learn art or craft - activities - as a class in a museum or library building.) I see we have a fair amount of cinema, professional athletic, theatrical or musical performance already in "see" and am not proposing to go through large numbers of existing articles to re-classify listings. If existing usage accepts a spectator viewing performances as things to "see", the project pages should reflect this. I realise there are always grey areas and overlap - the British-style pub or "bar and grill" as restaurant, the hunting/fishing outfitter who also rents cabins or a hotel on a golf course with a restaurant, bar and marina. The question of where to put the comedy club may depend on whether the business appears to make most of its revenue on admission to shows, or on selling food or drink. We've traditionally allowed editors some flexibility in deciding where to list, just so long as a venue only appears once. I'd put "NHL Gardens. Passively watch squabbling, over-privileged owners and players show up for only half the regular season" as "see" while "City Memorial Arena. Skate rental, equipment, go out on the ice and get in shape" is an activity to "do". K7L (talk) 17:27, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Let's please not change this. Moving current information to a new home would require reconfiguring every well written article on the site, changing Wikivoyage:Attraction listings and Wikivoyage:Activity listings, and generally muddying up where to find information. For what benefit? You could argue performance art belongs in either "see" or "do," but the main thing is consistency, and our "do" section has traditionally been used for sports events and performance venues outside of bars. --Peter Talk 18:34, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
I agree with Peter. As a side note, I would think that nearly every venue that serves drinks probably makes at least as much money from drinks as from tickets or cover charges, if not more. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:25, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Potential rename[edit]

First, I hate to bring this up as this guideline's title harks back to a much snarkier time in the project's history. That said, the title has a fairly negative double meaning (see #Where the sun don't shine) and I've been worried that I'm scaring off a new user when I add a message to their talk page saying "Thanks for your contributions, but please see where you can stick it". I'm struggling to come up with a title that contains a similar amount of snark, but can be referenced on a user's talk page without potentially making them think I'm telling them they should shove it up their... you know. Any thoughts? I know that this policy title name is a popular one, so I'm hopeful that there's a suggestion for something similarly humorous without the negative connotations. Anyone? -- Ryan • (talk) • 00:16, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Well when you put it that way... LtPowers (talk) 15:48, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure it was meant to be snarky. Evan said (at the top of this page) at the time, "The title is purposefully bad, because I couldn't think of a better one. Suggestions more than welcome (or just plunge forward and move the article)." On the MOS main page it was changed a few weeks ago to "Where you can put it". Shorter to type is "Where to put it". No humour in these, though. Nurg (talk) 04:37, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Some possibilities:
  1. Where to put it
  2. Where you can put it
  3. Choosing a section
  4. Everything in its place
Anyone others? I kind of like #4, which is mildly snarky (see w:Everything in Its Place) but still pretty clear as to what the policy is for. -- Ryan • (talk) • 23:46, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
How about "Where you should put it"...this sounds kinder/less authoritative to new users, but on the other hand, "should" makes it seem like this policy isn't set in stone. If concerned about sounding too snarky...just use a shortcut and cover the link with something "Thanks for your contributions. We have a style manual that [[wycsi|specifies sections where listings should be placed]]. I've moved the listings to the right places." AHeneen (talk) 00:45, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
"Should" is more proscriptive than "can". LtPowers (talk) 18:35, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Chambers of Commerce[edit]

In the U.S. they sometimes coordinate visitor information services or run the regional tourism bureaus. Not sure if this reflects a worldwide view, though (Wikipedia). Chambers of Commerce are listed in a couple tourism brochures/magazines I've picked up, listed under titles like "Other services" or "Visitor services". My best guess is "Cope", unless there is no local tourism promotion agency (tourism/visitor/convention bureau) and the chamber provides tourism information, in which case it may be listed under "Understand#Visitor information". Sound reasonable? AHeneen (talk) 04:23, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

If there is a visitor bureau, I'm not clear on what services the chamber of commerce would offer a traveler. LtPowers (talk) 01:02, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Adding a Hookah Bar to a city's Food section?[edit]

Swept in from the pub

The city I live in has a Hookah Bar, which I understand to not be a terribly common thing. Is including that within the Food section within the scope of the project? It is the only Hookah Bar in town. Zellfaze (talk) 04:03, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Bars and nightlife usually go into "drink", as the "eat" section is for food and restaurants. K7L (talk) 04:07, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
I don't know the answer to that (it is not listed at wtsi). Do they serve any food/alcohol? We stick bars and comedy clubs in the "Drink" section and if the hookah bar serves any alcohol, that would be the place for it. I don't think a "smoke" section with one listing would be necessary. AHeneen (talk) 04:09, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
Even if they don't serve alcohol, they should go in Drink. It's a problematic heading, but it covers "non-eatery places where you go hang out and talk while paying the owner." --Peter Talk 05:04, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
I was wondering this myself, actually. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 05:21, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
They serve both food and drink. Most people come, smoke a bowl or two, eat some food, have a drink and leave. I love their hummus and pita bread. They have alright Pizza too. Thursdays are 50 cent beer night. I'll go ahead and add it to the Drinks section. If later on it becomes an issue, I'm sure that it will be taken care of (Plunging Forward/Being Bold and all that). Zellfaze (talk) 23:31, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
Turns out that Hookah Bar is within scope and listed on Wikivoyage:Where_you_can_stick_it#H. Fantastic. Thank you for your help guys. Zellfaze (talk) 00:24, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
IMO, the "Drink" section should be renamed "Nightlife" to take focus off alcohol. /Yvwv (talk) 03:33, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
It's also for daytime coffeehouses and cafés. Globe-trotter (talk) 05:18, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
I agree entirely. Drink is such a limiting name. - Cardboardbird (talk) 05:21, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
"Drink" was used to match the pattern of using short imperatives as section names (see, do, buy, eat, sleep). It looks even more awkward on fr: where it was translated as "Sortir/Boire une verre" ("Go out/Drink a glass"). I've also noticed that in the smallest villages "Eat/Drink" should be a single section as the only places selling drink also sell food ("licenced restaurant", "bar and grill", "English pub" and the like). Then there's the Starbucks-like cafés which don't serve full meals. Drink? K7L (talk) 06:11, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
We do sometimes combine the two sections—here's a star that does. I think the various stuff we put in there does go together. I'll hang out and chat/socialize after dining out at a bar, a club, a lounge, a cigar bar, a hookah bar, a coffeeshop, a teahouse, etc. They all serve that function. --Peter Talk 06:27, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps we can think about this section heading after the current Connect one. Meanwhile, I think Peter's description of what the Drink section means is about the best I've seen. --Inas (talk) 04:06, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

'Cope' section[edit]

Swept in from the pub

I see one problem with moving "stay safe", "stay healthy", "stay connected" or anything else to be subsections of "Cope"... the only one of the blank outline templates to include "Cope" is {{bigcity}}. It simply doesn't exist in the blank {{country}}, {{region}}, {{smallcity}}, {{hugecity}} or {{district}} outlines. (I haven't checked to see whether this matches the documentation for each of these page types). K7L (talk) 23:46, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Cope is sometimes where religious services are listed, such as in places where there are not many members of a religion or denomination. We can discuss whether such listings are very helpful to travelers or not (I think they can be), but they certainly wouldn't fit in any of the other sections you mention. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
What the heck is Cope supposed to be in the first place? --XndrK (talk) 22:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Wikivoyage:Where you can stick it#Cope. --Peter Talk 23:11, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Cope doesn't work so well in big cities with well developed tourist facilities, where all of the things you'd expect to see there exist multiple times over and are relatively easy to find. And we're not really a directory service. --Inas (talk) 00:10, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Wikivoyage:Huge city article template indicates "Cope" is a valid section, even though it is missing from {{hugecity}}. It's useful for lists of consulates, high commissions and other embassy-like entities (such as Taiwan Economic & Cultural Offices). K7L (talk) 00:43, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
I would strongly oppose the deprecation of "Cope". I'm in the process of districting Buffalo, and as can be seen from the two district articles I've completed so far (#1 and #2), both of them make heavy use of the "Cope" section for information on hospitals, places of worship, district-specific print media, and other necessities. If this section were eliminated, I would, frankly, be hard-pressed either to find another appropriate section for most of this information or to justify omitting it. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:23, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Any reason for pushing consulates into district articles? They usually serve the whole city or region, not just the one district in which they are located. Also, Buffalo aren't 'districted' they're 'herded'. :) K7L (talk) 18:12, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
At the moment the small city article template is our most heavily used template and it includes a "Contact" section, which is supposed to contain listings for staying in touch (phone, internet, postal). "Cope" is supposed to be the dumping ground for travel-relevant listings that don't fit into other headings, and tends to be where everything from embassies to laundromats to religious services end up; adding internet cafes and post offices to that section wouldn't be much of a stretch. It has always struck me as odd that "Contact" became a separate, and standard, heading when we live in a world where phone and internet services are fairly common in all but the most remote villages.
In the cases where a town is small enough to warrant having individual listings in a "Contact" section then it would probably also warrant a "Cope" section. IMHO, combining the two in such a case helps keep the article more focused while still presenting a traveler with needed information. To the argument that this section could become a yellow pages listing, if we apply a similar rule to this section as we do with car rental agencies (if a business type is common, don't add individual listings) it would help keep this manageable.
To be clear, I'm not strongly married to the idea of having one combined section, but I think it would be a good way to capture information that is sometimes under-represented ("Cope") while de-emphasizing a section that isn't as important as it was back in 2007 ("Contact"). -- Ryan • (talk) • 04:38, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Spot on! -- Alice 05:12, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
The reason "Cope" is underrepresented is because it's unimportant information. It's basically a category to stack a lot of unrelated things, like laundromats, religious services and local newspapers. I don't think it needs to be emphasized. Globe-trotter (talk) 18:10, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Just because "Cope" is something of a catch-all category does not mean that the information is unimportant. Travelers who are religious, and there are a lot of them, will obviously want to know where they can find a religious service of their denomination. Travelers who want to avail themselves of local news or event listings, and there are a lot of them, will obviously want to know the name of the local paper and the URL of their website. Travelers who prefer clean clothes to dirty clothes, and that covers virtually everyone, will obviously want to know where they can do their laundry. If the result is that the "Cope" section ends up looking like a directory, so be it. I don't see the harm in that; the paramount question ought to be whether the information is useful to the traveler, and I think it's safe to say that it is.
When in doubt, I think it would behoove Wikivoyage editors to err in favor of including information, rather than withholding it. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:29, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Well said! (Especially now that the "Book Creator" option in the left hand panel offers the ability to select or de-select individual sections of articles...) -- Alice 07:38, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Sure, some people do laundry and visit religious services while traveling, but it's not crucial for a travel guide. Not at all even. It's daily life fluff that could easily be left out. To add Contact to Cope wouldn't make sense, because then every article on Wikivoyage would need a "Cope" section, and a lot of relatively unimportant information would be added to the articles. Globe-trotter (talk) 15:51, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Wikivoyage is not a telephone directory. K7L (talk) 16:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
If someone could direct me to the specific, written policy stating that Wikivoyage is to avoid looking like a telephone directory at all costs, I'd be grateful. Certainly Non-goal #7 applies in many cases, but where it comes into conflict with Wikivoyage:The traveller comes first I think the latter policy ought to take precedence (if the traveller "comes first", that means he comes before our other policies). The nature of travel guides is that they bear a certain degree of similarity to telephone directories. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:15, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
The reason consulates should be placed in city pages, instead of regional pages, is that the regions they serve do not match up with Wikivoyage regions. So either 1)we'd need to list which consulates serve each region (state/province level) or 2)just list the consulate in the region (state/province level) it's located in. Even then, a state/province might be served by multiple consulates for a particular nation. Listing consulates in a city article seems like the easiest option. Doing anything other than to not list consulates at all would necessitate the creation of a policy (with a few different criteria) to determine where a consulate should be listed. AHeneen (talk) 20:35, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
City pages I can live with... but the proposal was to push a consulate into an individual district Buffalo/Downtown#Consulates. That's overcategorisation. K7L (talk) 23:30, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Everyone agrees with placing them in the City article I think. Globe-trotter (talk) 15:51, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
I quickly placed the information regarding the German consulate into Buffalo/Downtown based on a misreading of User:K7L's comments dated 29 January, 00:43 and 18:12. I agree with the overcategorization remark and will revert that edit now. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:30, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Cope sections do need to end up as Directory listings. We just need to focus on what would be useful for travellers. Some cities still have laundry services on every other corner, but in some it is actually not easy to find one (just realized I forgot add the Amman one). Some places have lots of gyms, but only one or two where you can get a daypass or pay for just a few days. They might be trying to sell you GSM cards but which ones give you affordable internet? Elgaard (talk) 13:28, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
I think the goal should ultimately be to have information like laundromats or hair salons contained at Wikidata as part of a comprehensive listings database. That way, we wouldn't have to overload our travel guides, but the information would just be a click away for readers. They could click for example a link for Catholic churches within a certain radius, auto-plot them on an OSM map, etc. --Peter Talk 17:55, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Using my work on the upcoming Buffalo district articles as an example, whenever possible, I try to add a few interesting factoids about each listing in the Cope section in order to jazz up the prose and make it look less directory-like, and at the same time, provide readers with some interesting background information that, I think, adds a lot to an article. I wonder if a site like Wikidata (I'm not familiar) might not be set up to incorporate that sort of thing. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:21, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

How to deal with diseases?[edit]

Swept in from the pub

Is there an example of how we'd like health risks like malaria etc. explained in country articles? Peru#Stay_healthy addresses each disease separately, while e.g. Brazil#Stay_healthy is just a short overview. Is there an agreed upon preference, or is it just a case to case thing? JuliasTravels (talk) 00:09, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

We also have Tropical diseases and a number of articles on specific diseases, including malaria. It seems worth asking where we should be drawing a line. What should be covered in a travel guide, versus what should be left to encyclopedias or government-run health advice sites? Pashley (talk) 01:48, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
I would expect basic information about something like malaria on Wikivoyage, but I imaging in every particular articles, the explanation should be short, with a link to more info. That would however mean that it's not there when printed. I'm not sure how much of a problem that is. JuliasTravels (talk) 10:02, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
The really useful stuff to have for individual country stay healthy sections deals with particulars of treatment, geographic spread of infection, and language. So for malaria: Where can you expect high-standards of treatment for malaria and about how much would it cost? What parts of the country are malaria-free? How do you ask for x number of pills of doxycycline at 100mg in the local language? For that matter, what is the local term for pharmacy? (I didn't think to ask for an "apothecary" in rural Ghana.) You could go through those first three questions for each important infectious disease in the country, and it would all be helpful, and not duplicate what's at Tropical diseases. --Peter Talk 22:29, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
What I am interested is for Health Tourism and mental health abroad. For example travelers with Asperger's syndrome and Schizophrenia. My Aborted attempt at the Southmead travel guide should be seen as a specimen for wikidoctors. Normsdale (talk) 16:22, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


Where to stick recreation purpose farmhouses? --Saqib (talk) 11:00, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, you might need to elaborate. I'm a city-slicker so may not understand. If you visit the farmhouse for scones, tea and coffee, then Eat. If you go and pat the lambs and ride a horse, then Do. If you go and look at the animals, look at the old homestead and the various tractors/tools, then See. Do you have a link to the actual farmhouse you speak of? :) JamesA >talk 11:05, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
And if it's an agritourism location where you stay, it can go in "Sleep"! Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:56, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
You'll have to visit few links provided here to get a better understanding of farmhouses I'm talking about. --Saqib (talk) 12:40, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
I looked at Al-Jannat [14], Shangrila [15], and Al-Syed [16]. They look like combination park/theme park/resorts. My feeling would be, if more people go to these places as day trips than stay overnight, put the listings in "Do," and if more people stay overnight than do day trips, put them in "Sleep." It might be necessary to make a case-by-case judgment on each farmhouse. Or to make things simple, just put them all in "Do" or "Sleep," according to your best judgment in general.Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:03, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
They look like resorts (that is, accommodations) to me; they're not much of an attraction are they? LtPowers (talk) 22:32, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
They offer facilities for both day time visitors and night stayers. --Saqib (talk) 09:21, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Can you be more specific? Throughout this conversation, you seem to have gone out of your way to be as vague as possible. LtPowers (talk) 18:39, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Clothing stores?[edit]

Swept in from the pub

Would adding a section or three to a Buy section of a city for just clothing stores be acceptable? L. Challenger (talk) 22:17, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

In a longer "Buy" section with various subsections, one or more subsections on clothing stores is perfectly fine. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:16, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
In cities noted for their haute couture trends then the guides deserves sections about their more notable clothing ranges and the best stores for them to buy them. Normsdale (talk) 08:41, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
Well, what sort of clothing stores? I'm not entirely sure that adding all the national chains would be too beneficial. --Rschen7754 09:45, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
Very few of the clothing stores on the lists in the city I've been working on are national chains - there are neighborhoods full of them. L. Challenger (talk) 16:34, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
The key point to consider is whether the stores are of particular interest to travelers. If there is an entire neighborhood full of clothing stores then a general section about that neighborhood might be more useful than a long list of stores. If there are a handful of truly unique stores that would interest travelers, then listing those stores probably makes sense. See Culver City#Buy for a similar, although relatively poorly written, example of how the myriad art galleries and furniture stores in Culver City were handled. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:56, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
One example (not ideal) where we already have such a section is Shanghai#Clothing. Pashley (talk) 16:39, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
An example from a star article with a lot of buy listings is at Washington, D.C./Georgetown#Buy. Georgetown is a big time shopping destination. I noted which major chains are where, since most tourist shoppers are looking for some of them, but only created listings for very small chains, local stores, and one for the Urban Outfitters just because it is a landmark. --Peter Talk 19:28, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback everyone - I added a listing for clothing that branched into Womens and Mens. How did I do? [17] L. Challenger (talk) 17:26, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I think that looks great, and will be especially great with descriptions ;) --Peter Talk 18:02, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

To "Buy" or to "Eat", that is the question...[edit]

Swept in from the pub

Parkside Candy is a chocolate and candy shop that's very famous in Buffalo. It also has a small counter where ice cream, coffee etc. are served. However, by far the primary business there is retail sales - I doubt whether many Buffalonians even know about the eat-in option. Does this belong in "buy" or "eat"? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:55, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Buy. LtPowers (talk) 18:36, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
I agree with LtPowers. If it's overwhelmingly a place to buy these things to take out, I think it should go in "Buy." If you put it in "Eat," I wouldn't move it, however. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:41, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
That settles it, then. Thanks. I haven't added it yet but when I do, it will be under "buy". -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:45, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

format change[edit]

I strongly disagree with the recent change to format this page as a table. I do not find it easier to read and much prefer the prior format. LtPowers (talk) 22:38, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Really?? I thought it would be a no-brainer that keeping the wordwrapped text off the left margin makes it easier to scan through the entries. Other than that there is essentially no change except for the cell divider lines. What do others think? Texugo (talk) 23:16, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
I like the cells. I agree; I find the table easier to read. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:31, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
Under the old format only one entry (suburb) is long enough to wrap for me. But the presence of the bullets mitigates any issues I would have if I shrunk the window down anyway; that's the whole point of bullets, after all. Tables are for when different pieces of data need to align; I don't see any reason for anyone to be skimming down the second column. It's the exact same theory behind our one-liner listings, which the entries on this page used to strongly resemble. I think the same reasoning applies to both. LtPowers (talk) 01:52, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
Would anyone care to refute my argument against the table format? LtPowers (talk) 20:31, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
I have mixed feelings about this change. I do prefer the table style visually - it also provides a quick clue as to where the first section ends.
However, WikiTables are challenging for a lot of newbies to edit and for this reason alone I think there needs to be a good reason to use them. In this case, since it's probably only going to be experienced editors making additions or amendments here, I think the table format just clears that test. --118.93nzp (talk) 21:09, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Agriculture - where you can stick it?[edit]

Swept in from the pub

In Wikivoyage:Where you can stick it there appear to be no entries for agricotourism. Is picking your own apples/strawberries/blueberries an activity ("do"), a marketplace ("buy") or food ("eat")?

It looks like we're missing these:

  • Barn dance, square dancing - "Do"
  • County fair - "Do"
  • Farm - "Buy" if the farm primarily sells produce, antiquities or souvenirs to travellers; "do" for tours, horse or wagon rides, corn mazes, haunted houses, "sleep" for rural B&B-style accommodations, "eat" if food is served for immediate consumption on-site
  • Farmers' market - "Buy"
  • Horse riding or lessons - "Do"
  • Maple cabin/sugar shack/érablière - "Eat"
  • Orchard - "Buy" if produce already picked and packaged for takeaway, possibly "do" for pick-your-own or "eat" if food consumed on-site
  • Outfitter - "Do" (hunting/fishing as activity), possibly "Sleep" if cabins and campsites are offered or "Buy" if selling equipment
  • Petting zoo, hobby farm - "See"
  • Wagon ride, Hay wagon, farm tour - "Do" section
  • Vineyard, Wineries - "Drink" if wine served on-premise, otherwise "buy" (wine sold for takeaway) or "do" (winery tour)

with all of these at city-level for the nearest village which has an article.

Do these look reasonable? I'm trying to place a "pick your own blueberries" in Nantes (Lac-Mégantic) somewhere but there's no wcysi for this. K7L (talk) 17:25, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Those look reasonable to me, although I don't recognize the term "maple cabin", and I don't think a farm would ever be an "Eat" entry - if the farm has a restaurant or similar business on its property then it would be more common to create a listing for that business than for the farm itself. -- Ryan • (talk) • 17:31, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Is this reasonable to add:

  • Pioneer village - "Do" (historical theme park as living, open museum for walking tour)

The w:Pioneer village format is an "open" museum in which a large group of historic buildings has been relocated and restored to 1800s operation, complete with the various trades (agriculture, blacksmithery, manufacture of clothing and household items) being carried out as they were historically. Effectively a museum ("see") on the scale of a theme park ("do") and focussed on one region in one historical era, so it falls between two existing wycsi classifications. K7L (talk) 18:42, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I think I'd put it in "See" (without the Wikipedia link). It seems more of a thing to see than do, to me.
I'd put a petting zoo in "Do," because it's about petting the animals, not just seeing them. I'm not sure what a hobby farm is. What is it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:58, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
These can be difficult, because there can be so many reasons at once to visit one farm. Trader's Point Creamery is listed in do section of Indianapolis, which I guess makes sense, but I only ever went there for the restaurant, which is absolutely fabulous. It's hard to handle that without a double listing, (especially in such a long article). --19:12, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
Petting zoos should be in See with the other zoos; pick-your-own-produce farms should be in Buy with the other farm markets. While I understand the activity-related aspects of each of these, it's more important to my mind to group like with like. LtPowers (talk) 19:26, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
I guess the concept I'm looking for is a farm where one can see, visit or feed the animals.
It looks like agritourism just generates more "see also" topics which need to be put somewhere:
  • Agricultural show
  • Rodeo (event)
  • State fair
I presume these are events and therefore "Do"? K7L (talk) 19:28, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
Yes, Do. Rodeo is already on the wycsi list, actually. Texugo (talk) 19:49, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
The article on agricultural show pretty much says it's the same as a state or county fair, even though these are separate articles as travel topics. K7L (talk) 20:16, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
Re: Ryan's comment, as someone with a good deal of expertise on the region in question, I can provide some enlightenment on the subject of maple cabins. They're a very popular seasonal ritual in Québec, and to a lesser extent in anglophone Eastern Canada and northern New England. At the very beginning of the spring thaw (Feb-Mar), people go up to the sugar shacks (cabanes à sucre) to draw the sap out of the maple trees and boil it into syrup, with lots of merrymaking during and after the harvest including games, a big communal dinner where regional fare can be had - taffy made by partially freezing maple syrup on snow (tir à neige) is obviously a favorite. At any rate, maple cabins very obviously fall under "Do". -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:51, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I've added the agrotourism entries, but have a couple of other questions:

  • duty-free store

We currently have this as part of airports but not freestanding (at the border). Should the duty-free at the international bridge be Buy?

  • event, fair, festival, rodeo

We currently have these as Do, but there are many of these that run briefly for a weekend or a week in each town. A subsection Do - Events may be justified if these are numerous locally. K7L (talk) 04:58, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

That is basically standard practice to put them in an Events subsection. Texugo (talk) 17:30, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

You could view my user page for an idea with crowdfunding. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 10:37, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Shopping arcades[edit]

How about an arcade/laneway lined with specialist shops? These are prominent in Melbourne/City_Centre, and I also visited a few in London as well when I was there. See this for what I'm on about. On one hand, they are tourist attractions in their own right with historical significance and good photo opportunities (so, See). But on the other, they are retail precincts where tourists go to shop (Buy). Thoughts? James Atalk 12:50, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

I'd say these generally should go in the Buy section unless the historical/sightseeing aspect is really overwhelming. As you are actually talking about an area rather than a specific listing, I don't see a big problem with mentioning it in more than one section either, if appropriate, though preferably not with both in identical listing format. For example, if it is already listed in See, you could mention it in the prose intro to the Buy section, and then highlight certain shops with Buy listings.Texugo (talk) 12:55, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
[2 edit conflicts] I think this calls for a judgment on what their primary purpose is likely to be for a visitor. The Galleria in Naples would be an attraction I'd sooner put in "See" than "Buy," but I might be wrong because I haven't been to Naples since 1998 and things could have changed sufficient to flip that judgment. I think when in doubt, put it in "Buy" and include a photo of it so that readers can see some of its interest as a sight. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:58, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick input, guys. I think in this case, I'm leaning towards Buy, but will definitely put a mention into See with a link. I'll give them their own section seeing as there's so many. And should it be added to this page for future reference? James Atalk 13:10, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Worship listings[edit]

Swept in from the pub

Would it be appropriate to add information on worship and religious services to city pages? If so, what section would it go under? Edge3 (talk) 22:49, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

New Zealand is probably one of the least religious countries on earth, but even here there are lots of travellers that would find this useful - especially for non-majority sect/religion meetings where the local in the street might not know too much. --118.93nzp (talk) 22:54, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
I have seen it a few times under 'cope' (e.g. Jinju). I believe it is appropriate as long as it traveler specific, with listing regular services that a traveler may attend but not going as far as long term activities such as bible study groups. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:04, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
Buffalo's district articles (my work) have them listed under "Cope". -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:11, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
The Buffalo listings look like a good description for the many different faith options.
Is there actually formal guidance for religious listings? For example, would it be acceptable for someone to list Scientology churches? And how large should such a section be allowed to be without overwhelming the host article? Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:22, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
I'd say this is probably worth looking into. --Rschen7754 23:54, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
See Wikivoyage:Where you can stick it. "Cope" is for listing religious services, "See" is for religious structures of historic interest. Just as we would with any other listing type (hairdresser, post office, etc), if the list of religious services in "Cope" gets too long then we usually trim it, and anything that strays into proselytizing is usually removed per Wikivoyage:Don't tout. -- Ryan • (talk) • 23:59, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
And our kinda general rule, is that if there are so many of something in a city, that a traveller isn't going to have any problem seeking them out, we don't try and be a yellow pages. A church that has many travellers visiting it, or that gives services in English may be worthwhile mentioning in that case. --Inas (talk) 00:10, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Can I place a cathedral under both the "Cope" and "See" section if many travelers visit it for both religious and historical purposes? Edge3 (talk) 00:20, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
You can't list it twice. If it really is worth seeing for people not of that particular religious persuasion, then list it under See, including the fact that you can attend services there. If you still think it is worthwhile mentioning it under Cope, then you can add it to the prose in that section. However, in most of these case, I think a listing under See will be sufficient. --Inas (talk) 00:35, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
I think this bears repeating. Churches are not hard to locate with a quick online search, in my experience. If there are a lot to choose from, they are probably easy to find, and if there's only one, then you don't have a choice assuming you find it in the first place. But I think it's far more useful to have good listings for the rest of the page, since most travelers eat 2-3 times a day, sleep every night, and want things to do during the day, but only go to church once a week, or on vacation often not at all. Looking at the aforementioned Buffalo example, I see that Buffalo/North Buffalo lists a whopping 18 houses of worship with lengthy descriptions, but 30 Drink listings have no description whatsoever. There's a happy median somewherel, but that's too far in the opposite direction for my liking. --Bigpeteb (talk) 15:00, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
A relevant discussion can be found here. For what it's worth, I agree with Bigpeteb. And aside from being once a week and being something that many don't do on vacation anyway, people who will go to church on vacation most likely have a strong preference for a particular denomination, and even most small cities have multiple congregations of multiple denominations. (The number of churches to be found in medium and large cities gets absurdly high). Taking all that together, this means that the likelihood of usefulness for any given worship listing is extremely low, and I would personally rather we not list them at all unless we are listing places that have service in English in a country where this is unusual. For anything else, it's easy enough to pick up a phone book. Texugo (talk) 15:10, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree with the two Andrews, Ryan and Inas. --118.93nzp (talk) 00:41, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

  • I generally agree with Tex. There's not really a need to enumerate anything but a handful of significant churches (i.e. the cathedral and the structures that carry a historic designation), even for a large city. Purplebackpack89 17:29, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
And, I might add, if they are historic, they actually belong in See, not Cope. Texugo (talk) 17:56, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
I disagree. I am not a religious person and hardly ever visit churches or places of worship when I travel, but I can appreciate the needs of a religious person. A service in a non-popular religion at a destination, or a service in a foreign language can be very important to such travellers. I do not think we should list ALL places of worship, and those qualifying as landmarks should go to "See", but I agree information on otherwise hard-to-find religious services should go into "cope". PrinceGloria (talk) 19:53, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
I disagree with Purplebackpack89 and agree with PrinceGloria. There are a significant number of travellers who are religious and who will want to attend religious services while out of town. It is the job of a good travel guide to direct them where they need to go—it's really not any more complicated than that, IMO.
I think this is the perfect example why Wikivoyage needs to move away from vigilantly emphasizing that we're "not the Yellow Pages". Certainly there's a large number of things that could hypothetically be listed that will never be part of Wikivoyage's scope, but we should also keep in mind that just because a person is travelling doesn't mean all their day-to-day necessities - clean clothes, religious services, etc. - can simply be put on hold. And I don't see how forcing people to refer to a different source for that information like the phone directory can be reconciled with our goal that each of our articles should be the one and only source a reader needs for travel to that destination. (See the guidelines for Guide article status, where "not only would you not need to consult another guide, you'd really have no reason to want to: it's all here" is presumably part of what makes Guides better than Outlines and Usables).
Not to be vain, but again, I invite folks to look at the Buffalo district articles for a model as to how this could be done. In my writing, most of the congregations in any given district are listed (if Buffalo were a much larger city like Manhattan, I can see how listing them all might be a problem, but the fact remains that we need not limit ourselves to the two or three largest). As a counterbalance, our desire to avoid dry, boring lists of addresses and phone numbers is addressed by including lots of background information on each one, which also does the double duty of helping to further familiarize the reader with the history and character of the place s/he is visiting.
-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:17, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
But, Andre, what goes and what stays? It's not uncommon for an American city of 100,000 like my hometown to have 40 congregations, and what if you're dealing with something significantly bigger, like the City of Homes and Churches? Furthermore, Prince's criteria seems to privilege the hard-to-find and uncommon at the expense of the larger, more prevalent congregations. Consider something in the South or the Heartland of the United States. In those places, foreign-language services (even in Spanish) are uncommon, as are any religious institutions that aren't Catholic, Baptist or mainline Christian. By Pride's criteria, we'd have the uncommon and leave off the common. I'm not sure I can abide by that, and this is speaking as someone who just wrote an article on a potential pilgrimage. Purplebackpack89 21:11, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure any change from existing practice is needed - if you want to add a church that isn't a "See" entry, put it in "Cope" per Wikivoyage:Where you can stick it. If there are only a handful of churches in a town, or if the article only lists a handful, then we have no problem. If the list gets long, just as we would with any other long list we can assume that churches are fairly common and replace the individual listings with a paragraph stating that you can find a church on every corner - we already do this with fast food chains, car rental agencies, and other businesses that are easy to find in a location. Do we need to make this rule explicit in Wikivoyage:Avoid long lists? -- Ryan • (talk) • 21:23, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Another way of dealing with a long list is to limit the list to nine or fewer of the more prominent places of worship. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:46, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
For the record - I find the lists of places of worship in Buffalo articles obviously too long, and the long description of each and every one suprefluous. This is not "know you parish wiki", this is a travel wiki. Why don't we list all dry cleanings, pharmacies and, for that matter, grocery stores for every location we write about and give them a background description? Seriously, I believe we should treat places of worship like we do embassies - give them a one-liner each. And while an embassy needs no further explanation, the "place of worship" entry could contain a very brief description of services (rite, times, language, peculiarities if important to potential attendee). I believe there is no point in listing catholic churches offering services in Polish when describing a location in Poland - this will be something somebody will easily find without the help of a tour guide, and I believe we're not here to recommend one parish over another. What will be of interest and great assistance is the one active synagogue or mosque in town, especially if it is not a landmark, or the one catholic church that offers this one mass in English at 5 PM every Sunday. Yup, uncommon over common, but then, travel guides are to point out the uncommon, unusual, interesting, outstanding and hard-to-find. This is the difference between travel guides and yellow pages. PrinceGloria (talk) 06:14, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
I just reread the "Cope" section of Buffalo, and I would respectfully disagree with your reaction to it. It strikes me as a relatively brief roundup of highlights of houses of worship in and near the city, with addresses but without full entries, and it folds in some other aspects of tourist interest (architectural beauty, landmark status, historical importance) into the descriptions. I think that kind of roundup would probably be fine in any detailed article in which the major houses of worship weren't either blindingly obvious to any visitor or/and already covered elsewhere in the article. For a counterexample, in Florence, the most important Catholic churches are major tourist attractions, so it wouldn't make sense to cover them in "Cope," and since a link to their websites is given, anyone interested in going there for Mass can check without trouble. However, information about services in the synagogue and Islamic centre would be welcome, if someone wants to add them. So that's pretty similar to the remarks you're making about Polish cities. But chances are, there will be some church that's noteworthy as a tourist attraction in most Polish towns and cities, anyway, wouldn't there? And in that case, we'd providing a link to their website (if any) in their "See" entry.
I guess part of my thinking is that it isn't essential for every place to be treated the same way, or for every article to have exactly the same structure. Sure, there are required sections, but there are also optional sections which can be used or not used, depending on how useful someone thinks they are. We do have laundromats sometimes listed in "Cope," when they're not so easy to find, but in a neighborhood like Manhattan/East Village, listing laundromats would be ridiculous, as you can find one every 2-3 blocks. I think Brooklyn would be roughly analogous in terms of churches and synagogues: No need to list them except if one is a tourist attraction, as there are hundreds of them. Buffalo may be different, though, and the section is in any case well written and provides information that can be useful, so I wouldn't want for it to be deleted. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:46, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
I respectfully disagree about the Buffalo district articles, PrinceGloria - and in a broader sense, I find Wikivoyage's emphasis on brevity, e.g. the criticisms on this thread of long lists and lengthy descriptions as well as in countless other discussions I've seen here over time, to be something else that conflicts with our stance that really good articles should be the definitive travel guide a reader would need for the destination in question. Either we want to be the one and only source of information and include lots of information, or we want to include only the most important stuff and be satisfied with users supplementing us with other guides - we can't have it both ways. This is why Texugo's dismissal that "it's easy enough to pick up a phone book" to find out about religious services is so nonsensical to me.
Also, your description of my approach as "know your parish wiki, [not] a travel wiki" is erroneous. If you actually read the descriptions, you'll see that they deal in the history and identity of the destination as filtered through the story of the congregation itself. Speaking for myself, when I read a travel guide I want much more than a list of tourist attractions, restaurants, bars and hotels. I want to know the destination's story - when and why it was founded, what it's all about today and what things shaped its identity along the way. What kind of people I'll meet, what kinds of impressions I'll get. My lengthy background blurbs are bits and pieces of that information that, I hope, add up to a nice, vibrant picture of what Buffalo is and why. I don't think it's at all controversial to take that approach in one's writing on this site. On the contrary, Wikivoyage:Tone says that rather than featuring "bland and encyclopedic" writing, "Wikivoyage should celebrate travel, and [writers] should feel free to share the adventure and excitement of the journey and the destination through [their] writing", and I think it would be nearly impossible to accomplish that with dry listings of "a one-liner each", as you stated.
Additionally, Bigpeteb commented above that despite the presence of 18 places of worship in the North Buffalo article complete with lengthy descriptors, there are 30 entries in the "Drink" section with none at all. The plain fact of the matter is that I drink very rarely and have no interest in the bar scene, and I would be extremely hard-pressed to distinguish one bar from another in any but the most painfully obvious ways. I would like nothing more than for some future contibutor to add nice long descriptions of each of those places. But, until then, I'm the only one who's added any information of substance to those articles, and I did the best I could do.
-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 06:54, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
@Ikan - to address the very beginning of your reply to PrinceGloria, the "Cope" sections at issue were those of the district articles, not the parent Buffalo article. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 07:06, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
I see. Well, I'm OK with the worship listings in the first three districts on the list in the Buffalo guide. The list is more extensive in the North Buffalo guide, and I could see why someone would feel it might be too long and perhaps should be pruned, but unless we're worried about time for the page to load, I think it's OK to have that section, and for people who aren't interested to skip it. But what bugs me in that guide is the 8 "Laundry and dry cleaning" listings. Why are those needed? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:14, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

(reindent) In your own words: "We do have laundromats sometimes listed in 'Cope,' when they're not so easy to find." I wouldn't describe laundromats and dry cleaners to be especially easy to find in North Buffalo (and keep in mind that North Buffalo is geographically much larger than the other three Buffalo districts whose articles are completed as of now). At any rate, it's certainly nothing like you describe Manhattan/East Village to be. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 07:47, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I have to confess, it's easy to see a lot of what's in the Buffalo guides as unnecessary or overly long, but I have a bias toward keeping it (or almost all of it; I'm still not sure about the radio stations and such) because it's good writing. If someone had put in a bunch of worship listings of the exact same houses of worship, but they seemed preachy or overly detailed as listings, I might be tempted to just delete them all, or most of them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:56, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
Andre, I do hope you are not attacking one of our fundamental non-goals, the point of which is that we want a focused list of recommendable restaurants, hotels, bars, etc. rather than a complete list like a yellow pages. It means that if we list everything, then we essentially revert the responsibility of finding the best ones back onto the reader and become a directory rather than a guide. Surely you agree that losing that guideline would be lunacy. The sense in which I referred to a phone book was actually another, which I think Bigpeteb was also pointing out: Listing places of worship is not actually comparable to listing restaurants, for example, where every traveller will likely need several. It is, in one sense, more comparable to listing different, exclusive things from a broad category - one ear-nose-throat specialist, one reconstructive dentist, one dermatologist, one podologist, one oncologist, one psychologist, one family doctor, one pediatrician, one veterinarian, and one geriatric doctor: yes, some travellers might need one specific type; most will not need any. The difference is that there are so many types of churches that, even strictly in regard to the minority of travellers who do insist on going to church during their travels, we could never have any hope of ever meeting the needs of every reader: Catholic, Baptist, Presbyterian, Church of Christ, Jehovah's Witness, Unitarian, Universalist, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Mormon, Christian Scientist, Methodist, many varieties of Evangelical, many smaller Christian denominations, multiple denominations of Judaism, Islam, Hindu, Shinto, and Buddhism, and that is only a partial list. And these are generally exclusive, i.e. a traveller who cares enough to insist on church when travelling is also likely to care which type of church they go to. A Mormon is not likely to spend Sunday morning at a Baptist church, and a Jewish traveller is not going to Catholic mass to worship, therefore any list we could possibly make would essentially serve just a few random subpopulations and exclude many more, meaning that the entire section is completely irrelevant for the vast majority, and all but a line or two is irrelevant for the rest. All this despite the fact that even little towns of 1000 usually have more churches than gas stations. Guidance in finding a like-minded group of people for religious worship is not something the average reader should reasonably expect to find in a travel guide, it bloats the article with info that is extraneous to most and, most importantly, we can never hope to do it well in a thorough way that doesn't discriminate. Texugo (talk) 11:59, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
I agree with Texugo in that people often have very specific requirements as to the denomination of the church they visit. Catholics will generally only visit Catholic churches, although it isn't that straight forward since many Protestant leaning Christians (for example) are often more flexible with visiting churches of other Protestant branches. I would also suggest that the high plurality of places of worship in small towns is something that affects United States articles much more than other places in the world. Honestly, I don't have a strong opinion on this either way, although it would be great to decide on a community position before it becomes an issue. Andrewssi2 (talk) 13:47, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
I would urge anyone joining the conversation to go back and read through the arguments made in the previous discussion. The last time we discussed this, it seemed that more people were against worship listings than for, although no action was taken. Most of the participants of that discussion are still around. Texugo (talk) 15:23, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
This is becoming really ridiculous.
Texugo: I am indeed addressing the particular non-goal you have in mind, more with the intention of questioning the way in which we've been implementing it than throwing out the baby with the bathwater. As I mentioned previously, a travel guide is more than just a list of attractions, restaurants, and bars. It's also background information, as I said, but thirdly, it's a resource for practical information for travellers. That's as true for religious services as it is for sections like "Get in" and "Get around"; no one going to Chicago would consider O'Hare International Airport or the Interstate highways that pass through there worthy tourist sites per se, but information about those things are nonetheless essential for a significant number of people who visit there.
In my writing, that last piece is a key determiner of what I include and what I don't: what is essential information for a significant number of travellers? I would argue that a significant number of travellers would consider to be essential attending religious services even though out of town - maybe a minority, but certainly not a tiny one. There's a very select range of hypothetical categories of listings that would pass that test - religious institutions, hospitals, laundry facilities (arguably) - and that is why Wikivoyage is not a phone book. The majority of what's contained in the Yellow Pages would never be of use to travellers, but in declaring things like religious services to be out of scope we're going way too far in the other direction.
The example you gave of listing every ear-nose-throat specialist, reconstructive dentist, dermatologist etc. in a particular destination doesn't qualify either - there may very well be a rare instance where a traveller would absolutely need those type of services, but the frequency would not rise to the level of a "significant number". As for Purplebackpack's question of where to draw the line, I trust that Wikivoyagers are able to apply common sense to the issue. Certainly there are going to be gray areas - you brought up the question of grocery stores upthread, Texugo, and I personally would be far more open to eliminating those listings from the Buffalo articles than the religious services - and in those cases, I think our current policy of allowing editors to do mostly as they wish, and resolving by consensus individual cases in which other editors object to including certain information, has worked perfectly well thus far. Allowing authors broad latitude to experiment for themselves (within reason) to find what works and what doesn't for their particular style and their particular destination is part of being flexible, and ultimately part of keeping Wikivoyage fun.
To address the other points you brought up, I suppose that there are fewer challenges in this domain regarding Buffalo than there might be for other cities. I've been able to skirt the issue of including every minor religious denomination for fear of discriminating against anyone by the fact that Buffalo is not a terribly populous city and simply doesn't have a congregation for every tiny sect (or even for many major world religions such as Hinduism and Shinto; Erie County's one Hindu temple is in Amherst and I don't know of any Shinto shrines). Furthermore, if you look at the mock-up outline for the East Side district article in my userspace, you'll see that I've already decided that including every little African-American storefront congregation in that district would easily overwhelm the article. I'm also in agreement with Purplebackpack that such an approach would never work for articles on places like Brooklyn. What I'm getting at is, I'm fully conscious that the same approach won't necessarily work for every article, so maybe it's best not to try to standardize the approach for every destination. Ikan said upthread that he feels that the religious services information adds a lot to the Buffalo districts; why take that away from those articles just so we can enforce some arbitrary norm that works for some destinations but not others?
Finally, the fact that we had another discussion about this same issue way back in 2011 is fine and dandy, but without poring through that thread with a fine-toothed comb, I'd posit that maybe the reason it didn't come to any solid conclusion was because it's in direct conflict with another part of our policy. I repeat my earlier question: do we want to include all the practical information readers require and thus be the only guide they'll need for their destination, or do we want to only summarize some parts briefly and accept that they'll need to supplement Wikivoyage with other sources? I'd frankly accept either answer if a clear consensus forms behind it, but I don't think arguments like the one you're making here can hold water absent a change in, or at the very least a significant reinterpretation of, that part of our philosophy.
-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:59, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
I am sorry we disagree, and I certainly don't want this to get heated. I just think there are some things that we should not include because they are too common and easy to find and because including them waters down the guides with information that is not relevant to most. Despite the fact that they can be more "essential" for travel than churches, we avoid listing large sections of gas stations and post offices and couriers and tour agents and banks and grocery stores unless they are hard to find or have something special about them, because they are generally easy enough to find. I believe religious services should be treated similarly if not outright left out, because they are typically even more ubiquitously easy to find, are at least one step less essential than most of those things, and the likelihood of a listing for a given denomination X being used by a traveller is much lower than for other types of listings. Moreover, there is no fair way for us to collaboratively decide which niches to cater to and which to leave out, making any culling of an overgrown list completely unfair to adherents of the culled denominations. My questions to you are how could we ever do this fairly? how many should we allow? how do we decide which ones to allow? why would we consider churches to be more essential than the other things we typically don't list due to them being easy enough to find? Texugo (talk) 18:40, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
I have a few thoughts. First, I don't think we should make the perfect the enemy of the good, assuming that a "Yellow Pages" of houses of worship would be the "perfect." Second, I really do think we should give people latitude if they're doing a good job. Thirdly, even though there may be a bunch of Wikivoyage editors who are not religious and wouldn't be interested in praying while traveling, we do need to keep in mind the readers who are religious and would consider a religious service essential. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:37, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

As I've often seen here, Ikan Kekek's summation seems to have the balance about right.

There are indeed a significant number of travellers who are religious and who will want to attend religious services while away from home. This will be an even more important job of a really good travel guide to direct them when they may be Christians travelling in a predominantly Muslim land or Buddhists in Nepal, for example.

I also think this is the perfect example why Wikivoyage needs to move away from fanatical extremism and rabidly emphasizing that we're "not the Yellow Pages". Texugo has been one of the most active in wanting to keep an almost absolutist prohibition on in-line xl's to other WMF projects like Wikipedia on the supposed grounds that all the information travellers need should be self-contained here on Wikivoyage. He really shouldn't try and swing both ways at once.

However, I really do think that many of our policies should be less rigid and we should trust our editors more to exercise a more nuanced personal judgement based on their local expertise and knowledge. If we have a good table of contents for each article (right now we don't - things took a huge leap backwards both in SEO terms and reader friendliness when we introduced the current castrated horizontal ToC) and hard-working and enthusiastic editors like AndreCarrotflower are selective in what they list, then our current general policies on listings don't really need to change. --118.93nzp (talk) 22:12, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Once again, using terms like "fanatical extremism", "rabidly emphasizing", "absolutist prohibition" are very loaded words. Since you have only recently joined policy discussions, you may not realise that they is totally inappropriate in expressing an opposing viewpoint to those you disagree with.
On the issue at hand, we have to draw the line somewhere between being a listing and/or link farm, and being a guide. We could fill entire articles with lists churches and parishes. If you're not going to draw a line, and you want to become a directory, we quite obviously need a different layout (not to mention, a fundamental change in the way we address every single guide). --Inas (talk) 22:31, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
Point taken about my bad language, Inas. Sorry for any unintended offence!
No, self-appointed "guardians of the Wiki" don't need to parachute in to articles where local editors are already doing a great job and perform a police action. A gentle reminder on the article's discussion page should be sufficient if locally interested editors mean the article is in danger of becoming an undiscriminating link farm or directory. In any case, we have the procrustian 7+2 rule to keep things within limits don't we? However, I must confess that this is a rather rare problem. Most of the random articles I bring up are embarrassingly short of listings. --118.93nzp (talk) 23:26, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

As I occasionally go to services when travelling, I like the idea of listing some churches in cope. For non-tourist churches, we should focus on those of most help to a traveller - churches with foreign language services, those that are open all week, those near the main toursit areas, any that offer particular help to visitors to the area. Historic churches that are open for signtseeing should go in See. Historic churches that are only open for sevices should probably go in Do, like other timed events.

In my experience, people welcoming visitors to (christian) churches open for sightseeing are usually happy to talk about other churches in the area. I have been directed to services in other churches that were at more convenient times. This is unlike dealing with businesses - you would be unlikely to walk into a restauant of one hamburger chain and ask where the competitors are. So in most cases it is reasonable to only list a small selection of the available churches. AlasdairW (talk) 00:09, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

With apologies; as you can imagine, it took me a while to type this up.
I'd like to start by repeating that I feel we should take a reactive, rather than proactive, response to this issue. Rather than coming up with a set of parameters right from the getgo and then expecting editors to abide by them, why not allow authors to feel free to develop the articles as they see fit, recognizing that a one-size-fits-all approach doesn't work for such a diverse range of destinations as we have on this site (not to mention such a diverse range of writing styles), and only meddle with others' work in cases where our common sense tells us that the balance of that particular article, and taking into account the author's particular approach, is off kilter? I think we do the site a disservice by taking an assembly-line approach to issues like this. There's no one right answer to this question, and we should not be in the practice of "standardizing" all the individuality and personality out of our articles.
Notwithstanding that, there are a few things that, in general, should serve as red flags that indicate an article may be overemphasizing less important information. Upthread, Texugo asked me a series of questions that I think can serve as the starting point for a breakthrough on this impasse, so I will do my best to answer them.
  • How could we ever do this fairly? - I assume that with this question, Texugo is referring to his earlier concern that "we could never have any hope of ever meeting the needs of every reader" if we were to list every place of worship of every religion. Once again, I'll use Buffalo as an example, being an American city that ranks near the middle of the pack both in size and in religious diversity. Apart from the usual mix of Catholic and Protestant churches, the city proper contains perhaps three or four each of synagogues, mosques, Buddhist temples, Jehovah's Witness halls, and Eastern Orthodox churches, plus one Mormon church and one Scientology church. Certainly not anything that would overwhelm an article. In fact, the "Places of worship" subsection of the Buffalo parent article is not fundamentally different than it was before talk of districting it began; so perhaps have a look at that to see the non-overwhelmingness for yourself.
Parenthetically, I'm using the parent article as an example rather than the districts mostly because, based on its size and its level of interest to visitors, Buffalo probably shouldn't be districted; the fact that it has been is due solely to my own thoroughness (and not just in my coverage of religious congregations). As for places that are larger and would likely have many more different religions represented among its houses of worship, e.g. New York City, if those articles are anywhere near complete they're likely already treated as Huge Cities with listings devolved to much smaller district articles, so a balance is maintained.
To sum up, I think that even if we're to assume as true the notion that omitting the fringe religions would constitute unfairness (and I'm not at all sold on that notion), the fact remains that this will likely be a problem far less often than Texugo fears.
  • How many should we allow? - While, again, giving a wide berth to authors to decide for themselves what's appropriate, I think some general rules of thumb can be sussed out. Some authors are wordier than others, so I think it's better to frame this in terms of how long is the "Places of worship" section in comprison to the article as a whole, rather than citing some hard-and-fast magic number. Ikan said upthread that he was fine with the number of listings for Buffalo/Downtown, Buffalo/Allentown and the Delaware District, and Buffalo/Elmwood Village, but Buffalo/North Buffalo had more than he was comfortable with, strictly speaking. However, Buffalo/North Buffalo as a whole is quite a bit longer than the other three districts, so proportionally, the length of its "Places of worship" section is not totally out of line with the other districts:
To sum up, I think that we should start worrying when the "Places of Worship" section takes up too much of any given article, proportionally speaking, rather than when some arbitrarily selected number of listings is exceeded. Where the bar should be set is up to consensus, but I don't think the figures I cited above are unreasonable. If all places of worship can be included without overwhelming the article, great; if not, only the most important ones should probably be included. Moreover, in cases where the "Places of worship" section is longer than these guidelines say it should be, authors should be allowed to argue in favor of the status quo if they so choose, rather than their work being subject to reversion based on rigid adherence to policy.
  • How do we decide which ones to allow? - If it were me, and I were faced with the necessity of not including every single congregation, I would probably skim some of the smaller, harder-to-get-to, or less interesting ones from a denomination that's overrepresented (q.v. the aforementioned outline for Buffalo/East Side contained in my namepsace), and I also like PrinceGloria's idea about a higher priority being given to anomalies that may be of use to the traveller, such as a place where services may be held in a foreign language, or the presence of a place of worship for a minority religion. In the final analysis, though, this is a question that in most cases should be left up to the author, who likely knows the destination better than most Wikivoyagers and whose judgment should generally be trusted.
  • Why would we consider churches to be more essential than the other things we typically don't list due to them being easy enough to find? - I don't necessarily take as true the assumption that places of worship are "easy enough to find". It's certainly not (usually) a difficult task to identify a church, but who's to say what denomination that church is just by looking at it (and no, oftentimes it's not made clear on exterior signage)? What about an LGBT traveller that's looking for a congregation that's inclusive (there are stark differences among parishes in Buffalo in this wise, and likely elsewhere, even among the same denomination)? What about someone who's just checked into their hotel for the night, and just wants to figure out where the closest church is, and is tired and doesn't feel like driving around? (By the way, I've spent the past three years working the front desk at various hotels in Buffalo, and that scenario is not as uncommon as some might think.) A phone book would work, sure, but our goal is for readers not to need another source for that information. Also, an address and phone number won't go far in helping the reader figure out what type of church they're dealing with, which is where the background information that I included in my blurbs comes in.
-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:27, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
I find Andre's remarks persuasive, especially in the "leave well enough alone" sense that we should be giving good writers pretty wide latitude in cases that don't obviously and pointedly conflict with the mission of the site - namely, and we should always keep this in mind, to serve the traveler. Any of the other policies or guidelines we use should be subject to a degree of bending when there's a good argument to be made that the traveler's interest is best served by doing so, and other core policies (like avoiding touting and so forth) are not being unreasonably compromised. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:04, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for you thoughtful response, Andre. I don't really know what else to say. I think we both have to recognize that we cannot provide every possible thing a traveller might need without watering down/overburdening our articles; we just draw the line in different places. To me, making sure people are informed about the local Lutheran church or the neighborhood mosque is in the same realm of importance as making sure people know where they can find an office supply store, a tailor, an eye doctor, a barber, a locksmith, a chiropractor, a flower shop, a manicurist, a shoe repair shop, and a million other possible establishments. Yes, travellers might need those things too, but surely you would admit that we don't actually want to clutter up our article providing every possible thing someone could need from a phone book. Those are things we just don't usually list unless there is something quite unusual about the establishment or the situation, and to me, churches should simply be in the same category, where they should not be bothered with unless there is something unusual about them. Nobody is starting up a Church Expedition just yet, so I'm not going to absolutely freak out if we don't immediately firm up our position on church listings or whatever, but I am not really too happy with an amorphous approach based on what so-called "good editors" or "editors who know the city better than we" do, since a large portion of our edits are anonymous or one-off contributions. What do we do when someone starts going through the Southern Baptist Convention directory and adding a church to every little town in the Southern US? Is that OK? What if it's a smaller denomination, or one you've never heard of, or the one that started the previous round of discussion? How would you deal with that user who just wants to add his own church even though you are unfamiliar with it? Can I step in and add scientology offices or atheist gatherings in a series of articles? Will we treat it like hotel chain touting and undo serial additions of a given denomination, even though it's a faulty comparison and even if they provide a factual blurb with no touty language? If not, are you ok with a hundred articles with a Mormon church listing and nothing else? What will you do if an anonymous IP adds three more nicely described listings to the already long North Buffalo article? Texugo (talk) 16:00, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Rare services; list at City or District level?[edit]

Thank you for all of your thoughtful insights! I'm glad that my question initiated a productive discussion. The Buffalo guide is a good model for worship listings, but my recent work on Beijing has presented different challenges. Beijing has only a handful of Christian churches, and very few offer services in English. Thus, I added two listings in Beijing/Xuanwu#Cope and Beijing/Haidian#Cope to aid travelers that might be looking for English-language Christian services. However, would it be appropriate to provide worship listings at the city level, instead of the district level? There are only a few places of worship in Beijing that cater their services to foreigners, and Beijing's subway system makes it easy to travel between districts, so providing one city-wide list might be more meaningful to the reader. At the same time, there are several Buddhist temples, so dividing the list by district seems to be more practical for Buddhists. Any thoughts on how to handle this? Edge3 (talk) 06:15, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

For foreign travellers, I think they would prefer these type of services to listed at the city-wide level as you suggest. --118.93nzp (talk) 09:40, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
I would list them in districts so that they could be more easily shown on readable dynamic maps, but mention them in the main article with links to "Cope" sections in such districts. PrinceGloria (talk) 09:45, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Rail trails: where do you stick 'em?[edit]

Swept in from the pub

I'm trying to figure out the best place to stick a rail trail, a non-motorized bike and pedestrian trail converted from an old railway.

Specifically, I'm considering the OC&E Woods Line State Trail in Oregon. I'm thinking it belongs somewhere on the Klamath Falls article. Maybe under "get around" because it's a great way for pedestrians and cyclists to get from one end of town to the other. But maybe "get in" works better because the trail extends well beyond town and meanders quite a ways northeast, passing through a handful of small towns. But then does it go under "by bike" or "by foot"? Or maybe it goes under "do" instead?

Ideas? Athelwulf (talk) 06:42, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

If it is a good size trail and you can write a reasonable article about the route and places along the way then I would suggest creating an itinerary. Something like the Rheinburgenweg listing places of interest along the way as well as an overview of the trail. Then place in the town articles that the trail passes through a link to the page in the do section, like in Koblenz#Do. --Traveler100 (talk) 07:54, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Athelwulf: I had a similar situation on my hands when I wrote Clarence (though it sounds like the Woods Line State Trail is a good deal longer than the Clarence Pathways). What I ended up doing, and what you might want to use as a sort of template, was giving the trail its own entry under "Do", and also mentioning it in the "By bike" subsection of "Get around". -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 13:51, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Official App[edit]

Swept in from the pub

In which section should I add a link to the official app of a town? I am referring to this app. --Lkcl it (Talk) 19:40, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately I don't think that this app is the "official app". It is not linked from the tourist office in the Iseo article. It also does not appear to be developed by (or for) an official body like the city council. We should only link to apps that would be a primary source (city council, railway, bus company etc). If an app is suitable for linking then we should link to the developer's webpage, not a store for a particular platform. AlasdairW (talk) 20:32, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
Also Iseo municipality has collaborate to develop this app. I can't find any article in English to confirm that, but I have found this one in Italian where it is written: "Il Comune di Iseo e la società Itown Lab hanno creato “Iseo”, un’applicazione gratuita scaricabile da Itunes e Android, che promuove il turismo e permetterà di trovare tutte le informazioni necessarie per i turisti e non solo." "Iseo Municipality and the society Itown Lab have created "Iseo", a free app available on Itunes and Google Play, that will improve the tourism and that will allow to find all the information tourists need." --Lkcl it (Talk) 20:41, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
I tend to see Apps mentioned in the 'Get Around' section.
I sometimes download apps to a new city that I am visiting, but generally speaking they are student projects and not great in terms of quality. It is also hard for the WV community to review the quality of an app as well (since they have to go to the trouble of downloading, installing and running).
Finally it is very difficult to establish what is the 'official' app for a given city. The problem is more to do with the fact that App Stores have no quality control. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:36, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Seasonal recommendations[edit]

Swept in from the pub

Under which headline should you write recommendations for which season to visit a city or a region? For example, let's say I want to write that Stockholm has most comfortable weather during May to September, but the snowy weather in February could be nice, too, or that you should watch for the Culture Night each April. /Yvwv (talk) 16:56, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

"Understand", subsection "Climate" is what I usually go with. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:05, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
I agree. For one complex case, I created a "When to visit" subsection (under "Understand"), but that should be rare. (Such as when the weather isn't the primary motivation.) Powers (talk) 19:13, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Information about events[edit]

Swept in from the pub

Would it be a good idea to add information about annual events to Wikivoyage articles? There's three events that immediately come to mind: The Helsinki Samba Carnaval here in Helsinki, Finland, the World Bodypainting Festival in Pörtschach am Wörthersee, Austria and BoundCon in Munich, Germany. I visit them all regularly (although BoundCon not so often as the other two). Which of these would be worth mentioning? How does one add information about annual events anyway? JIP (talk) 20:47, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

The Do section of city articles is where we put events. Feel free to add any event you wish. ϒpsilon (talk) 20:58, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
If I might take a minute or two to shamelessly promote my own work, you might want to have a look at the "Festivals and events" subsection of the Buffalo district article (especially Buffalo/Downtown#Festivals and events) as a model. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:22, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
If these are events that attract a lot of international visitors, then they could also be listed in the relevant monthly or topic page at Calendar of events and festivals. AlasdairW (talk) 23:38, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
The World Bodypainting Festival in particular attracts people from all over Europe, sometiems even from outside Europe. BoundCon mostly attracts people from Germany and the neighbouring countries. The Helsinki Samba Carnaval usually only attracts Finns. Any passing foreign tourists attend the event, but I'm quite sure no non-Finns visit Finland just to see the carnival. JIP (talk) 22:16, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
It's totally a good thing to list a festival a visitor might enjoy if they were there, but wouldn't travel overseas just to go to. One of the most enjoyable things I did with my brother on a trip to Italy was to happen upon a Festa dell'Unita' in Rome. We probably wouldn't have gone there on purpose, but that's just because we didn't know how much fun it would be. A listing for Feste dell'Unita' would be a great idea. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:34, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
In a similar vein I'd suggest that if there are notable sports teams (soccer) being in most cases the most obvious, but other sports shouldn't be overlooked if they have a local following to not only mention their "rowdy fans" in the stay safe section, but also when their home games are held (day, months and frequency) and if they have any special events. like this: "The Schwäbisch Hall Unicorns play American football on roughly every second saturday afternoon in a season running roughly May to September with October playoffs. Admission is circa 10€ and the atmosphere is usually very friendly with even fans of the rival team welcomed" Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:48, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Tattoo parlors?[edit]

What category would be good for a tattoo parlor? /Yvwv (talk) 14:48, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

I suppose one could "buy" a tattoo, but are they particularly travel-related as a category? K7L (talk) 15:24, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
Do or Buy, I'd say. ϒpsilon (talk) 15:31, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
We are not a yellow pages. That better be one heck of a tattoo parlor. Powers (talk) 17:37, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
The idea is to mention extraordinarily famous and well-reputed tattoo parlors; Salong Betong has reached stardom in Scandinavia, and just opened the world's first airport tattoo parlor at Arlanda. Miami Ink and LA Ink would be other candidates. /Yvwv (talk) 22:09, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
Okay, but to what end? Do we expect travelers to go there to look, or to actually get inked? Powers (talk) 01:04, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
Many people get tattooed abroad; as a permanent souvenir/commemoration, or to get better quality for their money in a low-income country. /Yvwv (talk) 01:25, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
Yes, dangerously close to yellow pages here, but if a parlour merits listing then shouldn't 'do' be more accurate? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 01:40, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
If it's a souvenir, or if they're doing it to save money, Buy would be best. But I could see Cope, since it's a service. Powers (talk) 21:06, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
"Cope" is a last-resort catchall for things which really don't belong anywhere else. If anything, we should be moving anything already there out if it fits elsewhere (clinic, dentist, hospital and pharmacy should go to "stay healthy", for instance). K7L (talk) 22:28, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
Cope doesn't make any sense to me. A person would get a tattoo to cope with what exactly? A personal epiphany/new phase/identity crisis? I'd vote for "Do" because no one speaks of "buying" a tattoo. Texugo (talk) 22:33, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
You guys are taking the section headings too literally. One doesn't usually speak of buying a tattoo, true, but one does acquire a tattoo. And "cope" is for services that travellers need while travelling. Powers (talk) 15:30, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
"Cope" is for services that travellers need while travelling which don't fit anywhere else. I don't see how tattoos are travel-related and I don't see why shopping for ink is any different from shopping for anything else at destination. K7L (talk) 15:54, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
I completely agree with your second sentence. I think I mostly agree with the first, but I don't like characterizing "Cope" as a catch-all. It's true that we have more appropriate sections for some traveler services, but "Cope"'s scope is still limited, to an extent, by its own nature rather than simply by excluding items that belong elsewhere. Powers (talk) 00:39, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
Any objection to moving clinic, dentist, hospital and pharmacy out of "cope" into "stay healthy"? It would seem the best fit. K7L (talk) 03:27, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
Seems like a good plan to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:49, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
It's "Stay safe" for most articles, actually. It's primarily country articles that separate "Stay healthy" out from "Stay safe". Powers (talk) 18:13, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
"Stay healthy" is an optional section for lower-level articles in the hierarchy, but I think it's certainly OK to use if appropriate. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:47, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
If we've used Stay Healthy on city or region articles, it's been very rare. The templates don't include it. See, for example, Wikivoyage:Big city article template, which says (for Stay Safe): "This is a section for general safety tips. If there are health hazards or crime problems in the city, list them here." Powers (talk) 19:01, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
It's indeed rare, but for example, it seems like an excellent place to put information about dentists, doctors and hospitals, which is sometimes included in city articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:59, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I understand the theory, but in practice we have used Stay Safe for such things. Perhaps it was felt that it was better to have a longer Stay Safe section than two short sections. Powers (talk) 18:14, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
I understand that point. "Cope" has often been used, though, showing that it's not self-evident which section should be used for such listings. "Stay healthy" would be the intuitive section for them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:50, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
I never claimed it was self-evident. I completely agree that Stay Healthy is a more intuitive place for them. It's just that most of our articles don't have a Stay Healthy section. Powers (talk) 22:02, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
I didn't mean to suggest that you had claimed it was self-evident. That wasn't a thought that occurred to me at all. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:09, 20 May 2015 (UTC)


I notice someone had added "shower, bath" to Cope alongside "toilet, restroom" but this was removed by a subsequent edit. Are these worth listing, or are there too few of them that are (freestanding) and not part of a truck stop, marina, campground or lodging establishment?

For that matter, is a "truck stop" transportation infrastructure ('get in', 'get around') or a food vendor ('eat')? (We usually don't list commodity petrol/gasoline fuels unless they're somewhere like Trans-Labrador Highway where the next station is 400km away.)

I think I've got the two lists (alphabetical, by category section) to match now. There were a couple of items which looked odd; "ice cream parlour" is usually eat (not drink) and "ski rental" should be with the rest of the sport equipment rental (presumably, "do" - with the associated activity listed - and not "buy"). I've changed these. K7L (talk) 03:04, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the housekeeping.
I think shower and bath got caught up in a different reversion. They seem unnecessary, though, as toilet and restroom should cover them. And they do tend to be part and parcel of other listings; I'm having trouble thinking of a situation in which we'd list them separately.
Truck stops are tricky. Eat is probably best, but only if the food is noteworthy, or if it's the only restaurant for miles. We certainly don't list refueling stations as a matter of course. And for truckers who need a shower, chances are they aren't using Wikivoyage to find a stop.
-- Powers (talk) 00:01, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Our policy regarding "escape games"[edit]

Swept in from the pub

"Escape games" have been recently added to the article on Prague. I wanted to revert said edit until I found another such thing already listed. What does policy currently say? Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:16, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

I believe that these were added before, but had no travel relevance and were therefore removed. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:58, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
So we should remove them on sight? Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:02, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
It's been (re-?)added to the Prague guide. Why does it have no travel relevance? I guess because you could in theory play it anywhere? But in practice, is that true? Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:09, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
I really don't see how an escape room is different from a tennis court, amusement park, petting zoo, cinema, casino or art gallery. All of those are Do-listings you could do virtually everywhere, but can be found in WV:Wycsi. They're there because travellers may want not want to fill their days with sightseeing alone, especially on extended stays. It's just a fun thing to do and this particular one allows couples too (so not only groups). Of course, most of those listings in Prague (including the escape game) should be in the relevant district articles though. JuliasTravels (talk) 14:08, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes, and it should also be detouted. But I agree with you. I don't see why this can't be listed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:10, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
If we are going to list them (& I see no reason why not if they're an activity some travellers will be interested in), then a brief explanation is needed. I for one have no idea what they are. Pashley (talk) 16:56, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I think we should keep them. I've heard about this activity or something similar, it's like a real-life video game where you need to go through a labyrinth and at waypoints find hidden keys, hidden codes and such to get forward. ϒpsilon (talk) 17:27, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
See Real-life room escape. I'm surprised that it's not as well-known as I thought. Here, those things are popping up in every major city, and are rapidly gaining popularity. Actually, it's usually just a room (no labyrinths or such), and participants need to use their critical thinking skills to solve a variety of puzzles and use hints and artefacts in the room to get to the key. I find them quite entertaining, especially with a small group. But a bit of an explanation in the listings might be good then. JuliasTravels (talk) 20:55, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
Just to clarify, I didn't remove the earlier listing. Just from memory I observed someone else doing the same.
I would just point to policy Wikivoyage:Listings#Relevance_to_travel and say that this one is pretty borderline for me Andrewssi2 (talk) 03:47, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
We would not list a tennis court, except for a countryside resort village where there are absolutely no activities besides walking around and playing tennis. For any big city, I am quite sure there are many activities that should have priority over escape games, treasure hunts and pub crawl meetups. Syced (talk) 07:01, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
So as - as far as I understand - those escape games take place mostly in bigger cities (where they should be listed in districts anyhow) and they (as is true for tennis courts) should only be listed in places where there is little to do as they are already marginal to our guides, doesn't that in essence result in a near-total ban with very few exceptions? Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:54, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
No, and I really don't understand why you would even think of a ban :-) Firstly, although big cities obviously hold most of these things there are also many of them in smaller towns and the number is rapidly increasing. Of course we don't want to list every escape room in every city, like we don't list every casino or every art gallery or every hotel. Every article we make should offer a varied range of things to do, and that means some executive choices for the involved editors. While city centres and tourist districts of huge destinations are often fairly packed, outer districts of towns are often considerably less filled with attractions. The super extensive Buffalo districts that AndreCarrotflower has put so much effort into spring to my mind. It seems that if we can list dozens of places to worship and multiple bowling allies in a district, it makes perfect sense to also list an escape room if and when it comes available. In any case, I think we should treat this activity simply the same as all the others, and decide per article what's relevant enough to list and what's not. JuliasTravels (talk) 14:22, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Also, if this is (still) a rather "exotic" activity (is it?), something you cannot do everywhere, it certainly should be among the activities listed in Do. ϒpsilon (talk) 14:29, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Be that as it may, it should not be listed in the main article for Prague but rather in one of the districts. If we agree to list it at all. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:20, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I think we agreed on that already. At first glance however, I was not finding it very easy to determine for sure which Wikivoyage district they're in. The first address is Korenskeho 3, Praha 5; that would be Prague/West_bank_of_Vltava, right? The second is Blanická 9, Praha 2. Is that Prague/New_Town_and_Vysehrad? JuliasTravels (talk) 20:46, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Escape games sound like a great addition when they are unique and famous beyond the city/district and it is something visitors would enjoy participating in. It can't be any worse than the hundreds of burger/curry/pizza shops or any other local restaurant that serves the same food as anywhere in a globalized world or the hundreds of pubs/bars that serve the same beer and smell the same as every other bar in the world yet we still list. Gizza (t)(c) 12:14, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Where you can stick it: Subway stations, bus terminals[edit]

Swept in from the pub

In reference to Talk:Ansan#Metro_listing, pinging User:Andrewssi2 and copying the discussion here, as I believe this is a topic of interest to the entire community:

I saw that User:Pkh409 has started to add metro stations as listings. Can anyone verify this is not how we use listings on Wikivoyage?

I do sometimes add one or two listings for an important train station for entering a new area, but every metro station (10+?) would be very excessive in my opinion. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:31, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, that's an interesting point. What is best practice here? Personally, I think important transport hubs should have GPS entries on the map. While listing individual bus stations may be too much, I'd support listing all train and subway stations, as well as bus terminals. Through to avoid the map clutter, is there a way to trigger layers? Could some entries be coded as transport and be switchable on and off? PS. I looked at Wikivoyage:Where you can stick it, and noticed that it seems to suggest train stations and ferry terminals are valid POIs. It's unclear on subways, and doesn't say anything about buses or bus terminals (perhaps this question should be copied to the traveller's pub?). --Hanyangprofessor2 (talk) 02:45, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
I believe there are people working on a new map control with transport POI's layer. It is very hard to read, but you will find some details in Wikivoyage:Travellers'_pub#Announcing_the_launch_of_Maps --Andrewssi2 (talk) 03:28, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

So, what do people think about inclusion of major public transportation POIs? Do it, not to do it? And if do, how? --Piotrus (talk) 01:34, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm having trouble imagining it for cities with hundreds of stations like New York City, London or Paris. However, I haven't made my mind up on what my opinion is, so I'll leave others to comment for now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:55, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
It really depends from case to case. I'd say in most situations, metro stations should never be listed as POIs. A major regional train station, or the airport, or the only ferry terminal to get to an island, etc? List them. Ideally, they'd be listed using a "Go" template but the discussion seemed to have died off. James Atalk 08:59, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Major stations that can be reached from outside the region should be put in the Get In section, but for inside the city a link to the local transport companies' website in the Get Around section with possibility a link to the page that shows a stations and lines map. Best to look at the topic the other way around. In the listings for major attractions state in the directions field the name of the closest local rail/tram station. --Traveler100 (talk) 14:41, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Major places for getting into destinations themselves (airports, harbors, large bus terminals and railway stations) are absolutely OK to mark on a map. Usually there are one or a few really important ones of each kind. But a city can have hundreds of much less important stops which would probably just clutter up the map and should therefore not be marked.
For this purpose, I personally use markers — these are a smaller and more versatile version of listings. In a marker you can give the type parameter the value "go" to have it marked as a suitcase on the map. Example (the map is further down on that page).ϒpsilon (talk) 15:19, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
I wasn't thinking in terms of hundreds of POI places (since we are editing a mid-size city with ~10 transport POIs, all well spaced), but I see your point. That said, I fondly remember the old Wikipediua layer in Google maps, which did have worse (one color, see [18]) POI system on their map - and it was still very useful. As a tourist myself I used it for both sightseeing and finding the near transport POIs, and deeply regret its deactivation by Google. The best solution would be to figure out how to toggle layers on and off (who's working on that, btw? Any links or pings?) For now, I think it's a question of zooming, and the maps I see seem to be doing ok with that (with the orange plus sign), not to mention that many of those "hundreds of stations" are outside the primary zoom (downtown, historical areas), so I don't think we are going to see even maps for NY or such overwhelmed by that. An alternate solution I could think of would be to have a special public transport subpage/map, ex. Stockholm/Public transport map, which would copy the Get in/Get around sections, and have additional GPS coordinates for the locations. But frankly, I'd first like to see whether a map would really be overwhelmed by the subway stations first, before making a call (for Ansan, I feel it would be just fine). Maybe we should do it on case by case basis? (Oh, and I would probably draw a line at bus stations, those are way too numerous usually... but again, case by case, country/city situations do vary). But do keep in mind that for tourist and travelers, information on public transport is really, really useful. At least, for me, it's one of the key things, and I'd really like to be able to use a Wikivoyage map not just to figure out sightseeing POI, but also how to use public transport to get to them (otherwise, we force the tourist to rely on external maps, and isn't the goal of Wikivoyage to be limit the need to rely on those other sites?). --Piotrus (talk) 01:50, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Weekly entertainment listing?[edit]

The free alternative papers that most large urban areas have (e.g., Metro Silicon Valley, in the San Jose area) can be a great resourse for visitors, with weekly arts and entertainment events (in addition to local political muckraking, which may or may not be of interest). Is it appropriate to put a Do listing somewhere, e.g., "Look for the Local Rag, published every Wednesday and free in news stands through the city, for a listing of events and exhibitions..."? Peter Chastain (talk) 14:04, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to me. Would recommend extracting a few annual events to add to the article though too. --Traveler100 (talk) 14:29, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
Actual listings for media like newspapers go in Cope. You could mention it in Do, I suppose, but I would consider only putting a link in Cope (or have "Local Rag" link to #Cope within the article). Powers (talk) 21:21, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Should exaggerated crime rumors be addressed?[edit]

Swept in from the pub

International mass media have given the refugee situation in Sweden and Stockholm some attention. Right-wing media tend to write about criminal immigrants, while left-wing media warn about racist mobs. These reports have made travellers concerned about visiting Sweden at all (see the Tripadvisor forum: Though a few incidents have become world news (while they would barely make the news at all in a city with a higher crime rate), Stockholm remains among the world's safest cities of its size. (Looking at Talk:Stockholm, some locals have been trying to push a crime- and drug-related political agenda in the article in the pre-Wikivoyage era.) Should the article address rumors such as these? An extreme case would be to scare out the elephant in the room, by addressing a destination's bad rep before anything else; see Colombia. What about destinations infamous for single incidents recently, such as Cologne? /Yvwv (talk) 15:04, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

The same question could be asked about any common misconceptions about any destinations, or anything that could be addressed through prases such as in contrast to common belief... But how common should a prejudice be? Some people might be surprised that skinny-dipping in public beaches is taboo in Sweden today; hardly anyone seems to seriously believe there are polar bears in the street... /Yvwv (talk) 15:33, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Crime is naturally a dice subject and the very fact that serious crime is so rare in most of Europe can distort perceptions when something serious does happen. Just take the example of the US: how many people could correctly guess the overall trend of violent crime in the last two decades or so? And of course Sweden is probably safer in terms of crime than almost any other place in the world... Still, I fully admit to my biases, I don't think we should feature Dresden (which would otherwise make for a great dotm) until and unless Pegida dies down. They are not generally violent, but violence does occur. And the disruption of traffic and daily live on Monday evenings is more than a nuisance... Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:44, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
To answer the original core question, no, we shouldn't go out of our way to address exaggerated crime rumors. Main reason being that we try and be neutral, but there isn't a neutral and simple answer to perceptions of crime. We should rely on evidence of crime rates rather than something purely subjective than give credence to people such as Pegida.
A recent example is Talk:Croatia#Immigrant_crisis where a contributor was concerned that tourists were canceling their holidays because they didn't want to be exposed to refugees, and wanted to assure potential visitors that they wouldn't even catch sight of such people. I'm rather disappointed that we would agree to validate such an unsavory view. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 20:31, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Perhaps a page with links to various governmental agencies such as the US State Department or UK Government travel advisory - link to that page in the sidebar so that the traveller can go to and read... just a thought -- Matroc (talk) 21:20, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Keep in mind that we don't try to be neutral. We try to be fair. Powers (talk) 21:39, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
I think it's perfectly fair and desirable to address exaggerated crime figures and other common misunderstandings about a destination, but briefly. What's "common" enough will always have to be decided on a case to case basis. The media attention for the refugee crisis in Europe does have a large (and often misguided) effect on people's impression of the safety situation there, especially in cities and countries that have repeatedly been featured on the news. I don't necessarily think it's "unsavoury" to rationalize the situation in e.g. Croatia, Greece or Germany and provide a somewhat more balanced view from a traveller's perspective. I don't think the editor on Talk:Croatia wants to assure visitors they will not even get a glimpse of the refugees. His point is that the perception of Croatia is shifting in an unfair way and it will likely discourage people from visiting. He's right. The same for German destinations. Yes, one should avoid Pegida demonstrations, sure, but on the grand scale of things, the whole of western Europe (including Dresden and Cologne) is still very safe. We're currently featuring Antigua Guatemala, one of the safest destinations in Guatemala. The stay safe section advises to keep a separate wallet with a few dollars, to give to armed robbers. Kidnappings occur on popular hiking routes. The suggestion that we shouldn't feature Dresden because there are Pegida-demonstrations on Monday evenings seems exaggerated, in comparison. JuliasTravels (talk) 11:08, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
I feel that addressing myths and stereotypes goes a long way to perpetuating the stigmatization of those people if not done carefully. Anyway we do list things that are dangerous in certain countries, not make long lists of things that are not dangerous. Andrewssi2 (talk) 20:57, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
That's possible. One way to reduce that risk is to frame factually inaccurate beliefs as minority opinions, e.g., something like "A few people have gotten the mis-impression that..." rather than "Most people believe..." Most people will believe whatever you tell them most other people believe. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:43, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

(indent) I guess it just depends on how bad the incidents are and/or how bad the reputation of the destination really is. Lots of unpleasant things happen all the time that put various cities in the spotlight for a short period of time that are not worth mentioning in the articles, but if the reputation does happen to stick in people's minds and concerns for the long-term, it may be worth addressing. I think the difference between talks regarding features between Western Europe and other places, such as Guatemala, is that Western Europe is portrayed and portrays itself as "safe" and free of any kind of danger or unrest while Guatemala is often prefaced with cautions, so heightened awareness make travelers more aware, better prepared, and less surprised by incidents in Guatemala while they're more likely to get lulled into carelessness in Western Europe. They are "surprised" when they are mugged, even though it's a rather common experience. In a more extreme example, we would probably not hesitate to feature destinations in Israel where conflicts occur however, if the same level of conflict occurred in Spain, I imagine there would be strong opposition to featuring cities in that area. We have different expectations about Spain and Israel in which we accept that Israel has conflict and travelers to Israel should be aware while we would be surprised if the Spanish and Basque were behaving as Israel and Palestine and probably not feature anything there until it became more familiar as well. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 14:31, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Go next vs see[edit]

Swept in from the pub

I'm still a newbie to this project but I'm keen to give back to it this year so am doing more editing and I'm thinking about ways we could improve the project technically (maybe as part of google summer of code). Disclaimer: I'm building an offline wikivoyage app for my next backpacking trip but more about that later.

One thing that is confusing me is I continually see things in the go next section that I don't feel belong there and are better suited in the see section. One great example is the York article. Castle Howard is a day trip not a destination in itself. As a long time paper guidebook user this distinctions is important to me. Go next sections are used to work out places to go and visit and stay, not simply go to see for a day. As a rule of thumb if a go next destination doesn't have a wikivoyage page I would not expect it to be here. What do others feel about this? Has this been discussed before? Is there some way we could give better guidelines to users when editing on what to put here? Jdlrobson (talk) 20:33, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

[w:Castle_Howard] is 15 miles from York, but probably not a destination article in itself. Therefore probably best leave as a 'see' listing.
It isn't that unusual to create 'see' listings outside of the immediate destination if they do not constitute an article by themselves or belong to another destination. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:45, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
In general, "go next" is a list of articles for adjacent or nearby destinations - most often the next town and next major city on each highway or rail line. Actual listings for attractions and activities belong in "see" and "do" respectively. Wikivoyage:What is an article? indicates a destination meets the "can you sleep there?" test, where to be a possible candidate as a usable destination (and not merely a listing) a place should have some way to get in, something to see or do, somewhere to eat and somewhere to sleep. Merrickville is an easy day trip from Ottawa, but it gets an article as it has enough to stand alone. An individual castle? Probably not, it gets a listing.
The one possible exception to forcing listings into see/do/eat/drink/sleep would be a small city or town separated by miles of pasture land from one (or a handful) of tiny villages with a listing or two each. We list contiguous suburbs as part of the city. A group of rural villages? A rare few small-town destinations have the town itself with see/do/sleep... followed by "Nearby" (with the subsections being the names of individual villages, with a brief description and a listing or two in each) followed by "Go next" with the next destinations to actually have an article. For instance, Miami (Oklahoma)#Nearby devotes a subsection to a lead-contaminated ghost town, Picher OK, that's not going to get its own article.
That's rare. In general, "go next" lists destinations with actual articles and roads to those destinations. K7L (talk) 00:34, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
I made this edit based on the above. I've seen many other articles which have the same problem so please shout now if there's any issue with this edit :) Jdlrobson (talk) 05:22, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
I think it's fine. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:35, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Whether something is a daytrip depends whether you are driving, going by bus, walking, etc. Also how much there is to do. For exmaple in the Rotterdam article, Amsterdam is in a daytrip list under the Go Next section. I think that most travellers would want to stay in Amsterdam, so it should be just a Go Next. Go Next destinations should not necessarily have their own article with sleep options. They could just be great destinations in an area that have its own article. For example in Izmir Selçuk is a Go Next that mention Ephesus. I think it might be better to just make Ephesus a Go Next even if you cannot sleep there Elgaard (talk) 22:06, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

What's the difference between 'See' and 'Do' on the wikivoyage page?[edit]

Swept in from the pub

Actually, I don't know well about the difference between 'See' and 'Do'. sometimes there are some informations of parks or famous mountain on 'See' section. As well there are some information about ocean in 'Do' section. what is the exact difference? and if there are informations about the temple, whick section would be suitable? See or Do?--Jisoo-U (talk) 07:33, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

You're talking about a temple that's an attraction as a sight to see, right? That would belong in "See". I know that which section has which listing isn't always consistent in practice, but there's a handy page that helps answer questions about what belongs in which section: Wikivoyage:Where you can stick it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:14, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
Hi Jisoo-U. Look at Wikivoyage:Big city article template#See and the 'Do' section that follows it. 'See' is for attractions that don't move much, and there is a list of examples there. 'Do' is for activities and performances, rather than static attractions. Some of the things that go in 'Do' are a bit surprising. For example, movie theatres go in 'Do', because the actors are performing, even though the visitor just sits and watches. Check that page and the one that Ikan gave, and if you are still not sure, just put things where you think is best. Someone else might move it to another section, but at least you will have written the information, which is the most important thing. Nurg (talk) 10:40, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Hot springs[edit]

Missing from this page, where should they go? -- 06:35, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Follow the same guidelines as beaches, I would say: See if they're just nice to look at; Do if people usually bathe in them.  Powers (talk) 15:04, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

dress (everyday wear)[edit]

I see "dress (everyday wear)" has been added to ==Cope==. I'm unsure about this one; isn't Cope just a list of miscellaneous services that don't fit anywhere else, from coin laundrettes to consulates to car repair? Purchasing clothing is "Buy", advice to 'dress warmly' for some bitterly-cold Arctic destination is likely "Prepare" where applicable (itinerary, maybe parks) and climate in general is "Understand". K7L (talk) 15:30, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Proper attire is usually covered under Respect. I agree that Cope is not the right place for it. Powers (talk) 17:19, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
I agree with you guys. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:54, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
See the earlier discussion #More information on how to dress. Also look at the contents in USA#Dress, Japan#Dress, and Hawaii#Dress. This is not about "how do I avoid offending people", this is about "how should I dress for sightseeing, or going to the beach, or going to a nice restaurant". I don't see how that kind of information would fit under "Respect". Where else would you prefer to put it? --Bigpeteb (talk) 17:07, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
No, I disagree. Fundamentally, clothing is about personal comfort, but if respect for others wasn't a concern, you could wear whatever you wanted to the beach or sightseeing and we wouldn't need a section about it at all. To the extent we talk about appropriate attire, it's largely about what will keep you from being seen as offending local custom. Powers (talk) 20:01, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
I agree with you again, Powers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:00, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
So are you saying the sections I pointed out on those articles are unnecessary, or that they should be moved to those countries' Respect sections? --Bigpeteb (talk) 19:10, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, they should probably all be moved to "Respect". Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:47, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
I agree. Powers (talk) 20:55, 8 September 2017 (UTC)


Should cyclone/hurricane/typhoon season be mentioned in Climate or in Stay safe? I feel like it can fit in both sections. Gizza (roam) 02:41, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

I agree. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:51, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
The fact that there is a hurricane season should be mentioned in Climate. What to do in the event of a hurricane should be in Stay safe. Powers (talk) 19:36, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
Wasn't there a travle topin on Severe Weather, also Tornado Safety got it's own redirect I think. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:33, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
Severe weather is a standalone travel topic, as is Tornado safety; see Wikivoyage:Joke articles/Interdimensional travel/Land of Oz. K7L (talk) 02:11, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Merging "stay safe" and "stay healthy"?[edit]

Swept in from the pub

Given this, which is apparently correct based on the big city article template (but still weird, given that other articles put information about hospitals under "stay healthy"), should we find some new category in which to put both with a name indicative of both being present? After all, stay safe and stay healthy sections tend to accumulate WV:Obvious material and be rather short besides. Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:55, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

We may put hospitals in "Cope" (a catch-all section for everything from laundrettes to diplomatic high commissions) if the article lacks a "Stay healthy" section. Wikivoyage:Where you can stick it should mention this expressly. K7L (talk) 17:07, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
Stay safe and Stay healthy usually overlap a lot, and a merger would make sense. The standard format has far too many headlines, compared to the 7±2 format. As a bonus effect, the merger would increase divergence from The Other Site; improving SEO as well as impression of originality. /Yvwv (talk) 02:23, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
Which new heading should we chose? I don't really like "cope" tbh. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:51, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
Put me down in support of maintaining a separation between "Stay safe" and "Stay healthy" when that's logical. Concerns about crime are quite different from information about clinics or locally endemic diseases.
As for "Cope", is it better than "Miscellaneous"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:12, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
Well in the linked example, a hospital is listed under "stay safe", so the current layout already partially goes against your concerns, Ikan. Or am I mistaken? Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:31, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
You are not mistaken in your observation. I am in favor of using "Stay healthy" whenever it's relevant, regardless of what level of hierarchy the article is at, whereas current guidelines are to conflate "Stay healthy" with "Stay safe" at lower levels of the hierarchy. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:08, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
"Stay safe" would be a good name for a health & safety category. The travel topic Stay healthy could be a sub-topic to stay safe. /Yvwv (talk) 20:00, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
I don't think health is a sub-aspect of safety. I think both are sub-aspects of "stay in one piece". But I have yet to find an elegant verbal phrase for that... Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:52, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
A bit late to the party I'll try to breathe some life into this discussion as I think this is a rather good proposal. As I think about the "Cope" section it should contain information which is not part of the reason why the destination is interesting, but which is nevertheless relevant to any traveler going there. You don't visit a destination because they have a nice public wifi, embassy or laundromat. (If the laundromat is spectacular enough to attract visitors in should be listed under "See" or "Do" rather than "Cope".) Nevertheless you might want information about such things when travelling. "Cope" could just as well have been labeled "Get by", but is not a "Miscellaneous" section. Understood this way it seems rather natural to include "Stay safe" and "Stay healthy" (and "Talk"?) as subsections of "Cope"/"Get by". MartinJacobson (talk) 11:57, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm also late to this discussion, but I think 'Cope' should remain as a heading. Other less-obvious things that can be included here are semi- or non-functional postal systems, banking issues, etc. –StellarD (talk) 14:59, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Wouldn't our non-functional third world postal system be listed in 'Connect', much like banking and our toy currency are described in 'Buy'? The 'Cope' section is for miscellanea which fit nowhere else. K7L (talk) 16:01, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Costume stores[edit]

Swept in from the pub

I was wondering where to mention costume stores?

Somewhere like Angels is widely known in London, but I am not going to add these to article without a second opinion given the strcit views Wikivoyage has about 'advertising' specifc entities. Is there a "iconic" status criterion I could apply? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:06, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

I do not see an issue here if this is a specialist notable establishment that people specifically travel to visit, then it can be a Buy listing. --Traveler100 (talk) 17:41, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Buy, in the district article where the shop is located. ϒpsilon (talk) 17:58, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
It's not one that people would say consider travelling from abroad to the UK for, but certainly people will travel from outside London (within the UK) to consult. There are some other less well known stores in London I wanted to add as well ( at District level), but their ranges (at least in the UK) are broadly generic.

My wording on what I might have added as a Buy section in the Halloween article ( seems best fitted there) was along these lines.

"Costume stores in the UK range from a couple of high end hire firms (such as Angels in London's Theatreland), to more generic party suppliers in most major cities. Costume designs available tend to shift each year, with Rubies and Smiffy's brand being highly regarded."

I will definitely consider adding Angels to Buy in the relevant District, but would like to add some others I am aware of in London that are less well known outside of their local market area.

These were some of the criterion I had in mind (guideline)

  • Does the outlet stock something that would not be an everyday purchase?
  • Would travellers be looking for an outlet like this specifically?
  • Does the outlet have an 'iconic' status, or has it become part of the heratige of the relevant city/district etc.
  • Has this outlet been mentioned or recomended in other guides?


ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 08:08, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

It is doubtful that many people will travel any great distance (at least from abroad) purely to visit a costume shop, but on the other hand some people visiting a location will want to know about the presence of such shops, especially this time of year. Ergo, this information is clearly useful to travellers so it's best included than not. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:18, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
There are other specialist shops in various places that are described on WV. One example is Fry's Electronics. We also sometimes describe specialised items for sale in normal shops, e.g. Go bowls under Mount_Wuyi#Buy. This is good & more should be encouraged.
I recall finding an interesting kite store in London a few decades back & if it still exists, I'd say it is definitely worth listing. Pashley (talk) 12:48, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
You mean the one on Neal Street ?( ) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 07:30, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Listing type "guide" (esp. See vs Do)[edit]

Swept in from the pub

Guys, I'm quite sure I saw the hints page somewhere - either here, or at WT. Basically, I'd like to get consistent on what goes into "do" and "see" sections. What I especially struggle with are natural sights (if I have to hike 4 hours to it, is it still "see"?) and stuff like museums/zoos. If there's no such thing, perhaps we could add some list of common suspects e.g. here? (talk) 18:32, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

I think there is some "Where you can stick it" page somewhere in our policies under that or a similar name. It might need updating, though. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:09, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
Wycsi. Apparently, if the thing involves people (yourself or somebody else) doing something it should probably be a Do. If you are watching animals or inanimate objects it is a See. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:22, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
I added a link to Wycsi to Wikivoyage:Listings. It should have been there somewhere all along. Powers (talk) 20:41, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
Overall our policy on listings seem to have been edited only very little in the last few years (cf: the "Project" links). Maybe we should have a debate which aspects we'd want to change. I for one advocate for fleshing out WV:Boring a bit more; namely that interesting instances of otherwise boring listings should get listed. For example the very first MC Donald's should probably get a listing... Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:43, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
I think we already do this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:56, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
I don't think "our policy hasn't changed in a while" is in itself a rationale for a change in policy. Perhaps the reason why it hasn't changed is because it works well. Let's focus on improving our content rather than searching for policy problems to solve. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:46, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
Ah but there is a fine difference, you see. It's not that the policy hasn't changed. It's that the article hasn't changed. A lot of stuff we've come to do around here and even to enforce to a degree are not actually policy. And on the other hand some policies are dead letter now. If that isn't the case, great, we can still fix formatting or wording and replace the "Project" words... Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:51, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
Hobbitschuster - On that note, you're absolutely right. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:50, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Architecturally notable embassies[edit]

Swept in from the pub

How should we deal with embassies whose architecture is either particularly pretty or which are immediately apparent to the eye. We list them in cities (even districted cities) under "cope", but should we mention their architectural features and/or make them see listings in the districts or something else? And yes, this is somewhat related to the rail station quandary that I also raised over at Talk:Biel. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:05, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

I guess this is difficult, as one of the nice diplomatic things countries often do is turn architecturally pleasing buildings over to ambassadorial use. Cities like London, Paris, and no doubt Washington, are awash with distinctive embassy buildings. So we could list these places under 'see', but it might be at the price of adding dozens of duplicate listings (albeit focusing on different elements of the same address). --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:26, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
If an embassy is really particularly interesting or pretty, so much so that it's worth highlighting for sightseers that don't have embassy-related business, then I think it's appropriate to give it a "See" listing. (This is the same way I feel about train stations, as I tried to express in a discussion above.) To be clear, I definitely don't think we should add every interesting-looking embassy in London to the "See" sections—only any that are especially appealing to sightseers. Also, if there's a neighborhood or street that's particularly full of architecturally interesting embassies, that could be added as a "See" listing rather than adding individual embassies to the section. —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:20, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
If it helps at all, the embassies in London are mainly clustered around Westminster (obviously), Mayfair and Kensington, but that still makes more than a hundred in an area dominated by fabulous-looking properties. It seems to me a fine line between an "interesting-looking" embassy and a "particularly interesting embassy", and that is inherently subjective. I'm not arguing against you really, just pointing out there aren't any easy answers. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:47, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
Yes, it is the same fine line we have to deal with for all "See" listings. I don't see why embassies are any different. —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:50, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
Can't we just add a line to some embassy listings saying "a beautiful (architectural style) building dating to (era)"? Just like we surely can for the "get in" section listings of very close to all train stations where such might seem appropriate. Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:34, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
Hobbitschuster has the right idea I think, at least for embassies. The difference from normal see listings, is normally there's just one listing, so we don't have to be picky. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 00:39, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

(unindent) This boils down to a case of a place that's necessary to list in "Cope" but also worthwhile to list in "See". Why can't we have both? The weak link in this scenario is the policy that says we can't have duplicate listings. This, to me, is pretty clearly the exception that proves the rule. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:04, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

The problem, it would appear to me, is that we don't want every embassy to get double listed (and at any rate, the "see" listing would have to be in the district article anyway) and it is not entirely clear which objective or subjective criteria there are to be used to decide which embassy, does, as it were, get double listing. Hobbitschuster (talk) 03:11, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
If there's an embassy that's notable enough to be listed in any category other than "Cope", IMO no one should worry about double-listing it. If you feel like it's more of a gray area and you're not sure whether or not an embassy is notable enough to be double-listed - and this is the part I want to emphasize, because this advice is applicable to a lot of these questions that come up sometimes - then instead of waiting for the community to come to some hard-and-fast rule, you should simply proceed according to your best judgment, and if someone else has a problem with that, let them take it up on the talk page of the article or on your user talk page. As long as you have a reasonable explanation for why you did what you did, no one is going to fault you for plunging forward, and if your edit gets reverted, so be it. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:39, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
A pictogram like Architecture-1298980.svg or Arkitekturo.png could be included in the description of the embassy (or school, restaurant, hotel, theatre, ...). The pictogram should have a mouse over text with explanation. And if it is used in an article, the see section could refer to them like "Note, the ... sections have also buildings that are interesting/great to see". --FredTC (talk) 05:26, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
You could propose the addition of pictograms in Wikivoyage talk:Listings, but let's not use them unless a consensus supports them. So far, we haven't used them and have indeed deleted the freelance use of them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:00, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
If something already has a listing in another section of the same article, another full listing, pictograms or much of anything else other than one brief line of plain text like "Embassy Row is known for the historic architecture of the X, Y and Z missions" is probably overkill. We don't want to repeat ourselves unnecessarily. K7L (talk)
I agree with this. I think the best solution would be a full listing in "See" and then a listing in "Get in" that mentions only practical matters, except for a sentence stating something like "This station is also a notable sight: See the listing in the "See" section". Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:14, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
I agree with AndreCarrotflower and Ikan Kekek. —Granger (talk · contribs) 10:02, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
For embassies, there are exceptions. The French Embassy in Rome would be listed in the section with embassies but also must be listed as a "See" listing because it's the Palazzo Farnese. See Rome/Old Rome#Historical buildings. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:32, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
I see no reason why we can't list an embassy in both Cope and See. Each listing serves a totally different purpose. Powers (talk) 02:17, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Trains that are tourist attractions in themselves[edit]

Where should kid trains like Thomas the Train in Tallin go?

What about Roaring Camp & Big Trees Narrow-Gauge Railroad? --DenisYurkin (talk) 17:56, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

They would go in the Do section. I think they would be regarded as activities. --Traveler100 (talk) 19:43, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
Is it worth mentioning in wycsi list? --DenisYurkin (talk) 20:51, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
Yes, I think it can be mentioned. ϒpsilon (talk) 22:38, 19 January 2018 (UTC)