Wikivoyage talk:Where you can stick it

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Tap water should be in "drink"[edit]

Because after all, you drink it. Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:16, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • We don't need to be that literal. "Drink" is better reserved for the social meaning of drinking, i.e., alcohol, tea, coffee. Water, on the other hand is essential-for-life drinking, and is better placed in Stay safe. In many places, you must Buy water before you drink it. People can Sleep on buses and trains. But there is no need to start moving things around to be literal. Ground Zero (talk) 18:10, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think "Stay healthy" (the current policy) makes more sense, but I don't feel strongly about it. For the sake of consistency, though, please don't change the policy without also doing the legwork to move the information around in the 200+ articles that have it.
By the way, Ground Zero, I recall you went to Transnistria recently. Do you know if tap water is drinkable there? I've been trying to make sure that all country articles have information about tap water, and that's one of the few where it's still missing. —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:18, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't recall buying water there. I'm pretty sure that the tap water was okay to drink (it did not give us stomach problems), but that was just in Tiraspol. I can't speak for other places. Ground Zero (talk) 10:25, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, thanks—I've added a sentence to Transnistria#Stay healthy (of course, feel free to rephrase as you see fit). —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:37, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not so sure here. I'd say that if information about tap water is included for health-related reasons, it should go in stay healthy, but if it makes sense to put the information in drink, it would belong there. But since tap water is tap water, I would think that mostly on Wikivoyage, tap water is mentioned for healthy and safety reasons (not, tap water tastes the best at place X), so the status quo is probably appropriate. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:29, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What to do with listings that span articles[edit]

Swept in from the pub

Specifically, I'm cleaning up and adding content to Huaraz, Caraz and Huascarán National Park. What I'm running into is certain listings (like Laguna Parón, Laguna 69... etc) are located in the park, but it's common to visit them via tours from Huaraz or Caraz.

More generally, what's the best way to organize listings that could be included in multiple articles while minimizing duplication (descriptions, pricing) while still having visibility. My thought is to have more general information in the Park article (this is what it is / why you should care / specific things you should know once you are there) and then the specific details for getting there in the city articles (this is how much a tour costs out of this town). However, this is bad for people who only have an offline city article because it may be missing details that they care about. It's also a bit of a challenge to write the city listing descriptions with the proper level of description and without copy-pasting the content between city articles.

Are there any articles that have examples of how to address this?

Muddyhikers (talk) 22:48, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's a very good question, and unfortunately for you, it's a situation where policy doesn't speak unequivocally. I've long been of the opinion that our policy against duplicating listings across multiple articles should be loosened in certain cases (see Talk:Buffalo#Delaware Park / Buffalo Zoo and Talk:Clarence (New York)#Amherst for two cases where I've run across this problem in my own work). The best answer I can give you is, in the spirit of "the traveller comes first", to do whatever makes the most sense and have a rationale at the ready if anyone questions why you're doing what you're doing. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:02, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@AndreCarrotflower: I think the reason duplicate listings are not recommended is because people would use duplicate listings to advertise their business. In the case above, as I see it and according to the information provided in the above two comments, it's OK to add information to multiple articles at once because there's no touting involved. I'd say, place phone number, address, etc. in all the articles. Place information about getting in primarily in the city articles. Include a very short summary of the destination itself in each of the city articles, just saying basically what it is (perhaps accompanied by a picture); in the park article, include plenty, if possible, of specific information about the POI. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 00:08, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think the policy should be that duplicating listings is generally not done, but allowable where it's the approach that makes the most sense for the traveller. Certainly duplicate listings can be a form of touting, but we already have a "don't tout" policy that could be used to justify reverting such edits. Nor do I think loosening this policy would open the floodgates to a deluge of duplicate listings; touts generally aren't the type of folks who concern themselves too much with policy in the first place.
I also think that we should loosen the policy against listing the same establishment in multiple sections for cases in which it makes sense from the traveller's perspective to do so. Take a case like the recently-closed Vera in Buffalo's Elmwood Village, which was notable both for really creative craft cocktails made with locally-distilled spirits and as the first place in Buffalo to really jump on the artisanal pizza bandwagon. There's no reason why someone who's looking for a good pizza should have to go to the "Drink" section to find that listing, nor is there any reason why someone who wants a craft cocktail should have to go to the "Eat" section to find the listing. So I listed the place in both categories under the principle that ttcf supersedes all other policies. And that's just one case out of a couple dozen that you could point to in the Buffalo district articles alone. If "ttcf supersedes all other policies" is invokable that frequently, that's a good sign that the policy ttcf is repeatedly superseding maybe ought to be rethought.
-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:39, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
One of my biggest concerns with the multiple listings is they begin to diverge over time (prices/details updated in one place and not the other). On one hand, duplication is a good thing for the traveler because it makes things easier to find, but it's also a very bad thing if the two listings have conflicting info as it's difficult/impossible to know what the authoritative source is. Ideas on how to reconcile this with ttcf?
Muddyhikers (talk) 02:18, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that duplicate listings are okay when that's what's best for the traveler. The issue of keeping the content up-to-date in both places is a real one, though. In some cases I try to centralize the information in one article and add pointers from all the other articles where it's relevant. For example, Bandar Seri Begawan#By boat has fairly detailed information about ferries, and other articles such as Brunei and Labuan have a basic summary and a link to the article with more information. A disadvantage to this strategy is that a reader who prints out a few articles might neglect to print the one that has the information, but I try to be careful in choosing where to centralize the information to make that problem less likely. —Granger (talk · contribs) 02:26, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Duplication leads to a quick bit rot indeed - some guy started reorganization of a major city, left it halfway done - and it was quite a mess half a year later. I wouldn't say you cannot duplicate listings - but just put detailed info in one, and make the others a short "teaser" + link to the main one (e.g. Laguna Churup). The good question is, whether the visitors of WV usually download the offline page, or rather use some app, like OsmAnd or Maps.me - where you have the whole guide offline. -- andree.sk(talk) 05:48, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't this precisely why we added the lastedit= feature to the listing template? In the case of discrepancies between two duplicate listings, it should be a simple matter to determine which information is more recent. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:54, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's a nice idea in theory, but in practice people often update listings piecemeal, rather than bringing all the information up to date at once, and sometimes don't click the button to mark them up to date even when they should. Moreover, some kinds of information like transport options aren't usually presented in listings. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:03, 11 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Capitalizing "city" on this page[edit]

This seems to me to violate Wikivoyage:Capitalization, but it also seems to be a consistent feature. So why don't we make that word lowercase? Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:23, 24 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's not just "City", it's also "Park", "Region", "Country", "District" etc... I don't feel strongly about this, but note the capitalisation makes the type of article stand out alongside the relevant section.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:39, 24 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, this is fine, or at least not worth fussing over. Wikivoyage:Capitalization doesn't really apply, as that's for main articles, not project pages (which are meta-content about Wikivoyage, meant for editors and not travellers). The capitalization helps it stand out, as the two things you need to know are what section to put something in, and what type of article it belongs in. If anything, I'd rather fix it to be more consistent so that we always capitalize "District", "Country", etc. --Bigpeteb (talk) 17:25, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Where to put board game cafes?[edit]

Swept in from the pub

I was thinking about adding a listing for a board game cafe, but then realized that WV:STICK didn't have advice to stick such a thing. For the unfamiliar, board game cafes are places you can go to play games for a couple hours after paying a small entry fee. Usually offer some food and drink. They often also sell copies of games as well. There's some more background at these articles: [1] [2]

I'm torn between the 'buy' section (like book stores, because it's a similar atmosphere) and the 'do' section (which is advised for video games). Would love to hear other thoughts.  –Nucleosynth (t c) 05:09, 2 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cafes belong in "Drink", and it sounds like the fee to play a board game is optional, like the fee to play pool at a bar. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:11, 2 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not always optional; I think some establishments charge the fee on entry whether you get a coffee or not. Others don't let you play unless you pay, but getting food/drink is fine. However I worry we'd be doing a disservice sending hungry/thirsty travelers there unless they were looking for such a place specifically: the coffee isn't the point of such a place, and there's a lot more space and attention devoted to tables for gaming.  –Nucleosynth (t c) 06:03, 2 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Gotcha. In that case, I'd post it in "Do", because the point of the place is to play a board game. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:25, 2 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good to me, thanks!  –Nucleosynth (t c) 16:58, 2 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Under which section does one list gas stations?[edit]

Swept in from the pub

Would it be under 'Buy'? Andrepoiy (talk) 02:17, 24 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Depends on why you're listing it. Most of the time it's only relevant to Get Around: By Car; travellers don't really shop for gas. Powers (talk) 02:24, 24 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In most cases, don't list them at all; they are common enough that we need not give a list.
There are exceptions. Some stations are of historic interest or serve as landmarks for navigation, & in a remote or desolate area travellers may need to know where stations are to avoid running out of gas & being stranded. Pashley (talk) 03:31, 24 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the above answers, but note they are not mentioned in Wycsi - will do that now.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:19, 24 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Trash and recycling?[edit]

In Japan these are listed under Respect. It makes a bit of sense when you read that section, but there's probably a better section for this kind of info. I would guess either Cope or Stay healthy? --Bigpeteb (talk) 22:00, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cope makes the most sense.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 07:48, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Making something perhaps obvious official policy[edit]

Swept in from the pub

So I have been adding a lot of listings from WD recently and I noticed that quite a few towns in Germany follow the lead of Berlin with its "Museum Island" and have "museum mountains", "museum districts" or even "museum islands". Sometimes they have an umbrella scheme even for museums which are not geographically clustered so you can get one ticket for either one of them or a slightly more expensive one (but cheaper than individual tickets for all of them) for all all of them. I think we should make it explicit policy that such schemes where they exist and do not cross WV district boundaries (though in that case there may be a case to be made for different district boundaries) get a four = heading, which looks like this: ====museum quarter special ticket scheme==== or whatever the appropriate term may be. Other museums can be grouped under ====other museums==== or may be further subdivided as the case may be. This may sound obvious and is probably consensus already, but we could add it at "Where you can stick it" and to other relevant policy and help pages... Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:02, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the idea, and indeed have already been doing the same thing in some articles. I wouldn't necessarily just specify museums, though; there must be other types of attraction that belong to mutual admission schemes. And such tickets, where they do cross district boundaries, should be mentioned in the appropriate section of the parent city article. E.g. if museums belonging to an all-in-one admission scheme are spread across different boroughs of Berlin, then the scheme and museums should be mentioned (but not listed) in Berlin#See.
Expanding further, sometimes whole cities get in on the action, for instance the York pass covers about 40 attractions around York, so I dedicated a part of the 'Understand' section to presenting and explaining the pros and cons of that pass.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:29, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we can handle this by policy, as the schemes differ. In Finland there is a "museum card", valid in most significant museums all over the country. I suppose there are schemes with spotty coverage over laŕge areas (e.g. all museums on a specific theme or owned by a specific agency). For Finland I mentioned the museum card in Finland#See, but I have not been adding mentions to all involved museums. A non-intrusive uniform link could work if coverage is stable. --LPfi (talk) 11:45, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps not a blanket policy then. Most major museums in the UK are subsidised by the government and so free to visit, so it certainly varies around the world. But I see no harm in mentioning these schemes in relevant Wikivoyage:Article templates and WYCSI.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:24, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Wow! I don't remember that being the case when I visited, but that's a long time ago. In Sweden they did so, but the decision was reverted by a right-wing government. Here most museums are subsidised, of course, but they still need also the ticket money.
I think we should develop best practices for different scenarios before giving definite advice in the templates and guideline pages. Often some other grouping is more relevant.
--LPfi (talk) 14:44, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly depends on the scale again. If it's like Hobbitschuster originally envisaged, across museums in a single city, all the ones covered by a pass being grouped together makes sense to me. But if it's across a larger area, then geographical location, theme etc would be more relevant.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:39, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Watching wildlife[edit]

Visiting somewhere for the purposes of seeing wildlife, is this a 'See' or a 'Do'? The main component of this activity is just using your eyes and looking, but usually you'll need to hike or bike to a particular spot or else drive off-road; there are also common accompanying elements which are more obviously 'Do': photography for one, or painting/sketching. So, what do you think? WCWSI? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:22, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've wondered about this too. I usually put it under "Do", as wildlife watching tends to be pretty active and requires focus. A wildlife watcher usually needs to control their movements, avoid making noise, and actively search with their eyes to spot the animals. It's an activity rather than a sight to see. (And as you say, it's usually combined with other activities like hiking or photography.) But I'm interested to know what others think. —Granger (talk · contribs) 19:34, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You've persuaded me to drop any doubts I had that it could be 'See'. "Watching" is more active than simply "Seeing".--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:52, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I believe we've traditionally put birdwatching in "Do" so it would make sense to have other wildlife watching in Do. Another difference between the "See" listings and watching animals is that animals aren't stationary objects. Gizza (roam) 23:11, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps traditionally, and informally, but birdwatching isn't on our list here. As long as no 'See' partisans put in an appearance in the next 24 hours, I'll add them to 'Do'. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:22, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Lacking further comments, I've gone and added these to 'Do'. Thanks for the opinions. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:48, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Repair services[edit]

Hello. I see that both Wikivoyage:Huge_city_article_template#Cope and Wikivoyage:Big_city_article_template#Cope (possibly others, but these should suffice) mention "Get computers repaired?" under "Cope". However, this is not mentioned here at "Where you can stick it", causing a minor dispute . What are everyone's thoughts on this? (@AndreCarrotflower:) --Nricardo (talk) 21:40, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

While I do agree these services are potentially useful to travellers and not just residents, one could say the same about hairdressers, dentists, tobacconists, hardware stores, newsagents, florists etc etc. But there has to be a limit on what we host here and what we leave for travellers to find by themselves. If I want a nearby computer repair shop, it doesn't even occur to me to look at a travel guide; I google it.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:52, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
While computer repair services could be required by travellers, they are not commonly required by travellers. I had an optician repair my glasses in Luxor, Egypt; I bought a cane in Quito, Peru; I had my watch repaired in Oradea, Romania; but I don't think these are common enough needs of travellers that we should list opticians, medical supply shops and watch repair shops in every city. Ground Zero (talk) 03:23, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Wholly agree. We're writing a travel guide, not a directory.
(Maybe in Akihabara or a similar destination known for a huge range of electronics-related shopping, it could make sense to list some, if there are lots of repair shops to choose from. But even that is grasping at straws.)
That text is 16 years old and dates back to the first few months of the site, and hasn't changed since. I'd say this is an oversight, and we should update those template pages to give better hints of things we actually put in the Cope section. --Bigpeteb (talk) 22:53, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Go for it, or if you prefer, suggest a form of words. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:47, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've adjusted them somewhat – hopefully an improvement. —Granger (talk · contribs) 19:12, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Admin-only protection[edit]

Protecting this page against vandalism is great, but "admins only" seems too extreme. This page doesn't have much of a history of vandalism, and there are plenty of non-admins like myself who would like to clarify information or add topics that haven't been described. (For example, I just noticed we mention almost none of the things that are typically found in Respect sections.) Can we downgrade this to a more common protection like "confirmed users"? --Bigpeteb (talk) 20:16, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Here's what the previous edit summary said:
(Protected "Wikivoyage talk:Where you can stick it": Excessive vandalism ([Edit=Allow only autoconfirmed users] (expires 21:47, 13 January 2021 (UTC)) [Move=Allow only administrators] (indefinite)))
This article is (or was) edit-protected such that only autoconfirmed users can edit it. Only admins can move it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:28, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Ikan Kekek: You're looking at the protection of the talk page (which shouldn't be protected at all!) not the main page. I agree with Bigpeteb and will reduce the protection level. —Granger (talk · contribs) 21:07, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oh. Yes, I agree too. Sorry for being confused. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:30, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See or do a mountain?[edit]

Swept in from the pub

On Wikivoyage:Where you can stick it I added mountain/hill/canyon as a kind of venue. Should a natural landmark consistently be see or do, or should it depend on the effort needed to get there? /Yvwv (talk) 21:59, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I would say on the effort to get there. If viewing it's a see, if hiking or rock climbing to the top it's a "do," but some cases can surely be put in either (but not both) and work. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:25, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Here's what I usually do:
  1. Mountain itself - see
  2. Hiking trails on the mountain - do
  3. Lookouts - see
  4. skiing (if it has one) - do
I think you get the point now. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:14, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And if there is a cable car to the lookout at the top, but it is common to hike there, you probably need to use your good judgement on where to list it or whether to split it among the two sections. –LPfi (talk) 07:25, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Many country and region articles describe natural attractions under see and outdoor activities under do; which creates some repetition. The see section tends to include architecture, museums and other venues that tend to be in cities, or other places easy to reach for a short-time visitor with few outdoor skills. I think that natural attractions outside the main thoroughfares (mountain hiking trails, safaris, roadless islands only reachable by small boats etc) should more generally be described aas do. /Yvwv (talk) 10:57, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

visitor centres – do they belong in the "see" or the "understand" section?[edit]

Swept in from the pub

This is a bit of a tricky question. WV:ABC says that visitor centres should go in the #Understand, but a large number of our park articles list them in the #See section, mostly the park articles breadcrumbed underneath the U.S.

I'm getting the feeling that whether it's a see listing or a listing that goes in the understand section is dependent on the location. Using Furnace Creek Visitor Center in Death Valley as an example, it has a museum exhibit, and museum exhibits are more of a see, which is why it was probably listed under #See while the visitor centre in Yarrangobilly Caves is no more than a gift shop and suits more in the understand section.

Going forward, making all the articles in line with policy is far too big of a change to do, so this is just a proposal to allow visitor centres to be listed in either the understand section or the see section. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:21, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see "There is a lot of deviation from site guidelines" as a reason to muddy those guidelines. I do agree that there can be logical exceptions to guidelines; you cite one. But I disagree with your proposal. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:32, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Visitor centers are almost places you go to learn things and maybe buy trinkets, but they aren't the reason you are at the location, so they are mostly a "see" "understand" thing. If you feel like the policy as such is too rigid, I don't think it would hurt to put in a caveat like "generally" or "almost always". —Justin (koavf)TCM 09:08, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You mean they mostly aren't a "See" thing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:42, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I do, thanks! —Justin (koavf)TCM 10:17, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In the southwest [U.S.], they're very much a thing to see itself as often most visitor centres have some sort of exhibit in them. In [Eastern] Australia, most parks don't have visitor centres, but some have five but I'd say about 4 in every 5 visitor centres have some sort of exhibit in them. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:55, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So change the language at where you can stick it to "the Understand section of the City or Park page, unless it is primary a sight to see in itself, in which case, the See section". Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:07, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with IK directly above (though it should read "primarily" in the published version).
Also, if SHB feels that moving the visitor centres that aren't attractions in their own right from 'See' to 'Understand' is too big of a job for him alone, I'd be happy to help out; just give us an indication of which articles are affected.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:41, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There's a fair bit of articles, but Big Bend National Park is one in particular. It's a star article and I'm reluctant to move it. (Did also start a discussion about that on Talk:Big Bend National Park#Visitor centers) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:46, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There's also the cases like this one on Mammoth Cave National Park. While it now fits policy, it makes it look like there's nothing to see. (there are the caves, but they're mentioned under #Do) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:07, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also refraining from doing it on Isle Royale National Park because that's a star article. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:19, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, I think I have been putting them under Get in, as they are common entry points to many parks, but Understand makes sense. If you think not having them in See makes that section deficient, I'd suggest pointing from there to the listing in Understand. They should often be mentioned also in Buy (and Get in, as I've been doing). I suppose the visitor centres should be mentioned in Park article template – they are usually important but could be forgotten. I think a park article shouldn't be guide without mentioning it, at least not parks where you'd like to get info on snow conditions, water levels etc. –LPfi (talk) 11:22, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@SHB2000: Why does it make a difference if they're star articles? If anything, they should be following our policies more closely, unless there's a specific reason not to.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:39, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
They should, but changes should be done with care. With an outline or week usable you can do just about anything without anybody noticing. If you break a star article, people taking them as models will get confused, and just having prose that doesn't fit well in the new context will degrade it. So yes: fix it, but fix it when you have time to think carefully, and if your skills (on language or whatever) are deficient, leave it to somebody else. –LPfi (talk) 17:27, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Then of course: fixing them is much more important than fixing outlines, as stars are taken as models. They do not need to be fixed on the minute, but should be fixed in days or weeks. –LPfi (talk)
LPfi has very much explained why I refrained from touching them... --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 20:00, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I never hesitate to improve star articles and would recommend for any experienced user not to hesitate, either. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:37, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I moved Big Bend, but haven't done Isle Royale because that article is a mess. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:16, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Ikan Kekek and ThunderingTyphoons!: How should it be done for Timpanogos Cave National Monument? It's currently a guide article, with the only see section being the visitor centre. However, if that is moved up to the understand, it will become a usable article. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:11, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'd discount that concern, as the cave is a big sight or series of sights, so "Do" could quite reasonably turned into "See and Do", but do you consider the Visitor Center more of a sight or more of a place to get information and arrange to get tours from rangers? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:00, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
My experience of "visitor centres" have been very different depending on region. Over here, I'd consider it a place to get topographic maps and route information before doing long hikes or treks, and usually a place to meet a tour guide. They often have an exhibit in them, but they are not the main purposes of the visitor centre while in the U.S., my experience has mostly been that it's a questionable mix of having an exhibit and what I would usually expect to find in a visitor centre here.
I haven't been to Timpanogos Cave before, but my feeling is that if it's more an exhibit, then it should remain a see while if it's more about information, then it should be a do while if it's a case like Naracoorte Caves National Park where its in the same building but one side is a visitor centre and the other side is a museum, listed in both. I can see the purpose of merging the two together, as sightseeing caves are more a #See (just like museums), but can also be considered a #Do. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 00:13, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Are scenic flights a see or a do?[edit]

Swept in from the pub

Title. Reason I'm asking is regarding this edit. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:51, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think that sdenicvgligyts, like boats tours, belong in "Do". Ground Zero (talk) 12:24, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Was just wondering as you see the views up from a flight so was confused. I'll add it in WV:ABC. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:27, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
All these kinds of things are "Do"s: boat tours, ballooning, scenic flights, bike tours, Segway tours, walking tours, etc. They're activities. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:02, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The key thing is that somebody is doing something. In this case the pilot is doing something, like the actors in a theatre or the football team in a stadium are doing something. (Obviously this ignores the "doing" of walking round a museum, as we usually walk without thinking about it.) AlasdairW (talk) 14:20, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure that definition cuts it. Staying overnight in a lookout to spot wildlife is a clear Do (I'd say), although you are doing little but watching (See). Watching birds might be See, but walking to a good spot and probably staying there for quite some time (to get rewarded for the effort) would be Do. Having birdwatching split between sections is suboptimal, so I'd put all of the listings in Do if most good places are a bit off, while I might tell about exotic birds in town in See, pointing to Do for those serious (where a few of the listings might be on places easily reached). What counts as Doing also depends on how you are supposed to get around. A sight 3 km uphill would be a See on a trail, but a Do in the city. Often See listings are those where you spend as much time as you like, while for Do listings you must commit. –LPfi (talk) 09:19, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@LPfi I'm not sure on the lookout thing. I generally say all lookouts are generally a see, not a do while I consider bird watching a do because you're searching for the birds. There doesn't seem to be consistency within our park articles as well. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:48, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'd still say a lookout that requires a hike is a Do, as the hike is, and it is consistent with the need to commit criterion. Lookouts on the hike are See, as they don't require any special commitment, unless you need to climb up there (such as if listing Kebnekaise as a lookout). I'd say looking for birds from a birdwatching platform is See, if the platform is at the seaside walk by the centre, but usually you have to go there (going to a museum does not count, as we don't know where you are when you want to visit). –LPfi (talk) 10:27, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Just my view, but I'd take it as the hike to the lookout to be a do and the lookout itself to be a see, which is what I've been adding in the articles I've written.
And just wondering, but would you consider a lookout that is easily accessible via car, but requires you to climb 30 metres via stairs a see or a do? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:36, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
'See'. 30 metres is not a hike, and travellers will either be able to do it or they won't.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:18, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Check the articles I linked for a "climb" and a "lookout" for what I meant by a climb on a hike (no, that one is not accessible by car). –LPfi (talk) 15:12, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'd put the 30-meter staircase (that's like climbing up to the 10th floor in a house) in the same category as visiting a church or castle where the main thing to do is to climb the stairs and look over the city or landscape. Munich/Altstadt#See lists one such church, but I don't know what's typical. I suspect, though, that readers will not be upset if we use our best guess for any given page. There might not be a single best answer that applies to every situation. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:33, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Bikesharing, food apps, and other multinational services[edit]

Swept in from the pub

I added Donkey Republic to Urban cycling. Now there is discussion about the To Good To Go budget food app. Earlier there has been discussion on the Finnish taxi call centres and electric kick scooters. With apps and web services getting ubiquitous and multinational, like the associated physical services, we face a new situation. According to policy, a business should be mentioned in just one place, but these chains are useful and often the only option, and there is no obvious place where travellers would find them. The net result might be that travellers just use what Google Maps and similar link to, making independent chains invisible.

I think it is clear that we have to mention these "chains" in a way that travellers to a city where they are a main option can find them. I don't know how to do that sensibly, without spamming a lot of pages, or getting long lists on the global pages, such as Urban cycling or Smartphone apps for travellers. Donkey Republic has a presence in the USA as well as in Europe, probably in a few dozen cities, so it doesn't fit the regional break-down. I assume many chains have the same problem.

So: what should be do?

LPfi (talk) 11:06, 2 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Long lists on global pages, if they are necessary, may be the least bad solution. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:09, 3 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:33, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]