Talk:Berlin

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Tours in "Do"[edit]

My understanding is that tours can't be listed in a place where they aren't required, except when they either involve an activity such as cycling or would be very difficult to perform on one's own (such as river tours, for which you would need to have or rent your own boat if you did it yourself). So aren't most of the tour listings in violation of Wikivoyage:Tour? Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:40, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

You are most likely right and those listings have most likely been overlooked. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:43, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
Anyone disagree? Which if any of the tours should remain listed? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:30, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
Any opinions before I plunge forward and probably delete most of these listings? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:19, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
I think the public bus lines should stay. It's a type of "common knowledge" most tourist guides treat as a "secret tip"... Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:24, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
I completely agree and was not planning on deleting that. That's totally a "self-tour". Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:16, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

[Unindent]

These tour listings have been moved here in case any of them can be established to provide "value added" under the special definition at Wikivoyage:Tour:

  • 1 Alternative Berlin. English tour starting at 11:00-13:00 each day at Alexander Platz TV tower in front of Starbucks coffee. This tour uses Berlin's transit system to cover a massive amount of territory and focuses on the underground sites and sounds of Berlin, including art & graffiti culture, technological wonders, and landmarks of rock & electronic music. The tour takes three and half hours. Free (but tipping is more or less standard - the tour guides don't receive any other salary and must pay the tour company for every person who comes on the tour).
  • Berlin City Tours. Offers a wide range of sightseeing tours and excursions by foot, bike, bus and boat. They also offer a lot of interesting activities and private arrangements on request. They also offer tours and arrangements for cruise ship passengers arriving from Rostock/Warnemuende.
  • The Berlin Experts. Offers daily in-depth walking tours of Berlin's architecture, history, and culture. All tours include some history as well as other tidbits of trivia not commonly known. Especially popular is the Deconstruction/Construction Tour which provides an offbeat perspective of contemporary Berlin. They also offer special tours for cruise ship passengers.
  • Insider Tours. Offers daily tours in English, Hebrew, Italian and Spanish as well as private tours. Also offers day trips to Dresden, Potsdam and an excursion to the Sachsenhausen Concentration Camp Memorial Site. €9.
  • Jewish Berlin. Offers a variety of specialised Jewish Heritage tours in Berlin and its vicinity. Site also includes information about Jewish life in Berlin.
  • Vive Berlin Tours. A cooperative of experienced tour guides offers several walking tours, most notably free tours to the former concentration camp Sachsenhausen and a "Third Reich Tour" that cooperates with the 1936 Olympic Stadium.
  • Admission Free Berlin. Website giving a daily overview about free sights, parties and cultural events in Berlin.
  • Berlin Greeter, e-mail: . "Berlin Greeters" are volunteers who offer free walks through their Berlin districts. Individual face-to-face encounters between "real" Berliners and Berlin visitors are central for this project (six people maximum).

Some of these tours may be very interesting, but they don't seem to conform to this site's policy on tour listings. I've left the self-tour by public bus and other listings that mention waterways or helicopters, even though it's not entirely clear all of those conform, either. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:39, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

The lede[edit]

...is not exactly world class and among the things that seems to not have been edited in a major way since the migration. I have taken a stab at it, but probably a rewrite from scratch is called for. Hobbitschuster (talk) 08:35, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

"the limited services it offers are comparable in price to gas stations."[edit]

what does this mean in the section on the ZOB? Griffindd (talk) 08:12, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

It means that there is not much on offer there, especially when compared to a train station of similar size and the prices are more in line with gas stations (i.e. high) Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:41, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

oh. that makes a bit more sense. I was thinking of services as in bus services/routes. Not sure a)"gas station" is the kind of English which is supposed to be here or that b) the comparision with gas stations will make sense to non-drivers, or people who do not drive in Germany. In any case I've rewritten the sentence, hopefully it's a bit more clear now. Griffindd (talk) 18:53, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

I'm a non-driver (I don't even have a drivers license) and German and to me the wording made sense (albeit one that sounds better could probably be found). You may however be right that gas station shop = price gouging may not be a universal concept. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:12, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Tegel Airport[edit]

So there is currently an attempt by some (among them the Berlin FDP) to keep Tegel open even after BER opens (whenever that may be). They have collected quite a number of signatures to get a measure on the ballot and it will become official on April 4th whether or not the number of signatures is enough (there are likely invalid signatures and those have to be subtracted). If and when I become aware of new developments, I'll post them here, as the issue of Tegel closing "soon" or staying open indefinitely is definitely relevant for travel. Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:48, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

So the referendum will happen but the exact date is not yet set. It's likely but not guaranteed that it will be concurrent to the federal elections. Unfortunately there is a certain incentive for opponents of the referendum's goals to have the referendum scheduled some other day as referenda are only binding if more than (I think it was 25%) of eligible voters vote yes which also have to be more than the number of people that vote no. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:51, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Call a Bike[edit]

I think the cycle hire section may be out of date. I visited Berlin last week and the "Call a Bike" cycles are now sponsored by Lidl so they are green rather than red. Also the cycles appear to be left on the street for the next user rather than at fixed hire stations (see photo - https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C6uL9k_WkAEbFZq.jpg). Can anyone confirm this please? Crookesmoor (talk) 12:45, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

I spent about 15 minutes today in Berlin (other than in U-Bahn trains or supermarkets and at the ZOB), but I can confirm that those bikes are sponsored by Lidl now and are indeed not red and while I could not see whether the point where they were was supposed to be a dedicated station, it didn't look like one. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:03, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
Some places looked like "dedicated" stations as there were several bikes arranged neatly (as in the photo above), although no docking infrastructure as in other cities (eg Santander Cycles in London). Crookesmoor (talk) 07:04, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
Update: I've updated the article and linked to the Lidl-Bike website.
Apparently, you get a 50 cent discount if you leave your bike at a station instead of just anywhere. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:36, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Listing "Downfall" ("Der Untergang") in the media set in Berlin section[edit]

So a fairly new user (on WV at least) made this addition to the list of media set in Berlin and I am not sure about it. First of all, today's Berlin thankfully looks nothing like the Berlin in the film, with many of the sites shown explicitly razed by the Allies to eliminate the potential for "Nazi pilgrimage" second of all, I don't know how much (if any) of the movie was actually shot in Berlin and not Görlitz or some other place that "looks like before the war" (or that simply offers better tax breaks). Lastly, the movie is not particularly "about Berlin" whereas all the other works are to an appreciable degree rooted in Berlin. Do you disagree? Is the list short enough to allow one entry that arguably doesn't belong? Is there any obvious omission that could or should replace it? Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:22, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Regarding the location of shooting, en-WP says "The film is set mostly in and around the Führerbunker. Hirschbiegel made an effort to accurately reconstruct the look and atmosphere of the bunker through eyewitness accounts, survivors' memoirs, and other historical sources. According to his commentary on the DVD, Der Untergang was filmed in Berlin, Munich, and in a district of Saint Petersburg, Russia with many buildings designed by German architects, which was said to resemble many parts of 1940s Berlin." whereas de-WP mentions the Munich studio shots and location shots being done in St. Petersburg but is silent on any shooting at all in Berlin. As they say in "the biz" Vancouver doesn't look like anything and apparently, Berlin is not a good enough double of itself to shoot period pieces. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:27, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

I see no reason why this movie should not be listed. While the movie is not "about Berlin" per se, the w:Battle of Berlin was one of the most important historical events that happened in the city. For that matter, I would similarly think that a good film centered on the Fire of Moscow (1812) or the fall of Constantinople (1204 or 1453), should there be any, may deserve a mention in the articles about their respective cities, even if those cities don't look much like they did in those years. -- Vmenkov (talk) 02:16, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm not convinced how relevant the movie is to visiting Berlin. I might suggest w:Sonnenallee and w:Good_Bye,_Lenin! as films with a better feel for Berlin. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:28, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
If it was the Telstra vandal who suggested this movie, that's a reason not to mention it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:24, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes it was Telstra. Removing. Andrewssi2 (talk) 09:46, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
The movies you mentioned might merit a blurb though...Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:47, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Happy for inclusion :) Andrewssi2 (talk) 21:45, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
The articles World War II in Europe and Holocaust remembrance can be used to describe Nazi destinations in a context that makes clear how terrible they were. /Yvwv (talk) 13:48, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
@Andrewssi2: I included Good Bye Lenin. Unfortunately I haven't seen Sonnenallee and thus cannot really give it a good blurb. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:32, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Too many details in this article[edit]

Is it really necessary to list that many theatres, operas, concerts and cinemas in this overview article? A limitation to the very highlights of Berlin would be a lot better in my opinion. The rest can be moved to the district articles. What do you think?--Renek78 (talk) 08:02, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

You're right, but the basic problem that I see is that there are specific listings at all. Instead, every section (in this case, the "Do" section) should be a general summary, with each specific example linked to the appropriate district article, the only place the full listings should be. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:06, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, Ikan Kekek. Gonna clean this up as soon as possible. —The preceding comment was added by Renek78 (talkcontribs)
Terrific, and thanks for your work on these articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:00, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
I completely agree that listing details should be in the appropriate district articles, and that only a short summary should be in this main page. However, I want to emphasise that an (almost) complete listing of theatre, concert and opera venues on this main page is very helpful for the traveler, since it provides a quick overview of what venues are available - and therefore where to look for events. There is not an unlimited number of these venues, so the required space won't be too large. Xsobev (talk) 09:11, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
Maybe a complete list, but I would suggest that the complete templated listings be in the appropriate district guides, though brief, usable bullet points could be left here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:41, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
I moved most of the details to the respective district listings (especially in the "Cultural events" section) and left a link to each district page. I'm not sure what to do about the wikidata, wikipedia and image details. Personally, I would remove them. On the other hand I'm tempted to leave the geo coordinates in, since it's also useful as an overview. However, getting rid of the listings template here completely, would probably be best, since then people are less likely to just fill in the details again. What do you think? Xsobev (talk) 17:55, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
Yes, I'd definitely remove the templates. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:47, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
I'm happy to do this. For future reference for myself and other users, do you know of a page in the wiki that explains/justifies these changes? Also what about the geo coordinates? Should they be left in (via a marker template). The same question goes for the URLs. Thanks, Xsobev (talk) 13:22, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Ok, the most appropriate and detailed explanation I found is here: Wikivoyage:Huge_city_article_template#See. It doesn't say anything about geo coordinates or URLs, but it's very clear about not using listings. Xsobev (talk) 12:42, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Sorry for not getting back to you on this, and thanks for doing this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:05, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Editing Berlin for clarity, flow, tone and lack of duplications[edit]

Swept in from the pub

So I have written quite a bit of what are currently the top sections of Berlin (i.e. understand and so on). However, it has some problems with mentioning similar things more than once and some others. If you feel like doing some copy-editing for flow and whatnot and trying to expunge some crypto-Germanisms, be my guest. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:14, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

No takers? Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:11, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

To Guide and DotM[edit]

Given that none of the District articles below this one is currently rated below usable, the first formal criterion for promotion to guide is met. What else would have to be done to get it there? Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:02, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

For guide status not much more I'd say, but per comments on the nominations page there are a little bit too much bullet points, and See and Do have listings that should be moved to the district articles instead. --ϒpsilon (talk) 19:08, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Redrawing (some) districts?[edit]

Have a look at articles like Berlin/South or Berlin/East Central - they appear to be quite full of attractions and there appear to be somewhat plausible ways of subdividing them. Should we consider this? Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:16, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

appear to be a reasonable size for me at the moment. --Traveler100 (talk) 19:18, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
Well our "South" district is - as we sorta acknowledge - not exactly a "natural" or "homogeneous" division of any sort. It is perhaps a result of those areas being less touristed and us thus putting them all together into one. And East Central mostly consists of Kreuzberg-Friedrichshain where at least one dividing line seems beyond obvious. So it's not like there aren't potential lines along which to split them up. And I think their maps do look rather crowded. How many listings would you consider too many and how many would you consider too few? Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:11, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

I have raised the issue at Talk:Berlin/South Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:05, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Public transit maps[edit]

I have maps for all types of public transit in Berlin except bus, but they are topographic maps, which show the lines in the form they actually have rather than the stylized maps one is more likely to find in brochures. Both types absolutely have their uses and right to exist, but I think we should have one "as many lines as we can" map that is a stylized representation. Unfortunately, perusing commons there seem to only be maps which include U- and S-Bahn but not Tram or Bus and the Regional trains, which have some use for covering larger distances don't seem to appear on anything but the maps for how BER will be served some time in the year twenty-five-twenty-five. Does any of y'all have a good idea? Hobbitschuster (talk) 09:05, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

The brainless saga of Berlin Airports, part infinity[edit]

Swept in from the pub

So as you may or may not know, the long awaited political earthquake that was German elections took place on Sunday. On that same day, there also was a referendum on whether to keep open Tegel airport. Now for background: I bought a plane ticket in 2012 that already had an airport listed as the destination that does not yet exist (instead I flew to Tegel) and the mayor of Berlin was Eberhard Diepgen, the chancellor of Germany was Helmut Kohl and the guy in charge of Brandenburg was godknowswho, when all those people and a few others agreed on the following: Berlin gets a new airport. All remaining airports shut down at the latest half a year after the new airport opens. Until this new airport opens, there are to be no major investments in airports that will be shut down regardless. Now the FDP (if you're American, think Libertarians) has been struggling and together with Ryanair and car rental companies, they launched a collection of signatures to put a measure on the ballot "urging" the government of Berlin to "do whatever it takes" to keep Tegel open even way beyond its best before date. Of course Berlin cannot unilaterally go against what was agreed two decades ago by three different governments, the current mayor of Berlin thinks keeping Tegel open is a phenomenally stupid idea, and keeping Tegel open requires major state money to be spent - which should be anathema for the tax-cut party that is FDP. At any rate, roughly 55% of those voting in Berlin voted for the whatever it is that it actually says, and now the city government is officially bound to abide by the non binding text of the ballot measure that does not even propose a law of any kind. The travel related bottom line is likely to be, that Berlin will continue to have two airports for some time. Maybe even after BER (the new airport) opens. Or not. Who on earth knows? There'll likely be court cases. And in court and on the high seas, Zeus only knows what will happen. The outgoing (federal elections, remember) minister of transportation said days before the vote that "he could imagine" Tegel remaining open, but he has already taken on a job within his party caucus, which is next to never held concurrently with one in cabinet. Nobody knows what will happen next, but given the traffic figures and the somewhat unique design of Tegel, do we at long last need an airport article on it? Even in the face of it possibly shutting down anyway? Or even being forced to shut down before BER opens (which would be some glorious historic irony)? What would we do with the article were Tegel to shut down? At any rate, I tried to do the developing slow motion train wreck (or rather plane crash) justice on the Berlin page, but my obvious bias may have seeped through. If you have questions, I probably know more about the subject than I would like to... Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:46, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

Is Tegel or BER of much importance for travellers? Everyone I know (all North Americans or people employed in Asia) who wanted to visit Germany flew to either Amsterdam or Frankfurt. Is it different from within Europe? Did I just miss a possibility? Pashley (talk) 19:28, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
Berlin is unique in being an important international capital city without a significant international airport (owing mostly to the division of the country during the GDR years and the gravity of Frankfurt being the gateway to Germany).
Fixing the Berlin airport situation seems both important and very problematic, but ultimately the background isn't important for travelers to Berlin. Andrewssi2 (talk) 00:24, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
The situation with an important capital with a comparatively insignificant airport is not that unique (think Canberra and Ottawa). We need to keep the article up to date, there's not much else we can do. If TXL shuts down and you can't fly to Berlin, we need to put in a caution box that travelers have to fly to Frankfurt, Hamburg, Munich or some of the small budget airline airports in northern Germany. ϒpsilon (talk) 05:50, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
But in all the other cases of an important country with second class airports in its capital (to which South Africa might be added, where Pretoria is not exactly home to the biggest airport), the capital is actually a fairly "minor" city by comparison. Berlin is the biggest city and if we were to judge by metro areas, Ruhr does not exactly contain a major airport, either. That said, Air Berlin (which is now bankrupt and in the process of godknowswhat) did have a fairly extensive network through Tegel, which they intended to move to BER (said move not having occurred being among the cited reasons for the bankruptcy). TXL as of 2016 figures has roughly above 20 million pax per annum. A third of FRA, but certainly in the range of some airports for which WV does have articles. Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:28, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
Düsseldorf has a massive airport and is close to the Ruhr, so there's probably little motivation to build any large airport in the Ruhr region proper. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:31, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
Frankfurt Airport isn't too far away, either. Overall, Germany has too many airports (especially too many small town airports that think two flights a week to Antalya are worth millions in subsidies), but I digress. At any rate, should we create an article on Berlin Tegel Airport? And if so, what should be done if and when it shuts down? I think we should create and article on the BER if (when?) it opens, though... Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:47, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure Tegel needs an article. It's really quite simple to go through security there, it's a smallish airport that's easy to walk around and understand, and I'm unsure transportation to Berlin can't just be dealt with in the Berlin article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:34, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
I flew to Tegal once (from Munich), and have to say an interesting airport. Not sure it merits an Airport article though. Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:42, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

Location of the zoo[edit]

Hi all, the two listings in "See" regarding the zoo (Berlin Zoo and Aquarium) should be moved to their appropriate district page. But which is the best one? According to the dynamic district map the listings belong to Berlin/Mitte, but for the traveler it would make more sense to have them in the same district page as the S+U+train station Zoologischer Garten, which would be in Berlin/City West. Xsobev (talk) 15:36, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

For now, I merged them with the existing listings in Berlin/Mitte. Xsobev (talk) 15:25, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Inconsistent use and translation of "Ortsteil" and "Bezirk"[edit]

So Berlin is divided administratively into twelve "Bezirke" which are each further subdivided into numerous "Ortsteile". The articles on Berlin and its WV districts unfortunately use the terms at random in their untranslated German form or translating them variously as "borough", "district" or other terms. I think we should be consistent with the usage of terms and maybe even mention it somewhere. Which terms do you think best? Hobbitschuster (talk) 04:09, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Districts from outline to usable[edit]

Shouldn't Berlin/Tempelhof and Neukölln, Berlin/Treptow-Köpenick and Berlin/Steglitz-Zehlendorf be at least "{{usabledistrict}}"? Xsobev (talk) 11:41, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

If you think so. I didn't want unilaterally upgrade their status Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:27, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
User:Ibaman went ahead and did the change, so it seems that in total 3 people agreed with it. Xsobev (talk) 13:22, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Copyedits[edit]

I have tried to remove words that just take up space without conveying any meaning to the reader. This makes our writing more active and easier to understand. Here are some example:

  • "arguably" -- as the post-truth era we live in showing, anyone can argue anything. This site and this site prove my point. As WV:WTA says, "Seems to be, might, possibly, could and other indicators of speculation: We don't deal in speculation - either verify that the situation is indeed so, or don't say so. Speculation seems to be unhelpful for most travelers who might possibly be confused by it." "Arguably" fits into that category. If we're not willing to stand behind the statement, it shouldn't be there.
  • 1 "Technically speaking even first time fare-dodging is a criminal offense, but it rarely goes to court unless for repeat offenders." -- 2 "First-time fare-dodging is a criminal offence, but it rarely goes to court unless for repeat offenders." The second version says exactly the same thing, with fewer words, and without giving the impression that the criminality is just a technicality. It is criminal, it's just that you're likely to get away with it. The extra words do not make it clearer, but obscure the meaning.
  • "Due to complicated factors..." -- so, we're not going to tell the reader here what the reasons are, just that there are reasons. This is unnecessary -- just direct them to the infobox where they can find more info if they are interested.
  • "That said" - the classic filler line. The reader knows that this has been said and doesn't need to be told that. WV:OBVIOUS. If you want to use a word to show that you are making a counterpoint, "however" does the trick nicely and concisely.
  • "ultimately" - an overused filler word that isn't necessary when the sequence of events is clear from the sentence structure, which it should always be if you write the sentence clearly, which we should always do.

Clear writing puts the reader first. Adding in extra words and excessive emphasis is about making the writer feel that what he or she is writing is important. Let's put the reader first. Ground Zero (talk) 19:44, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

@Hobbitschuster: The Collins Dictionary identifies as synonyms for "arguably": possibly, potentially, conceivably, plausibly, so it falls into the list of speculative words that are WV:words to avoid. Ground Zero (talk) 20:19, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

As there has been no response to my comments, I have implemented them.

In so doing, I noticed that the Understand section was in need of a re-write to correct comma splices, and to break up long sentences into more digestible ones. A travel guide should aim to be easier to read than, say, James Joyce's Dubliners. Joining a whole bunch of ideas with "and" and neglecting to use commas and other appropriate punctuation does the readers no favours. I have taken a fairly thorough run through this section to improve readability. I ask that these edits not be reverted wholesale without a discussion beforehand. My edits also corrected punctuation and grammatical errors, so a wholesale revert would restore these errors, in addition to making the action more difficult to read.

I am happy, of course, to discuss any edits here on the talk page. Ground Zero (talk) 03:26, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

@Hobbitschuster: reverting another contributor's edits without comment and without explanation is, as I've pointed out to you before, unacceptable behaviour. If you disagree with my edits, discuss them. I have explained above, I am willing to discuss any of my edits. You should understand by now that you Connor own this article.
Most of the edits you reverted were breaking up unnecessarily long sentences that made the article more difficult to read. You have restored many capitalisation errors. If this article is going to be featured on the main page as Destination of the Month, it should not be written in a convoluted way, and it should not have grammatical, capitalisation and punctuation errors. Ground Zero (talk) 12:10, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
I have posted a notice in the pub to invite other contributors to comment on these edits. Ground Zero (talk) 13:21, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
I find it a bit strange that lack of response either way somehow constitutes an endorsement of your position in your mind... I also dislike your tendency to shorten for the sake of shortening. Quite often what results us simply a different sentence, often one that is quite frankly wrong. Given that I cannot recall you ever participating in the Berlin district discussions, not even the last one, I must assume your knowledge of Berlin is in the limited side so when you introduce changes that make things wrong your likely unaware. I apologize for using the rollback button as indeed there may have been useful stuff mixed in with the problematic... Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:40, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply. I took your silence as a lack of willingness to engage in discussion. Now that you're here, I am happy to work together to make further improvements to the article. I do shorten things where I think that the same thing can be said in fewer words. If there are some edits where I misunderstood the meaning, let's clarify. Restoring the previous version that I misunderstood because it was unclear is not a good approach. Let's find a clearer way of saying it. If that version is shorter, do much the better, but clarity is what we should be aiming for. Repetition and overemphasis, however, are not necessary for clarity. If something can be said clearly once, then we should assume that the reader has got it. Ground Zero (talk) 13:50, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
Also,I will note your invitation above: "If you feel like doing some copy-editing for flow and whatnot and trying to expunge some crypto-Germanisms, be my guest." I've done so, and I apologise for the 15-month delay in accepting your invitation. Ground Zero (talk) 15:55, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

An example[edit]

As the criticism of my copyediting has been only general so far, I'm providing a concrete example for illustrative purposes:

Old version - one sentence that describes the movements, its leader, and his death:

"This movement - often simply known as "die 68er" (the 68ers) - had several hotspots in Germany, but it was most prominent in Berlin and its leader Rudi Dutschke (and East German emigrant from Brandenburg) was shot in Berlin in 1968 surviving but ultimately dying of a seizure caused by the wounds in 1979."

New version: - three sentences:

"This movement - often simply known as "die 68er" (the 68ers) - had several hotspots in Germany, but it was most prominent in Berlin. Its leader Rudi Dutschke (an East German emigrant from Brandenburg) was shot in Berlin in 1968. He survived the shooting, but died of a seizure caused by the wounds in 1979."

Which is easier to follow? Ground Zero (talk) 15:51, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

New version is already an improvement, but an even better version would remove the combination of — and ():
"This movement known as "the 68ers" had several hotspots in Germany, but was most prominent in Berlin. (...)" ArticCynda (talk) 16:04, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
Got it. I have many are some further adjustments. Ground Zero (talk) 19:05, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Eight "highlights" - all in a single district[edit]

So a recent edit added mapmarkers for eight "highlight" see listings. However, they are all in Berlin/Mitte, which might give the (wrong) impression that this is the only district with anything worth seeing... Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:56, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Further copyedits[edit]

  1. Immigrants come from other countries. People who move within a country are migrants. Also we shouldn't use "scare quotes". They imply a meaning that may not be clear to the reader. We should be clear.
  2. "due to its insular geography surrounded by East Germany" is missing a word or two, but it's not clear what it/they are. This can be written more simply and clearly. "because it was surrounded by East Germany" is simple, and clear.
  3. "in the almost three decades since reunification" -- don't use relative descriptions of time as they become out of date. I've replaced this by "since reunification in 1990".
  4. As noted above, "ultimately" adds no meaning here. It was restored without discussion, just adding length and boring the readers. As much as we like the sound of our own writing, let's not be boring.

I am happy to discuss these edits with a view to improving these parts of the article further. Ground Zero (talk) 05:47, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Berlin[edit]

Swept in from the pub

I would appreciate the views of others editors on these edits to Berlin. User: Hobbitschuster reverted my edits without comment, marking the massive rollback of my copyediting as a "minor edit". S/he provided no comment, and did not respond to my invitation to discuss previous edits that s/he reverted on the talk page. Hobbitschuster's appalling behaviour aside, I'd like to know what other contributors think of these edits. My aim was to make the article more readable by breaking up long, rambling sentences, and to fix punctuation and capitalisation errors. Do other contributors agree or disagree with these edits? Hobbitschuster has not explained why s/he objects to this. Ground Zero (talk) 12:17, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Long sentences vs. multiple smaller ones is just a linguistic preference in my opinion, but your copy editing indeed fixed numerous errors that should not have been reverted. Regardless, undoing such a massive amount of work should not be without good argumentation. If User: Hobbitschuster continues to refuse justification of his/her rollback, the corrected article should be reinstated. ArticCynda (talk) 12:45, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
S/he has provided a comment on the talk page, so we can begin to work together to improve the article further. The sentences I edited did run on, often without even a comma to indicate where one thought ended and another began, and sometimes with additional thoughts in parentheses. While we assume readers have a certain reading ability, I expect that many of our readers are reading in their second or third language, so complex sentence structures do not put the travellers first. Ground Zero (talk) 13:55, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
Well nobody has said that the sentences were so horribly horrible on the DotM discussion or during the recent discussions on what to do with Berlin/East Central (hey, ArticCynda, do you want to include a huge fat warning box about Neukölln or Marzahn? In the case of Neukölln, w:Heinz Buschkowsky, former district mayor would likely agree with you that it is a horrible no-good place where zombies will rip you to pieces). Perhaps that was because neither of you to my recollection participated in said debates? At any rate, I'll go enjoy the nice weather now, maybe later I'll have something more to say. Have a nice day. Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:03, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
@Hobbitschuster: nobody said the text was horrible, but that doesn't mean it can't be further improved. As for the strange reference to Neukölln, I don't know the area well enough to voice any opinion on it, so it might be worthwhile considering following the former mayor's point of view — who likely is well informed about the problems in certain neighborhoods. ArticCynda (talk) 14:14, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
Is our aim to write in a way that is not so horribly horrible? Or is it to write in a way that is conversational and informal? I'm sticking with the latter. Enjoy the nice weather, HS. This discussion will wait. Ground Zero (talk) 15:40, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

I don't know the details of the edits so don't intend to wade in, but I would like to say two things. Firstly, try to remember we're all on the same team, trying to do our very best for Wikivoyage and our readers. Let's all respect each other and keep the tone civil.

Secondly, and in Hobbit's defence, all rollbacks are automatically marked as minor edits across all WMF wikis. This is not something which can be changed, and not something to take offence over.

Best wishes to all of you, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:53, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

One could still exercise caution and not use the rollback function when an edit needs some explanation (just as a general remark, I haven't studied the article history). I also have understood Germans in general use longer sentences than the rest of us, so what looks reasonably sentence structure by German eyes may not be by (e.g.) US standards. Which just means assuming good faith is important also in this case. --LPfi (talk) 18:44, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
When using the undo/rollback function, one can still add a comment in the "Summary" box, and in my opinion this should generally be done (definitely in the above mentioned edit). This helps both the affected user and everyone else to understand why the revert was done. Then the edit can either be discussed based on provided reasons, or one can learn from an editing error. Generally, I'm also for simplifying text for easier understanding. Such edits of course should preserve the general meaning. On a more technical note: The edit in question covers a large part of the page, and splitting it into several smaller edits (for example by smallest section or paragraph level) will avoid technical edit conflicts and will make reverting possible at a more fine-grained level. Finally, I strongly agree with User:ThunderingTyphoons!'s comment, that "... we're all on the same team ..." Xsobev (talk) 08:42, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
The 'undo' button prompts for an edit summary and allows the user to edit the page before saving; 'rollback' does not as it's intended as a means for administrators to undo an edit (or series of edits by the same user to the same page) with a single click. That just leaves the canned summary "Reverted edits by User:SoandSo to last revision by User:AnotherVoyager" or some such. K7L (talk) 14:31, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification - I didn't know such a one-click admin rollback existed. Xsobev (talk) 09:42, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
Xsobev, I did in fact make four edits, all of which were rolled back, but I agree that it would have been better to edit section-by-section or paragraph-by-paragraph. I will try to remember to do that going-forward. There is no question that we are on the same team here -- I would never question Hobbitschuster's commitment and contributions to Wikivoyage. Ground Zero (talk) 14:58, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
Great! I didn't have any doubts on your side in this case; I felt your edit was dismissed in an unconstructive manner. Xsobev (talk) 09:42, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Berlin in popular culture – "The Kangaroo Chronicles" – looks like SPAM to me[edit]

I think the section on "The Kangaroo Chronicles" within Berlin#Berlin_in_popular_culture should get shortened drastically. I don't think it adds a lot of value to this lemma, if "The Kangaroo Chronicles" gets extended more and more. --Johayek (talk) 12:03, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

We don't tend to use the word "lemma" on wikivoyage. And I am not exactly sure what you are proposing... Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:04, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
I proposed (you will find that easily, if you really try): "should get shortened drastically" – i.e. remove most of it, e.g. so that is has a size comparable to the other entries in the same list.--Johayek (talk) 13:08, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
A lot of the word count (which imho is often a lazy measure of importance, but whatever) is mentioning that the author lives and works in Berlin and you can check out his stuff life. I think this is of relevance to a travel guide. But please, propose a shortened text. Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:23, 8 October 2018 (UTC)