Wikivoyage:Votes for undeletion/Archives

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It may occur from time to time that we delete an article by mistake -- that is, that the article doesn't actually meet the standards for deleting articles listed on the VFD page. In this case, a Wikivoyager should link to the page on this page, with an explanation of why the deletion wasn't in accordance with our deletion policy. Articles and images are still considered guilty until proven innocent. After fourteen (14) days of discussion, if a nomination is uncontested or a consensus arises that the page was deleted unnecessarily, then an administrator should reinstate the page. Otherwise, the page will stay deleted.

See also: votes for deletion and Votes for undeletion

Image:Nativity Monk.JPG[edit]

  • So. I do not accept the deletion of this image, and I would like anybody who is still in favor of deleting it — currently only Nils? — to a) explain exactly what they find objectionable, and b) suggest how to fix it. (WT-en) Jpatokal 12:46, 8 Oct 2004 (EDT)
    • Firstly, there wasn't consensus to keep the picture, which is the standard we have for v.f.d. I count 3 people (myself, Colin, Nils) who said to delete it, and 3 (you, Hans, and Pierre) who said to keep it. (I archived the v.f.d. discussion at Image talk:Nativity Monk.JPG.) The main problem is that it is a picture of a person, which is contrary to our image use policy. In addition, the photographer doesn't have a verbal or written model release, which violates the privacy rights of the model. You've put forward the argument that the person is not recognizable, but I think that's not the case (it's a caucasian male, early 30s, about 5'8" or so, dark brown hair, full beard, average complexion). It's beside the point, in any event, since there's nothing in our policy that says it's OK to have people if they're not recognizable. The monk is very clearly the subject of the picture -- he didn't accidentally walk in the way as the photographer was shooting those two loudspeakers, a short stairway, and 1/8th of an arch. Needless to say, the image name suggests that the monk is the subject. Another point is that he's engaged in an extremely private activity -- prayer -- and was not part of any group (a concert, a protest). Finally, I don't think the photo has particular travel relevance -- travellers aren't going to be able to go to that church and find that same monk praying, anyways. It's a really great photograph, but it's just not appropriate for an Open Content travel guide. The photographer may be able to avoid a privacy rights lawsuit if his lawyer makes a good argument before a judge, but this isn't a court of law. This is a collaborative project, and the entire group has to agree that publishing this picture is worth the risk, however small. I, for one, think it's not. To fix it, I'd suggest using an actual photo of the church in question, without people in it, or if needed a crowd scene which doesn't focus on a particular person. [On a personal note, I want you to know that the deletion of this picture does not in any way signal a lack of appreciation for your excellent work on Wikivoyage. You are one of the best and most dedicated people here, and your very generous donation of high-quality photographs has raised the visual standard of Wikivoyage several notches. I hope you understand that making exceptions in the rules based on who makes the contribution is a very slippery slope.] --(WT-en) Evan 13:37, 8 Oct 2004 (EDT)
    • I prefer this stay deleted. First, it has some hypothetical legal risk (as I mentioned in vfd). Second, it's helpful to be consistent with policy. Third, I don't see this as a "must have" image since people don't go to Bethlehem because it has a pretty chapel — so I don't feel willing to accept risks to keep it. It's nice, but the article will be fine without it (unlike, for example, Image:Okayama Castle Hilltop.JPG which is extremely illustrative of the location and jaw-dropping gorgeous to boot). -- (WT-en) Colin 14:50, 8 Oct 2004 (EDT)
I think all the controversy and back and forth over the ethical/legal aspects of showing the person should just be gently pushed aside by the practical issues, just to get out of deadlock. This photo is currently not used in any article, it doesn't recognizably depict any specific travel destination, nor do I think it even shows a unique "slice of life" of the culture/destination it depicts. I don't think anyone could, just by looking at the photo, even place the continent it's from. There is certainly nothing objectionable to it. It's an excellent photo, with good composition and interesting matter, but it's just not a travel photo. Delete. -- (WT-en) Paul Richter 21:26, 8 Oct 2004 (EDT)
Um, it is used by Bethlehem and (IMHO) represents a pretty darn good summary of what the town is about. Some strange bug (probably due to reuploading the file under the same name) prevents it from being listed as a link though. (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:18, 9 Oct 2004 (EDT)

Anyway, while I still disagree with the reasoning above, at least there's some consensus against now and I'll bow to it gracefully. But before I shut up, y'all will have to pick a new image to replace Mr. Monk from here:

http://jpatokal.iki.fi/photo/travel/Palestine/Bethlehem/

My favorites are this and this but somehow I doubt those will pass privacy police scrutiny either. This is postcard-y but gives the wrong impression (nobody goes to Bethlehem for the mosques). This is a nice picture but doesn't really say very much... this and this are uglier but give some idea (and hey, the church is ugly too). Or maybe just this or that for that warm and fuzzy "Welcome to Bethlehem!" feeling. (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:18, 9 Oct 2004 (EDT)

OK, I think we can easily agree on this one: Elvis Sheik!! Seriously, I think some of the Old Town or Manger Square scenes would be good if you have some that aren't as politically charged. --(WT-en) Paul Richter 04:06, 9 Oct 2004 (EDT)
Unfortunately the King was spotted not in Bethlehem, but in the legendary Elvis Diner on the Tel Aviv-Jerusalem highway... a destination in itself, I might add. But "not politically charged" is a pretty tough call for an occupied war zone in these days of intifada, the last time I visited (Apr 2003) I traveled by armored car. And the pics in the link above are all I have. (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:19, 9 Oct 2004 (EDT)

St.Joakim Osogovski Monastery[edit]

  • Undelete. We reached the consensus that monastery can be an exemption for what constitutes an article. Windhorse (I believe) was working on this article. - Sapphire.
  • I deleted this one - there was one vote in favor of keeping it on the Project:Votes for deletion and several against. The article itself had no content other than a vfd notice, despite it having been on the site for a few weeks. Also, I don't see anything on Project:What is an article? saying that this particular monastery should be kept or should not be listed as an attraction. If we need an article for this monastery in the future it can be re-created, but until then I think it was properly deleted and should stay that way. -- (WT-en) Ryan 02:52, 19 April 2006 (EDT)
  • Yeah, this kind of looks like a fair deletion. Monasteries can be articles sometimes, but it wasn't clear that this one was. --(WT-en) Evan 02:55, 19 April 2006 (EDT)
I've never actually seen this article, so I don't know how great it was, but I came across a conversation on this article with someone asking us to keep it. I figured I'd throw it up here in case an error was made. It's not possible to see what it looked like prior deletion, right? (WT-en) Sapphire 02:58, 19 April 2006 (EDT)
Nevermind. I didn't read Ryan's note. If there was nothing on it then void my asking for the "undeletion." (WT-en) Sapphire 03:00, 19 April 2006 (EDT)

Freiburg i. Br.[edit]

Was not VFD'd, yet Google reports "about 1,320,000" hits, and was (and still is) linked to from Baden Württemberg. Valid abbreviation for Freiburg im Breisgau, should be a redirect to Freiburg. ~ 58.8.2.182 15:06, 18 June 2007 (EDT)

Outcome: Recreated as Redirect to Freiburg --(WT-en) Nick 05:05, 29 February 2008 (EST)

Pereira[edit]

This page was not VFD'd. It was deleted @ 01:38, 20 December 2007 and then Pereira (Colombia) was moved to Pereira @ 01:39, 20 December 2007. At the time of deletion it was a disambiguation page. I have no objection to it being undeleted as Pereira (disambiguation). ~ 203.144.143.4 01:30, 20 December 2007 (EST)

  • So what goes on here? Looks like it's been re-created via a move. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 11:42, 1 January 2008 (EST)
Yes, that's exactly what the VFU says. First the move needs to be undone, and then the deletion. ~ 61.7.183.208 03:57, 5 January 2008 (EST)

Ferries in the Mediterranean[edit]

We need information on ferries around Mediterranean (or at least between the key destinations in Greece), and Ferries in the Mediterranean was the first attempt to gather such info that I can remember at Wikivoyage.

Earlier we have removed an extlink to a third-party source of schedules and routes available for Greece alone (see Talk:Greece#ferry schedule and routes). But if we also don't allow such info to be gathered by Wikivoyageers--and we don't have an official one-stop source for such info, it's quite strange for me.

I did travel around Greek islands, and it was really a nightmare to find any online source of information that give enough information even for my individual route--and yes, finally I turned to Lonely Planet (which helped a bit, but did not allow to complete my task).

It's really pity for me that I couldn't vote to keep it earlier, so I vote for undeletion.

VFD discussion can be found here: Project:Votes_for_deletion/September_2007#List_of_ferries. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 17:24, 2 February 2008 (EST)

I've gone over the original VFD discussion and still have the same main concern. We do not need a useless list of contacts.
If you are however willing to put in the effort to turn this into a real travel topic then I'll definitely support an Undelete. I do think this can be useful provided that it does not try to be overly detailed, i.e. specifying the departure times of each and every ferry from each and every port is not a good idea since those are subject to frequent changes that will never be updated in WT.
You might also want do consider a rename if this is undeleted. Ferries in the Mediterranean invites people to turn it into an ugly long list, something like Travel the Mediterranean by Ferry suggest that there should be more to the article. --(WT-en) Nick 02:00, 7 February 2008 (EST)

Outcome: Undeleted --(WT-en) Nick 05:01, 29 February 2008 (EST)

I'm happy to see that the page I started a year ago, which was deleted, is revived again. -- (WT-en) Eiland 13:32, 6 July 2008 (EDT)

Trollstigen[edit]

I'm still not sure whether this should have been deleted (I nominated it), and I'm not sure exactly what to do with it. But I just noticed it's one of the nine "other destinations" on the country page for Norway. That gives me additional pause. Anyway, I'll just leave this vfu up here and see if anyone has any good ideas. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 02:10, 11 August 2008 (EDT)

Actually, I'm going to give a firm Undelete. Trollstigen, as I understand it, is a road leading through a fjord of the same name. We have plenty of other pages for fjords, and treat them as regions. I think we could convert this one pretty easily. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 02:35, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
Comment: It looks like there never was a followup on this. If you can turn this into a region article easily, I support you in undeleting this article. Is there an easy way to do that? Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:29, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Several Copyright Violations[edit]

All the above were deleted on or about 26 February 2009 by User:(WT-en) Peterfitzgerald with the comment copyvio. While I applaude efforts to rid Wikivoyage of spam, I think these deletions need discussion. The articles are probably valid as names (bar one on the basis of capitalisations) but are merely orphaned pages that are copyright violations. I thought we preferred to fix rather than delete such articles. An attention grabbing template is called Template:Copyvio and articles could be tagged this way rather than being deleted on sight - unless there is a website take down law in effect that now requires us to take down copyright violations pre-emptively before the website needs to be taken down - which I understand is about to happen here in New Zealand.... We could at least replace the bad articles with empty templates. - (WT-en) Huttite 09:09, 25 February 2009 (EST)

No need to go through process on this one; just "speedy undelete," remove the text that was there (it's all copyrighted), and integrate it into our geographical hierarchy. I deleted them in part to save time cleaning up the copyvios (going through each subsection and deleting text takes longer), and as an attention-getter for the user. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 09:33, 25 February 2009 (EST)
Deleting them is an easy way to get rid of the copyright-violating text and excise it from the history. If someone wishes to recreate them with a template, I see no reason not to. (WT-en) LtPowers 10:45, 25 February 2009 (EST)
Albacete and Trujillo (Spain) have both been recreated by the original user, complete with all the copyright violating text, all over again. What policy says we should be deleting the specific edits containing copyright violations? Because if there isn't one, we should be restoring the origial edits too. Though if there is one then we should be deleting those edits consistently - which we are not doing at present. - (WT-en) Huttite 04:49, 28 February 2009 (EST)
I don't understand what you mean by "restoring the [original] edits". (WT-en) LtPowers 13:31, 28 February 2009 (EST)
What's the status of the other proposed undeletions that are currently red-linked? Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:32, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
I think the verdict on these is that people can re-create them if they want, but that there's no sense in restoring the original copyvios. --Peter Talk 19:40, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Xcaret, Mexico[edit]

Maybe Xcaret is a privately-owned park, but it is also a natural area in Mexico's southeast. It has all the facilities to be considered a park. I did this page cause I think many people looks for it. In fact, spanish version doesn't have any problem, but editors of english version of Wikivoyage want to delete it. I would want to know why if Disneyland has its own page, Xcaret can't. Because Disney is also a privately-owned park, and instead, Xcaret has very different purposes, such as nature preservation, and it is in fact an ecopark, a Wikivoyage pages cathegory. The text is mine, photos are mine, so I can't find a reason to delete it. —The preceding comment was added by 187.141.78.194 (talkcontribs) .


Discussion here: Project:Votes for deletion/October 2008#Xcaret (WT-en) LtPowers 19:27, 1 September 2009 (EDT)
^ previous discussion, please don't edit that page.
One of the general rules for parks is that they don't get their own page if you can't sleep there. Xcarat is a day-trip destination with the only lodging offsite. By comparison, DW is a large complex with sleeping on-site; it occupies a strange middle ground between "park" and "small city" rarely found elsewhere. Generally the parks template is for something more like Glacier National Park. As it is, Xcarat hardly seems to merit an entire article of its own even if you could sleep there -- it reads much more like a promo brochure at the moment.
Also, there is no Xcarat page on the Spanish Wikivoyage: [1]. There may be one on Wikipedia, but that is a different site with different goals and has no bearing on this discussion. - (WT-en) Dguillaime 13:36, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
  • Redirect (as has already been done). Looking at http://www.xcaret.com/ this place is either a resort or a theme park, and thus doesn't meet the criteria set forth Project:What is an article. We make exceptions occasionally, but given the vast amount of resort spam we end up dealing with for Cancun I think the bar needs to be a bit higher as to why one particular resort there deserves its own article. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 13:50, 2 September 2009 (EDT)

Grundy[edit]

I was about to move Grundy, Virginia (Buchanan County) to Grundy and noticed it had previously been speedily deleted by (WT-en) OldPine on 31 May 2008. However, I cannot find any deletion discussion, so since the article has been recreated I am undeleting the original article version too. -- (WT-en) Huttite 08:00, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

Plainville[edit]

Plainville was deleted without discussion. - (WT-en) Huttite 18:10, 11 January 2010 (EST)

I totally agree, Huttite. Thank you! whr2 peetrfitzgerald and sertmann way off. --72.87.62.96 18:16, 11 January 2010 (EST)
There is a long-standing precedent of discouraging page creation vandalism through the use of speedy deletes. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 18:19, 11 January 2010 (EST)
We all know this by now, Ryan. --72.87.62.96 18:21, 11 January 2010 (EST)
User talk:Peterfitzgerald/Archives_2009#pcv.3F --(WT-en) Peter Talk 18:22, 11 January 2010 (EST)
There may be precedent that is discussed on the talk page, but the speedy deletion procedure for page creation vandalism that is discussed on the talk page has not been written into the deletion policy. I was following the policy, which asks for at least a simple check that the page could potentially be a destination. I must admit I too was initially suspected that Plainville was merely vandalism, but when I checked Wikipedia, and did a google search, I was most surprised to discover it was not just one real place but several places, in two different countries, on two different continents! The name alone probably makes it a tourist destination. I concluded that the article was a likely destination and created a disambiguation page. To then discover the original page had been deleted from underneath me was most annoying, so I saved my work, restored the original contribution, to be fair to the original contributor, and challenged the deletion here. - (WT-en) Huttite 04:53, 12 January 2010 (EST)
I agree. I think "pages created with no intention of adding actual content to them" may be a valid speedy criterion, but it needs to be written into policy. Having the procedure questioned by every new user who notices it, thus forcing the wise veteran sages who implemented the pseudo-policy have to continually link to pcv, is inefficient and somewhat baffling. (WT-en) LtPowers 09:04, 12 January 2010 (EST)
Nonsense. Reverting trolling is about as straightforward a policy and practice as we have. All that should be needed to coordinate administrative efforts in dealing with trolling is to link to the history of this trolling, the discussions that established how we deal with it. The point of this trolling is to waste our time, and it is as successful as we collectively are stupid. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 11:09, 12 January 2010 (EST)
It's straightforward for those who recognize the trolling. But it's not obvious to the novice and a simple note in the policy document would be a concise way to reflect current consensus. (WT-en) LtPowers 13:35, 12 January 2010 (EST)
Right, but we don't actually want to discourage people from creating new outline articles—it's just this particular user is creating such outlines in bad faith, often with false or misleading content, or for destinations he thinks shouldn't have articles. Hard cases make bad law, as they say. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 13:45, 12 January 2010 (EST)
Well I don't know how you tell this one user from any other. (WT-en) LtPowers 15:49, 12 January 2010 (EST)
Beyond their own admission [2]? Much like how we recognize spambots, they have a distinct pattern and some decidedly unusual grammatical habits that add up to a fairly convincing identification, and they've been active under several consecutive new user accounts in just the past five days, at a minimum including Special:Contributions/(WT-en) KillerGhoulSlaya2457, Special:Contributions/(WT-en) FourGreenLights, Special:Contributions/(WT-en) Ola346, Special:Contributions/(WT-en) Cortage, Special:Contributions/(WT-en) DonaldFrederickLandry II, and another one or two that were abandoned so quickly they're not conclusive (see also the deletion log for more of their debris). - (WT-en) D. Guillaime 17:40, 12 January 2010 (EST)

Still, no harm adding to the policy that articles with no travel content identified as page creation vandalism can be speedy deleted. This sets no precedent, and they can be recreated with legitimate travel content at any time subsequently. In the deletion comment, just note that it was speedy deleted as pcv, and then everyone is on the same page. --(WT-en) inas 18:03, 12 January 2010 (EST)

The vast majority of empty page creations are by new users trying to find out if the destination they are looking for can be accessed by that link, or are simply trying out their first steps on contributing to a wiki. Better to just link pcv in the edit summary.
And regarding the undeletion here, I think it's perfectly fine in this type of case for someone to just go right ahead and re-create an article if they think it worthwhile. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 19:08, 12 January 2010 (EST)

UNESCO (and Unesco)[edit]

The page was deleted with the reasoning "could also refer to UNESCO creative cities". While that is true, I believe it's one of those circumstances where nearly every time it is used, the intended article is UNESCO World Heritage List. The UNESCO Creative Cities list is linked to in the World Heritage article's intro, and also in the left sidebar. Before reading that article, I was not even aware UNESCO Creative Cities existed, and I live in one! So I propose we undelete the article, and redirect to the Heritage List. At the very least, but unpreferably, it should be recreated as a disambiguation between the two, as the deletion leaves a long list of dead links. JamesA >talk 15:05, 5 October 2012 (CEST)

  • Strong support. Jjtk (talk) 15:22, 5 October 2012 (CEST)
  • You're right I have been a bit quick on deleting. The reason I deleted these two pages, is because UNESCO is an agency of the United Nations. I thought a redirect could perhaps confuse site visitors, as "UNESCO" itself doesn't give much of a clue on what someone could be looking for. Pages like UNESCO World Heritage Site should obviously be redirected to the UNESCO World Heritage List, but just "UNESCO" could mean many things for someone searching, of which UNESCO Creative Cities is an obvious example. UNESCO does a lot more than just keeping World Heritage Sites. --Globe-trotter (talk) 16:01, 5 October 2012 (CEST)
  • Undelete. I agree with James's reasoning: though UNESCO does do many things, from a travel perspective, I'd expect nearly everyone is looking for the WHL. I was also unaware of the Creative Cities until just now, and I see it's a fairly new program; if it starts becoming more noticed in future years, we can absolutely change the redirect to a disambiguation page, but for now I don't think it's beneficial. Tons of dead links with no page at all are certainly not beneficial. The CC list is also prominently listed in the WHL's intro paragraph, so it should get enough visibility. -- D. Guillaume (talk) 02:22, 7 October 2012 (CEST)

Result: Undeleted --Globe-trotter (talk) 17:26, 7 October 2012 (CEST)

Template:Busy[edit]

This template was deleted given reason that "Only one user is using the template currently,". This template is almost on every wiki of WMF projects and it is only used by users when necessary (when they're busy in real life). The consensus was to keep the template because majority of the votes was to keep. Please support to undelete it. Thank you. --Saqib (talk) 06:25, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

  • Undelete - There was no consensus to delete this. In fact, the majority of the votes were to keep this template. sumone10154(talk) 00:09, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Undelete - per User:Sumone10154. I would also like a clarification of our deletion policy for templates. I tried to begin a clarification of policy here, but no sooner had I started, my edit was reverted -- Alice 08:47, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Wait. Our practices regarding templates are evolving, with some users offering constructive criticism and suggestions. We may decide that people can create any userspace templates they want, but let's work through those discussions first. --Peter Talk 08:58, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
  • As explained on Template talk:Busy, deletion discussions are emphatically not a majority vote. All pages up for deletion are guilty until proven innocent, and no compelling case for keeping the template was presented in the discussion. There is no purpose to this template that cannot be served just as well by a simple notice at the top of someone's talk page, and no one even attempted to present one in the deletion discussion. Two persons said nothing more than "Keep"; surely you don't expect me to do anything but completely discount such a useless contribution to the discussion? LtPowers (talk) 16:00, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
    • LtPowers: you have been very informative in explaining how you arrived at the decision to delete and I hope I have learned a lot from those explanations.
    • I still don't think that the policy existing at the time of the deletion proposal dealt at all adequately with templates in User namespace so I think that the template should be un-deleted forthwith (and then tagged with "experimental" if thought necessary) — and only if you are minded NOT to undelete, should we wait and hold this discussion open per Peter's suggestion.
    • On a point of information, I am baffled why you wrote "Frank mentioned having a way to keep track of users who are busy, but failed to explain why that would be useful." when he clearly gave this explanation: "...more importantly, of us being able to easily compile a list of editors that may not see site notices for a while so that they could be e-mailed instead..." at the time, with the (unwritten) implication (that at least one editor understood, since they responded that there was no policy to use categories in User namespace) that a category could be added to the template.
    • I still think that the majority of our community do not understand that simple "keeps" or "deletes" are useless and this needs to be spelt out much more clearly in policy pages or should have been made clear at the time you made the decision, by you so that they could then have added a rationale to their vote stated view. -- Alice 01:40, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
    • Like Alice, I didn't realize that I always had to give an argument for a suggestion to delete or keep an article. And I'd like to know, when decisions are made in the face of a majority vote, who makes the decisions? I have no axe to grind on this particular deletion, but it would seem to me, if the vote were either a majority to keep or about 50/50, we should err on the side of keeping an article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:30, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Why else have a deletion policy at all? It seems to me, that it seems reasonable to be familiar with the deletion policy before you come to vfd. Otherwise, our deletion policy would be whatever people happen to think at the time The vfd page isn't the deletion policy. --Inas (talk) 08:23, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Spot on again, Inas.
That's why I posed this question below (which, at the time of writing this) has not yet been answered:
"Please would someone point me towards the revision of the policy page (extant at the time this template was nominated for deletion) 06:57, 15 October 2012 (CEST) that clearly enunciated that templates were not allowed in User namespace (or, indeed, the deletion policy dealing with templates - and, let's be clear, templates are decidedly neither articles nor images)?"
This policy about template deletion was only parachuted in to Wikivoyage:Deletion policy as recently as this revision of 08:56, 6 December 2012 -- Alice 08:35, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Undelete: Harmless Purplebackpack89 19:56, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
    In the discussion, I discounted "harmless" as a reason to keep the template; it is even less suitable as a reason to undelete. LtPowers (talk) 20:24, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Undelete: as the intent of the policy was to avoid a template making changes to the format of the destination guides in mainspace. There is no reason why a userspace page would follow a standardised see-do-buy-eat-drink-sleep format or need to look like every other page on the wiki. K7L (talk) 02:21, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Undelete as clearly against consensus. --Rschen7754 02:22, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Delete Consensus and policy needs to be established elsewhere, and followed here. The consensus up until now has clearly been against userspace templates. I don't see this as a big deal, and I'd be open to a discussion to permit them, and I'd love to be convinced. If and when that new policy is clear, then I'll follow that and vote to undelete. --Inas (talk) 03:22, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
    • That seems logical and straight forward.
    • Please would someone point me towards the revision of the policy page (extant at the time this template was nominated for deletion) that clearly enunciated that templates were not allowed in User namespace (or, indeed, the deletion policy dealing with templates - and, let's be clear, templates are decidedly neither articles nor images)? PS: One can't expect new (or old) editors here to ferret out POLICY from vague and interminable discussions without a stated conclusion on user talk or article discussion pages. If it's not written on a policy page somewhere, then it's not policy. Simple really.
    • It's not surprising if policy/consensus is so opaque that even the most unlikely unwittingly fall foul of it if there really is a policy somewhere not to allow templates in user namespace. Not to worry, though, Philippe can just lose the wicked template, convert his Wikivoyage user page into raw HTML and wikimarkup and that will be hunky dory, eh? -- Alice 05:38, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
      • I agree fully with Inas. Given that we're currently trying to hash out a new consensus on this, trying to runaround that process here seems inappropriate. --Peter Talk 08:32, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
        • Do you also think that we should also not make things clearer in the header of the most proximate page? I would have thought it was in everyone's interest not to continue to see peoples views and time wasted through deliberate obfuscation. -- Alice 10:14, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
          • You deleted an important part of the initial message. I also take into account votes that are not explained in detail (especially if a long discussion is above). Not everyone needs to tell the same story again to be counted. If i heard the same story four times, the 5th will not make it better/worse. Don't make discussions here harder. jan (talk) 10:28, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
            • Really? When?
            • Are you able to produce the diff. that shows that I "deleted an important part of the initial message". What exactly and precisely was the important part that you contend I deleted, please? -- Alice 10:35, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
              • The diff you stated above yourself, when i undid your change [3]. The words you deleted Articles and images are presumed guilty until proven innocent. After fourteen days of discussion, if a consensus is reached to retain an article, it won't be deleted. Otherwise it will be deleted by an administrator. Please read the Nominating and Commenting sections prior to nominating articles/images or commenting on nominations. jan (talk) 10:38, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
                • I think you need new spectacles, Jan. Look again carefully and you will see that far from deleting the emboldened phrase "Articles and images are presumed guilty until proven innocent." I actually made it stand out more by giving it its own separate line! Please revert your unnecessary and uncalled for revert of my helpful text and give me a little apology for reverting too hastily without actually studying the diff. This is just one reason that I always recommend editing rather than reverting. -- Alice 10:49, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Alice, i do have a real life, so i can't comment instantly on everything. You falsely suggest that i do slowly response but sometimes other things have priority (e.g. my lunch break). Writing things in big and seperate them doesn't make them better. If you copy things to a talk page, then place them at the bottom (you should know that by now). jan (talk) 12:06, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

  • Delete I still can't see any compelling reason why people need this template. We have been slushed with templates we don't need. jan (talk) 07:52, 21 January 2013 (UTC)


I'd like to clear up some procedural things.

1) When this template was created, our policy was: Before a new Mediawiki Template is put into general use it needs to be discussed and accepted as good or preferably best practice [4].
2) Vfd "votes" are not votes in an electoral sense—they must reference policy. Accordingly, votes with comments like "harmless" are going to be disregarded.
3) Consensus is needed for change, not for undoing new changes. That's why the vfd page says at the top: Articles and images are presumed guilty until proven innocent. After fourteen days of discussion, if a consensus is reached to retain an article, it won't be deleted. Otherwise it will be deleted by an administrator. There was no consensus to retain it, so it was deleted.
4) And most importantly, vfd and vfu are not for policy discussion, and should never be used as an attempt to circumvent our processes for determining policies. Every time someone does this, it just causes drama and wasted effort.

Our ages old practice has been to not create templates for userspace. I think that should change, and that we probably should keep this template, but we need to have an actual discussion, rather than warrioring on these pages. --Peter Talk 20:53, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Peter, that was very helpful and accurate.
In the meantime, while we decide whether policies need tweeking or not, I think it vital that everyone is clear what the current policies are and I have suggested clearer wording here. I hope you will be able to support the general principle that clarity in policy statements and reminders should be encouraged. -- Alice 22:21, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Rock[edit]

Undelete. This page was deleted by User:Ikan Kekek @ 11:37 21 January 2013 on the basis of "no useful content" but should be reinstated. I had created the page only minutes before and had only filled in the Understand section. Having gone away to obtain further information, I returned a few minutes later to add some listings only to find that the page had been deleted without any discussion. Speedy deletion within minutes of an article's creation, where there is no breach of policy, serves no useful purpose other than to annoy people. For my part, I'm not sure that I can be bothered to make any further contributions to Wikivoyage if attempts to create useful articles are deleted within the first few minutes of their life. Tallguyuk (talk) 14:34, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Undelete. Rock, Cornwall is a real place. One might argue that it is too small to get its own article & should be just a redirect, but there is no reason at all for deletion. Pashley (talk) 15:01, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I've speedy undeleted this. It looks like there was confusion as to whether this was a test edit (common English word, initial edit contained only an empty template), which is probably why it was speedy deleted. -- Ryan • (talk) • 17:18, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

{{Sleep/BR}} {{S-BR}} {{Eat/BR}} {{E-BR}}[edit]

As I not be informed [5], the argument is not true (see the discussion Wikivoyage_talk:Listings#About_tables.) and the proposal do not receive any kind of support/discussion/... to deleteWikivoyage:Votes_for_deletion/January_2013#Template:E-BR.2C_Template:Eat.2FBR.2C_Template:S-BR.2C_Template:Sleep.2FBR, this templates:

Must be recreated, and are experimental presets templates that not reached a consensus. Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton m 15:26, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree that it is not just natural justice to inform the creator of templates of a proposal for their deletion, it should also be policy. Are you saying that no Vfd templated notice was placed on these experimental templates? (That should be sufficient notice, because you should be "watch"ing them).
If there was no notice, they should be speedy undeleted and a new Vfd started if people feel strongly that these experimental templates should not exist. Perhaps you could re-create them in your user name space to see exactly what we're discussing? -- Alice 19:13, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
They were properly VfD'd as far as I can tell. The VfD notice was correctly applied, and two weeks elapsed before they were deleted. At this point, we would need a consensus to use these templates in order to have them restored. LtPowers (talk) 00:49, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for that information. I can't see the utility of these templates myself - even for the restricted use of Eat and Sleep listings in Brazil but that's not the point. -- Alice 03:28, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
I think these should just be moved to the userspace. Any objections if I just proceed to do that? --Inas (talk) 03:29, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
None from me. Then Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton can have another bash at persuading editors on individual articles as to their utility on an individual basis. -- Alice 03:34, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Alexandria (Romania)[edit]

It's a county seat. No matter how Really bad it seemed, "These articles should be (left to be) improved rather than deleted." Especially since it already had some section structuring. -- Jokes Free4Me (talk) 23:00, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

If it had no actual content, it was deleted in order to eliminate the notice that it was derived from an article on the Wikitravel site. So the best thing to do in that case is not to undelete the article but to recreate the template and then turn it into a real article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:05, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
Ikan Kekek is right; just plunge forward and re-create it anew with our blessing, Napoleon... --210.246.47.134 08:43, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
I was the one who deleted this and now I recreated it. --Saqib (talk) 10:10, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Template:Archive[edit]

I believe that there was in fact a consensus to keep this template. It was deleted under a good faith but mistaken impression that a single editor in favor of deletion requires deletion. See discussion at Wikivoyage:Votes for deletion/December 2013#Template:Archive. Powers (talk) 14:21, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Now that the features which differentiate it from Template:Talk archive have been explained, I suppose I don't have any particular remaining objection if it has a use. Could you give some examples of pages where this is needed? Texugo (talk) 14:34, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
On talk pages with a number of archives (primarily User talk pages), it makes the task of recording and keeping track of archive pages trivial. Powers (talk) 01:14, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
I see this was never resolved. I have no opinion on this, but if there's a purpose for the template, sure, why not undelete it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:47, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
Thank you, Ikan. As the nominator I don't feel comfortable undeleting it myself. Powers (talk) 18:37, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
This still hasn't been resolved. I still don't feel comfortable undeleting it myself. Perhaps User:AndreCarrotflower would be willing? Or User:Ikan Kekek? Powers (talk) 14:17, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
User:AndreCarrotflower, any objection? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:44, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
The deletion was based on a long-ago misreading of policy on my part. I don't have any personal opinion on the merits of whether this template should or shouldn't exist, and no particular objection if we want to undelete it. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:53, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, Andrew. Undeleted accordingly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:50, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Be Smart When It Comes To Disney World[edit]

Text from this old article is still being used in Walt Disney World. It's a violation of our license to remove that attribution-by-redirect. Powers (talk) 00:05, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Which text and where? Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:48, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
I haven't catalogued all of it yet but the very first text I searched for turned up at Walt Disney World#Timing. I thought that'd be enough. Powers (talk) 18:57, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
I've undeleted it for now - attribution always comes first. If someone has found time to check which sections are affected and rewrite/properly attribute them, this redirect can be speedy re-deleted. JuliasTravels (talk) 11:18, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
Attribution would be tricky, as it wasn't even done correctly the first time. (A different IP user did the copy+paste without saying where the text had come from.) Powers (talk) 15:06, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Here is the copied text I've found:

  • "Attendance is lowest in November (pre-Thanksgiving), December (pre-Christmas), and January." (October has since been added.)
  • "The weeks between Easter and Memorial Day are another slow period"
  • "If your vacation dates are flexible" through "it will allow you to relax and enjoy the park on the more crowded days" -- two paragraphs worth with just one or two sentences inserted since the paste.
  • "Extra morning and evening [magic] hours at selected parks"
  • "Disney Cast Members available to answer your questions"
  • "Free parking at the parks"
  • "On the other hand, staying off property has its own perks" (slightly modified in the current article)
  • "you can book condos or home rentals for large groups which allow you to cook meals making dining costs even cheaper and lodging costs very cheap."
  • "Every park has low cost meals in the $3-$4 range for kid meals and $6-$8 for adult meals at the sandwich shops, ethnic specialty nooks, cafeterias, and communal dining halls (like ABC Commissary at MGM). They provide ample food for the money. You can often feed your whole family for little more than the cost of one expensive entrée at the upscale restaurants." (slightly modified in the current article)

-- Powers (talk) 15:19, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Would it be possible to remove all of this text and replace it with new, original content? The huge amount of stale WT content that hasn't changed in half a decade is already hurting us WV:SEO-wise. K7L (talk) 13:38, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
I second this motion! Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:53, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
We could replace it but close paraphrases are usually consider plagiarism just as much as exact quotations. I believe the same applies to copyright. Powers (talk) 23:21, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
  • It seems that the redirect has been restored. Is it OK now to archive as restored? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:52, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, that seems obvious. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:15, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Islamic State[edit]

A short article titled "Islamic State" was recently speedy deleted and moved to [[Wikivoyage:Bad jokes and other deleted nonsense/Islamic State]]. Discussion is archived at Wikivoyage:Votes_for_deletion/August_2014.

I think there is a good argument for bringing it back. Unfortunately, this state is neither a bad joke nor nonsense in the way that other entries at Wikivoyage:Bad jokes and other deleted nonsense are. It is quite real, the people involved are quite serious, and it currently controls some territory. We do cover other such states such as Transnistria, and should since their existence can seriously affect travel plans and risks.

On the other hand, I think "Islamic State" is a terrible name since it is a generic term and there are plenty of other Islamic states. A search for "Islamic" turns up four whose official names are "Islamic Republic of ...". I'd put it at ISIL with redirects from the full name and "Caliphate". Pashley (talk) 15:38, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

I think our policy is to wait a year or so before deciding that new entities that exist as a result of armed conflict are here to stay, perhaps especially those with unclear and shifting borders. Moreover, the writer of this article himself called it "gallows humor." I oppose moving the article back into mainspace. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:40, 11 August 2014 (UTC)it the year
That is fair enough; let's wait the year. Given that both Iraq and Syria oppose them and other nations may as well, ISIL may not last that long. Pashley (talk) 18:46, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
I didn't know there was a year waiting period, but I guess that is fair. It looks like Russia's Crimea jumped to the front of the line, though? The joke was mostly a very grim one about this state being a reality, but it was also poking fun at some of the other articles here that treat unrecognized and failed states equally with normal countries to visit! Also, "Bad jokes and nonsense" is kind of harsh :) Travelwriter1000 (talk) 20:58, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
This is a real place, and we don't delete real places. Restore as, for the time being, a redirect to whatever region of Iraq it corresponds to, then we can reassess after the long-term scenario becomes more clear. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:31, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
Taking into account Pashley's concerns about the article's title, another option would be to restore it as a disambiguation page, listing the ISIL-held territory with a link to the appropriate region article as well as the "Islamic Republic Of..." articles. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:34, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
To clarify about Crimea: When it's clear that something really is a fait accompli, we should change articles accordingly, but this is a state of flux and not something we can be confident will exist or be in remotely similar borders in a month, let alone 6 months. Similarly, it would have been a mistake to have a travel article about the extremist Islamist group that briefly occupied northern Mali and laid waste to as many cultural monuments as possible. I continue to oppose undeletion of this article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:40, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm strongly with Ikan. It's not the "not-recognized" part that's a problem. Of course we have articles about de-facto states with more-or-less clear borders and under more-or-less clear control of a non-recognized government. This one is different though, at least at this moment. It's a self-proclaimed caliphate since just weeks in its current form; a still ongoing event. There are no clear boundaries yet, no clear plan, it's a true war zone where an extreme group is working towards a genocide while fighting another extreme group ánd the relevant recognized governments for control. The US is dropping bombs and not even humanitarian aid can be properly delivered except in the form of thousands of food and water air drops today and yesterday. From a travellers' point of view, the question at this point is not where to apply for a visa. It's essentially a no-go zone for which we can give pretty much no other relevant, recent or trustworthy information now except that you should probably stay away. Of course this might change rapidly over time, and I'm fine with adapting the way we handle this then, but a serious travel article about the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant at this point in time seems... misguided at best. JuliasTravels (talk) 09:14, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Indeed, we also have articles for Transdniester, Somaliland and other similar places because our articles should reflect what you will face if you go to these areas. I would however also wait and see what happens in this case. Ikan mentioned Azawad that existed for a short while but is no longer, and currently Donetsk and Luhansk are effectively independent countries that might or might not need country articles at some point, but as of now we should not create them either but wait and see.
Obviously, places like these are more often than not some sort of war zones, ie. unsafe and hard to reach. People who go there do so because someone sends them there (not for tourism), and that employer or whatever will provide them with the information, equipment and transportation they need. ϒpsilon (talk) 09:42, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
It's been a year. Just sayin'... Travelwriter1000 (talk) 19:09, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
True, but the original BJAODN entry was moved to the "bad joke" pages specificly because the original author claimed to be joking (presumably, gallows humour) when this was posted. K7L (talk) 19:23, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Also, if someone wanted to write a serious article about the area controlled by these murderers, what would it say other than "stay well clear of the following region"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:02, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I say that while we generally claim to take no side in political disputes and only care for the reality on the ground for travelers, the fact of the matter is that the facts on the ground are hard to determine and there are hardly any travelers. Furthermore the "borders" (read: frontlines) of this self proclaimed state (a funny wording as all states are self proclaimed and rely on violence or the threat of it to remain in existence) are in a constant state of flux, so we really cannot very well cover this place. Last but not least while WV has thus far not reached a lot of media recognition having a page with that title is bad press waiting to happen. I know none of these are criteria officially, but imho it would be foolish not to keep them in mind. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:03, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I don't think it's true that there are few travellers to IS-controlled territory. A lot of Muslims have been indoctrinated into extremism and flock to Turkey with the purpose of going to the Caliphate and either fighting or marrying some extremist man. But what advice would we give them, other than don't!? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:23, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps Da'esh should be a travel topic, much like dangerous animals is a travel topic. It's not a place, it's a hazard of travel. K7L (talk) 13:38, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Do not restore because 1) we should not encourage travelers to visit such dangerous regions and 2) per Ikan Kekek's point that "if someone wanted to write a serious article about the area controlled by these murderers, what would it say other than 'stay well clear of the following region'?" --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:50, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
The other important point is that we should be professional with our articles and titles, rather than writing articles casually about these types of topics. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:52, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Result: no consensus to restore the page, so archive as remain deleted. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:16, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Template:Traveltopic[edit]

Since February 2013, this has been a redirect to Template:PartOfTopic. User:Texugo deleted it because of potential confusion over the deprecation of this one in favor of that one. But here's the thing: I don't think we ever came to a consensus to deprecate this one in the first place. Specifically, I don't think we ever had a strong consensus that breadcrumb navigation is useful for travel topics. The pseudo-hierarchy that our travel topics have been shoehorned into is a mess. I suggest we abandon the PartOfTopic experiment as a failure and revert to using Template:Traveltopic. Powers (talk) 23:28, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

To be clear, you are proposing not restoring it as a redirect, but in its form prior to Jan 2013 when it was redirected. Correct? Texugo (talk) 23:40, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Basically. Powers (talk) 00:00, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Emphatic support. Pashley (talk) 00:16, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Support. Somewhere down the line we probably should make another stab at a better organization scheme for our travel topics, but the current state of affairs is far inferior to its predecessor. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:05, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment what was the approximate content of said travel topic? Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:13, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
    Apologies. It's still available on that other wiki in essentially the same form. It's very simple, as you can see. Powers (talk) 23:23, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
So the proposal is to get rid of breadcrumb organization of travel topics and substitute this template. Shouldn't there be a concurrent discussion someplace like Talk:Travel topics index (which is where Talk:Travel topics redirects to), before we undelete this with no consensus on what to do with it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:27, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Some older discussions are at Talk:Travel_topics_index#Change_to_tagging_travel_topics. (as I see it, no consensus but the change was made anyway) and Talk:Travel_topics_index#Problems_with_current_setup. Pashley (talk)
Shouldn't we restart discussion in that thread and come to a consensus before we vote on undeleting this template? The change may have been made improperly, but because it's existed for 2 years, I think discussion outside of Votes for undeletion is appropriate and probably needed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:37, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
My contention is that we never had a consensus to remove this template in the first place. Powers (talk) 14:22, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
I think your contention is accurate, but I still think 2 years of practice probably require a consensus to undo. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:34, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
I agree with Ikan on both points. Pashley (talk) 16:18, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Mark me down as undecided - on the one hand we could do with more help for writing travel topics (not necessarily standard headings, but "understand" and "see also" apply almost universally) but I don't know whether this template is the way to go... Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:02, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
This template has nothing to do with {{smallcity skeleton}} and similar "article template" formatting, it's just the one-line '''{{PAGENAME}}''' is a travel topic.. Reinstating it does nothing to standardise anything in the article. K7L (talk) 15:55, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
It was created quite a long time back User_talk:Pashley/Archive#Thanks. I'm almost certain we could & should do something better now, but I'm not sure what & I remain convinced that breadcrumbs for travel topics are a mistake. Pashley (talk) 17:20, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Singles travel[edit]

This was deleted some time ago; see Talk:Singles_travel for archived discussion. I originally suggested the deletion & supported it later. However, it is potentially a valid travel topic & should be resurrected if (& only if!) someone wants to do the work of building a decent article on it. I am not volunteering.

I think it would need at least two sections, one on destinations or tours where people go to meet other singles (e.g. Florida or Queensland on university breaks) and one on countries where male travellers are swamped with women who want a visa or think we are rich. e.g. in the Philippines, a lass working as a store clerk or waitress might make US$125-200 a month & a moderately well off foreign boyfriend could easily spend that much on her. It also needs a link to Common_scams#Dating_scams.

Additional sections are possible, such as one on travel for gay or lesbian singles and perhaps one on places where prostitution is legal and/or cheap & ubiquitous. Pashley (talk) 01:28, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

I don't get the assumption that prostitution is specifically, let alone only, for single people. I would leave that out of any such article. Prostitution may deserve a separate article, though it's certainly a very delicate subject to cover tastefully in a travel guide. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:53, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
I agree, it would be hard to cover well & much the easiest course would be to leave it out, but it might be an option for some people (mostly men) who want to get laid while travelling. Pashley (talk) 05:03, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
The reason I brought this article up for possible resurrection is that it is listed at Special:WantedPages with seven links from other articles. Pashley (talk) 05:03, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
OK, but do you agree that prostitutes don't cater expressly to single people, and therefore that prostitution is a different topic than singles travel? Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:39, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
Yes. Pashley (talk) 08:27, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
We already have travelling alone, LGBT travel and a Wikivoyage:Sex tourism policy but I did oppose a merge of singles travel to solo travel as "single" does not always mean "single and looking". They are two different concepts. I have no intention to write anything, but the topic is valid were someone to write something other than touting or the obvious. K7L (talk) 17:18, 29 April 2018 (UTC)