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Experienced users: Please sweep the pub

Keeping the pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it gets too noisy and hard to read. If you see an old conversation (i.e. a month dormant) that could be moved to a talk page, please do so, and add "{{swept}}" there, to note that it has been swept in from the pub. Try to place it on the discussion page roughly in chronological order.
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Any discussions that do not fall into any of these categories, and are not of any special importance for posterity, should be archived to Project:Travellers' pub/Archives and removed from here. If you are not sure where to put a discussion, let it be—better to spend your efforts on those that you do know where to place.
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Automatic import from Wikidata not (always) working[edit]

Apologies if this has been asked before.

I've been experimenting with Wikidata imports for attractions in Wikivoyage articles. When I use the listing editor to add a new listing and insert the Wikidata value into the proper field, I see the option to sync fields from Wikidata. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to work consistently. For example with this POI: Q104213978. The Wikidata record contains information for address, opening hours, phone number, and even entrance fee, but none of these are "found" by the listing editor. No matter what I try, the listing editor only seems to be able to retrieve values for website URL, email address, and coordinate location.

Am I doing something wrong? Is anyone else also having trouble automatically retrieving other data fields from Wikidata? Or are these features not implemented yet? —The preceding comment was added by 87.74.129.131 (talkcontribs)

Sadly the listing editor here at en-wv is only able to fetch data from Wikidata for a few values, but not all. I don't know whether that was a deliberate community decision or just something the volunteers who do the coding have not gotten around to yet. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:41, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
In that case I'd much rather spend time on updating/developing the listings editor than on manually copy-pasting data over from Wikidata to Wikivoyage listings -- which would then go out of date pretty quickly anyway. Would you happen to know where the code for the listings editor "lives"? Is this a public repo that accepts pull requests? 87.74.129.131 14:20, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
Some of the WD fields which are mentioned are fairly new. For example the opening time field was only created on 21 September 2020, and so I doubt that many listings would return useful data. So in this case I would suggesting waiting a few months to let the listing editor catch up. AlasdairW (talk) 22:27, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── The main problem is that several (new) properties are not simple string values, or they are using additional qualifiers. These values cannot be fetched with simple template parser functions. Both the import to the listing template and the listing editor require huge efforts in programming these scripts. Maybe, a complete reprogramming is necessary.

I think that the import of Wikidata data to the listing template should be avoided because the listing template should fetch them directly from Wikidata. Only the data on Wikidata should be updated so they can be used in other Wikivoyage branches, too.

At the German Wikivoyage we made the reprogramming which is now basically finished. The listing/marker package is huge -- really huge, and its programming took four years. Now we are able to fetch almost all useful data from Wikidata (more than 50 properties including their qualifiers) among them opening hours, hotel/restaurant facilities and features, booking.com urls and so on. Some of these parameters like booking.com urls cannot be entered to the listing template at all because they are exclusively fetched from Wikidata.

So, the listing template call can be really short similar like this:

  • {{listing | name = Alchimistenklause | type = restaurant | wikidata = Q98116402 | auto = y | content = ... }}, or shorter
  • {{listing | wikidata = Q98116402 | auto = y | content = ... }}

At the moment we are testing the usage at the Esperanto Wikivoyage and looking for problems and additional features needed. Within the next weeks we will add the fetching of more Wikidata values and the support of parameter aliases in the listing editor. Then, the listing editor will be able to import all Wikidata values available. Because of the complexity of the Wikidata properties we will not add support to export listing data to Wikidata within the listing editor.

After the addition of some new features to the listing editor we can answer which features are necessary for the listing editor and how to implement them. After this, a reprogramming of the listing editor is necessary: to remove jQuery UI and to add Mediawiki's OOUI (user interfaces), to make the editor available on mobile devices, too. It will take much time. --RolandUnger (talk) 08:00, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

For some examples of current opportunities, see the examples at de:Module:VCard/Doku. --RolandUnger (talk) 08:15, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
Wow I'm very impressed by the technical capabilities of the VCard module on de-wv, RolandUnger! I only have limited experience, but what you say makes sense to me: rather than synchronising/importing data fields, dynamically retrieving them from Wikidata ensures they're always up-to-date. It seems logical that business owners would much rather update their information centrally (on Wikidata) once rather than updating every Wikivoyage language article individually. And it makes articles less cluttered by reducing the length of listings, too.
What's the philosophy behind the "sync" button in the listing editor? With the above in mind, this now feels counterproductive rather than an asset to the project. 87.74.129.131 11:56, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
sadly de-wv and en-wv have not always cooperated well, owing in part to the history of the fork... For example, en-wv has decided to not link to aggregators such as booking.com As for the decision regarding the "sync" functionality, I think this is to enable easily copying values to wikidata that were input locally as well as choosing deliberately to have certain values different for wd and wv (e.g. Coordinates for the center of a park on wd but the main entrance on wv; the native link on wd but the English language link on en-wv). There may also be aesthetic preferences regarding "clutter" and the fact that the source text of Wikipedia pages can look daunting to first time editors leading to a desire to reduce templates to a minimum. Whether this is a wise decision or was one but no longer is one is a different question. Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:53, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for elaborating on that, I wasn't aware of those subtleties. Looking at the VCard documentation page, de-wv doesn't seem to mind clutter all that much, as evidenced by padding links for Twitter, Youtube and the likes to listings. That seems undesirable to keep articles "clean". However if so much development time and effort has already been invested by our German friends, then it would be silly to not at least try to re-use their work on en-wv as well (instead of developing similar functionality from scratch again). 87.74.129.131 18:50, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
There are similar rules at Wikivoyage/de as on Wikivoyage/en. We do not make links to booking.com or other aggregators in the article itself. The ids of the aggregators are noted only in data-fields of the wrapping span/div container to get them without an access to Wikidata. But there is another rule for us: The traveler comes first. We like to give all information which is useful to travelers. That's why we added an additional Javascript tool named listing info which shows information for taxi drivers and passerbys to help the traveler. This dialogue can display different information including the aggregators links to a location, too.
I am not really sure of the real functionality of "sync". But the data at Wikidata are to complex, and sync can handle only strings so it will fail in many cases like hours or phone numbers with comments. That's why the listing editor at Wikivoyage/de will only fetch data from Wikidata to display (usually not to import to the source code) but it will not export data to Wikidata.
And I do not like to hide an information: if you are fetching data from Wikidata then they do not appear in the original source code. So people who use information from Wikivoyage should not use the simple source code to parse but the expanded source or html code. --RolandUnger (talk) 09:45, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
It is true, that there is no cooperation between Wikivoyage/de and Wikivoyage/en. But this is not caused by Wikivoyage/de. Our admins and authors helped and help Wikivoyage/en, for instance user:Mey2008 in case of map development, and I gave support at the beginning of Wikimedia-based Wikivoyage, I am helping to administrate English Wikivoyage and I am giving information to the local community. Normally, all that information is ignored. Otherwise I've got a notion that the English community is not interested in ideas developed in other communities and they think only the decisions made the English community is the real deal.
It is correct that social media services are shown at the German Wikivoyage. But the same is done at the English Wikivoyage using the url parameter. The main difference is that social media are marked as social media at the German Wikivoyage but not at the English one. Our scripts are divided into code and localization modules and it is easy to configure local implementations. So, social media can be excluded easily. --RolandUnger (talk) 10:26, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
I would certainly like to coordinate more closely between different Wikivoyages. I'm not very technical, though. Should we have a different thread that enumerates the differences between the Wikivoyages and discusses what we could do to make them more directly compatible with one another? Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:05, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
I think it is not mainly a problem of compatibility. We at German Wikivoyage try to remain downward compatible with other Wikivoyages. Of course we can discuss/explain the developments at least at the German and Italian Wikivoyages. But it takes time which we should use to improve Wikivoyage. While we at the German Wikivoyage hurrying ahead and making decisions as fast as possible, people at the English Wikivoyage seem not to be interested in or hinder further developments. Programmers at the English Wikivoyage are not really supported by the community, many of them left Wikivoyage or stopped working as a programmer (for instance Mey2008, Ryan/Wrh2). Now, only Andyrom75 from the Italian community is working on scripts. Maybe the English community should discuss first what it really wants to achieve now and in future.
I was also really surprised on the (missing) reaction of the English community when user NMaia announced the establishment of the Wikidata hours property. He made a good job at Wikidata and now at the Esperanto Wikivoyage. And he thought that he would get support by the English community in that case (only I supported him). But this community was indifferent towards his announcement. --RolandUnger (talk) 15:29, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
I thought I remembered a number of us being interested. I was. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:50, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
Yep. Roland, what interest were we supposed to show other than thanking Nmaia, asking questions, and raising concerns (which is what happened)? When and where has English Wikivoyage hindered developments by other language versions of WV?--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:30, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
I commented at Wikidata:Property talk:P8626, but didn't get an feedback on how this works if different days have different opening times. AlasdairW (talk) 23:48, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

A little help please[edit]

Hi! I have created three new pages Holbury, Fawley and Calshot. However, I do not believe that these pages are up to scratch. Can I have a hand updating them and improving them please? 82.3.185.12 09:38, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

They're little stubs. Please read Wikivoyage:What is an article and have a look at Wikivoyage:Small city article template. Do any of them have enough attractions of any kind that are interesting enough for them to merit their own article? This travel guide is different from Wikipedia, which as an encyclopedia covers any village, regardless of whether it's of any significance or interest to visitors. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:40, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Yes, they are important otherwise I wouldn't have created them. two of them have the largest oil refinery in the uk, and the other one has a very famous beach. 82.3.185.12 09:47, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
You're probably the best person to expand these articles. I haven't even heard of these places. If you can add information about what to see and do there, where you eat and where to stay, we can help with things like linking and formatting. Welcome to Wikivoyage Ground Zero (talk) 11:26, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Does the oil refinery have a visitor centre? Can travellers go on tours of the site? Otherwise it is only of interest if there is a lot of business travel to the site (other than mentioning it in the county article so that visitors can avoid the area). Looking at a guide book to England, none of these places appear in the index. Calshot has a castle and the beach, so it may be of interest to travellers. I think that the three articles should be merged into one. AlasdairW (talk) 11:42, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Alasdair, let's see what the new contributor can add to these articles first, and then decide whether to merge them. If there isn't much to add, then sure. But if the new contributor has a lot to say about these places, then no. Ground Zero (talk) 11:45, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
To get things started I have added the template and some listings to Calshot. AlasdairW (talk) 12:00, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
The user left me a similar message to the above, which I replied to, but they haven't edited since. Most people with a genuine interest in expanding Wikivoyage don't create three stubs, ask for help twice and then immediately go quiet when they receive some.
In the event they don't come back in the next day or two, I would propose merging Calshot to Hythe (Hampshire) and speedy deleting the other two. You can't visit Fawley oil refinery. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:21, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
I don't expect anything to come of this, but its only been 4 hours since the above message was posted. 4 hours. If there is a slim chance that this contributor can, with a little encouragement, expand these articles, it is worth waiting at least a few days instead of jumping on their articles moments after they were posted. Ground Zero (talk) 13:34, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
I refer you to my above comment.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:47, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
And I also know the area well enough to know the places don't merit their own articles, but that a couple of things would make decent additions to Hythe.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:50, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
The tone of the discussion, including your comments, and its focus on merging/deleting these articles instead of building them is not supportive of a new contributor. This is the sort of thing that scares newbies away. We should focus on encouraging newbies. This is an individual we're dealing with, so we should not just assume that they are not like the "most people" you describe above. Ground Zero (talk) 13:54, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Why did you assume I was talking about this user when I said most people? Maybe you're assuming bad faith on my part, which to be fair is understandable given how antagonistic I normally am, but in this case I'm just planning for either eventuality, in the knowledge that it's a busy time of year when these (currently orphan) articles can easily slip my or others' minds.

If the IP is interested in growing Wikivoyage, he or she will come back. In this event, I've offered to help, and the offer I made in good faith still stands. But in the event that (s)he doesn't, you all know what my proposal is. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:14, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

I did conclude that you were talking about this user because you wrote "Most people with a genuine interest in expanding Wikivoyage don't create three stubs, ask for help twice and then immediately go quiet when they receive some." This user wrote three stubs and asked for help. I don't know if they "immediately went silent", or just went out for a walk or to work, as people do. (I did leave a "not" out, and have added in to my comment above in italics.)
I am not assuming bad faith on your part, because I have always found you to be a constructive and collaborative editor. And I don't see you as being antagonistic at all. In this case, however, a lighter touch is warranted. This discussion will remain in thei pub for a month, according to our archiving protocol, so it won't be forgotten, and there is no rush to purge or even plan to purge these articles. Ground Zero (talk) 14:26, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
You concluded wrongly, but as the author of the sentence that is more my fault than yours. I suppose there is no rush. We'll have to disagree about my tone, which is fine as long as we're all assuming good faith.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:12, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
You're right, I'm back and I have improved them, however I have done all I can do, merge them with Hythe if you like. 82.3.185.12 09:14, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Calshot is a distinct settlement and has several listings so presumably should be kept (if it has enough) while the other 2 are suburbs of Hythe so unless there's significant points of interest it can just be merged. Crouch, Swale (talk) 15:07, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
@Crouch, Swale: they are not part of Hythe, they are just near it. 82.3.185.12 12:06, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Blocking policy[edit]

I have been sporadically participating on this wiki, mainly on talk pages. It seemed like a small and friendly wiki and I enjoyed reading and contributing here. However, I cannot find any information about this wiki's blocking policy. For example, can I be blocked because I do not provide an email address?

I am particularly worried because it appears that some users are being globally locked out of all wmf-wikis after being blocked locally on some small wikis. Thanks in advance, Ottawahitech (talk) 19:55, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

  • as an admin, I can testify Wikivoyage adminship is somewhat in permanent alert status against vandalism, toutism, spamming, graffiti and such. On weekends and end-of-year periods, the amount of unwanted edits seems to rise, and so does our alertness. Some of us are admins on Wikipedia, Simple Wikipedia, Wikidata and such, and usually act global when it comes to global vandals.

If you notice the column on the left, click on "Get Involved#Policies", the sections you seek shall be about the first of the list. They should clarify. --Ibaman (talk) 20:13, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

"can I be blocked because I do not provide an email address?" - No, absolutely not. As a good faith user who has made positive contributions, you shouldn't worry about being blocked. We block people for having a detrimental impact on the website, through disruptive behaviour, vandalism, repeated flouting of policy, persistent touting... Does that sound like you? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:44, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Exactly what I was going to say. You've quickly made yourself a valuable Wikivoyager. Don't worry about a thing, in regard to your status, and carry on. In terms of your questions about blocking policy, I think Wikivoyage:How to handle unwanted edits explains most of it, and Wikivoyage:Deny recognition is also relevant. If you see reversions and blocks you don't understand, they're probably because we've recognized a pattern that's been employed by innumerable sockpuppets of a long-term vandal and don't need to waste time trying to have a discussion with the latest sockpuppet. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:25, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
@Ottawahitech: I'm glad to read I'm not the only editor here with these concerns. Wikivoyage is the only wiki where I edit without account, because they can't block/ban IP addresses. Admins/moderators on this wiki are extremely short tempered compared to Wikipedia, Wikidata, or OSM, and often assume bad faith rather than good faith particularly from new editors — the discussion above this one is a great example.
On top of that there is a culture of near-zero accountability. Looking at the recent changes history, editors are frequently being banned with vague motivations such as "vandalism", but if you check the edits then there is often nothing wrong with them. The worst part of it is that they known that and delete those edits from logs so that other users can't check what actually happened. The "patterns" that are supposedly "recognised" are not documented or described anywhere...
Unlike other wikis, I'd say editing under a user account is fairly risky on Wikivoyage with the current lack of transparency. 87.74.129.131 17:37, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
We are not one group, which would be able to agree on blocking some specific type of contributors, nor do we want to keep new contributors out, so even if there is less transparency than you might wish for newcomers or non-logged in contributors, there is control among the admins, such as when I was too pessimistic about one newcomer the other day. Admins can and do check also hidden contributions.
These patterns cannot be described in public, as that would make it too easy for vandals to adapt. There are often subtle likenesses between the edits of these regular vandals – obvious when you have learn to recognise them.
I am quite confident that there is little risk for a good faith editor that isn't scared away by a first mistaken block – and a newcomer with a reputable account on another wiki, linked from the user page, will hardly be blocked by mistake even after some misguided first edits.
LPfi (talk) 18:59, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
Okay, so is the above IP address another iteration of user:ArticCynda? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:37, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
I'd not be surprised. So, yes, we do agree on blocking certain types of editors, but that we do openly. –LPfi (talk) 21:15, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────If User:87.74.129.131 feels that any admins have used their powers inappropriately, this would be the place to raise the issue for consideration by other admins. The discussion would need specific examples where the appropriateness of blocking should be re-examined. This would be a worthwhile discussion to have to make sure that we are not discouraging new contributors in our efforts to stop vandalism and to restrain editors who refuse to accept our policies.

Because Wikivoyage has a much smaller pool of active admins than Wikipedia, often we have to act more decisively to deal with vandals and those who refuse to accept our policies. Keeping these people in line take up a lot of time that we'd rather spend building a travel guide.

TT raises the issue of ArticCynda, a user who decided to use Wikivoyage as a platform to promote racist (and, if I recall correctly, anti-Semitic) views. We spent a lot of time trying to deal with that mess, and we don't need to waste our efforts on someone like that. The "Telstra vandal" is another person who wastes our valuable time. We just need to be rid of them. Ground Zero (talk) 21:22, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

We can and do block IP users, and unfortunately have to do so frequently. Of course, many IP users operate in good faith, and I myself was an IP user for a few years before registering an account. It's inevitable that there will always be someone who complains about moderation, but no good-faith user would like what this site would become — very quickly — without moderation. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:23, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
That's not all the filter looks for. Yes, there's a reason for it. I think you can imagine why, right? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:59, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
And unless I'm misreading the page, all it's supposed to do is tag the edit for further review (in other words, at WV:Recent changes patrol after it's live). Let me just say that while filters are quite imperfect, their aim is to minimize vandalism without affecting good-faith editors. I would think that would be obvious, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:03, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
Yes, the filter tags edits with the label "account with unregistered email". It doesn't block the accounts, nor prevent them from editing.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:22, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
Transparent moderation is not the same as no moderation. As the questions/remarks from User:Crouch, Swale and User:Ottawahitech indicate, it's the transparency that's lacking. 87.74.129.131 10:03, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
If you have a specific concern about a specific block or a specific admin, then please raise it. If you're just going to make vague claims without backing up with evidence, then please don't bother. Considering you're very likely to be the block-evading banned user I mentioned above, who filled several Brussels articles with racist material, I'm surprised you have the nerve to call anyone out for lack of transparency.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:18, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
I have userbanned this very obvious instance of ArticCynda block evasion. In the future, I would prefer that we avoid attempting to engage banned users in productive conversation; the reason why they were banned in the first place is because our earlier attempts to do so proved futile. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 14:49, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Posting anonymously here for the first time in 10 years, because I feel someone needs to speak up. Will probably also get my IP blocked for this, but whatever. There is no disagreement about whether moderation is a necessity, and no one wants Chinese nationalist or nazi propaganda, racism, or random redlinks to be added to articles. However there are policies and procedures in place to deal with disruptive behaviour in this community. Blocks/bans are a necessity, but at the very least need community consensus, evidence of wrongdoing, and give the targeted user a chance to defend themselves. The 3 non-moderator users commenting in this thread have all made good contributions to the site. Which hard evidence of wrongdoing was there to block this user, aside from them voicing an opinion that is unpopular among moderators? None of their edits are harmful or disruptive. A 3-month block is also not what most members of our community would find reasonable as a first block under our escalating blocks policy. Those of us who grew up in Central Europe during the late 1980s will recognize the pattern of removing dissident voices from the community. As this thread shows it's still an effective method to silence unpopular discussions. May I remind everyone who's old enough to remember that it were such discussions voicing discontent with WT that ultimately led to the forking of WV from WT? Not everyone who asks a critical question is a 'vandal' or 'enemy'. The interpretation of policies by some moderators/admins causes editors with genuine intentions to be caught in the crossfire of anti-vandalism actions. Ultimately, the fact that user 87.74.129.131 was blocked without clear evidence or justification only illustrates the point they were trying to make. — A concerned Wikivoyager from Poland —The preceding comment was added by 82.132.187.163 (talkcontribs)

Of course, the drawback (for you and us) of you posting anonymously is we have no idea whether you are in fact (a) a long-term productive user whose username or prior IP address we'd recognise; (b) someone who's never posted to Wikivoyage in your life before now aside perhaps from a single edit to Carlisle nearly two years ago, which could equally have been a different individual whose IP address you have now been assigned; or (c) the same individual behind the indefbanned account named above who still for some reason known only to himself wants to stir up division and suspicion among the rest of us.
If (a), it's difficult to see why you think posting from an IP address will make it more likely for the rest of us to sit up and listen, as humans in general tend to like/trust/respond better to people they already know rather than faceless strangers. There is no history on Wikivoyage of long-term productive users having their accounts banned simply for voicing an unpopular opinion, as anyone who has been active "for ten years" would know, and thus no obvious reason for any such person to elect to post anonymously on this one issue.
If (b), it's a mighty strange thing for someone with no prior involvement with Wikivoyage to care about this one issue, instead of getting on with making your first contributions to the travel guide. So strange as to be implausible, in fact.
That would seem to leave (c) as the simplest and most easily-believable option which, as w:Occam's Razor tells us, is therefore most likely to be the truth.
Is there any fault in my logic? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:21, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
TT, there are other options, such as someone having been blocked on another wiki and trying to find out whether other English-language projects have similar policies. But those scenarios are just as unlikely as someone posting in American English "from Poland" on a UK IP address "for the first time in 10 years", even though "here" wasn't even here 10 years ago. (This IP has previously been used to edit articles at the English and German-language Wikipedias, too.)
BTW, some volunteers are starting to use wikipedia:Stylometry to detect long-term abusers. It uses purely public information, such as whether the editor talks about "evidence", "clear evidence", "solid evidence", "obvious evidence", etc. We all have our own characteristic styles. I don't know if it's set up for Wikivoyage yet, but it works particularly well whenever someone has posted thousands of words to talk pages. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:36, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
Definitely not set up, but might be worth talking about. There seem to be some free programs out there (e.g. Signature, though whether they're any good is another matter!--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:06, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

UK to EU travel restrictions...[edit]

We don't cover news but :- https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55385768 and https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55389505 ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:17, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

As BBC sites are often only viewable inside the UK, the first article has "Ireland, Germany, France, Italy, the Netherlands and Belgium are all halting flights"(to/from the UK) and the second is "Covid-19: Dover port halts traffic to France for 48 hours", about France halting freight lorries from the UK. Both of these are as a result of a "new" strain of Covid-19, which has resulted in a sudden lockdown in southeast England and Wales. AlasdairW (talk) 22:38, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Emails from User:Deadfread[edit]

Anyone want to fill me in on what's going on with Talk:Wadowice? I just got a curious email from a brand-new user with zero global edits regarding that page. Powers (talk) 23:06, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Several authors got an email by an author named Deadfread. This vandal author was already blocked. Unfortunately, there is only a note on Wikivoyage talk:Vandalism in progress. --RolandUnger (talk) 15:59, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
...which until just a few minutes ago had been reverted by another admin per Wikivoyage:Deny recognition. Please, people, let's take the time to apply some critical thinking about when coordinating our actions in the face of an emerging situation needs to supersede the principle of recognition denial, rather than automatically reverting every post on every talk page that has to do with long-term vandals. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:35, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Geoinformation[edit]

I read this on Tech News: 2020-52 and though it might be useful to post the information below here as it could be useful. -- WOSlinker (talk) 21:04, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Future changes: You can propose and discuss what technical improvements should be done for geographic information. This could be coordinates, maps or other related things.

Merry Christmas Everybody![edit]

Barncompass.png The Wikivoyage Barncompass
This Barncompass is to wish the entire Wikivoyage community a very merry Christmas as I know how hard everyone has worked this year. 82.3.185.12 14:16, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
You too! :) --Nintendofan885 (talk) 17:41, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Caldas da RainhaStar nomination?[edit]

Hello, fellow Wikivoyagers! I've been toying with adding Caldas da Rainha to Wikivoyage:Star_nominations, but I'm not fully convinced that it's completely ready for nomination. I would appreciate any "peer review"/comments/suggestions that you are willing to offer at Talk:Caldas da Rainha. Thank you! --Nelson Ricardo (talk) 14:51, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

I haven't got time to look through it in detail right now, but knowing the article and how much work you've put in, I'd definitely say it's a strong candidate for star status.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:37, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
Anyone else want to take a look? This is going to take more than one opinion to be promoted. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:53, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Many dynamic maps don’t show the POI... does anyone know why?[edit]

It seems to be happening only in articles with dynamic maps that have mapmasks. Has this bug been brought up anywhere? Is anyone working on fixing this. I noticed it first at HebVoy a couple of weeks ago, but then started seeing that this is happening at the parallel articles on EnVoy. ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 17:44, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

I noticed this problem a few days ago, on Dongguan and Foshan. It seems to come and go. I tried fiddling with the Foshan article to get rid of it, but it went away on its own. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:50, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
Is it possible to have any of the developers responsible for this feature address this issue here? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 15:14, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
Have either of you looked on Phabricator to see if anyone's reported it as an issue? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:44, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
I see Dongguan correctly. In Foshan I've removed {{mapshapes|Q660751}} (metro line) and only now I see all the markers. However I see a glitch on the right side of the shown grey area just for few initial milliseconds. I can't state if the problem is on voy template, wikidata instance or OSM information. Since Template:Mapframe, Template:Mapshape, Template:Mapshapes and Template:Marker hasn't been changed since years, I would tend to exclude that the issue is on Wikivoayge. If the problem is just on few articles (just to say a number, less of a dozen despite the existing thousands) it's a problem of OSM data on a specific instance so it's not a Phabricator matter and need to be solved by someone familiar with OSM. --Andyrom75 (talk) 06:16, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
Granger, if you are able to interact with Chrome console, check it on Foshan. Without the "mapshapes" I got not JS error and I was able to see all the POI in the map, but now that you have restore it, I got the following JS error: Unable to add datalayers to map.. I don't know how to solve it, but that's why me (and potentially others) are not able to see the POI on the map. --Andyrom75 (talk) 12:48, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
Interesting. On Chrome I see exactly what you describe, but on Firefox that error doesn't appear and the markers display correctly. I do get several other errors in the console on Firefox, though, including
  • Error: Missing host permission for the tab
  • NS_ERROR_FAILURE (with a fairly long error message)
  • InvalidStateError: An attempt was made to use an object that is not, or is no longer, usable
Granger (talk · contribs) 14:03, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

This failure is a well-known one. If there is any failure in retrieving geoline or geoshape data from https://maps.wikimedia.org/ map server then the Javascript script for the display of map markers is doing nothing. But the map markers should be displayed in the unlucky case of retrieval failures, too. Unfortunately the map server is failing for whatever reasons (traffic, defective OSM relations, ...). The simple cause is a programming failure. --RolandUnger (talk) 09:11, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Admins, look at filter 22[edit]

End of message. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:28, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Done. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:50, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
Look again please, all admins. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:51, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
If any stewards are reading, I'd love for you to participate, too. User:Bsadowski1, User:MarcoAurelio, User:MusikAnimal, User:Stryn, User:Tegel, User:Tks4Fish, User:Trijnstel and User:Vituzzu, if you see this and have a spare moment, please update us on how you're handling things and what thoughts you have for us. Thank you for the help you've given us here in the past. Let me know if you need more information on how to access the discussion in question. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:51, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
It's very disappointing to see only two other admins participating in the discussion at this time. Maybe that's because it's New Year's Eve. I'll probably ping all of you on the 2nd, though, if no-one else has checked in. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:32, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
I have looked, but have no expertise in filters and so unfortunately can't help.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:34, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Same here. We need those who are technically adept to help, and that probably means a steward or some other technical whiz who's not a local admin, but perhaps we can discuss how to approach whom. I'd observe that the issue is Wikimedia-wide, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:49, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
We could ask for help at w:en:WP:VPT or m:Tech, but if someone offered to help, how could they see the relevant information? Could it be discussed in e-mail? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:03, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
IK: You got the technical help you needed, but the broader issue remains, if I understood the edits correctly. On the latter, I don't know enough. –LPfi (talk) 18:15, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
WhatamIdoing, don't stewards have access to every part of this site without being given any special permissions by local admins? I don't think the basic information is secret, anyway. Vandalism is a Wikimedia-wide problem, and the issue is what is being done to prevent it at a higher level than just this site and how Wikimedia plans on dealing with it going forward. The specifics are best not to discuss in public, of course. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:29, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
This is a publicly viewable page: Wikivoyage:Abuse filters. My invitation is to stewards to visit filter 22 and participate in comments. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:33, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Both m:Stewards and m:Global sysops can see the filter, but there are many technical people who only hold local privileges and won't be able to. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:34, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
I'm sure we'd be happy to give any such technical people who are trusted admins on sister sites admin tools here, too. I invite any to visit this thread. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:39, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
I think you mean Special:AbuseFilter. Powers (talk) 02:08, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
I didn't know I could link that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:38, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the ping. I'll take a look. You can even link to the specific filter: Special:AbuseFilter/22 which will not reveal its contents as it's marked as private (unathorized users will see a "thou shan't pass"-type message). Also, there's a abuse filter maintainer global group (currently just 3 users) that can also help you tweak the filters if you ask them for help. Best wishes for this new 2021. --MarcoAurelio (talk) 11:41, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
Same to you, and thanks very much. I think I should contact them now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:29, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Done. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:38, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── More technical help is needed now (of course). This will be an ongoing project. Whoever knows anything about editing filters, you are paged to Filter 22. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:26, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Please help me improve and expand the article Geocaching[edit]

I've translated most of the content to it from the parallel article on the German Wikivoyage.

Please help me improve the text as much as possible + add any important missing information you can think of. ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 19:59, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Proposed Afrotour project by Free Knowledge Africa Group[edit]

Greetings

Free Knowledge Africa is a group that seek to promote free knowledge and wikimedia projects by Africans, in travel, geography, and cultural heritage.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Free_Knowledge_Africa

We intend to launch a project/contest that will encourage active participation and contributions to the English wikivoyage from Africans and towards African travel content for towns, cities and countries.

We seek your partnerships and support towards achieving this.

We look forward to a favorable response from you.

Thank you. Timmylegend (talk) 16:00, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

@Timmylegend: That sounds like a great initiative. What support can we offer to help you make it a success? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:18, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
@ThunderingTyphoons!: We would appreciate it if case studies from past projects can be shared as well as learning modules and putting up a banner. Timmylegend (talk) 17:16, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
This is exciting! Our coverage of Africa needs a lot of improvement. Just quickly on banners, for now: Information about banners is at Wikivoyage:Banner Expedition and Wikivoyage:Banners. If a page has no custom banner (banner with a photo) on it, any banner with the right dimensions is welcome and can be added without a discussion. If someone wants to suggest a different banner for an article that already has one, a proposal should be made on the article's talk page with thumbnails of the existing and proposed new banners, so that we can discuss and reach a consensus on which one to use. Ikan Kekek (talk)
I assumed "putting up a banner" meant making a cross-wiki advert, like we did for the Editathon a couple of years ago, but I could be wrong. Not sure how easy it is to get one of those, but it's certainly possible.
As far as I know, we don't have any learning modules as such, but there are extensive help pages already and if the group needed a specific portal gathering the relevant how-tos in a single place, I'm sure we could manage that. I wouldn't have thought you would need a comprehensive knowledge of policies and style norms, because there are plenty of Wikivoyagers on recent-change patrol who can 'tidy up' in the wake of your groups' (hopefully copious) additions, but information on how/whether to start a new article, where to put certain information, what the basic layout of an article should look like, etc. would presumably be very useful.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:01, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
(edit conflict) For reference: the "inter-wiki banners" are called central notices and can be requested here; I haven't looked into the process in any detail.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:14, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
Your contributions are definitely welcome! As others have said, Africa is a part of the world where there's certainly room for improvement. Also, if contributors don't feel like reading through policies and style guides, they can have a look at (good) existing articles instead to see what information goes where and how it should be formatted. For example the articles nominated at Wikivoyage:Destination of the month candidates are good examples. Ypsilon (talk) 18:10, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
And I hope we can improve our coverage of African history, in particular sub-Saharan African history. I have been an advocate of promoting historical sites in Africa, because many people have a misconception that sub-Saharan Africa is good only for safaris, and most non-Africans are unaware that there are pre-colonial cities in sub-Saharan Africa. Unfortunately, I do not have the expertise to do it myself. With this project, hopefully someone can start an article along the lines of Historical sites in Africa. The dog2 (talk) 18:41, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
This is a great idea. Timmylegend, we've had some good projects in the past. It's really helpful to remind us when it starts, so we can be on the look out to help newcomers. Are you expecting (mostly) existing Wikipedia editors to participate? If so, then Wikivoyage:Welcome, Wikipedians might be a good starting point. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:29, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
  • As for making page banners (I see other types of banners were mentioned), I could contribute in that area. I did a couple for Namibia in the past and could continue, though in the DRC I found it difficult to find pagebanner images. But there would be many places and countries and I'm sure I could find some where there is a suitable picture that no-one has used for a pagebanner yet. After all Wikimedia Commons is always growing! --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:32, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
  • I support having an edit-a-thon. It drums up a lot of editing interest over a short period of time. OhanaUnitedTalk page 18:50, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Wikivoyage:Africa Expedition[edit]

I've started a draft of an Africa Expedition page, which could be a starting point for participants in this project. I think it is best to keep it brief, and high-level so that it does not overwhelm new contributors. I used Wikivoyage:India Expedition as a starting point, but that page goes into a lot of detail. It would be a great resource for experienced contributors, but way too much information for newbies. (We should also avoid spending too much time working up a "wish list" of everything we'd like to see as that takes time away from actually improving articles.) The page is already long. What could we take out to make this a better starting point for new contributors?

Timmylegend: do you think this would be useful? How can it be better? Ground Zero (talk) 22:13, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

(Before I finished the draft in my workspace, this expedition attracted another member, which indicates that Wikivoyagers are eager to support this project. Ground Zero (talk) 21:58, 4 January 2021 (UTC))
Thanks for taking the initiative to create that page! I made a few edits. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:43, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
Quick question: What would make me a project supporter? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:49, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
It's a very exclusive inner circle of important contributors, i.e., those who add their names to the list. Ground Zero (talk) 22:54, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
I think it would be a great way to monitor the growth and progress of contributions, while also providing a guide to newbies. Although it could be difficult when the page is bulky. Africa is a big continent with over 50 countries, I believe if shared with the various African communities it could be easily achieved. Maybe a contest could also help in driving contributions, what do you think? Timmylegend (talk) 08:17, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Ground Zero, I meant what I needed to do to be a project supporter, but someone (perhaps you) made an edit explaining that. Timmylegend, if you think a contest could help, I suppose we could take a vote on which 5 people made the best contributions or something. Dunno. How about giving everyone a prize of 10 years' free membership to Wikivoyage, with an option of 10 more years after that... ;-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:16, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Yes, I did. I've moved the page from my draft to the main space now. Ground Zero (talk) 12:52, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
@Timmylegend: Sure, please, get all the other African communities involved if you can. I understand that Africa is a very big and diverse place, but the great thing about an online travel guide like this is if an article gets too long, we can always create spin-off articles to move some of that information to. In the example I mentioned, we can have an umbrella article about African history, but if we have a contributor who is an expert on the Benin Kingdom for instance, we can always create a separate Benin Kingdom article, and leave a cursory and brief summary in the umbrella African history article with a link to the new article. The dog2 (talk) 15:45, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
How can I help even though I have never been to Africa? (It's on my to-do list once pandemic is over) OhanaUnitedTalk page 06:12, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Copy edit and fix any formatting that doesn't conform to standard Wikivoyage style. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:25, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Try adding lat/long coordinates. Major attractions should be fairly easy to locate (and may already be in Wikidata). WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:06, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

This is a cool idea ! Anthere (talk) 17:29, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

England and Scotland back in Lockdown?[edit]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55538937 - PM announces a new lockdown for England.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55531069 - "First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said new curbs would be introduced at midnight in a bid to contain the new, faster-spreading strain of the virus."

I've attempted to update the boxes on England and Scotland, but would appreciate some other more experienced editors copy-editing. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:50, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Covid-19 banner for Main Page[edit]

There is a discussion here about using a new banner for the COVID-19 box on the Main Page. Input from other contributors would be appreciated. Ground Zero (talk) 22:01, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Does anyone else want to express their opinions on this? Ground Zero (talk) 14:10, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Blocked Message[edit]

What is it for this Wikimedia wiki? Please answer. 75.83.64.170 04:59, 8 January 2021 (UTC)75.83.64.170

Do you mean a standard message to tell people why they're blocked? We don't have one but just tell them why or ignore them, depending on the reason for the block. I'm curious why you want to know. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:18, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Please block me temporarily then. 75.83.64.170 21:15, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

You're being silly. If you don't want to participate here, don't. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:36, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Technical question regarding Template:Pagebanner[edit]

I've noticed that on HebVoy the template fails to every time on Safari browsers on Ipads and Iphones while it works perfectly Safari broswers on Ipads and Iphones for the English Wikivoyage. Can someone maybe suggest a quick fix for this issue? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 23:32, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

ויקיג'אנקי, most likely is a CSS/JS issue, but since I can't modify mediawiki page on he:voy I'm not able to perform any kind of test. However I've seen that he:voy use the page banner extension, hence all the "topbanner" occurrences on common.js and common.css are useless and can be deleted. No behaviour effect but at least you could focus better on the rest.
For the same reason I would suggest you to reorganize better the styles as done in it:Template:Banner/styles.css for it:Template:Banner simplifing Common.css. --Andyrom75 (talk) 14:42, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
@Andyrom75, if you were willing to clean up the mess, I suspect that they would give you interface-admin rights for a few days. Most small wikis are grateful for any kind of technical help. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:22, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
WhatamIdoing, I'm a bit busy in this period, hence for the cleaning it would be great if they would be able to be autonomous :-) after that for the test, if the problem persist, I can try to help but unfortunately I don't have a Safari test environment (i.e. the equivalent of the Chrome JS console). Any suggestion would be welcome :-) --Andyrom75 (talk) 21:00, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
You might be able to use a website like https://crossbrowsertesting.com (the mw:Editing team has used that one, and it offers a free trial). I didn't look to see whether it uses mobile devices, and this problem only appears in iOS. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:33, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
It's a pity that they need a mobile number (I don't like to disclose it), but thanks for suggesting that site. Once he:voy will be cleaned up, I could evaluate its use. Starting earlier could result in the expiration of the trial period before the actual begin. --Andyrom75 (talk) 12:31, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

The Marriott marketers are back[edit]

See User talk:72.134.24.243, user contributions, and keep in mind that per WV:Don't tout#Marketers and SEOs, people doing marketing for hotel chains are not allowed to add listings on this site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:43, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for letting us know. However, Embassy is a Hilton brand, not Marriott, so it doesn't seem likely this is the same people as before. I wouldn't have thought a Marriott employee would expend any energy on editing on behalf of major rival Hilton, nor vice versa. Hopefully they don't have the same mass-editing programme planned as their predecessors did, but we'll see.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:18, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
So I guess this is an account that's hired by both chains. Seems odd, but... Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:04, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Either way, if they think they won't be reverted on sight they're mistaken.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:16, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
With a global economy like this, it doesn't cost much to hire someone to mass edit random wikis... Let's take the positive: If we are important enough for them to notice us, we're doing something right... Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:53, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
ThunderingTyphoons!, do you think it will be helpful to send Marriott and Hilton a letter like the one you sent to Radisson? The dog2 (talk) 18:58, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
Possibly; it depends how prolific they are. I haven't really been on recent changes patrol for about a week, so don't know.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:02, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Covid: UK to close all travel corridors from Monday[edit]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55681861 ".. The UK is to close all travel corridors from Monday to "protect against the risk of as yet unidentified new strains" of Covid, the PM has said.

Anyone flying into the country from overseas will have to show proof of a negative Covid test before setting off. .." ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:59, 15 January 2021 (UTC)