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Keeping the pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it gets too noisy and hard to read. If you see an old conversation (i.e. a month dormant) that could be moved to a talk page, please do so, and add "{{swept}}" there, to note that it has been swept in from the pub. Try to place it on the discussion page roughly in chronological order.
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Global bot policy changes[edit]

I'm not sure what our policy on global bots should be. Some like the Community Tech bot that gives the message "A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion" are really useful, but are there any we'd want to block? Has anyone been keeping track of all the global bots? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:23, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
It'd be easier if the Meta userpages for the global bots described their function, but many don't. (Do we have any local bots here?) I've had experiences with problematic bots on other projects; I can't think of any prior experiences with global bots, problematic or otherwise. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 05:15, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
There are local bots here, but I'm not sure which ones been run lately, other than the graffiti wall reversion bot. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:28, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
I don't remember any problems over here, so I suppose there haven't been any major ones. Watching the bot discussions would do no harm, although I trust the global bot users to be sensible and considerate. –LPfi (talk) 10:29, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
I agree with LPfi. If anyone notices any issues or has any concerns about a global bot, they can always start a discussion here at the pub. Off the top of my head I can't think of any problems I've noticed related to global bots, here or on the other wikis I frequent, so it seems to me the folks at Meta make sensible decisions about whether to approve them. When I notice global bots at work, they usually seem to be doing uncontroversial crosswiki maintenance (for example, keeping interwiki links and image filenames up to date). In an emergency, a malfunctioning or problematic bot can be blocked by any admin. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:54, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
I agree that there haven't been problems so far. It's just that the word "changes" focused my mind a little. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:23, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
That makes sense. Rereading my comment, I might have come across too strong. No harm in raising the question. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:29, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
I didn't think you came across too strong at all, no worries! Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:30, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
Once the interlanguage links moved to Wikidata, the global bot policy became less than useful, to the point that some editors have run bots without authorization or disclosure, because (a) the work really needed to be done, and (b) it didn't involve repairing Special:DoubleRedirects, which was the only remaining approved task according to the global bot policy. As an example, the WMF's Parsing team identified some wikitext errors few years ago (remember Special:LintErrors?), and much of that could be fixed by bot. Some smaller wikis didn't have enough volunteers to do it, and the global bot policy didn't approve it. Everyone wanted the errors fixed, so some bot ops did it "unofficially". There were no complaints.
I agree with LPfi: I trust the global bot folks to be sensible. Also, if they do accidentally screw up, any admin can block the bot locally. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:56, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
@WhatamIdoing: I'm curious - is User:CommonsDelinker considered a global bot? If the only remaining approved task was double redirects, how has it been allowed to operate? —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:36, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
Would I count it that way? Yes. The policy has been so broken in practice that nobody's been enforcing the policy. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:49, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

GFDL-only local uploads[edit]

I'm curious about if we should have a local upload policy for files uploaded under the GNU Free Documentation License alone. It's a copyleft license and many images across projects are uploaded with it, but Commons has phased out GFDL and no longer permits the uploading of new files licensed under it (old ones are grandfathered). I've been making banners lately, and I've made a pretty good one for Sale (Victoria), but noticed after creating that the Commons file it was derived from was GFDL-licensed -- meaning I can't upload it there. Most of the projects I know of with local uploads permit GFDL uploads and treat them as other free images are treated, so I'd support us having that policy. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 08:49, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Support – Considering that we don't have to go cross-wiki to do this, I'd support it. SHB2000 (talk) 10:06, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Thinking about and expanding on this proposal, I think a significant objection people might raise would be using this as a loophole to preferentially upload free files to Wikivoyage rather than Commons by granting them a free license Commons doesn't use. Personally I don't think "preferring local uploads" is a huge issue -- people have reasons for what they do -- and GFDL files can be used cross-wiki by uploading them to other projects that accept them. However, it is something there are reasons to oppose, and Wikivoyage generally has a culture of only having local uploads when absolutely necessary.
I'd be inclined to say there's no reason to put a hard limit on "if something isn't in this category you must upload it to Commons" rather than "we prefer anything that doesn't have to be GFDL go to Commons", but similarly I have absolutely no qualms with a hard rule as to when and where we could make local GFDL uploads. I'm happy to have a position that says we can have GFDL uploads that are either Wikivoyage-related derivative works of a pre-existing GFDL file (so the Sale banner, for instance) or cross-project imports of GFDL files relevant to Wikivoyage (as an example, there's a couple hundred or so GFDL files on the English Wikipedia of towns and locales around the Western United States that would be pretty excellent to have here and that I plan to import several of if we decide to implement GFDL local uploads) if people want those restrictions/clarifications.
Also, more broadly, I've been thinking about our local image licensing templates -- which are currently rarely used, but will be moreso should this get consensus. Right now, they all have very small text (80% of normal size). This strikes me as an accessibility issue, as they're tough to read even with normal vision and could be unreadable with poor vision. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 13:38, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
By my reading of commons:Commons:Licensing#GNU_Free_Documentation_License, you can upload the banner on Commons, as the photo was (I presume) licensed before 2018. If that's correct, I think there is no need for a special local upload policy for GFDL. —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:18, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
I don't think that permits new derivative works of pre-2018 uploads, and it definitely doesn't permit transferring other local files that I'd want to use on Wikivoyage licensed after that time. Having poked around a bit, it seems we have a couple GFDL local uploads already, so it might be worth formalizing. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 05:48, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Hello! GFDL is not a very good license for photos, video and audio. That is why WMF decided that wiki projects should not use GFDL as the only license. They did not forbid it completely but left it for the wikis to decide.
commons:Commons:Licensing#GNU_Free_Documentation_License mention "licensed on or after 15 October 2018" so if a file is uploaded to Commons or any other wiki and licensed GFDL before that date then it is still possible to upload a crop of the file to Commons. It is also possible to move a file from to Commons if the file was uploaded before that date.
So I do not think there is any reason to allow local uploads of files licensed GFDL. --MGA73 (talk) 18:16, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification. I just stumbled across this page, which is worth reading too: Wikivoyage:Why Wikivoyage isn't GFDL. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:43, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Line numbering coming soon to all wikis[edit]

-- Johanna Strodt (WMDE) 15:08, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Finally! SHB2000 (talk) 02:51, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
@SHB2000, please tell me more. I would have expected editors to either not notice (because we're not using CodeMirror) or to be irritated (because the line number clutter up the interface). WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:34, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
It ain't live yet. I'll decide then whether to be irritated or not.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:48, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
When I did my first edit 12 mo. ago, I was surprised that it didn't have one, considering C, python, BF and javascript, all do SHB2000 (talk) 21:36, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
No, they don't. It's just your editor adding them. The only programming language with line numbers that I know is BASIC. But the reasons your editor adds them might be good reasons for the wiki editor to add them too. –LPfi (talk) 14:14, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

It's the 15th, where's the line numbering??? SHB2000 (talk) 00:53, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

m:WMDE Technical Wishes/Line Numbering#Status and roadmap says, "only for the template namespace" "Deployment on more namespaces is planned for the near future" Nelson Ricardo (talk) 01:34, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Restaurants in hotels[edit]

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I recall a guideline stating that if a hotel with a Sleep listing has a restaurant, the restaurant does not get its own separate Eat listing. I cannot find this guideline, so I might be wrong. I would appreciate any guidance on this. Thanks! Nelson Ricardo (talk) 22:31, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

That's the rule. The exception is if the restaurant is well-known in its own right, such as if over half the customers typically are not hotel guests. See the first entry at Wikivoyage:Don't tout#Identifying touting. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:28, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
Thank you. So, I guess it's okay if I revert this reversion? Nelson Ricardo (talk) 23:59, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
How well-known is that restaurant and are most of the customers generally not hotel patrons? Also, that's not a full listing but a pointer. "Gets great reviews" without specifying a professional reviewer or reviewing organization, however, is touting and should be removed no matter what. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:07, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
I know nothing about the place. I'm fixing London listings that lack coordinates. I'll remove this one. Thanks for your help. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 00:14, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
A word of caution: User:ThunderingTyphoons! may know something about the place. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:28, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
I've often summarized opinions from a range of user-review sites as "gets good reviews" or the like. Is that unacceptable now? Powers (talk) 02:26, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
See Wikivoyage:Words to avoid: "approved by TripAdvisor, Or Yelp. Or Facebook. Or Twitter. Or any other random website which relies on user-supplied content instead of sending its staff out to inspect restaurants and hotels under established criteria." If you can't specify which random website something "gets good reviews" on, how is it OK to be even vaguer about it? If we're going to allow such language, we should change our policies and allow the mention of reviews on all those sites and others, but I don't think I'd support such a change in style and guidelines. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:03, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
I think that if I were looking at a listing, that it would be more helpful to me to read "Good service" or "Good food" or "Good location" than "Good reviews". So maybe, if possible, mention a theme that appears in those good reviews? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:19, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ @Nricardo: Either ask User:ThunderingTyphoons! or User: (our most active and reliable IP user) SHB2000 (talk) 12:52, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

@Nricardo, SHB2000: I believe you mean this policy. 12:54, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
No, I pinged you because you know better about london regarding Nelson's comment at 0014h. SHB2000 (talk) 12:58, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
@SHB2000: I see. In that case, I agree with Ikan Kekek. 13:06, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
I agree with WhatamIdoing that it's OK to mention that customers have mentioned x, y or z about a restaurant or bar. That's substantive and different from according unwarranted deference to ratings on sites like Yelp that are by non-experts and have been manipulated for profit in the past. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:23, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
Sure, but how do we get that information without going to places like Yelp or TripAdvisor? (Also, an aside: is comment threading not allowed anymore?) Powers (talk) 22:05, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
Newspapers, local wikis and blogs, you or people you know, food discussion boards, etc., etc. If we're relying completely on Yelp and Tripadvisor, we should end our policy on not linking to them and substitute links to their sections for each destination for our content. I don't understand your question about comment threading. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:19, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
By 'comment threading', I meant using indentation to indicate which previous comment a new comment is in reply to. There is such a preference here for continuous indentation that I had a previous comment reindented. As for reviews, I don't know why local wikis and blogs or "food discussion boards" (?) are better sources for general sentiment than Yelp or TripAdvisor. Powers (talk) 01:00, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
Should we resume this discussion at Wikivoyage talk:External links? Yelp and Tripadvisor are there to make a buck, and Yelp in particular is known to have put its thumbs on ratings. But my larger point is if all our content is really from other sites, what's the darn point of this site? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:40, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
I will tell you that the great majority of the restaurants and bars I have added listings for are establishments I have personally patronized and therefore am confident I can describe fairly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:42, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
That is the ideal way, but we don't have enough editors to cover the world through own experiences, and I've understood it is acceptable to do armchair research. Even when using TripAdvisor & co, one can make an own assessment on what to believe (and combine impressions from several sites). Reviews that don't tell what was good and pure stars are little worth, but many people praising the food in their own words are an indication of something (I would tone down the praise, but might mention a point or two that seemed agreed on). Independent forums may be better, but not all off the beaten path eateries are discussed in gourmet fora. (About moving the discussion: let's do that afterwards.) –LPfi (talk) 04:40, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Angler (the original London restaurant in question) has one Michelin star, so is most definitely worthy of its own listing under 'Eat'. I agree the wording that "it gets great reviews" was ambiguous and should be changed, but it's clear that whoever wrote it meant "great reviews (from food critics and other influential people in the dining industry)" not simply a good Tripadvisor score. So unless there are other objections, I'll restore the listing with the needed improvements.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:49, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

I fairly often use a variety of travel websites for armchair research. I don't use the stars/rating numbers. I tend to use them to look for very specific things: Is it noisy? Do they take credit cards? Is there a public restroom? Is this a good place for kids? Is parking a problem? If a particular detail gets mentioned frequently (e.g., a popular dish at a restaurant), then I might mention that, too. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:11, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
A restaurant that has a Michelin star has been given an imprimatur by the most famous professional restaurant-rating organization in the world. Its Michelin star should be mentioned, not the vague phrase "it gets great reviews". And it absolutely should have a listing. No way should a Michelin-starred restaurant be subsumed into a "Sleep" listing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:49, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Wikivoyage discussion for m:Universal Code of Conduct/2021 consultations[edit]

Formerly Invitation to m:Talk:Universal Code of Conduct/2021 consultations/Discussion, where comments can also be left

I am interested in hearing the input of Wikivoyage users about the application of the Universal Code of Conduct, especially from the perspective of interactions on Wikivoyage. Xeno (WMF) (talk) 23:59, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Hi, Xeno. This is a small wiki, and that probably makes it harder for harassers to hide among a crowd, as it's still pretty possible for users to patrol all recent changes every day (at most, some will patrol some edits and others will patrol others, but the number of new edits isn't crushing). We don't tolerate harassment. People who threaten violence or lawsuits against other Wikivoyagers are blocked indefinitely (or if IP addresses, for a month or more, as IP addresses are not blocked permanently). People who are not acting threatening but are for example making life miserable for valuable content-providers by edit warring and writing nasty edit summaries are engaged in discussion and blocked when necessary, as we want to support users who are making good edits. Most of the harassment on this site is from vandals and trolls, most of them cross-wiki, and that's a problem that WMF should continue to work hard on because it really makes things less fun around here. Of course there are also misunderstandings and people who think any reversions or further edits to their work constitute harassment per se. If you engage in any moderation, you know that kind of thing goes with the territory, and we try to smooth over hard feelings, but there are limitations to the faceless communications we engage in here and if push comes to shove on matters of site policy, guidelines and basic style, the existing consensus and procedures by which a new consensus might be formed generally have to be enforced against edit warriors and people who make huge unilateral changes to site organization and the like, because as some of us are old enough to remember, most Usenet newsgroups proved the theory that if anyone can post any kind of thing they want any time with no moderation, a venue ends up as a cesspool of spam, flaming, trolling and vandalism.
Is this the kind of answer you were looking for? Any other questions we could address? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:21, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
This is quite useful! I'm glad to hear of the positive interactions on this project. From the perspective of a smaller wiki, what more could be done to help make dealing with cross-wiki abuse easier to address when it lands here? Xeno (WMF) (talk) 00:35, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
That's a technical matter better not discussed openly. And don't get me wrong, there are certainly conflicts here, and there are times when people have frayed nerves or otherwise misunderstand people's intentions, and as we're all human, it shouldn't be surprising that many people who have lots of interactions with other users have probably been guilty of misjudgment, overreaction, a bit of intemperance or unintentional offense, yours truly certainly not excepted, but we try to advise each other when we think things may have gone overboard, etc.
Part of the history of this site is that we used to let edit warriors run rampant for years, and that chased away several very valuable members including long-time admins. We therefore thrashed out a policy of Wikivoyage:How to handle unwanted edits#Escalating user blocks to deal with problem users who unilaterally buck consensus to edit war or otherwise hassle people in a way that makes the site unpleasant. I think most of us long-timers consider such policies part of the growing pains of the site. When then-Wikitravel was a tiny backwater, it could afford to have an indulgent policy toward vandals and disruptive gadflies. Wikivoyage still welcomes original thinking when not introduced through edit warring and insulting remarks, though we could probably be better in that regard (there is somewhat of a status quo bias on all wikis, I suppose, by the nature of consensus, and there is somewhat of one here), but we learned the hard way that discussion is great but that users have to be willing to tolerate consensuses that are contrary to our preferences and pick their spots for when to start or resume arguments for changes in site organization, guidelines or style, which should be or at least eventually go on the appropriate pages. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:38, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
Another way of looking at his question (he's w:en:User:Xeno in his real-wiki life, by the way):
What could we do to make some of the struggling wikis be more like this one? We have wikis that try to exclude editors because they live in the "wrong" location or have the "wrong" religious affiliation or the "wrong" political view. We men who get called "girls" as part of a campaign to drive them away. We have women who get rape threats because they dared to disagree. Some of these communities are a mess. What advice could we give them, to help them through their problems and their growing pains? WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:22, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
Which wikis are trying to exclude people and being abusive toward them on those bases? That's shocking! My immediate reaction is that I wouldn't give advice to such wikis but would instead recommend for them to get an ultimatum from the WMF that they have x-amount of time to shape up, and otherwise, they'll be taken over from outside and those engaging in such abuses will be banned - or if that's too much work for stewards, expel such wikis from the Wikimedia Movement, as the WMF shouldn't associate itself with that kind of behavior. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:49, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
Appalling behaviour. These communities should be ashamed of themselves and definitely get expelled from the WMF movement. SHB2000 (talk | contribs) 22:41, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
It's not "the WMF movement". It's the Wikimedia movement, and the WMF is only one part of it. (The one with the most money, but not the one with the most control.) But: don't you think that before you expel whole communities that you should write down the rules? And take into account some other factors, like whether the community supports that behavior, or if it's something they've tried to stop? For example, I know a woman who gets rape threats. (These were not made-up examples.) She's an admin at the English Wikipedia. Would you expel the entire English Wikipedia, just because they haven't been able to stop one criminal? WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:59, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
No, I wouldn't, and I agree with your points. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:37, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
I got the impression that you talked about small wikis dominated by users with that kind of behaviour. For ones with a larger editor base, where most do not support the harassment, closing them down is obviously a suboptimal solution, with grave problems (the self-government of communities is important). I suppose IK gives some valuable advice above, from the history of WV.
I have my background on sv-wp, with, I think, some 100 active regulars. Like here, I think most people there really try to cooperate for the good of the project and the community. We have some problems with groups and individuals with an agenda, especially some connected to the Swedish populist party, who manage to balance their edits enough not to be blocked, but often reverted, with endless discussions. Then we have some good-faith editors incapable of following the social norms (easily provoked, and easily taking to ad hominem arguments). I optimistically think we are doing a good job, having enough of us taking the fights so that those who would be vulnerable don't have to. Handling these users is a delicate balance, and some of them regularly get blocked. I am afraid hard rules imposed by the WMF might make it easier to intentionally provoke these users to get them banned (even those who otherwise don't bother anybody), and more difficult to apply one's best judgement as admin.
One choice that might have been important is to have admins have to pass a vote yearly. You normally get 30–40 support and 0–2 oppose every year, but there is much less drama when somebody loses trust than if you would have to start a process to remove the status. There are just fewer support votes and more oppose votes, and everybody knows why (there would be a discussion also, but one much less heated than on en-wp; you need 3/4 to pass, so 20 support and 8 oppose means failing).
–LPfi (talk) 10:15, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
A yearly vote on continuing or ending admin status (and I guess bureaucrats, stewards, etc.?) is an interesting idea and I could see how it could be useful on large wikis. I feel like it might just take up unnecessary time here and won't produce any desysopping except of inactive admins (with perhaps a somewhat more stringent standard of activity than we currently apply), but if you feel like it could be useful here, let's take up the idea at Wikivoyage talk:User rights nominations. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:58, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
I haven't seen any need for it here – I don't know what drama around our admins wood look like. On sv-wp it was introduced after drama around a few admins (I think – it was before my time). At least one regular has been turned down with the new system on his nth re-election for not being enough keen-eared, and he has stayed around writing articles and doing unprivileged administrative tasks. I'd recommend the system for any middle size wiki, and once in a while I miss it e.g. on Commons, where I think some admins have become presumptuous. On sv-wp I don't think it takes up much time. Casting a vote takes less time than tidying a listing, and unless there are unusually many oppose votes you don't have to weight in on every election (30–40 votes by 100 regulars shows not everybody does, I suppose there are more people who lurk, and will cast a vote if there are irregularities). I think the odd discussion helps vent any critic there may be, and the voting and comments confirm your status as actively trusted by the community – these aspects grow more important with the size of the wiki. –LPfi (talk) 14:49, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
I'm not sure that an annual re-election is needed here, but I don't object in principle, and I do suggest that if we want one, then it would be better to create such a process now than to wait until there is a problem. I heard of a California city that created a protest-related rule a while ago (something like "you can protest anyone you want, but you can't keep their neighbors awake all night"), and their reason for doing it at that time was because there weren't any protests happening then, so the rule couldn't be "about" a particular person/cause/protest. I think that was smart of them, and, if we are to have any such rule, then I think we should follow their example.
LPfi, I'm not sure that the WMF Board is creating "hard rules". It's not my project (or my team's, or even my department's), but my impression is that this is more or less like when they imposed the BLP rules years ago. They named some basic principles (they're in favor of helping newcomers and against vandalism – aren't we all?), but they're not making detailed rules. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:01, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
LPfi, how much bigger is sv.wp than en.voy? WhatamIdoing, the bias on Wikivoyage has been not to make changes that are considered to be solutions in search of a problem. Of course that's not proactive, but people here generally aren't willing to spend the time to discuss and debate things that aren't (yet) needed and prefer to spend the time working on the travel guide. And the problem I'd immediately see would be to determine at which point yearly (re)votes on admins and bureaucrats would be triggered. Would we have to use some kind of arbitrary metric of website size? I don't object to the idea in principle, either, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:09, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
Sounds sensible. Yes, making up the rules before they are needed avoids a lot of drama – if you can foresee the need. And not creating hard rules sounds good, if there is a community that can handle the issues flexibly.
Swedish Wikipedia has, according to WMF statistics: 620 active editors, 100 very active editors and 120,000 edits a month (→ 4,000 a day, 150 an hour). English Wikivoyage has about 150 active editors, 35 very active editors and 20,000 edits a month. So sv-wp is three to six times bigger. On sv-wp the elections are four times a year (for 4·15 admins or so). Here once a year could suffice, but not having to vote on others when one's own term is at play is good. It could be a problem if most voters are admins themselves, as on sv-wp, which is big enough that sporadic users could get the impression of a cabal – sv-wp gets such accusations from time to time, and even if they are mostly from trolls, it is good to be able to show clear papers. Here i don't think trustworthiness is an issue, but it can still feel awkward in some situations.
My hesitation on recommending the system for us here is because I don't trust the dynamics to be the same. I think the 0–2 oppose votes are important: they show it is OK not to support everyone. There are regularly some conflicts that make those votes understandable (harsh tone and perceived bias during edit wars etc.). We have some conflicts also on Wikivoyage, but they are of a different nature.
–LPfi (talk) 20:17, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
Yes, it'd be good to have a certain amount of oppose votes, as a sort of normal background noise. Otherwise people might feel singled out.
Another number to consider: The Swedish Wikipedia has 62 admins right now, and the English Wikivoyage has 48. I suspect that the annual re-election process means that the Swedish Wikivoyage has fewer admins than it would otherwise, as less active editors would not choose to stand for re-election. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:36, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
← Hey all, I've been following along and wanted to thank everyone for the great comments so far. I noticed a question, and can refer to an essay that was linked in the EnWp version of this consultation: m:User:Rschen7754/Help, my wiki went rogue! which can provide some context.
Let me know if you have any more thoughts about this, or answers to the other key questions being asked to participants of all Wikimedia projects.
I'm intrigued by the mention below of "sweeping"! Is that something that originated here? Where will this thread be swept off to, I wonder!
Thinking more about advice this community can offer, being more closely-knit:
In what ways should reporting pathways provide for mediation, reform, or guidance about acceptable behaviours? Xeno (WMF) (talk) 00:55, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
Threads are swept to talk pages where they're particularly relevant after they've been inactive for some time in the pub. This thread won't be swept anywhere until it's inactive for several weeks. I don't know where it would be swept.
That essay by Rschen7754 is very interesting. On this site, I can think of only one user who was desysopped on en.voy for reasons other than 2 or more years of inactivity or their own request, and that user continued to be an extremely constructive content-provider, was resysopped a couple of years later, and served in an exemplary fashion without any further incident until he got too busy in real life to continue. Desysopping is discussed at Wikivoyage talk:User rights nominations when it's applied to a list of inactive admins. If someone wanted to nominate an admin, bureaucrat, etc. for desysopping, they would do so at Wikivoyage:User rights nominations, but that's not specifically mentioned there, and if it were, I think it would attract a lot of trolls and vanishingly few good-faith nominations for desysopping. Do you have an opinion about this? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:41, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
A quick thought about reporting harassment: Users here who are experiencing harassment should report it to any admin, but at this point, it's most likely to be coming from a banned user who constantly creates new sockpuppets and sends crazy rants by email. If they believe an admin is harassing them, especially if they get no resolution from discussing it with the admin in question, they should report that to any other admin (but in our experience, it's way more likely that there's been a misunderstanding or the user objects to the application of site policies such as don't tout or to any editing of their work). Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:48, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Make working with templates easier: Does English Wikivoyage want to have early access to several improvements?[edit]

I love templates hexagon.png

Hello! Our team, Wikimedia Germany’s Technical Wishes project, is developing a series of improvements to make working with templates easier. Maybe you’ve already heard of some of the projects that have recently been deployed: [1] [2] [3]. We plan to release more improvements to make working with templates easier over the course of this year:

Now we’re looking for a few wikis who want to be the first to benefit from these changes, and ideally that includes a few of Wikipedia's sister projects. If your wiki community is interested, all the improvements listed above would be deployed to your wiki in a series of releases, likely between May and July 2021. Of course, each deployment would be announced beforehand.

If English Wikivoyage is interested to have early access to these improvements, give me a ping here, or let me know on my talk page. It would be great to have English Wikivoyage on board! -- Best, Johanna Strodt (WMDE) (talk) 16:12, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

I'd think Wikivoyage could be a good testbed for some of these changes, as our use of templates is both broad and shallow -- only a few, widely-used templates. Powers (talk) 17:49, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
@Johanna Strodt (WMDE), has your team spent much time editing Wikivoyage? I'm sure we could put together a little video-based editing party if the team wanted to explore how we do things here.
We're a little strange about templates here. We use them a lot, but we only use about six or eight of them in articles. The things that would be most useful to us here are probably phab:T96710 (drop-down menu of our most commonly used templates VisualEditor, to match what we've got in the 2010 wikitext editor) and phab:T275457 (we use complex but extremely predictable formatting, which the visual editor screws up). WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:17, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
@WhatamIdoing: Thanks for your remarks and for the offer! I'm sorry for replying so late, there's a lot going on right now. As for the most useful changes for this wiki, we have already decided which projects we'll be working on in our focus area Templates. And we hope those will be helpful for Wikivoyage as well. I have forwarded your wishes anyway, it's good to have them in mind in case we come across potential opportunities for improvement. -- Best, 10:48, 28 April 2021 (UTC) —The preceding comment was added by Johanna Strodt (WMDE) (talk • contribs)
Maybe log in and sign that comment?--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:07, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
Hi ThunderingTyphoons!, I deliverately didn't because – at least in dewiki – it's common practice to use a template like {{unsigned}}, which is why I did that. -- Best, Johanna Strodt (WMDE) (talk) 08:37, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
Sorry, that makes no sense. You made the comment while logged out, so nobody knew who was writing.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:44, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
@ThunderingTyphoons!: Yes, not signing the comment was a mistake. I tried to fix it by adding the {{unsigned}} template so people would know it was me. In dewiki it's common practice not to sign a comment when you forgot to sign it before, but to use such a template instead. -- Best, Johanna Strodt (WMDE) (talk) 09:22, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
Thanks.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:42, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Spinoff article on foreign colonial possessions and concessions in China[edit]

I wonder if this article is worth creating, since there were many countries, among them the United Kingdom, the United States, France, Germany, Italy, Russia, Japan, Austria-Hungary, Belgium and Portugal, that established colonies in China, and each of those countries would have left its own cultural footprint behind. As such, I think this is a potentially viable travel topic where we can cover destinations in China where you can go and see the legacy of colonial rule, and of course some really pretty colonial buildings as well. If the community thinks this will be a good article to start, one thing we could discuss is how we should name the article. "Colonialism in China" or "Foreign colonies and concessions in China" are some of the names I can think of. "China's Century of Humiliation" is another potential name for it, though I am concerned that this name might be too politically loaded. The dog2 (talk) 16:45, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

That last name doesn't appeal to me.
I wonder whether one article about colonialism in general would be more interesting, or separate articles about each colonizer. I'm thinking that "My country in China" might be more interesting to a traveler than an article covering an assortment of countries. (Or maybe we want all of the above?) WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:12, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
An article like this could actually be useful for someone who wants to travel around China to explore the legacy of colonialism, as it can point you to places to go to explore that legacy. So for instance you could go to Weihai to see British colonial buildings, Dalian and Harbin for Russian colonial buildings, Qingdao for German colonial buildings, Zhanjiang for French colonial buildings and so on. But that said, I'm also open to an article about colonialism in general on a global scale. We do cover some aspects of colonialism in the Age of Discovery article. The main issue is that such an article would be very long, since almost every country outside Europe (with a few exceptions like Thailand and Japan) had been a colony at some point in the 15th to 20th centuries. The dog2 (talk) 20:04, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
If the article is likely to be very long, WhatamIdoing's idea is better. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:35, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
@Ikan Kekek: One of WhatamIdoing's suggestions was to create an article about colonialism in general on a global scale. I'm concerned that an article like that will be too long, which is why I would prefer to have an article about colonialism in China specifically, rather than one about colonialism in general, as it would be much more manageable. And given the number of colonial powers that were in China, there is potentially enough content to justify an article about that. If we want separate articles about each colonial power in China, then there might not be enough content for some of the smaller colonial powers like say, Belgium. The dog2 (talk) 20:51, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
I see. Sure, start the article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:08, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
I think this is a good idea for a travel topic, and I think Foreign colonies and concessions in China is by far the best of the three titles suggested above. Please make sure to keep the article focused on travel. —Granger (talk · contribs) 19:02, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Suggested Values[edit]

Timur Vorkul (WMDE) 14:08, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

@SHB2000: This might make it easier to just add a “Variation” parameter on the Barncompass template (as discussed on my talk page). 14:37, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Okay, probably when I come back on the 1st. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 21:20, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
@SHB2000: Although as you mentioned on my talk page, it might just be easier to keep them as separate templates. 05:19, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
And how am I meant to do it without affecting the "Barncompass" template. I could create a new one called Template:BC but, is it worth the change? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 06:25, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
@SHB2000: Probably not. 06:31, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
And what'll be the default one? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 09:27, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Allowing global sysops on this wiki[edit]

Hi, I propose allowing Global Sysops to work on this wiki. It is currently not enabled because the community has more than 10 admins/3 active sysops, but I strongly recommend that the community opt-in because they often help in combating spam and vandalism (eg GRP). As an en.wikibooks admin, I can attest to the work they do and have no issues with them at all. Thanks in advance, and please ping me if you need further input, since I don't watch this page.

P.S: Global sysops won't interfere with normal Wikivoyage matters (for instance they do not have access to Special:UserRights) - their role is codified in the policy page and is more or less handling spam or vandalism. This wiki can enact a global rights policy if needed. They'll only help you. Leaderboard (talk) 12:48, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Seems like a compelling argument. Was there ever a discussion in this community about prohibiting Global Sysops here? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:45, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
I support this. Thanks for bringing it up, Leaderboard. —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:02, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
I also think this is a good idea, particularly regarding vandals that are active on several projects simultaneously; just makes it easier to shut them down. Antandrus (talk) 16:10, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
I have to say that there's one specific global sysop who, if they had any administrative powers at Wikivoyage, I would likely leave the project. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 16:22, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Sure, why should we not allow global sysops clamping down vandalism here if they come across it? --Ypsilon (talk) 17:16, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

There's at least one global sysop, who I do not plan to name to protect their privacy, who from experience elsewhere I hold absolutely no trust in and do not think should be holding any mop-role. I am uncomfortable acting on projects where they hold such roles, and in particular find the relative opacity of global sysops (who tend to just dip in and out of a project rather than being consistently contactable on them) to outweigh the role's intentionally limited scope in terms of trust and communication, as it makes it difficult to discuss disputed or inappropriate actions. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 17:41, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
@Vaticidalprophet: If you have a genuine reason that a particular GS should not be operating here, your wiki can come up with a global rights policy that would require GS to stop acting if asked to by an admin (this is the case in en.wikibooks). Secondly, you can consider filing a Meta Request for Comments or contacting a steward - GS are held to a high standard and I'm aware of GS having their rights revoked for relatively minor misuse. This also applies to contact - at the very least you should be able to contact a GS at meta (and they are also required to have a user page). Leaderboard (talk) 18:26, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
I don't expect a request to remove the relevant user's mop likely to pass, and I do expect one to be a clusterstorm I don't want to start. I'm not a local sysop, and I'm too drama-avoidant to ask one. I square those circles by just not participating on GS projects. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 18:39, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
To be clear: The difference would be that currently, stewards have the right to rollback edits and block accounts on this wiki, but the proposal is to allow another class of users who are not stewards but global sysops to rollback vandalism and spam, though they won't have the power to block any user. That seems OK to me. I would not want to lose Vaticidalprophet's participation, though. Is it that you don't believe one of the global sysops will restrict themselves to rolling back only vandalism and spam? I don't think it works for you to be opaque about who this individual is, do nothing about it, and just threaten to leave this project if we accept more help with spam and vandalism. I urge you to address what's concerning you by starting a thread on the most appropriate Wikivoyage talk page, which I suppose would be Wikivoyage talk:User rights nominations. You need to name the individual in question and provide some information about what they've done that's objectionable if you'd like admins on this site to assist you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:50, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
You could also report any GS actions you see objectionable and let us discuss whether we agree. Then you don't have to take action at Meta yourself. Better yet, tell now what kind of objectionable things you think they might do. –LPfi (talk) 19:54, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
"Better yet, tell now what kind of objectionable things you think they might do" -- I'm concerned about a history of overly harsh/uncivil edit summaries and responses, and particularly of deploying those responses to edits that were closer to wording disputes or malformed but good-faith technical requests than to actual spamdalism. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 20:15, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
That kind of behavior can be a significant problem, but semi-accusing someone in public can be a problem, too. Would you be willing to e-mail more information to an admin? WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:31, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
I emailed more info to an admin and got, paraphrased, "I can't do anything in email, talk publicly", which was when I made that comment. I have to confess to being a little frustrated by the appearance of ping-ponging, even though I know it's only an appearance. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 23:54, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
I hope you don't mind my correcting the record. I said I can't do anything by myself. A single admin does not constitute a consensus. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:46, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
WhatamIdoing, what do you think a single admin can do, other than pledge to watch the edits of the global sysop in question? We try to keep things as transparent as possible on this site, except when dealing with matters of security that need to be kept private and hiding edits that violate privacy, contain threats or libel or certain kinds of vandalism. We don't discuss this kind of thing in private, but if it's considered harassment, I guess there should be a way to do that. Fellow admins, should we discuss this by email? What would you like to do? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:54, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
I should say, I retain a strong preference for airing this publicly and dealing with it openly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:56, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
@Ikan Kekek: Airing an issue publicly is always the best approach, but the decision on this rests with Vaticidalprophet. The question is whether you believe, based on what VP has told you, that the issue with the specific sysop is sufficient to prevent us from giving global sysops the power to rollback vandalism and spam. I trust your judgment on this. If you want other opinions, though, then asking VP to permit you to send the email to other admins, or to post it here, would be the next step. Ground Zero (talk) 02:04, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
The thing is, I'm not sure. Vaticidalprophet, how would you like to proceed? I'd be willing to copy your emails and send them to some other admins for more opinions if you like (I don't think my hands would appreciate copying them and sending them to every one), but the easiest way to get the opinions of the community is definitely to air this publicly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:42, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
I think that any single admin can be a second set of eyes, to look over the information and decide whether some further discussion or action might be appropriate. That might involve contacting other people (e.g., stewards or another global sysop), sharing a public opinion about whether the facts seems concerning to you individually, engaging the GS process about whether this person should continue to participate in that way, or other actions that seem appropriate based upon an independent evaluation of the facts.
We have had a problem with people (at other wikis) who get in trouble and then use selective quotations and links to incomplete discussions to discredit anyone who accuses them of bad behavior. Because of this, I think that "public trials" based on a single editor's concerns should be avoided when reasonably feasible. It is often helpful to get a second person's opinion before posting names publicly, and we need to remember that posts on public pages are on the internet forever. I appreciate Vaticidalprophet's restraint in this matter. I hope that we will in the future make it easier for editors to seek advice from the people they trust. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:17, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
@Ikan Kekek: A correction to a couple of your notes:
  • "stewards have the right to rollback edits and block accounts on this wiki" - they technically can block accounts, but are not supposed to unless in the case of a serious emergency (such as a compromised account going rogue). If this proposal passes, stewards will be able to block users for the same reasons that global sysops can.
  • "allow another class of users who are not stewards but global sysops to rollback vandalism and spam, though they won't have the power to block any user." - that is not quite correct. You've actually mentioned global rollback, users of which are allowed to rollback, but not block, on every WMF wiki including this (unlike GS, there is no opt-out option). The key thing global sysops can do is actually blocking, deleting and other sysop-level actions. What they cannot do is, for instance, change user rights or interfere in normal Wikivoyage matters. Leaderboard (talk) 07:57, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
  • I hope people see this threading (we usually just put the last reply last). Thanks for the clarifications. I consider blocking an account a change in user rights and I'll bet many other readers do, too. I gather you're talking about changing the status of an account to, say, autopatroller or admin. I would never expect someone from outside Wikivoyage to do that kind of thing. In terms of stewards, they have come here and very helpfully blocked cross-wiki vandals, so it makes a lot of sense that I consider them to have the right to block accounts on this wiki. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:28, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
    @Ikan Kekek: Actually, they do no blocking here. The help you refer to involves blocking/locking globally, and that is done at Meta. Stewards will not generally block an account on Wikivoyage locally unless there is an exceptionally strong reason to, if global sysops cannot do the same thing. Leaderboard (talk) 07:29, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘Just for the record, yes, I am happy for you to copy those emails, and I apologise for inaccuracies in my summary of your response; I was trying to be as nonspecific as possible and accidentally erred into wrong specifics. I'm not quite in a position to write at length today and am unsure when I will be, but I am absolutely fine with (and noted at the time) transparency about the email's contents in the context of admin-to-admin communication, including if it closes with the outcome of "we don't think this means we shouldn't have GS at all". I continue to be unsure about the virtue of saying in public what I said in confidence for reasons noted both in the emails and by WAID. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 07:06, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

OK. Maybe I can send some emails to a few admins and other admins could choose to share those with other admins. I'd normally want the opinion of trusted non-admins, too, though. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:31, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
Without knowing specifics: I suppose a GS would interfere mostly with users that get caught by filters for globally banned users and vandalism. The issue would be harsh language against false-positive new editors, including borderline test edits. I don't know whether harsh language from a GS is much worse than the same from a regular or regular-posing troll – the newbie would not see the difference. When it comes to more seasoned editors, I suppose the issues can be sorted out afterwards, and the problem GS could be asked to keep away even if there would not be reason enough to go to Meta. There might of course be problems that haven't some to my mind. –LPfi (talk) 07:55, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
@LPfi: In my experience, the issue you have described is not likely to occur, as they don't usually warn users for the first test edit or so. Leaderboard (talk) 08:04, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
@Ikan Kekek: Thanks for sending a copy of the email. I'm not particularly concerned about this. The diffs in the email have harshly worded edit summaries, yes, but they strike me as not particularly relevant to the GS discussion, because they are ordinary edits on en.wikipedia, not admin actions with the GS user right. Any user is already free to come to Wikivoyage and revert unhelpful edits, they don't need GS permissions for that. Let's give the GS thing a shot, and if problems arise we can reconsider. The Wikibooks-style policy, where local admins can ask global sysops to stop using their user rights here, seems like a good idea. And I agree with Ikan Kekek that it would be better to have an open discussion instead of sending diffs around through email. —Granger (talk · contribs) 10:11, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
I agree with Granger. If such careless edit summaries became a problem on Wikivoyage, I wouldn't hesitate to ask their author to be more considerate. Most reasonable people are willing to change once they're made aware that their behaviour is upsetting people. In the very unlikely scenario that an unreasonable GS refused to edit more respectfully, through some misguided superiority complex or whatever, then I'm sure we could take action one way or another. There's no realistic scenario whereby a GS is harming Wikivoyage, and the WV community is powerless to intervene. The threat of losing a good contributor notwithstanding, I think the definite benefits of allowing global sysops far outweigh the possible costs.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:27, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
I understand Vaticidalprophet's desire to preserve the friendlier atmosphere that we have in Wikivoyage. I had to learn about that when I came here from Wikipedia. But I also agree with Granger's and ThunderingTyphoons' comments above. We should not assume that this sysop will start editing in Wikivoyage. We should not assume that they will use careless edit summaries if do come here. We should not assume that this behaviour will turn into abuse of sysop privileges. And we should not assume that the sysop will fail to change their behaviour if we ask them to. Ground Zero (talk) 10:52, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments, everyone. I hope no admins feel slighted that I didn't send you the copies of emails. I selected only 4 admins to send them to, with the understanding that they could send them to more admins if they so choose. The reason I did this was simply to save my hands: had I tried to send them to all admins or even all active admins, I would have risked a degree of injury. Inevitably, there was a degree of randomness in who I sent them to. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:10, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
What kind of contributor are you if you're not willing to risk a permanent repetitive strain injury for the benefit of Wikivoyage? Where's your commitment to the project? ;-) Ground Zero (talk) 18:39, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
Hah! Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:03, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
As long as we're allowed to reverse this decision in 6 or 12 months' time (if problems arise along the lines of what Vaticidalprophet said or some other reason and there is consensus to revert back) then this is definitely worth a try. We have to see how it plays out in practice rather than discuss hypotheticals and predictions. Gizza (roam) 23:14, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ I'm seeing consensus to enable global sysops. Could a suitably qualified user close this successfully, so that I can make a request to the stewards to remove Wikivoyage from the opt-out wikiset? If local policy requires that this proposal hold for a set period of time, let me know. Leaderboard (talk) 07:37, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

There's definitely a consensus. No closing is done or needed, and there's no preexisting policy on what to do with this kind of proposal except the rule of consensus. My opinion is that you don't need to wait any longer to act, but in an abundance of caution, you could wait another 24 hours or at least another 12 hours or so to see if anyone else objects. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:45, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
It's Yes Done now, by steward Martin Urbanec. Thanks for supporting this proposal. Leaderboard (talk) 09:22, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
Thanks are due to you and him. We appreciate the help. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:00, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

A bit late to the discussion but FWIW (having been an admin here and a GS/steward as well) - I don't see an urgent need as there is a sufficient base of admins, but it can't hurt. This is a medium-sized wiki and the discussion could probably have gone either way. Global sysops and stewards are generally cautioned to not do anything controversial on projects with active admins. BTW, all the other Wikivoyages have global sysops enabled. --Rschen7754 18:13, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

I started an outline on Dracula[edit]

Y'all are invited to add listings and to see whether I did some grievous injury to facts or the English language in the prose I wrote... Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:33, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

99 Vampiro - Grafo Drakulo.svg
--Ypsilon (talk) 19:37, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
Really good writing! I made some marginal copy edits. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:14, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
Thanks Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:07, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

📍 Travel destinations - a little suggestion[edit]

Over at the Hebrew Wikivoyage I've recently added a little pin point emoji (looks like this - 📍 ) next to the "Travel destinations" link in the side menu. I also added the talking bubble emoji (this one - 💬) next the "Travelers' pub" link on the side menu. I decided not to add any more emojis to the side menu as that would probably be too much.

Just thought you might be interested in considering doing the same to help direct more users to those sections of the Wikivoyage. ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 17:37, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Te map of Destinations is broken (again), so let's not direct any more users there at the moment. AlasdairW (talk) 20:30, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
It appears that all maps relying on (such as those accessible from the the upper right icon on most destination articles) are broken. I noticed a few days ago that controls (like +/- icons for zoom in/out) are missing. Maps using {{mapframe}} seem to be okay. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 20:58, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
That's weird. It works for us at the Hebrew Wikivoyage. ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 22:07, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
That appears to use {{mapframe}}. Maybe we need to change ours over here? Nelson Ricardo (talk) 23:12, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
@Andyrom75, Atsirlin, Torty3: There is an error on line 6241 of the file that is causing poimap2 to fail. I'm assuming maybe a bad article name is corrupting the file, but since it is generated on Toolforge I'm not sure how we would fix it or even how to investigate further. shows that you are all admins on Toolforge, is this something you can look at? -- Ryan • (talk) • 02:58, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
I can give someone the rights, but I won't be able to look into it myself in the next days, unfortunately. --Alexander (talk) 08:57, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Here is what ויקיג'אנקי's emojis look like on the Main Page of Hebrew Wikivoyage. Ground Zero (talk) 22:53, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Hebvoy not appearing in the list[edit]

Does anyone know why Hebrew Wikivoyage does not appear in the list of other language Wikivoyages? Are there other Wikivoyages that are not linked? Did I read about Turkish Wikivoyage recently? Ground Zero (talk) 22:10, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Here is the list of Wikivoyages, with the date created. The versions in boldface are linked: Ground Zero (talk) 22:16, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
1 2006-12-10 Deutsch de
2 2007-12-10 italiano it
3 2012-09-23 English en
4 2012-09-29 Nederlands nl
5 2012-10-03 français fr
6 2012-10-06 svenska sv
7 2012-10-18 русский ru
8 2013-01-07 español es
9 português pt
10 2013-02-06 polski pl
11 română ro
12 2013-03-21 עברית he
13 українська uk
14 2013-05-17 Ελληνικά el
15 2013-08-11 Tiếng Việt vi
16 2014-01-15 中文 zh
17 2014-10-02 فارسی fa
18 2016-11-30 suomi fi
19 2017-09-25 हिन्दी hi
20 2018-06-07 বাংলা bn
21 پښتو ps
22 2020-08-27 日本語 ja
23 2020-12-15 Esperanto eo
24 2021-01-19 Türkçe tr

Do you have Languages - "Use a compact language list, with languages relevant to you." selected in Preferences - Appearance? This may be selected by default. I recall discussing this when it was introduced, and decided it was a bad idea as the compact list did not necessarily include the language of the destination. AlasdairW (talk) 22:44, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@AlasdairW: Ah, that would be it. I don't know why Wikivoyage would decide that Bengali is relevant to me, but Hebrew isn't. The problem goes away when I change that setting. Thanks. Ground Zero (talk) 22:53, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
It changes the list based on which projects you've clicked through recently. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:34, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
It does not solve the problems for newcomers, if the compact list is the default. I got the impression you could not opt out as a project, only individually, hopefully I remember wrongly.
Is there some way you can check the defaults without resetting your own and without registering a new username? Ideally, of course, the preferences tabs would show the defaults as part of the interface. Is there a way to save your current preferences and reload them after resetting?
–LPfi (talk) 06:39, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
Using a private window, I see:
  • Deutsch
  • Español
  • Français
  • हिन्दी]]
  • Italiano
  • Português
  • Русский
  • Tiếng Việt
  • 中文
  • 14 more
Clicking on that last one brings up a list of all languages. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 08:05, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
This was discussed when it was introduced Wikivoyage:Travellers'_pub/2016#Compact_Language_Links_enabled_in_this_wiki_today. There were several objections, but it still went ahead. It looks to be a "solution looking for a problem". For most articles it isn't an issue, as the place or topic isn't covered in enough languages. AlasdairW (talk) 08:20, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
There are 200+ wikipedias, many of which have articles on some popular subjects; I'd gues it was on en-wp the iw-list was felt problematic. On sv-wp we have many regulars who can read more than 10 languages or otherwise work with many language editions and the main page and the village pump where handled as special cases. I suppose WMF saw it as an editor/reader conflict where they wanted to stand up for the readers – thus not allowing the community to opt out. –LPfi (talk) 10:29, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
I saw some of the research back in the day. If your goal is to get readers to the language they want, then CLL works better than the former long list. Readers are more likely to use the short list than to use the long list.
Of course, for the tiny number of people who can easily read more than 10 languages, or for those of us who visit a large number of wikis regardless of our language skills (e.g., global sysops, work-me), it's not always convenient, but for the average reader, it really does seem to work better. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:38, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
Yes, I do believe the research results – but they don't tell the whole picture.
In Finland it is common to study 3–4 languages in school (+your mother tongue), and Swedish is close to Norwegian Nynorsk and Bokmål, and Danish. If you happen to additionally understand some German and Dutch (which also are reasonably close), you have your ten languages. If I check the Polish wikipedia for a picture, I lose one of "my" languages. This is not in any way exceptional for a Swedish Speaking Finn with university degree, even without having an interest e.g. in Latin, Greek or Esperanto, or languages in general. And you don't need to master ten languages to get languages pushed out by checking a few Wikipedias for whatever reason. For an American who knows English, Spanish and French the limit of ten looks quite different.
Of course, many Nordic people restrict themselves to their native language and English. But our concern is not to get people to find that English – which they are aware of anyway – but to find the wealth of languages. Often the ten languages include a few truly odd ones (Romani and Jiddish, say), which means several languages that they might click are absent from the compact list. This, of course, is a concern for that tiny minority that mind losing Bokmål or Dutch from the list. But the problem is real: I usually don't get Finnish on the compact list (on projects where I haven't disabled it), even though I am bilingual and live in Finland (doesn't my babel box at Meta count?).
–LPfi (talk) 20:28, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
Apparently, most people find the wealth of languages more easily when they can type the name of their favorite language(s) into a search box than when we give them long list of names in scripts they mostly can't read, alphabetized according to a logical but not necessarily intuitive system (so that, e.g., Greek is alphabetized before Basque and Farsi).
As for why you don't get Finnish, it's supposed to give you the links for wikis you have personally visited recently, plus some other calculations. @Amire80 could probably tell you if there's an easy way to make Finnish appear more frequently. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:16, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
I might not visit Finnish frequently enough, as I visit also other languages quite often (copying domestic spelling, checking images on wikis that could have good articles etc. – and even facts in e.g. Icelandic or Portuguese, which I don't speak). Perhaps that's why I always have wikis in some odd languages among the ten. I could tell my web browser to prefer a few languages that I know better (e.g. sv,fi,en,fr,es), but that might compromise my privacy, as it could make me recognizable across devices. If WikiMedia gave my Meta babel box high priority, at least that problem would go away, but searching for a language is still very clumsy compared to scrolling the list. The somewhat confusing order is no big problem for me, as I am used to using it. –LPfi (talk) 13:21, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Yes, your country and your Babel boxes are taken into account. If you are connecting from Finland, and you have fi in your {{#babel}} box, and you are looking at a page that has a corresponding page in Finnish, and you don't see Finnish in the initial list, this may be a bug, and I want to know which page this is. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 20:31, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
@Amire80: Is also the Babel box at Meta counted? I might have been doing something odd, so don't take my word for it right now. My impression is true, but the factual circumstances might not be. Next time it happens, I'll check carefully and report back to you. –LPfi (talk) 07:09, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
When I now tried, I was not able to get Finnish to disappear. I might have been looking for Finnish in the wrong place in the list (sv-wp orders the languages by native name). –LPfi (talk) 07:33, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

What do you recommend doing with users that act like this?[edit]

Unfortunately, even though the Hebrew Wikivoyage has been around since 2013 (and I have been the main active user there all this time), so far we have not been able to form a community of multiple users working collaboratively to produce quality content, as I have been the only active user there for quite a long time (and I can only imagine how the site would look like if/when I'll stop being active). Once in a while (usually during the school vacations) we have a rise in activity from a small number of bored young students whom usually follow one or some of these patterns:

  1. They all of a sudden become VERY active, while their goals seem to initially be unclear - for instance, last summer a group of 3 young friends (I only found out later that they knew each other and were acting in cahoots) focused on making A LOT of small irrelevant changes in the "Wikivoyage:" space and various other small corrections that weren't necessary at all. After a week or two of such edits they started demanding that they would be granted admin status (voting to support this granting admin statues for each other in the Wikivoyage:Administrators section). I am quite certain that this was their what the purpose of their activity really was about all along, and I fear that they could have more easily "played the system" if they would have been persistent over time because there isn't a large enough community at Hebvoy to prevent a group of friends to try and take over by making their voices be stronger than the voices of the few whom actually do all the work. Also, they could probably just come in and take over if for instance I would be away for a while.
  2. Some of them think that the main aim at Wikivoyage is to create as many stubs about random locations around the world and let other editors clean up/expand these stubs. This becomes quite excruciating at most times because, while they spend max 3 minutes copying the basic content needed for a stub from the parallel articles from the Hebrew Wikipedia, I end up spending the next 20-30 minutes fixing up each of those articles, essentially re-writing the whole thing and adding the listings. I can imagine how this might seem even amusing to some of these editors, as if they are "putting me to work".
  3. When I try to approach them in the discussion page some aren't polite at all and aren't interested at all in working collaboratively (or understanding why we have to write the articles according to a certain template/guidelines). I can understand this one quite well as I probably would have acted in similar way when I was 11.
  4. Some of those users refuse to create original content for Wikivoyage or to translate content from the English Wikivoyage, and instead they just copy paste full text blocks from the parallel articles on the Hebrew Wikipedia - basically thinking that Wikivoyage should eventually be a clone on Wikipedia for destination articles.

Me and the other few active editors on Hebvoy have discussed this issue many times through the years and we never found a real solution beside focusing all of our time and efforts to "playing catchup" with the the very active young newbies. At times it almost feels like we need to be invested in extinguishing fires torched all around the site by an "arsonist".

One possible solution that we probably might have to implement eventually due to this ongoing concern, which have been implemented at the Hebrew Wikipedia in the past in order to deal with the same type of activity, is to have a "Draft:" user space where new editors whom persistently don't follow the guidelines could focus all their energy on writing their articles, until these articles would be good enough to be transferred to the main space by one of the admins (and those users would be blocked from creating new content in the main space until they could be trusted to have this ability).

As of now I've been very careful not to offend or block any of the newbies as the Hebrew Wikivoyage... mainly because we need more Hebrew speakers to patriciate in creating good quality content for the site.

How would you approach similar type of activity here on the English Wikivoyage? Is there a "training program" focused on building up new writers? What exactly would you write them in their discussion page in order to get them on the right direction, while still trying to be as fair and polite as possible and not "burn bridges"?

Any suggestions regarding how to approach this issue would be gladly appreciated. ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 14:44, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

The Draft: namespace, according to the people who started it, is where articles go to die. You don't want that.
For #1 (newbie admins), you could have a formal rule that candidates for adminship must have been editing for at least 6 or 12 months.
For #4 (Wikipedia clones), you could have a "speedy deletion" rule that says copies of Wikipedia articles get deleted.
For the others, have you considered not doing that? Just let the page be "broken" for a week, and see whether the newbie tries to improve it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:44, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
We'd probably block users like that here if they didn't shape up, but I can easily see where you might not have that luxury at heb.voy. WhatamIdoing's suggestions seem good to me except that I don't like the idea of keeping a page "broken" for a week, but that depends on how it's messed-up. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:53, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
I have asked users to improve stubs they have created before creating more stubs. I enjoy them to add listings, etc. But this type of user generally leaves instead, because they are not interested in creating actual travel articles. Nominating some of these stubs for deletion, or a speedy delete rule could work too. I understand you would rather to turn them into constructive contributors, but that is difficult to do. Ground Zero (talk) 20:57, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
An older discussion covers some of these issues. Pashley (talk) 01:19, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Admin tools for IPs[edit]

Please see Wikivoyage:IP Masking Engagement from one of my teammates. This will make some changes (and I am famous within the WMF for saying that "change is bad"), but I think it has some potential to make things better by requiring less technical knowledge. Imagine a world in which you don't have to copy an IP address and put it into another website to get some piece of information, and then go to another tool to get some other piece of information, because that information is just given directly to you on wiki. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:58, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Cueva de las Manos Page Translation[edit]

Hi! I'm looking to request a translation of the Spanish, German, or Italian versions of Cueva de las Manos ( into English. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, just a paragraph or two on an independent page would be nice. In fact, just creating a beginning page would be great. Is anyone interested? Thanks, Tyrone Madera (talk) 18:13, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Google Translate usually does a good enough job for a starter page. That said, I think we would consider that to be an attraction, not a destination, meaning it would not get its own travel guide in the English Wikivoyage. Powers (talk) 00:15, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Powers, So does that mean that the information on the attraction would go inside the destination page, more or less? Thanks, Tyrone Madera (talk) 19:20, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
@Tyrone Madera, it's currently listed at Patagonia (Argentina)#See and also mentioned at National Route 40 (Argentina)#Detour Cueva de las Manos, Caves#Argentina, UNESCO World Heritage List#Argentina, and El Calafate#By bus. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:48, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
The Spanish article gives a route description for going by foot. If you think the normal listing format does not give you room for describing the destination in enough detail, it is possible to create a subsection, for describing the Cueva in a few paragraphs instead of one. The Spanish article is in an odd format, so translating it directly is probably not the way to go, but one could use the information to create a suitable description. –LPfi (talk) 20:39, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
Extending the listing in the 'super-region' is probably not a good idea, so either a new article should be created for the national park, or a more nearby city perhaps? There's also the german de:Cueva de las Manos article we can use for sources... -- 06:07, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Time in Australia[edit]

In section Australia#Trading hours​ I see:

  • 09:00-17:00
  • 4PM
  • 6pm

Is there one way to specify time in Australia? If not what should the standard be for Wikivoyage articles? Something like "in one article only one standard". Or is it "do what ever you like", as is done now in the mentioned Australia article section? --FredTC (talk) 10:49, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm planning to create a new article for Australia's time. Not only is the time zones confusing but the way we write it is also confusing.
So for
  • 09:00-17:00 - North Queensland
  • 4PM - Victoria
  • 6pm - Everywhere else but NSW, S Qld and SA
  • 06:00pm - NSW, SA and South Queensland
Tbh, we're just a weird country. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:04, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
Thank you for your quick response. In Wikivoyage:Time and date formats it says Use upper case "AM" and "PM". In the case of Australia, as a traveler, I would expect to see the formatting in the "Time" section, not in a separate article. I think it could be added as a new column in the table that is there already. That column could have this information like:
  • 24-hours notation
  • AM/PM notation
  • AM/PM, locally often written as am/pm
  • 24-hours notation in the bigger cities, AM/PM in most villages
--FredTC (talk) 13:20, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
This thing's hard for Aussie's to understand as well but thanks to my mum who's been all over the country, I sort of get this. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:19, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Australian phone numbers[edit]

Hi all,

Would just like to seek clarification on Australian phone numbers. For most of my articles, I've formatted them like +61 [2 digit area code] [8 digit number], so, say, +61 03 1234 5678. I've noticed on a lot of other articles, the 0 will be removed, leaving just the single digit of the area code. This seems a bit counterintuitive to me. In almost all the businesses I see (though, granted, I have seen some that format it without the 0) the phone number starts with 03. Certainly, within Australia, if I call a number without the 0 it won't work. I get that the phone numbers are designed for international use, but given it works just as fine with the 0, should the 0 be used when formatting Australian numbers? --LivelyRatification (talk) 22:15, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

On a mobile phone, can you enter "+610312345678", and get connected? AlasdairW (talk) 22:21, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
It's not connected on my end, but I did make the number up so that's probably why. I tried calling my local KFC as a test, once without the 0 and once with. Worked with the 0 but not without. --LivelyRatification (talk) 22:25, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
The most important part of our phone number guidelines is that the numbers should be written in a way that works as such on (non-domestic) mobile phones, and as a result, when clicking on a phone number in a listing.
In most of the world, the leading zero in the area code is removed when calling from abroad or using the +... notation (there are a few exceptions). In a large country, most calls are made domestically, and thus writing out the zero makes sense, and the country code is often left out. When writing the zero together with country code, it is often in parenthesis, meaning it should be left out when using the country code. This convention makes sense locally, but it is not universally known and not what we use on Wikivoyage, and thus often confusing.
So if +31 2 1234 5678 works, then that is the format to use. It is also the format listed in Wikivoyage:Phone numbers-
–LPfi (talk) 08:01, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
Yes, if I dial +610895819463 (fake phone number), it will work but it's generally preferred as +61895819463 rather than with the 0. And to User:LivelyRatification, that's the case since we're dialling the number locally and not internationally. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:15, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
So including the "0" will work for those writing the numbers, but not for those calling from overseas? I'd suppose calls from abroad would work equally, as the part after +61 should be parsed by an Australian exchange. Anyway, including the zero is confusing as it is left out in most of the world, and both Wikivoyage:Phone numbers and Australia#Dialling codes leaves it out.
The phone number format is explained in Australia#Dialling codes, as it should. Having read it, travellers can easily transform our number format to something usable on land lines (the same system is used in most of the world, so confusing for few). The section includes discussion on the "+" notation, which is valid globally and could probably be left out.
–LPfi (talk) 08:26, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
Hope this table helps:
Example +61 not +61
0412345678 Works Will not work
491837573 Will not work (this will go to the local dialling area) Will not work
+61820395205 Works (sometimes won't work if +61 is not included) Works
+610733817204 Works, but not always Works

SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:37, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

I think the real question is resolved: we should use +61 x 123-456 without the leading zero of the area code.
But the table is confusing (including or not including +61 both horizontally and vertically). As I interpret it it makes little sense, are the +61/not +61 columns reversed? Are some of these numbers special (such as 04 the Australian-wide prefix)?
–LPfi (talk) 09:16, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
Only use 04 if it's an Aussie phone. If not, then use +614. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 09:30, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
But what does it mean that +61820395205 works without +61, sometimes also with +61? You say "will not work" for 0412345678 means "works only with Aussie phones", which is not the obvious interpretation. You say 0412345678 works with +61 (presumably as +610412345678) while +61491837573 "will go to local dialling area", is that equivalent to 12345678 from a landline? And what is the difference between +61820395205 with and without +61, and how does +61820395205 with "not +61" differ from with "+61, with +61 not included"? I am afraid the table did not help me to figure out how the scheme works. –LPfi (talk) 14:07, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
If I may, I believe the column headers refer to whether or not the call is being placed from the +61 country code, not whether the +61 is included in the number dialed. Powers (talk) 16:45, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
Yes, as i'as too lazy to type Australian mobile and vice versa. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:54, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Katzenelnbogen -- other opinions sought[edit]

I would appreciate other views on this discussion as User:Hobbitschuster and I have different perspectives on this. Thank you. Ground Zero (talk) 17:03, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

I need your help with Frankenstein[edit]

Can you assemble various parts and the divine spark to make this creature walk? Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:42, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

View new changes on Watchlist[edit]

The message "View new changes since ..." does not appear anymore on the Watchlist, since yesterday. It still appears on Wikipedia. I tried it in several browsers. --FredTC (talk) 09:59, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

It shows for me. Do you have some security extension across browsers? I haven't restarted my browser for several days, so if there is some update to the javascript I might still be running the old version. –LPfi (talk) 11:48, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Proposal for mass messaging[edit]

Hey friends. For several years, Wikivoyage:Star nominations has suffered from a lack of participation from the wider community, especially in comparison to votes for deletion or user rights nominations. This means that each article's nomination drags on for months, sometimes years, and most nominations are only successful based on the views of a tiny, unrepresentative proportion of our community.

By contrast, on the French Wikivoyage, each time a new article is proposed for Star status, MediaWiki message delivery sends a m:MassMessage to the talk page of every user on this list. The list is opt-in by default for all reasonably active users, however any user may voluntarily opt out with just a couple of clicks. The positive result is that, despite a much smaller and overall less-engaged community than English Wikivoyage, every single star nomination on fr.wikivoyage receives enough votes to reach a consensus within two weeks - yes weeks, not months or years.

Should en.wikivoyage steal this idea of a mass-messaging list, and if so should we opt in users by default? I conceive that the list should contain the user names of all active auto-patrolled users by default, and that each user may subsequently opt out of receiving the messages at any time, either by removing their name from the list, or by adding their user talk page to Category:Opted-out of message delivery (currently red-links, but works on other wikis e.g. W:Category:Wikipedians who opt out of message delivery).

Thoughts? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:15, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree that participation is sadly lacking, but I don't like the idea of "spamming" users. If your idea is implemented, it should be opt-in. And those who would choose opt in likely already have the page on their watchlist. The reason I haven't participated in the discussions is that I don't find most of the nominated articles to fall within my realm of interest. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 20:58, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
"Opt-in by default" sure sounds like "opt-out" to me. I don't favor this. For my part, I don't participate in these discussions often because it is so hard to judge whether an article should be considered a star, it requires really close reading, and there are others (for example, User:LtPowers) who are much better at noticing when details that would make an article much closer to perfect are absent or small blemishes are present. I would opt out. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:23, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
It would hardly result in "spamming" users. We get maybe five or six of these nominations at most per year. It's fine to choose to opt out, and I'm not asking people to say individually whether they would opt in or out (although somehow I knew that Ikan would opt out!), but the point of opting everyone in is to attract users who may not otherwise think about taking part to think about it. Such as users who maybe don't even take part in Pub discussions that often, let alone any other community pages.
I get that assessing star noms isn't for everyone, and participation in any part of WV is always voluntary, but when someone (and it usually is just one editor) who has put in hours and hours of time preparing an article to reach a certain level, solicits general feedback and all they get is one or two replies out of an otherwise very active community, it's embarrassing. And the result is a nomination process that's generally slower than the one undertaken by the Nobel Prize committee. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:47, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
Can't speak for the others who've put effort into a star article but I agree with Jamie's statement

"but when someone (and it usually is just one editor) who has put in hours and hours of time preparing an article to reach a certain level, solicits general feedback and all they get is one or two replies out of an otherwise very active community, it's embarrassing"

It's taken me 6 weeks to get it TD33 to that level, and it was rushed. And a lack of participation is also not very good and may be disheartening for the writer. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 05:36, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
I would also be concerned about making it opt-out, just because there are quite a number of inactive users who probably have very little interest. I agree it'd be nice if they got more attention, though. If you could narrow down the field of opt-ins to active users somehow, it might work better. Powers (talk) 00:42, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
Yes, user:LtPowers, the proposal is for active users, as stated. Usernames would be added manually (probably by me), so it wouldn't be difficult to distinguish active from inactive users.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 07:58, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
Apologies, I saw "auto-patrolled" and missed the "active" qualifier. Powers (talk) 02:48, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
I'd support such a proposal for TT's reasons. I'm not fully comfortable yet with the star process, but I'm studying it and striving to leave helpful comments even on articles I might not be "interested" in (featured content processes on any project depend on people who might not be subject-matter experts participating). Star nominations shouldn't be hanging around forever. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 23:49, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
This is definitely needed. Not only do we have lack of participations but for some of them (e.g. TD33), there's only one vote excluding myself. Lack of participation is a problem and many end up going into the Slush pile. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 01:57, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
I'm not much interested in Star nominations so I say make it opt-in, to save people like me the trouble of opting out. (As an aside, there seem to be problems with the Star nominations process. I could probably make some suggestions, but not sure how welcome they would be, given that improvements to the process would still not lead me to participate.) Nurg (talk) 04:15, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
Please give us your suggestions. I'm not going to judge you. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 04:24, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
Personally, I don't often comment on star nominations because I find it hard to evaluate the star criteria at Wikivoyage:Article status if I don't know the destination. —Granger (talk · contribs) 06:45, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
I also do not support mass messaging, other than as opt-in if there are people who think it would be useful for them personally. I do have the page on my watchlist, but like others I don't think I'm the best person to judge the articles, and seldom take the time to read an article thoroughly enough to have an opinion, when it is not about a place I have a special interest in.
I understand the concern, and I think it is not the mass messaging that makes the French nomination succeed, but a culture of participating on that page. Nothing hinders us from posting a reminder in the pub every now and then, but I suppose the key is people like me not to trust others handling the process, but taking the time a few times a year – which really isn't that plenty.
–LPfi (talk) 07:52, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
I mean, that would be nice. There are lots of processes on this site that various people could claim lack of expertise in and therefore not participate, but in general people chip in regardless of experience, to keep the site ticking over. You don't need to know a place intimately to judge its article, and in fact sometimes it helps because you ask questions that the person who wrote the article would never have thought of. Most experienced editors know what really excellent Wikivoyage articles look like, because we've written them ourselves.
Those of who you have been kind enough to comment here, thank you. It would take a fraction of the time it took you to write your comment to remove your name from the list.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:14, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
No. If anyone opts me into anything without my explicit consent, I'll be furious. I have star nominations on my watchlist; that is enough.
If you feel one is not getting enough attention, you can mention it in the pub or on the RFC page. Or message individuals who have edited the page substantially, or tag them in a comment. Pashley (talk) 08:47, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
I don't have any qualms with an opt-out system. As I was an active Wikipedian before I was an active Wikivoyager, I'm very much used to receiving numerous automated messages about everything, some of which are useful and some of which are not. It's easy to "unsubscribe" when the messages get annoying and stale. With regards to star articles, I've hardly participated in the process or with the DOTM candidates. Most of my content work involves improving bad articles to a medium level of quality (solid usable or low-end guide) rather than going further to a high-end guide or star suitable for DOTM. But I would like to turn my attention to it one day. Gizza (roam) 09:03, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
@Pashley: - Usually the one who nominates it is the one who edits it substantially. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:24, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
No. One of the drawbacks of email is that it has become too easy to send marketing mail. When suppliers has to print and pay postage on their "news" they were much more restrained and I was more likely to read what I received.
I would be ok with an annual Wikivoyage email which said what had changed in the past year, and could include a list of the star nominations, but more than twice a year would be annoying. I don't think that we should use mass mailings for this or any other single issue, but I would not object to a very occasional mass mailing to keep in touch with editors who may not have been around lately.
Emails or talk page messages to editors who have contributed to nearby destinations would be fine - telling those who have edited Southampton about Eastleigh's nomination etc. AlasdairW (talk) 17:09, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
It's not an emailing list. It's a proposal to message you all on your talk page.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:56, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
I wonder if @Pashley also thought it was an e-mail system, instead of a normal note on your regular User_talk: page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:20, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
No, I did not think that.
To me, unsolicited talk page messages would be worse than email spam because I don't have filters set up, there's no one-click delete & the admins are not likely inclined to discipline the spammer. Pashley (talk) 22:59, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
One click delete = rollback. If you ever used rollback on a message mass-sent by me, I would have removed your name from the list. However, rest assured that your name won't be going on such a list to begin with; you've made your feelings quite clear.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 06:39, 9 May 2021 (UTC)


It turns out that work-me thinks about this kind of problem all the time. Rather than telling you that you should all seriously go over to mw:Talk pages project/Notifications and look at mw:Topic:W6arauh4qaelmgpb to see the work on being able to subscribe, cross-wiki, to a single thread on a busy talk page (oh, oops, I accidentally told you anyway! ;-) ), let me tell you what this looks like at a higher level. We've got options.

  • First option: Do what we're doing now.
    • Results: Star process is dominated by a few editors. New editors don't learn that it exists, so they don't participate. Reviews are slow. Seeking help means posting here or on the RFC page, where only the "in-group" core community will see it (69 active editors for this page, 22 for the RFC page, and substantial overlap between the two). We might use words like narrow, undiscoverable, (somewhat) ineffective, and insular to describe it.
  • Second option: Always tell (almost) everyone.
    • Likely results: In this option, you don't have to take any action. When an article is nominated, all eligible active editors will get notes on their own talk pages. The process will get some participation from a larger number of editors, with a significantly greater proportion of new editors (who are likely to provide short or general comments, rather than an in-depth, line-by-line review). Reviews will be faster overall. New editors who participate will learn something about what a process can be. Seeking additional help should be unnecessary. Instead, however, we'll have to maintain the list. Making the list is easy: Special:ActiveUsers gives you the list (505 editors at the moment; about half might be excluded for making only 0 or 1 undeleted edit). If you get one of these messages and you don't want any more, then you tell the system to leave you alone. This is not difficult; it might mean putting something like w:en:Template:Nobots on your talk page. Or, if the list is short enough, we might just make a note to remove a couple of people's names manually before sending messages. We might use words like broad, discoverable, open, and welcoming to describe this.
  • Third option: Tell people they can tell you if they want to be told.
    • Likely results: Not very different from what we have now. In this option, you have to first discover that Star nominations are a thing and that you can sign up to review them. Then you have to sign up. Inertia works against us; it'll be like setting up your retirement savings accounts, which you'll get around to of these days, probably. Also, we'd have to either post messages on everyone's talk pages or run some sort of regular reminder so that people would know that the list was a thing they could sign up for, which means that even if you don't sign up, you'll be seeing notices about it, and (since there are so few star nominations per year) it might even ultimately be more work than just putting a "skip me" note for a bot on your talk page and thus getting to forget entirely about it. In practice, the people who would discover and follow this process would be the people who are already involved and the people who would respond to a one-off request for comments if it were posted on this page. We would not get newcomers or occasional contributors involved. Words like narrow and undiscoverable still apply, but it might be slightly more effective than what we've got. I'd also add complicated to the list of descriptions.

Given all of this, my recommendation is to try out option 2 for a year, and to include the "leave me alone!" directions in every message. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:58, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

For the 2nd option, the process may get some participation from a somewhat larger number of editors. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:28, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
I'd say for opt 2, when a user's account is 30 days old and has a minimum of 500 edits, they'll be automatically subscribed? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 23:50, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
You'd say that, but so far, consensus seems to be running against it. I'll try to look at some starnom articles, but it is time-consuming, and I'm not that confident in my thorough judging skills. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:08, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
In my not-inconsiderable experience, a system like this does result in more participation. Whether it produces the "correct" kind of participation is more doubtful, but, so far, every time I've sent personal invitations to 100+ active editors, I have received more responses than if I didn't send those invitations. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:23, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
Agree with you here. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 06:49, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Template:Ping should now be able to take in 15 names instead of 5.[edit]

I've just increased the capabilities of Template:Ping from 5 people to 15 people. This means that to ping more than 5 names, you'll no longer have to use two or three separate templates and you can now use one. Thanks!, SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 05:53, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Opinion requested in Talk:Places with unusual names#Australia needing it's own article?[edit]

Hi there, Please take a moment to check the proposal, as the Australia section in Places with unusual names is getting too long, and it's only 50% complete. Thanks, and enjoy mothers day, for those celebrating it. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 07:54, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

WV:TP shortcut[edit]

This shortcut currently redirects here, to the Travellers' pub, however I think it could also redirect to WV:Talk pages. Which one do you think is best? 16:26, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I prefer having it here. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:45, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
+1 -- 20:04, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
Here is better SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 21:21, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Surely this talk page etiquette should be reviewed.[edit]

Obviously this etiquette (below) should be reviewed:
"And, forgive and forget when someone changes a nasty comment to something more civil and productive."

Obviously, this rule doesn't work, and really, only puts more stress and pressure on someone. A prime example of this is, User:Antandrus - been attacked for 16 years, obviously, someone shouldn't deserve this for reverting Ljupco's attacks or simply edit a wiki. While I usually just laugh at GRP's attacks towards me (not funny towards others), but for me, once it gets 15 years, it does get annoying. So seriously, while one offs can be forgiven, it being continuous is not.

Thanks, SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 06:21, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't understand what you're suggesting. The quoted guideline at Wikivoyage:Using talk pages is not about someone making a nasty comment and leaving it. It's about someone making an intemperate comment in the heat of the moment, and then regretting it and changing it to something more civil. Nurg (talk) 07:10, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Oh i see. Apologies SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 07:17, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Deleting or redirecting cities without attractions or activities?[edit]

I am wondering whether city articles without attractions or activities should be deleted or redirected to a more populous city. I unilaterally redirected Kalwa to Thane since Kalwa don't have any attractions or activities listed under "See" or "Do" respectively. However, the edit was since been reverted. --Soumya-8974 (he) (talk • contribs) 08:49, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I noticed that SHB2000 has created a discussion at Talk:Kalwa whether Kalwa should be merged to Thane. --Soumya-8974 (he) (talk • contribs) 08:53, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
I reverted your edit because you made some unilateral changes, without discussing on the article's talk page. If there's consensus then yes, it may - but first seek consensus. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:51, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Actually, I have been stuck with Wikipedia for three years without having major edits in Wikivoyage. Therefore, I am not well aware about the editorial conduct of this project. Anyway, I understand that virtually everything requires consensus in Wikivoyage. --Soumya-8974 (he) (talk • contribs) 08:59, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Everything requires consensus on all Wikimedia Projects. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 09:03, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
I have unilaterally redirected some stub articles where there is little reason to believe that the article can be developed into something useful for travellers. I don't think that active Wikipedia editors should have their work directed by a random passer-by who creates an empty stub. And I think the empty stub are frustrating to readers. Someone who clicks on a link from Wikipedia and finds a stub article on Wikivoyage is less likely to bother with Wikivoyage again.
I think redirects from articles with no information are not contentious, and don't need discussion. (In these cases, I leave the existing structure in the articles but use "<!-- text -->" to comment it out.)
In this case, there was a fair bit of text in the article that User:Soumya-8974 redirected, so I think that User:SHB2000's approach of making the article useful by finding some points on interest was the better one. Ground Zero (talk) 11:01, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
I've also done this, but this had a fair bit of text in the understand and get in bit, so this needs discussion SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:10, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
An older discussion covers some of these issues. Pashley (talk) 11:18, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
these aren't empty, it has information in the understand and the get in section SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:21, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
That's an interesting discussion, Pashley, but much of it deals with page creation vandalism and with the delete/redirect debate. I think we're pretty settled on "don't delete real places". I would be interested to know what people think about Uruma, created a week ago. I will contact the creator to ask if they are going to add anything, but as it stands, it is of no use to a traveller, who would be better off with a redirect to Okinawa Island until someone decides to create an article about this place. Ground Zero (talk) 11:48, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
we did delete the french teachers unused articles, even though they were real places SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:55, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Regardless, you don't have to build a consensus for uncontroversial edits. Some understanding of whether a an edit is controversial is needed before doing massive changes, such as redirecting tens of articles, for an isolated one there is more trouble participating in the discussion than just reverting the controversial edit with a suitable comment. We have the Plunge forward guideline, just as Wikipedia has Be brave; Be brave–revert–discuss is good practice. –LPfi (talk) 14:26, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I tend to trust Soumya-8974's local knowledge and defer to him on these kinds of matters, but Soumya-8974, I think that in situations that seem unlikely to be controversial, you can smooth out any ruffled feathers more effectively by posting on the relevant article's talk page, stating why you redirected it and that you thought this wouldn't be controversial but that if anyone disagreed, they could revert the redirect and start a discussion about it in that thread. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:17, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Soumya-8974's reasoning is that there weren't any see or do. Obviously looking at google maps shows that there are SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 21:39, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
But none of them in See or Do. Whether an outline article should stay there as such or wait as a redirect (perhaps with content commented out as suggested above – if there is valuable content the solution sounds better than just redirecting) is a judgement call. Is this a place likely to attract visitors, who'd benefit from the article as is and who might add the attractions, or is it better to have it as redirect not to disappoint readers until somebody decides to make the article "usable" (starting by uncommenting the hidden outline)? –LPfi (talk) 09:22, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
For clarity, Wikivoyage:Plunge forward is a policy here, and if you think that an edit is uncontroversial, then we don't expect you to start a discussion first. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:21, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Anime and manga in Japan: Inclusion Criteria for anime pilgrimages[edit]

@Avi0012: recently added some new anime franchises at Anime and manga in Japan#Anime pilgrimages, in which I doubt whether they are sufficiently notable. Certainly we also don't want crappy works like Kemono Friends Season 2 (a notoriously bad anime series) to be included, so I'd like to start for a discussion on the inclusion criteria for the article of Anime and manga in Japan, regards.廣九直通車 (talk) 12:39, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

For me to have an opinion, there needs to be some more information on them, probably in the still missing Understand section. The lead of Anime pilgrimages now just states "Anime pilgrimages (聖地巡礼, Seichi-junrei) are trips to locations that became the models for manga and anime." I'd like to know what kind of destinations really attract "pilgrimages". Any place that features in any book or film? –LPfi (talk) 09:46, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
To be honest, I'm not the most fanatical anime fan. In general, destinations which serves as the main stage of ACGN works are most likely to become pilgrimage sites, although there should also be exceptions. Usually comments about a location on Google Map should give sufficient information about the popularity of these destinations.廣九直通車 (talk) 11:55, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Why all the Category hate?[edit]

So, it seems that way back when, somebody decided and everyone else went along with a "no categories (outside of templates)" policy. Is it time to revisit this policy? Many non-destination articles do relate to a destination. Why not have Shopping in Japan in Category:Japan or Portuguese cuisine in Category:Portugal? Would this be such a bad thing? Nelson Ricardo (talk) 07:50, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

tbh, that'll just make things more cleaner. And for provinces, states and territories, they could also have their own category (e.g. Category:Quebec or Category:New South Wales.) But the policy chooses to not do so. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 07:53, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
Well, actually, Wikivoyage uses categories extensively. We have a breadcrumb hierarchy, which relies entirely on categories and subcategories. Every destination article in Japan and Portugal should be under their respective country's categories - check them, and they should be. But Shopping in Japan is under Category:Shopping, and Portuguese Cuisine is under Category:Food and drink, because they're travel topics, not destination articles. The main difference between Wikivoyage and other wikis is pages should only be in one immediate category, presumably to keep the breadcrumb trail clear.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:02, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
(And you'll see that all the categories you're both saying we should have bluelink and are populated by pages and subcategories).ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:06, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
The breadcrumb trail is controlled by Template:IsPartOf. Categories outside that template do not affect the breadcrumbs. I see little downside to categorization, but I realize that many Wikivoyagers are opposed to them. I'm not sure I buy the arguments against. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 08:19, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
I didn't mean that the categories don't exist. I meant that we're not allowed to add articles to them. Unless I am mistaken on this point. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 08:26, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
For categories to be useful, they have to be applied consistently, at least inside a specific scope. Thus there would be a huge project adding the non-breadcrumb categories. It is possible that the categories can be added by bot, but then it is even more important to have clear criteria on what pages should go in what categories.
At Wikipedia and Commons, many category trees are added and pages recategorised without any consensus, just because some editor who likes working with the category tree had a whim. Cleaning up inconsistent or non-sensible category trees requires real hours of work from the rest of the community. That work is worthwhile as the categories provide real value, on Wikipedia mostly for insiders, on Commons for all users.
I am not against changing the category policy in Wikivoyage, but I'd like to see a well thought out plan on how they should be used, how the adding of categories should be carried out, and a convincing argument about them being real value. It would probably be best to first tell what use they will be, and if the reasoning seems to get support, then create a project page, and after some time of working with that write a formal proposal.
I suppose convincing people the project is worthwhile is hard enough that you need solid arguments. Until you have them, there is probably little use "revisiting the policy". Perhaps you have them already?
–LPfi (talk) 09:40, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
Thank you for sharing your insights. It sounds like resolution would take more effort and bother than I'm willing to undertake at this time, so I'll just push it onto the back burner for now. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 03:01, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
Template:PartOfTopic does allow multiple parents and therefore an article can appear in multiple categories. The first one mentioned will be where it is breadcrumbed to. For example, Khmer Empire has "{{PartOfTopic|Historical travel|Southeast Asia}}". You will see the article appear both in Category:Historical travel and Category:Topics in Southeast Asia. Shopping in Japan similarly is both in Category:Shopping and Category:Topics in Japan. At the moment for Portuguese cuisine, there is no Category:Topics in Portugal but there is Category:Topics in Europe. You can add that or create a new Topics in Portugal category in addition to Category:Food and drink which is the primary category for Portuguese cuisine. Note that unlike travel topics, destination articles only have a single category/breadcrumb (they use the IsPartOf template instead of PartofTopic). Gizza (roam) 03:29, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
Is/should this be reflected in the documentation? We have at least Template:PartOfTopic/doc, Wikivoyage:Breadcrumb navigation, Wikivoyage:Travel topic article template and MediaWiki:Newarticletext (where travel topics could be added). –LPfi (talk) 11:04, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
This is mentioned in the /doc, reached from the breadcrumb navigation page. I suppose it should be added to the travel topic article template. We try to keep the article templates simple, but we don't have a Wikivoyage:Travel topics. –LPfi (talk) 11:10, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
Thank you, Gizza and LPfi! This is useful information. I didn't realize the template could take multiple parameters. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 20:15, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Domestic phone numbers with foreign phone[edit]

I asked a few years back at Talk:Mobile phones#Phone numbers. Now the question popped up again in Talk:Australia#Phone number format:

There seems to be no section about phone numbers. The issue can be somewhat confusing, as numbers are often found in domestic form, and many enter phone numbers in domestic form when not travelling. Some discussion would be helpful.
Under what circumstances is a number without international prefix (+code) treated as referencing that number in the home country of the SIM, and when as one in the local operator's country? Many numbers are unreachable from abroad, are they reachable from roaming phones?
The issue popped up for Norwegian emergency numbers. 112 is treated as a special case by the phone and by the network (at least GSM and successors), but what about 113 & al, and service numbers such as 08505? And what about 911, 999, 111 & co if recognized by the phone but possibly in conflicting use locally?
--LPfi (talk) 08:45, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

LivelyRatification wrote in Talk:Australia:

"In most cases, you simply don't have to call these listings overseas. Maybe for booking accomodation, but [...]. My personal preference would be to format numbers as you see them in Australia, +61 XX XXXX XXXX. If we must keep it internationalised, [...]"

So does anybody know the standard or have experience from around the world? If you call 02 1234 5678 from Queensland with a SIM from France, does it get answered in New South Wales or in Brittany? Does whether you have the number saved in your phone (without prefix) matter? Are special numbers such as 113 in Norway guaranteed to work as expected with a foreign SIM? What about the 0800 toll-free numbers in many countries?

–LPfi (talk) 10:38, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

My experience in Thailand (but already a few years ago): Calling 02 123 4567 (no country code) would connect me to a wired phone in Bangkok. But my Dutch phone company had some extra information that said: "When in Thailand, make shure you are connected to Thai phone company X, when connected to another Thai phone company than X the call will be more expensive". So if there is a kind of business arrangement between both companies, you get the best price by selecting the advised connection from the available connections. In another country it could be possible that you cannot make any call unless you connect to the right phone company, because without a business arrangement with your own phone company your call cannot be charged to you own phone company. --FredTC (talk) 11:56, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
I see two possibilities for that advice: either the Dutch company has roaming agreements with different companies, with different terms, or the Thai companies have different policies/agreements with the landline company, and letting that spill over on the foreign roaming customers. I'd suppose there are international frameworks for the roaming agreements, and those would influence what customers should expect. Does anyone know? –LPfi (talk) 07:48, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Greyhound bus shutting down its Canadian operations[edit]

Another COVID-19 victim. Greyhound announced today that it will close all its Canadian bus routes. If you come across any Canadian articles that mention Greyhound (with the exception of 5 routes that originate from the US), please remove them. OhanaUnitedTalk page 17:49, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I had a look around, and I didn't see any obvious ones left. Thanks for this note, so we can keep an eye out. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:28, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
That's not good. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 06:21, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Merge Cold War and Cold War Europe[edit]

Given that both articles are quite short, I was wondering if we should merge Cold War Europe in the Cold War article. After all, the Cold War was in many ways a global conflict, and you could in a sense see the Korean War and Vietnam War as an offshoot of the Cold War. This merger would also adequately allow us to cover things like the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Sino-Soviet Split and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, which were very much a part of the Cold War. The dog2 (talk) 18:09, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Cold War Europe is a usable article, and I see no problems with its size. If the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the conflicts in Africa, Latin America, Middle East and the war in Afghanistan are included and covered adequately, its size will become unwieldy. Why cannot these other conflicts be covered in Cold War, making it grow to more than a stub? –LPfi (talk) 18:50, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
Only the first two paragraphs in Cold War Europe are relevant for the other continents. The Understand section would have to be much developed, probably making the article structure convoluted. Groups trained and armed by CIA and Cuba fighting in Africa, Iraq getting weapons in turns from the USA and the Soviet Union, these are things that did not happen in Europe, although we were aware of them, some more than others. –LPfi (talk) 19:12, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Weird listing numbers[edit]

I recently unhid some listings at the bottom of the Science tourism article, and they are all numbered 99. Is there a limit that stops listing numbers from going higher than this? 18:57, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes. The main solutions are to split the listings into more than one color (which is what we did, for instance, in United States National Monuments) or split the article. —Granger (talk · contribs) 19:15, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
I noticed this phenomenon when I was reading Interstate 5. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 20:17, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
The listing template can't handle 3 digit numbers SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 21:32, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Assigning a code to each barncompass[edit]

I was just wondering if I should add a code containing 2-4 letters. l to each barncompass I create. This way, it's less typing, and the use of slangs (e.g. Kiwi) are close to zero. I've done this to Australian State ones (e.g. BCNSW or BCSA). While there may be duplicates like SA meaning South Australia or South Africa (which can be RSA). This plan doesn't include the original one and Vat's continent barncompasses which can be left alone. Should I do this, or is it too confusing? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 05:48, 15 May 2021 (UTC)